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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,381
Last seen: 2 hours, 24 minutes
the myth of mental illness * 2
    #16454508 - 06/29/12 04:53 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

the idea that someone can suffer from a mental illness is pure fabrication. take the example of depression. there is no way of knowing from a brain scan whether someone has depression. this is not a disease. it is a judgment call. people who are deemed gloomy or themselves feel that they are not having fun, seek chemical treatment for their imagined disease. of course they are going to feel better. drugs often make people feel better whether they are stigmatized by labels or not. imo we often forget that life can be difficult, but just because someone does not enjoy life as much as is expected does not make them sick.

there are places in the world where schizophrenia does not exist. if a person labeled schizophrenic went to live there he/she would no longer have schizophrenia. if a person has cancer and they go to to live with another culture they still have cancer. this is because cancer is a real disease. it takes two people to have schizophrenia (a fake disease) but only one person to have cancer (a real disease). to label someone as schizophrenic is akin to claiming their soul has been lost or that they are possessed by spirits.

in our modern western society anything that is deemed deviant (gambling, drug use, too much sex, too little sex etc) is considered a disease and almost anything that is pleasurable is considered a treatment (sex therapy, drug therapy, pet therapy, talking therapy etc). we currently live in a state run medico-religious culture where punishing people for the crimes they have commited is out of favor because poverty is a disease. poverty is not a disease just as being rich is not a treatment. it is a social judgment.

psychiatry is the modern religion where what used to be called sin is now refered to as mental illness. "Ethics: obsolete; superseded by the diagnosis and treatment of disease." - Thomas Szasz


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Edited by blingbling (06/29/12 04:59 AM)


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Registered: 11/04/10
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: blingbling]
    #16454557 - 06/29/12 05:16 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

while i do agree that there is an over midicaliazation of everything right now, i dont completely agree with the idea that all mental illness is fabricated. to use your example of depression, there can be physical causes of this, for instance a measured deficiency in the thyroid gland leads to depression.


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,381
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: psyconaught]
    #16454583 - 06/29/12 05:28 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

measured deficiency in the thyroid gland leads to depression

is this true in all cases or are there many people with thyroid deficiencies that live perfectly happy lives? imo biological explanations simply fail to explain the prevalence of the so called mental illnesses. they are first and foremost social. biology effects people, this i do not deny. but without another individual present to compare the person with a thyroid deficiency with there can be no mental illness.

imo depression is not a thyroid deficiency, depression is an expression of lifes difficulties that takes the form a psuedo-medical condition because they are the only explanations legitimized by the dominant culture.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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Offlineusulpsychonaut
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Registered: 05/13/08
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Loc: Northland, New Zealand. Flag
Last seen: 12 days, 19 hours
Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: psyconaught]
    #16454594 - 06/29/12 05:33 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I'm non conformist because I cannot conform, welfare comes in handy. Perhaps I could just regard myself as dependent rather than insane. Capable people who function well in society don't seem to be sane, just they can function. What is sane about handing out expensive anti-depressants/psychotics that don't work in such large quantities? Nothing, most of these psychiatrists should be put down.


--------------------
Deeply immersed in shallow culture. Multiculturalism is a country club that excludes white trash. Here for the small talk.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: blingbling]
    #16454619 - 06/29/12 05:51 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
measured deficiency in the thyroid gland leads to depression

is this true in all cases or are there many people with thyroid deficiencies that live perfectly happy lives? imo biological explanations simply fail to explain the prevalence of the so called mental illnesses. they are first and foremost social. biology effects people, this i do not deny. but without another individual present to compare the person with a thyroid deficiency with there can be no mental illness.

imo depression is not a thyroid deficiency, depression is an expression of lifes difficulties that takes the form a psuedo-medical condition because they are the only explanations legitimized by the dominant culture.



i cannot say for sure whether or not all cases of thyroid deficiany cause depression, but even if they dont that doesnt negate the fact that they are linked, now im not saying all cases of depresion are real and are caused my a physiological reason. in fact i think only a very small percentage of depression cases are actually real. but to call all forms of mentall illness fake is sort of living in denial. with multiple personality disorder you can actually see a marked difference in mri brain scans while the personalities are switched


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


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OfflineEllis Dee
wizard
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: blingbling] * 3
    #16454718 - 06/29/12 07:24 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I'm pretty sure hearing voices in your head torment you and not being able to tell reality from a dream isn't mentally healthy. So what do you call it?

:dumbass:


--------------------


"Imagination rules the world."
Napoleon Bonaparte


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OfflineMorphinTime
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: Ellis Dee] * 2
    #16454851 - 06/29/12 09:12 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rail_Gun said:
I'm pretty sure hearing voices in your head torment you and not being able to tell reality from a dream isn't mentally healthy. So what do you call it?

