Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!
|
 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,916
Loc: underbelly
|
|
Quote:
Backwards2012 said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Why didn't Zimmerman fire a few warning shots, or at the very least brandish his weapon before Martin came too close for comfort?
Because Zimmerman was likely trained that if you pull your weapon, you better use it. If you pull a gun on someone and don't use it, especially an innocent teenager, you're going to jail.
Quote:
Icelander said:
I'd like to ask you the same question I asked notquitesocial and he refused to answer. Are you sure that your views of the events are positively correct or do you have some uncertainty as to what exactly happened and who is the guilty party?
We know that:
- Zimmerman had been reported to his previous employer's HR department making racist, violent comments.
- Zimmerman followed Martin
- Zimmerman did not identify himself as neighborhood watch to Martin (according to the available dispatch audio)
- There was a physical altercation
- Martin, the unarmed teenager, ends up dead just a few minutes after buying tea and Skittles
There isn't anything more to it. It is manslaughter, by following Martin Zimmerman has lost any chance at claiming he was simply standing his ground.
Since when has simple assault required deadly force? You go up and punch a cop, they aren't going to put a slug in your chest in most circumstances.
Thanks, that's all I wanted to know.
--------------------
"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
|
Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area 
|
|
Quote:
Backwards2012 said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Why didn't Zimmerman fire a few warning shots, or at the very least brandish his weapon before Martin came too close for comfort?
Because Zimmerman was likely trained that if you pull your weapon, you better use it.
If that's the case, then that's some pretty shit-brained training, considering the deterrent effect of a brandished lethal weapon.
Quote:
If you pull a gun on someone and don't use it, especially an innocent teennager, you're going to jail.
Zimmerman was pursuing a suspicious person, which was his duty as neighborhood watch captain... he had no way of knowing the age of the said person at the time of his pursuit. I really doubt that a neighborhood watch captain would get in trouble for pointing a gun at a suspicious person who dangerously approaches him (i.e. gets too close for comfort). So, I ask one more time, why didn't he at least brandish his weapon? Obviously, doing so would've made Martin flee away like a cowering little bunny... but no, he waited until he was pummeled to the point of receiving semi-serious injuries before he decided to use the gun that was in his possession the entire time.
If I were Zimmerman, and I were pursuing a big-ass black guy who was obviously out of place in a predominantly white neighborhood that had recently experienced a bunch of burglaries, and who was dangerously approaching me, I wouldn't hesitate to fire even an entire clip of warning shots, let alone at least brandish my weapon.
--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (05/28/12 11:21 PM)
|
 Backwards2012
Stranger
Registered: 05/26/12
Posts: 44
Last seen: 11 months, 20 days
|
 Re: trayvon martin shooting  [Re: Poid]
#16298022 - 05/28/12 11:37 PM (11 months, 20 days ago) |
|
|
Semi-serious injuries... Pummeled? I've woken up more times than I can count with more serious injuries than Zimmerman had from tripping over a damn curb walking home from the bars. Neighborhood watch captain? Quite the title for something that DIDN'T EXIST.
"The alleged action of a “self-appointed neighborhood watchman” last month in Sanford, FL significantly contradicts the principles of the Neighborhood Watch Program,” stated NSA Executive Director Aaron D. Kennard, Sheriff (ret.). “NSA has no information indicating the community where the incident occurred has ever even registered with the NSA Neighborhood Watch program.”
Here's a Reuter's article
Quote:
- Neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman made statements to police that help establish his guilt in the second-degree murder case against him for killing unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin, prosecutors said in a court filing on Thursday.
The claim came in a motion by prosecutors to keep some of Zimmerman's statements under seal pending his trial in a case that triggered civil rights protests across the United States, while sparking widespread debate over guns, self-defense laws and U.S. race relations.
"Defendant (Zimmerman) has provided law enforcement with numerous statements, some of which are contradictory, and are inconsistent with the physical evidence and statements of witnesses," the prosecutors said in their court filing.
They said the statements by Zimmerman were admissible in court and "in conjunction with other statements and evidence help to establish defendant's guilt in this case."
The court filing offered no details about the statements Zimmerman made to police or other law enforcement officials. It said Florida's public records law had no provision requiring "the disclosure of a confession" of a defendant.
"The state asserts that this provision includes an admission of a defendant that could be used against him at trial," the filing said.
Zimmerman, 28 is charged with shooting and killing the 17-year-old Martin as he walked through a gated residential community in Sanford, Florida, near Orlando, on February 26.
Police initially declined to arrest Zimmerman, citing Florida's "Stand Your Ground" self-defense law, but a special prosecutor who was subsequently appointed charged Zimmerman with second-degree murder.
Zimmerman has pleaded not guilty.
In a separate court filing on Thursday, Zimmerman's lawyer Mark O'Mara joined in the motion to keep his client's statements out of the public eye for the time being.
"There is the possibility that these statements may be subject to motions to suppress, if there is a potentially involuntary statement elicited from Mr. Zimmerman," O'Mara said.
"The release of that information would be highly prejudicial to Mr. Zimmerman's case, and again, would adversely affect the proper administration of justice," he said.
