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OfflineProject
Ride the Spiral


Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 1,429
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #16527114 - 07/13/12 06:28 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
What about when you have fruitings of the same strain using different sub and one harvest blues more than the other?




If it came from a MS syringe then you may as well disregard the name of the strain you thought you had.  A single MS syringe may give rise to numerous strains...  Unless it's something like PE, or something similar, strain names on an MS syringe are arbitrary

Consider a MS syringe a melting pot of spore genetics.

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OfflineMrBreakingBad
Learn'n from the masters
Male


Registered: 06/29/12
Posts: 172
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: Treefeeler]
    #16527167 - 07/13/12 06:39 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Treefeeler said:
Quote:

reinfect said:
Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
So I'm wondering what could make these stain without being touched





you cutting it open is making it stain.

did you know that your blood is blue? and when it's oxygenated it turns red?

but you've never seen blue blood.




You're joking right? I'm not trying to have attitude but blood never turns blue.  If you were to vacuum-extract deoxygenated blood it would still be a very deep red. The blue we see in our veins is a color distortion caused by our skin. Again, sorry if you were being sarcastic.




The color shift is from a bright red (characteristic of highly oxygenated blood) to a deep maroon (blood that's depleted of oxygen).  When the central heme group within the hemoglobin protein complex shifts it's charge, it induces a change in the type of light wavelengths reflected.  No blue, but a color shift non the less.

I was always under the impression that psilocybin is dephosphorylated into psilocin inside of the stomach.  But a shroomery member (albeit without listing a source) said this is false, and that it actually occurs in the liver.  I asked for some follow up information, never got it, so the jury is still out. 
I'm personally still of the opinion that it occurs in the stomach, as dephosphorylation doesn't necessarily need to be enzyme mediated, since the oxygen bound to the indole can be protonated directly and shed it's phosphate.  This is supported by the success of lemon tek.




I can't vouch for where it happens, but I can say that an enzyme is required for dephosphorylation. So, I think it highly unlikely, probably impossible, for that process to happen in the stomach.


--------------------

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OfflineTreefeeler
Skill Collector


Registered: 02/13/11
Posts: 889
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: MrBreakingBad]
    #16527896 - 07/13/12 09:33 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

It was speculated before but dry conditions (either loss of water in the substrate because you're on the 3rd/4th flush, or lack of humidity) can cause bluing.  If you're running two different substrates maybe one is more effective at retaining water than the other. 
I know on my FIRST attempt I got lots of stunted mushies and aborts because the humidity was nowhere near what it should have been, they were all very blue.


--------------------


With the exception of grammatical corrections, everything I say is completely false and without foundation.

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Offlinek00laid
NEMO
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 8 months, 2 days
Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: MrBreakingBad]
    #16528336 - 07/13/12 11:33 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Treefeeler said:
This is supported by the success of lemon tek.





im so positive that the lemon tek has NOTHING to do with dephosphorylated alkaloids.

acids help to break down the mushroom chitin. allowing for faster absorption.


--------------------
AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!

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OfflineMrBreakingBad
Learn'n from the masters
Male


Registered: 06/29/12
Posts: 172
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: k00laid]
    #16530562 - 07/14/12 02:02 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

Treefeeler said:
This is supported by the success of lemon tek.





im so positive that the lemon tek has NOTHING to do with dephosphorylated alkaloids.

acids help to break down the mushroom chitin. allowing for faster absorption.



QFT


--------------------

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OfflineProject
Ride the Spiral


Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 1,429
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #16530629 - 07/14/12 02:17 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
What about when you have fruitings of the same strain using different sub and one harvest blues more than the other?




With a MS syringe, you're not just getting one specific strain.  Therefore you're probably looking at different strains.  But they're still cubensis, so it doesn't really matter all too much.

Like I said, the name that was on your syringe when you ordered it was arbitrary.  Yeah, there are some exceptions, like PE and all the other PE-like strains.  I've even seen B+ from an MS syringe give larger fruits than average, but compared to my other tubs (that weren't labeled B+), the end weights were all similar anyway.  But for the most part, strain names are arbitrary.

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OfflineIndigo-Child
Stranger
Registered: 10/04/10
Posts: 40
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: Project]
    #16531047 - 07/14/12 04:10 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I just skimmed through this, someone may have brought this up, it might not be relevant, and it is certainly off topic, but...

Although I have heard that the bluing is caused by psilocin oxidation, I'm quite sure this isn't what causes the bruising. Extraction of the goodies via EtOH/H2O (80/20 seems about right) 48h soxhlet yields a remarkably beautiful crystalline substance (I wish my camera could do these justice), said crystalline substance does not turn dark blue on standing (and certainly not after handling), but rather an orangish and finally reddish color (weeks later, the stuff is not as unstable as people seem to think), similar to the oxidation products of other tryptamines I've encountered. Refluxing a small amount of this product in 30% H2O2 (effectively oxidizing the product fully) still does not push it past this dark red color. Oxidation of psilocin is certainly NOT responsible for the discoloration upon handling.

Also, using fresh fruits/mycellium that have been blended/food processed (talk about bruising, this turns the whole mass black) before extraction in the soxhlet remain black after the extraction and the solvent takes on very little color. Clearly whatever causes the bluing is too non-polar to be extracted using this method. A mixture of an alcohol and water would easily remove the oxidation product of any amine/zwit. Not too surprisingly, soxhleting while using anhy. Et2O pulls out a ton of dark coloring, distilling the ether away yields a dark goo that STINKS of....well..."mushrooms in general" (its like mushroom concentrate0.

Lastly, many non psychoactive mushrooms also bruise a similar color (boletes come immediately to mind). The indoles aren't the only compounds found in hallucinogenic fungus. I can tell you that after spending enough time around chemicals, you can easily recognize something very "synthetic" smelling in the mushroom concentrate (and mushrooms in general after you know what you are sniffing for), that musky smell is indicative of phenolic compounds (many of which are brilliantly colored, BTW). I suspect the bruising is caused by something like this...Hope this clears some things up.


P.S. As far as lemon juice goes, I'd wager that psilocybin could easily be converted to psilocin with a strong enough acid or base (hydrolysis). Not sure that concentrated citric acid has a low enough pKa to do this quickly let alone lemon juice , but it may have some effect on conversion (especially if heat is added).



Tony.

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