:dumbass:




Apparently OP calls it a myth :failboat:


--------------------


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,381
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #16454887 - 06/29/12 09:32 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rail_Gun said:
I'm pretty sure hearing voices in your head torment you and not being able to tell reality from a dream isn't mentally healthy. So what do you call it?

:dumbass:




a problem dealing with life, which is fundamentally different to a disease.

"If you talk to God, you are praying; If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia. If the dead talk to you, you are a spiritualist; If you talk to the dead, you are a schizophrenic" - Thomas Szasz

spiritualists hear voices all the time but we don't lock them up, put them on drugs, give them shock therapy or give them lobotomies! the only difference between the spiritualist and the schizophrenic is the the schizophrenic has been labeled a nuisance and therefor must be "treated".


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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OfflineEllis Dee
wizard
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Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 11,524
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: blingbling]
    #16454897 - 06/29/12 09:40 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Remembering back to my Introductory psych class... Schizophrenia can be definitively diagnosed through autopsy. There is a certain membrane in the brain that is thinner than in a normal brain. This is identical to bipolar disorder in anatomy. An autopsy cannot distinguish between schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. It seems like an organic abnormality, just like a heart valve defect. It's not the patient's fault.

And I don't think spiritualists really hear voices. That's the oldest scam in the book. It exploits gullible suckers from their money. lol


--------------------


"Imagination rules the world."
Napoleon Bonaparte


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: blingbling] * 1
    #16454915 - 06/29/12 09:51 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

only very partly approaching a point,
now you have to refocus on the actuality of mental illness.

I am stepping around outright brain damage and mental illnesses that may result from that. (such as being unable to remember things to the point that the pain and embarrassment is unbearable. or not knowing who you were yesterday or last year. etc.)

the mental illnesses that you decry are habit ingrained illnesses, not unlike the illnesses of smoking and addiction. (-medical help may be needed to break free from illnesses like this-)

there are personality woundings that need care and often long term therapy after childhood brutalization or neglect. The tragically painful coping habits that need to be unravelled may have been repeated thousands and even millions of times.

the pain and suffering from these mental afflictions can be more severe than childbirth and kidneystones. You must allow that there really is mental illness ranging from severity that is ultra extreme, to merely equivalent to digestive discomfort.

you may have been exposed to too many alka-seltzer patients asking for morphine.

aside from that, there are myths in the domain of psychiatry, and these are mostly from unsuitable descriptions and poor understanding of the workings of the mind. all the same, we see treatments because one cannot just walk away.


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,381
Last seen: 2 hours, 24 minutes
Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: psyconaught]
    #16454916 - 06/29/12 09:51 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

to call all forms of mentall illness fake is sort of living in denial

but they are fake! if you want to tell the difference between a mental illness and a real disease simply find out what diseases a pathologist treats. pathologists stay far away from ptsd, schizophrenia, depression etc. but treat stroke victims, cancer patients etc. people who have a real definable disease. diseases that can be seen in the body during autopsy.

with multiple personality disorder you can actually see a marked difference in mri brain scans while the personalities are switched


you can probably see the same thing with people who are possessed by spirits. does that mean that we should treat all those people who engage in faith healing with psychotherapy, sex therapy, music therapy? mental illness is a social judgment, not chemicals in the brain. what we may call multiple personality disorder in our culture is an ori cle in another, both are social fictions used by powerful people to maintain dominance.

i am reminded of the factory in brazil where women engage in faith healing at the hands of their supervisor's who otherwise mistreat them. their possessions are essentially a way of communicating their dissatisfaction with life. can you imagine, a whole factory flaw being possessed in the middle of production :lol: would you call their treatment medicine?


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,381
Last seen: 2 hours, 24 minutes
Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #16454947 - 06/29/12 10:05 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Schizophrenia can be definitively diagnosed through autopsy. There is a certain membrane in the brain that is thinner than in a normal brain. This is identical to bipolar disorder in anatomy. An autopsy cannot distinguish between schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.

please provide a reference. from my knowledge it is generally excepted that the mental illnesses cannot be identified through autopsy.

the mental illnesses that you decry are habit ingrained illnesses, not unlike the illnesses of smoking and addiction

a habit is not a disease. addiction is not a disease. vices are not diseases, they are behaviors which exist in a social network of meaning.

the pain and suffering from these mental afflictions can be more severe than childbirth and kidneystones

imo comparing mental illness to a kidney stone is ridiculous.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblebirdland


Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 2,174
Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: blingbling] * 1
    #16455073 - 06/29/12 11:03 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

This whole debate is just a matter of definitions.

