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 just me
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 Re: Logical Evidence for Existence.  [Re: teknix]
#16488170 - 07/06/12 02:43 AM (11 months, 8 days ago) |
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all animals react funny to mirrors 
=
all animals are aware
they just dont have a need to vocalize it to our understanding
because they already have it worked out
so simple to be an animal
carry on. avoid man who lost their way. procreate. wait for death/rebirth
simple as fuck
we complicate our existences
not sayin be an animal
and not sayin be only your spirit
be your spirit animal
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-pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs-
"The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."
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Cactilove
Controversial Mystic
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 Re: Logical Evidence for Existence. [Re: just me]
#16489811 - 07/06/12 01:38 PM (11 months, 7 days ago) |
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 Word
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I don't nor ever will know shit, stop acting like I do!
Stop claiming I have magic powers!
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 teknix
ÐøøÐ
Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 8,122
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Re: Logical Evidence for Existence. [Re: Cactilove]
#16490781 - 07/06/12 05:14 PM (11 months, 7 days ago) |
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Hate to be the bearer of bad news but . . . .
Awareness =/= self-awareness.
The dog and cat do not know it is them they are looking at in the mirror.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
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Re: Logical Evidence for Existence. [Re: teknix]
#16491054 - 07/06/12 06:26 PM (11 months, 7 days ago) |
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That only shows that they lack an understanding of mirrors. I understand the mirror test is used on baby humans, but does it really prove anything?
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teknix
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Re: Logical Evidence for Existence. [Re: Sleepwalker]
#16491181 - 07/06/12 06:52 PM (11 months, 7 days ago) |
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Not in and of itself, yet it is not evidence for self-awareness in cats and dogs but it is for dolphins and elephants, because there isn't any evidence for cats and dogs being self-aware . . . ever . . .
Cats and dogs apparently don't have a language to think with.
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Cactilove
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Re: Logical Evidence for Existence. [Re: teknix]
#16491628 - 07/06/12 08:25 PM (11 months, 7 days ago) |
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Lucky bastards
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I don't nor ever will know shit, stop acting like I do!
Stop claiming I have magic powers!
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 4,239
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Re: Logical Evidence for Existence. [Re: teknix]
#16493993 - 07/07/12 07:56 AM (11 months, 6 days ago) |
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It seems to me that dogs and cats can experience embarrassment or maybe shame. Those emotions seem to require some level of self-awareness, although I could easily be projecting.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
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Posts: 4,239
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Re: Logical Evidence for Existence. [Re: Sleepwalker]
#16493996 - 07/07/12 07:57 AM (11 months, 6 days ago) |
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and don't you ever think without concrete language? I do all the time and I'm quite self-aware during it. Maybe that self wouldn't exist without the linguistic mind in the first place, I don't know.
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just me
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Re: Logical Evidence for Existence. [Re: Sleepwalker]
#16497536 - 07/08/12 01:56 AM (11 months, 6 days ago) |
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if i videotaped my dogs for one day
youd be like
damn
them some self aware dogs
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-pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs-
"The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."
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Cactilove
Controversial Mystic
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Re: Logical Evidence for Existence. [Re: just me]
#16497675 - 07/08/12 02:38 AM (11 months, 6 days ago) |
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What do they do that show they are self aware?
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I don't nor ever will know shit, stop acting like I do!
Stop claiming I have magic powers!
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just me
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Re: Logical Evidence for Existence. [Re: Cactilove]
#16498682 - 07/08/12 11:42 AM (11 months, 5 days ago) |
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im not aware enough to vocalize it
just like them
but my awareness believes its awareness
of their awareness
of our oneness
my dogs are brilliant
they are completely self aware/aware
they recognize their 50 nicknames over any of the other dogs 50 other nicknames
they know the boundaries of their land
they sing/talk all day long out of enjoyment
they get nervous and scared if i come home and theres a mess from them
even before i see it. even before i say "WHAT THE FUCKKKKKKKKK?" i sense them saying "we fucked up, we couldnt not"
i know it all boils down to my dogs and my imagination
but my dogs and i are aware/self aware
as the day progresses, now that i remember im looking for evidence
ill continue to tell you about my awesome dogs
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-pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs-
"The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 4,239
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Re: Logical Evidence for Existence. [Re: just me]
#16498998 - 07/08/12 12:49 PM (11 months, 5 days ago) |
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I suppose some of the apparent emotions and actions of dogs could be "pack awareness" rather than "self", being that they come from wolves and have a long history of being involved with humanity in a deep way.
That is, maybe they have a sense of self insomuch as they can understand how their actions will cause reactions by their pack members and vice versa. Not enough to sit in front of a mirror and do their makeup.
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just me
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Re: Logical Evidence for Existence. [Re: Sleepwalker]
#16499079 - 07/08/12 01:12 PM (11 months, 5 days ago) |
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so bcuz a dog is not vain
it is not self aware?
the dog knows its a dog
knows thats a car
knows youre a human
knows the order that it sees in front of it
i dont know what proof you need other than sustaining life, you need for something to
TELL you its self aware
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-pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs-
"The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
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Posts: 4,239
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Re: Logical Evidence for Existence. [Re: just me]
#16499086 - 07/08/12 01:14 PM (11 months, 5 days ago) |
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I do believe dogs have a sense of self. I don't believe it is anything close to a human awareness.
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just me
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Re: Logical Evidence for Existence. [Re: Sleepwalker]
#16499299 - 07/08/12 02:05 PM (11 months, 5 days ago) |
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YES!
meaning we are supreme beings on this earth
with the power to create the order for all other living things on it
so we can either drive them to hate us
or love them to serve us
oneness in awareness
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-pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs-
"The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."
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teknix
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Posts: 8,122
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Re: Logical Evidence for Existence. [Re: just me]
#16500140 - 07/08/12 08:41 PM (11 months, 5 days ago) |
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Do you guys really have any evidence of a dog's capability beyond plain awareness? All I have seen is assumptions and opinions about it.
Sure dogs are aware of cause and effects and their environment and have some memory of past events, I don't see much else, and nothing that could lead one to conclude self-awareness.
The dog comes when you call because it thinks your going to give it food or water or something. Food and water is a basic need of a dog and that's how it can get this need met. Try to train a dog without any "reward" see what happens.
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Rahz
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Re: Logical Evidence for Existence. [Re: teknix]
#16500757 - 07/08/12 10:35 PM (11 months, 5 days ago) |
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Dogs may seem totally unaware but I think to be fair we should hold them to no more scrutiny than we do ourselves.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."
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teknix
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Re: Logical Evidence for Existence. [Re: Rahz]
#16500892 - 07/08/12 11:05 PM (11 months, 5 days ago) |
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I'm not saying they are unaware, they are just unable to question existence, or know they are existing in any manner. They are doing what they are programmed to, that's it.
You can make getting food as complicated as you want, but in the end, that is all it is.
Dogs are programmable like a computer. (like some people)
Edited by teknix (07/08/12 11:17 PM)
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Rahz
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Re: Logical Evidence for Existence. [Re: teknix]
#16501353 - 07/09/12 12:11 AM (11 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
they are just unable to question existence, or know they are existing in any manner.
I'm not so sure and am unwilling to speak for all dogs. Supposing you're right, I could question the value in the propensity for questioning ones existence. Dogs don't have a penchant for convincing other dogs they are self aware and don't swindle others out of their labor with promises of enhanced self awareness.
Is there a self?
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."
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teknix
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Posts: 8,122
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Re: Logical Evidence for Existence. [Re: Rahz]
#16502357 - 07/09/12 04:34 AM (11 months, 5 days ago) |
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You tell me.
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