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 grautr
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 The Brain is a Meat Computer 
#16368961 - 06/12/12 05:19 AM (1 year, 7 days ago) |
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C-1: Each organ in the body evolved to serve a function: The intestines digest, the heart pumps blood, and the liver detoxifies poisons. The brain’s evolved function is to extract information from the environment and use that information to generate behavior and regulate physiology. Hence, the brain is not just like a computer. It is a computer—that is, a physical system that was designed to process information (Advance 1). Its programs were designed not by an engineer, but by natural selection, a causal process that retains and discards design features based on how well they solved adaptive problems in past environments (Advance 4).
The fact that the brain processes information is not an accidental side effect of some metabolic process. The brain was designed by natural selection to be a computer. Therefore, if you want to describe its operation in a way that captures its evolved function, you need to think of it as composed of programs that process information. The question then becomes: What programs are to be found in the human brain? What are the reliably developing, species-typical programs that, taken together, comprise the human mind?
C-2: Individual behavior is generated by this evolved computer, in response to information that it extracts from the internal and external environment (including the social environment, Advance 1). To understand an individual’s behavior, therefore, you need to know both the information that the person registered and the structure of the programs that generated his or her behavior.
C-3: The programs that comprise the human brain were sculpted over evolutionary time by the ancestral environments and selection pressures experienced by the hunter-gatherers from whom we are descended (Advances 2 and 4). Each evolved program exists because it produced behavior that promoted the survival and reproduction of our ancestors better than alternative programs that arose during human evolutionary history. Evolutionary psychologists emphasize hunter-gatherer life because the evolutionary process is slow—it takes thousands of generations to build a program of any complexity. The industrial revolution—even the agricultural revolution—is too brief a period to have selected for complex new cognitive programs.
C-4: Although the behavior our evolved programs generate would, on average, have been adaptive (reproduction promoting) in ancestral environments, there is no guarantee that it will be so now. Modern environments differ importantly from ancestral ones, particularly when it comes to social behavior. We no longer live in small, face-to-face societies, in seminomadic bands of 20 to 100 people, many of whom were close relatives. Yet, our cognitive programs were designed for that social world.
C-5: Perhaps most importantly, natural selection will ensure that the brain is composed of many different programs, many (or all) of which will be specialized for solving their own corresponding adaptive problems. That is, the evolutionary process will not produce a predominantly general-purpose, equipotential, domain-general architecture (Advance 3).
In fact, this is a ubiquitous engineering outcome. The existence of recurrent computational problems leads to functionally specialized application software. For example, the demand for effective word processing and good digital music playback led to different application programs because many of the design features that make a program an effective word processing program are different from those that make a program a good digital music player. Indeed, the greater the number of functionally specialized programs (or subroutines) your computer has installed, the more intelligent your computer is, and the more things it can accomplish. The same is true for organisms. Armed with this insight, we can lay to rest the myth that the more evolved organization the human mind has, the more inflexible its response. Interpreting the emotional expressions of others, seeing beauty, learning language, loving your child—all these enhancements to human mental life are made possible by specialized neural programs built by natural selection.
http://www.psych.ucsb.edu/research/cep/papers/bussconceptual05.pdf
What do you think?
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jack_straw2208
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Re: The Brain is a Meat Computer [Re: grautr] 1
#16368991 - 06/12/12 05:37 AM (1 year, 7 days ago) |
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every day the streets keep callin, every day
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I'm pullin' steel wires out of my eyes
they're 20 miles long tangled up with my all insides
DieCommie said:
cut off her nose to spider face
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: The Brain is a Meat Computer [Re: grautr]
#16369121 - 06/12/12 07:12 AM (1 year, 7 days ago) |
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The brain was designed by natural selection to be a computer.
the brain was designed by natural selection to be a brain. humans have always equated the brain with whatever technology is most advanced at that time. people used to say the brain is mechanical like a steam engine. in one hundred years there will probably be a new piece of technology that people will equate with the brain.
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Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.
cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.
dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.
White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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scoredon
a cabballo vamos pal monte
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Re: The Brain is a Meat Computer [Re: blingbling] 1
#16369128 - 06/12/12 07:17 AM (1 year, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said:
in one hundred years there will probably be a new piece of technology that people will equate with the brain.