Quote:

the idea that someone can suffer from a mental illness is pure fabrication.




are you just trying to say that illness is not the right word to be used or something?

Do think the idea that someone can suffer from experiencing and believing paranoid delusions is pure fabrication?


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Posts: 18,809
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: blingbling] * 5
    #16455088 - 06/29/12 11:10 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

take the example of depression. there is no way of knowing from a brain scan whether someone has depression.



A PET scan can compare brain activity during periods of depression (left) with normal brain activity (right). An increase of blue and green colors, along with decreased white and yellow areas, shows decreased brain activity due to depression.
Mayo Clinic

this is not a disease. it is a judgment call.

Depressed people disagree. So do double-blind studies that demonstrate measurable improvements from psychotherapy, drug therapy, and even light therapy for people with Seasonal Affective Disorder, a type of depression caused by a deficit in broad-spectrum light entering the eyes during winter months.

If these things weren't double-blind measurable and didn't respond to treatment administered double-blind, you might have a point. But they do, so you don't. :sorry:

there are places in the world where schizophrenia does not exist.

BZZZT! False:

Schizophrenia has been described in all cultures and socioeconomic groups throughout the world. The perception of mental illness within the cultural dynamics may affect the diagnosis, treatment, and reintegration of an individual with schizophrenia. As culture influences the ways individuals communicate and manifest symptoms of mental illness, style of coping, support system, and willingness to seek treatment may be affected as well. The role of folk healing among minority cultures is explored. The purpose of this paper is to review the illness and to examine the cultural and demographic factors for schizophrenia.
psychosocial.com

Schizophrenia exists in ‘all corners of the earth’ (Lin & Kleinman, 1988, p. 555). We find patients with the symptoms of schizophrenia in Western and non-Western societies, in urban and rural areas, in small, isolated villages upon the mountains and in extremely isolated island societies.
janvanblarikom.nl

Depression and schizophrenia exist in all cultures of the world.
Purdue University

I've personally experienced temporary psychosis/schizophrenia induced by drugs. The experience gave me a healthy respect for these diseases and a deep empathy for those who suffer permanently what I endured for only a few hours.

psychiatry is the modern religion where what used to be called sin is now refered to as mental illness.

I agree that psychiatry has many shortcomings, but it is not entirely useless as you suppose. If that were true, nobody would benefit from it. Although many people do not benefit and some may even be harmed, the statistical evidence database bodes in favor more than against psychiatry. IMO, its failings are a consequence of the human and corporate (big pharma) greed component of psychiatry more than one of the discipline itself, as evidenced by people who've been helped by it for hundreds of years before drug companies were invented. Talking to your priest or teacher or even your friends and family can be psychotheraputic sans-medicines and always has been.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

:archiebunker:


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #16455194 - 06/29/12 11:42 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
only very partly approaching a point,
now you have to refocus on the actuality of mental illness.

I am stepping around outright brain damage and mental illnesses that may result from that. (such as being unable to remember things to the point that the pain and embarrassment is unbearable. or not knowing who you were yesterday or last year. etc.)

the mental illnesses that you decry are habit ingrained illnesses, not unlike the illnesses of smoking and addiction. (-medical help may be needed to break free from illnesses like this-)

there are personality woundings that need care and often long term therapy after childhood brutalization or neglect. The tragically painful coping habits that need to be unravelled may have been repeated thousands and even millions of times.

the pain and suffering from these mental afflictions can be more severe than childbirth and kidneystones. You must allow that there really is mental illness ranging from severity that is ultra extreme, to merely equivalent to digestive discomfort.

you may have been exposed to too many alka-seltzer patients asking for morphine.

aside from that, there are myths in the domain of psychiatry, and these are mostly from unsuitable descriptions and poor understanding of the workings of the mind. all the same, we see treatments because one cannot just walk away.




:thumbup:


--------------------

The basic texture of research consists of dreams into which the threads of reasoning, measurement, and calculation are woven. -Albert Szent-Gyorgyi.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

A human life is a journey into darkness -unknown



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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 4,794
Loc: California
Last seen: 1 hour, 49 minutes
Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: blingbling]
    #16455698 - 06/29/12 01:54 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
to call all forms of mentall illness fake is sort of living in denial

but they are fake! if you want to tell the difference between a mental illness and a real disease simply find out what diseases a pathologist treats. pathologists stay far away from ptsd, schizophrenia, depression etc. but treat stroke victims, cancer patients etc. people who have a real definable disease. diseases that can be seen in the body during autopsy.

with multiple personality disorder you can actually see a marked difference in mri brain scans while the personalities are switched


you can probably see the same thing with people who are possessed by spirits. does that mean that we should treat all those people who engage in faith healing with psychotherapy, sex therapy, music therapy? mental illness is a social judgment, not chemicals in the brain. what we may call multiple personality disorder in our culture is an ori cle in another, both are social fictions used by powerful people to maintain dominance.