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Ellis Dee
wizard
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Re: The Brain is a Meat Computer [Re: grautr]
#16369207 - 06/12/12 07:55 AM (1 year, 7 days ago) |
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I'd like an upgrade. It takes me way too long to boot up in the morning. I would in all seriousness like to get my brain replaced with a positronic matrix like Lore in Star Trek. Hopefully they'll be coming out with neural implant enhancements soon.
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crkhd
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Re: The Brain is a Meat Computer [Re: blingbling]
#16369283 - 06/12/12 08:34 AM (1 year, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said:
The brain was designed by natural selection to be a computer.
the brain was designed by natural selection to be a brain. humans have always equated the brain with whatever technology is most advanced at that time. people used to say the brain is mechanical like a steam engine. in one hundred years there will probably be a new piece of technology that people will equate with the brain.
Good point! However that doesn't majorly affect the original topic. The brain still is mechanical like a super-duper-duper intricate steam engine. The brain also processes information like a computer. Where you're off the mark is that computation is literally the most generic label for any kind of system. Whatever that comes out in a hundred years will most probably also be regardable as a 'computer'. Fuck, a steam engine is a 'computer'.
To say something is like a computer is in some way about as precise as to say "stuff is made of things that do whatever". Until the numbers come in, anyway. That's where all the nuances arise.
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"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."
"THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker
<i AM breath rippling through water|light reflecting to self with thought AM i>
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: The Brain is a Meat Computer [Re: crkhd]
#16371883 - 06/12/12 06:35 PM (1 year, 6 days ago) |
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a steam engine is a 'computer'
yeah, not really.
The brain still is mechanical like a super-duper-duper intricate steam engine
the brain is biological, not mechanical. steam engines can't change to suit their environment, brains can.
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Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.
cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.
dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.
White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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 DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 25,374
Loc: Street of Dreams
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Re: The Brain is a Meat Computer [Re: blingbling]
#16371925 - 06/12/12 06:42 PM (1 year, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said:
The brain was designed by natural selection to be a computer.
the brain was designed by natural selection to be a brain. humans have always equated the brain with whatever technology is most advanced at that time. people used to say the brain is mechanical like a steam engine. in one hundred years there will probably be a new piece of technology that people will equate with the brain.
I like this point. But did people really say it was like a steam engine? Or whatever device of the time? I never heard that before and cant help but think that is not true... I guess somebody has compared the brain to everything sometime aye? Its like a engine, an arrow, the breeze, ...
Certainly the brain is more computer like than anything else we have to compare it too, right?
To me, the distinction between biological and mechanical here is not relevant.
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=steam+powered+computer&ion=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1599&bih=745&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=18XXT8qAJ-SM2gWO7sDrCA
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White Beard
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Re: The Brain is a Meat Computer [Re: crkhd]
#16371976 - 06/12/12 06:52 PM (1 year, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
crkhd said:
Quote:
blingbling said:
The brain was designed by natural selection to be a computer.
the brain was designed by natural selection to be a brain. humans have always equated the brain with whatever technology is most advanced at that time. people used to say the brain is mechanical like a steam engine. in one hundred years there will probably be a new piece of technology that people will equate with the brain.
Good point! However that doesn't majorly affect the original topic. The brain still is mechanical like a super-duper-duper intricate steam engine. The brain also processes information like a computer. Where you're off the mark is that computation is literally the most generic label for any kind of system. Whatever that comes out in a hundred years will most probably also be regardable as a 'computer'. Fuck, a steam engine is a 'computer'.
To say something is like a computer is in some way about as precise as to say "stuff is made of things that do whatever". Until the numbers come in, anyway. That's where all the nuances arise.
Could another way of saying this is: everything is a system of relations, and the system has no independent existence beyond the relations. All systems process information from their environment because nothing is separate from their environment. Systems interact with one another. The brain interacts with the spinal cord for example...
That's why I don't see the point of calling a brain a computer. A computer is just an umbrella word we used to describe the characteristics of one subsystem, so we know what we are talking about. If you call a brain a computer might as well call a plant a computer, no? A plant extracts information from it's environment, and uses it to regulate behavior. IE roots growing towards water, leaves tilt towards the sun.