i am reminded of the factory in brazil where women engage in faith healing at the hands of their supervisor's who otherwise mistreat them. their possessions are essentially a way of communicating their dissatisfaction with life. can you imagine, a whole factory flaw being possessed in the middle of production :lol: would you call their treatment medicine?




no in fact you cannot view the same with those engaged in fiath healing. let me give you an example, lets put you into and PET scan and tell you to think of "hammer," a certain pattern of electro magnetic pulses will appear that are completely unique to you, it is like a finger print, now lets also say you have multiple personality disorder, while your personality is "switched" a completely different set of unique patterns will appear, in essence it is literally i completely different conciousness within the same brain. while these personality shifts are going on eye sight can even significantly change. now if this was all a fabrication and is completely under the control of the person with said illness, then why doesnt everyone have perfect 20/20 vision if humans have the ability to change their eyesight on demand?

with an oracle or prophet however, that is a fabrication if you refer to it as mutiple personality. people with multiple personality disorder have no recolection or control during their episodes, prophets do.

and yes i do believe people like this should be evaluated for mental illnesshttp
//youtu.be/X3be9wCAwIM


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


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OfflineHippieChick8
seeker of justice
Female


Registered: 06/25/09
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: Diploid]
    #16455757 - 06/29/12 02:07 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:[/iDepressed people disagree. So do double-blind studies that demonstrate measurable improvements from psychotherapy, drug therapy, and even light therapy for people with Seasonal Affective Disorder, a type of depression caused by a deficit in broad-spectrum light entering the eyes during winter months.





Great post!  I think another component of seasonal affective disorder is the lack of vitamin D in the winter for people living above the 35th parallel.  My SAD was so bad that I had to move from the northern U.S. to the south because neither antidepressants, psychotherapy, nor a lightbox would work.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: blingbling]
    #16460829 - 06/30/12 04:12 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
Quote:

rgv said:
the mental illnesses that you decry are habit ingrained illnesses, not unlike the illnesses of smoking and addiction

a habit is not a disease. addiction is not a disease. vices are not diseases, they are behaviors which exist in a social network of meaning.

the pain and suffering from these mental afflictions can be more severe than childbirth and kidneystones





imo comparing mental illness to a kidney stone is ridiculous.




your opinion is your opinion. I am sorry that it is improperly informed - I have had very bad kidney stones and I have been closly involved with mentally ill people, so I am speaking from experience - you seem to be  speaking from intolerance - I wonder why you are intolerant of mental illness, have you been diagnosed unfortunately and thus become resentfull?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #16460969 - 06/30/12 04:47 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I think it's a valid comparison.  Pain almost always involves emotions like fear.


--------------------

The basic texture of research consists of dreams into which the threads of reasoning, measurement, and calculation are woven. -Albert Szent-Gyorgyi.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

A human life is a journey into darkness -unknown



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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Registered: 06/14/04
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: blingbling]
    #16461032 - 06/30/12 05:04 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
the idea that someone can suffer from a mental illness is pure fabrication. take the example of depression. there is no way of knowing from a brain scan whether someone has depression. this is not a disease. it is a judgment call. people who are deemed gloomy or themselves feel that they are not having fun, seek chemical treatment for their imagined disease. of course they are going to feel better. drugs often make people feel better whether they are stigmatized by labels or not. imo we often forget that life can be difficult, but just because someone does not enjoy life as much as is expected does not make them sick.

there are places in the world where schizophrenia does not exist. if a person labeled schizophrenic went to live there he/she would no longer have schizophrenia. if a person has cancer and they go to to live with another culture they still have cancer. this is because cancer is a real disease. it takes two people to have schizophrenia (a fake disease) but only one person to have cancer (a real disease). to label someone as schizophrenic is akin to claiming their soul has been lost or that they are possessed by spirits.

in our modern western society anything that is deemed deviant (gambling, drug use, too much sex, too little sex etc) is considered a disease and almost anything that is pleasurable is considered a treatment (sex therapy, drug therapy, pet therapy, talking therapy etc). we currently live in a state run medico-religious culture where punishing people for the crimes they have commited is out of favor because poverty is a disease. poverty is not a disease just as being rich is not a treatment. it is a social judgment.

psychiatry is the modern religion where what used to be called sin is now refered to as mental illness. "Ethics: obsolete; superseded by the diagnosis and treatment of disease." - Thomas Szasz




I once felt that way until my brother suffered a massive head injury and developed paranoid schizophrenia. I now understand mental illness to be real.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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