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White Beard
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Re: The Brain is a Meat Computer [Re: DieCommie]
#16371989 - 06/12/12 06:54 PM (1 year, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
blingbling said:
The brain was designed by natural selection to be a computer.
the brain was designed by natural selection to be a brain. humans have always equated the brain with whatever technology is most advanced at that time. people used to say the brain is mechanical like a steam engine. in one hundred years there will probably be a new piece of technology that people will equate with the brain.
I like this point. But did people really say it was like a steam engine? Or whatever device of the time? I never heard that before and cant help but think that is not true... I guess somebody has compared the brain to everything sometime aye? Its like a engine, an arrow, the breeze, ...
Certainly the brain is more computer like than anything else we have to compare it too, right?
To me, the distinction between biological and mechanical here is not relevant.
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=steam+powered+computer&ion=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1599&bih=745&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=18XXT8qAJ-SM2gWO7sDrCA
I think the brain is most comparable to a computer then anything else we have in the past just because the computer is the most complex system we have created so far. And the brain is the most complex system (that we know about) that nature has created so far.
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 qman
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Re: The Brain is a Meat Computer [Re: White Beard]
#16372349 - 06/12/12 08:15 PM (1 year, 6 days ago) |
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Most of the function (99%) of a neuron cell in the brain is to keep the cell alive. This is a very inefficient way to maximize computation. Computers don't have these issues.
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White Beard
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Re: The Brain is a Meat Computer [Re: qman]
#16372361 - 06/12/12 08:17 PM (1 year, 6 days ago) |
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But neurons take up a lot less room then circuits.
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DieCommie
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Re: The Brain is a Meat Computer [Re: qman]
#16372398 - 06/12/12 08:23 PM (1 year, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Most of the function (99%) of a neuron cell in the brain is to keep the cell alive.
How do you define such a thing? 99% of the energy the cell consumes or what?
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White Beard
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Re: The Brain is a Meat Computer [Re: DieCommie]
#16372402 - 06/12/12 08:23 PM (1 year, 6 days ago) |
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Sounds like he pulled it out of his ass IMO.
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DieCommie
El Guapo
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Re: The Brain is a Meat Computer [Re: White Beard]
#16372426 - 06/12/12 08:28 PM (1 year, 6 days ago) |
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Yea, you cant really define or quantify 'function' like that. Function is a property we project onto life and nature, its not a property we discover.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: The Brain is a Meat Computer [Re: DieCommie]
#16372475 - 06/12/12 08:38 PM (1 year, 6 days ago) |
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But did people really say it was like a steam engine?
yes, they did. people used to think the brain worked like a clock. completely mechanical and incapable of change. psychologists call this the Newtonian model of brain functioning. Freud (for all his faults) was actually one of the first neuro-scientists to claim the brain is plastic. many of his colleagues said he was crazy.
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Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.
cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.
dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.
White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 25,374
Loc: Street of Dreams
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Re: The Brain is a Meat Computer [Re: blingbling]
#16372512 - 06/12/12 08:46 PM (1 year, 6 days ago) |
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Incapable of change? I find that hard to believe. Surely everyone knew a person could be taught and that the brain grows as you age...
Know where I can read about this "Newtonian model of brain functioning" or any support or critiques of it?
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qman
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Re: The Brain is a Meat Computer [Re: DieCommie]
#16372531 - 06/12/12 08:50 PM (1 year, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
White Beard said:
Sounds like he pulled it out of his ass IMO.
I read it in a book by Ray Kurzweil, "The Age of Spiritual Machines". It's a interesting read, he tries to predict the future of computer technology.
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Freedom
Will swim for food
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Re: The Brain is a Meat Computer [Re: blingbling]
#16372619 - 06/12/12 09:10 PM (1 year, 6 days ago) |
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Its not that plasticity wasn't thought to exist, its that the ammount of plasticity has been found to be much more than previously thought. Acording to this abstract was only in the 20's and 30's that the idea was out of favor in the science community.
Interestingly the idea was coined by william james. that guy was everywhere
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: The Brain is a Meat Computer [Re: DieCommie]
#16372984 - 06/12/12 10:21 PM (1 year, 6 days ago) |
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it was thought that learning didn't change the structure of the brain. change was admitted to occure during development though. there's a great book one of my lecturers lent me, i think its called the brain that changes itself. it goes into the history of cognitive models but it mostly centers on empirical data that reveals brain plasticity.
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Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.
cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.
dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.
White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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