O'Mara also asked the judge to withhold what he said were thousands of emails received by the Sanford police about the case, some of which are racially charged, and Zimmerman's own text messages, emails and journal entries obtained by prosecutors as part of their evidence gathering.
Seminole County Circuit Court Judge Kenneth Lester set a June 1 hearing to consider the motions for a protective order.
What true victim can't stick to what actually happened?
|
Cervantes
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 15,874
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill
Last seen: 3 hours, 19 minutes
|
Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#16298216 - 05/29/12 12:11 AM (11 months, 20 days ago) |
|
|
There you go again Diploid. I am surprised at your poor debate skills lately.
"Non-emergency dispatcher" means, in real English, "Police dispatcher".
You call 911, you are asked what kind of call you are making. "Police, non-emergency." gets you a dispatcher. Are they also trained for emergency calls? In a small town, that is very likely. They just know the call is not urgent when the operator patches them through.
--------------------
I know you think you understand the words I have just said to you but, what you fail to realize is, what you thought I said is not what I actually meant by saying what I said, when I said it.
|
Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,224
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
 Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Cervantes]
#16298824 - 05/29/12 02:05 AM (11 months, 20 days ago) |
|
|
Only on Shroomery can someone be criticized for taking pains with the accuracy of the facts in a criminal case.
Gotta hand it to ya. I didn't think anything in this thread could surprise me any more. 
--------------------
Believe those who are seeking Truth. Doubt those who find it.
|
Cervantes
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 15,874
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill
Last seen: 3 hours, 19 minutes
|
Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#16298919 - 05/29/12 02:28 AM (11 months, 20 days ago) |
|
|
Nice logical response.
--------------------
I know you think you understand the words I have just said to you but, what you fail to realize is, what you thought I said is not what I actually meant by saying what I said, when I said it.
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,394
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 9 days
|
Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Cervantes]
#16299490 - 05/29/12 06:28 AM (11 months, 20 days ago) |
|
|
> You call 911, you are asked what kind of call you are making. "Police, non-emergency." gets you a dispatcher.
Why are you talking about 911? Do you think Zimmerman called 911? Perhaps you think Martin called 911?
Quote:
Zimmerman was pursuing a suspicious person, which was his duty as neighborhood watch captain... he had no way of knowing the age of the said person at the time of his pursuit. I really doubt that a neighborhood watch captain would get in trouble for pointing a gun at a suspicious person who dangerously approaches him (i.e. gets too close for comfort). So, I ask one more time, why didn't he at least brandish his weapon? Obviously, doing so would've made Martin flee away like a cowering little bunny... but no, he waited until he was pummeled to the point of receiving semi-serious injuries before he decided to use the gun that was in his possession the entire time.
If I were Zimmerman, and I were pursuing a big-ass black guy who was obviously out of place in a predominantly white neighborhood that had recently experienced a bunch of burglaries, and who was dangerously approaching me, I wouldn't hesitate to fire even an entire clip of warning shots, let alone at least brandish my weapon.
Brandishing a firearm is illegal. Using a firearm in self defense is not illegal. Firing warning shots is illegal. Shooting somebody in self defense is not illegal. In my firearm class (not in the US), they taught us that you do not remove your firearm from its holster unless you are planning on shooting somebody, and you do not shoot somebody unless you are planning on killing them, thus if you remove your firearm from the holster, then it is because your life is in immediate danger, and you have decided that the only way to avoid death (or serious bodily harm) is to kill the person attacking you. This lesson was drilled into us- if you remove your firearm from its holster, somebody dies. A gun is not a toy. It isn't something you use to scare somebody off. When carried for self defense, its only purpose is to kill.
--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,916
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Seuss] 1
#16299745 - 05/29/12 09:04 AM (11 months, 20 days ago) |
|
|
I believe handgun training is basically the same here in the US. Most people don't know much about them and so make lots of statements (like firing warning shots) that make no sense.
--------------------
"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,916
Loc: underbelly
|
|
I can count with more serious injuries than Zimmerman had from tripping over a damn curb walking home from the bars.
Do you often break your nose walking home from a bar?
How about listing some of these more serious injuries.
--------------------
"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
|
Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,646
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 5 days, 18 hours
|
Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Icelander]
#16300159 - 05/29/12 11:51 AM (11 months, 20 days ago) |
|
|
I'm short of time right now and posting on a borrowed computer, so rather than bookmarking these two links and coming back to them later to write my usual impeccably-reasoned type of post, I'll do a quick and dirty link job and just strongly suggest you guys carefully read them both all the way through. They are lengthy but detailed and well worth the time it takes to read them, ponder them, process them, and then post in response.
The first, from a left-leaning defense lawyer has a useful diagram, and tons of quotes from the various witnesses. Like everyone else so far, she has to admit that all the evidence produced so far supports Zimmerman's version of events, and none contradicts it. Her conclusion? Zimmerman acted in self defence.
This next one is extremely interesting. Especially the video from the convenience store where Martin bought his famous skittles. Watching that video, it is immediately apparent why Zimmerman told the dispatcher that Martin looked like he was on drugs. He quite clearly is. Look at him swaying around like an alky. Had he been chugging "Lean" earlier that night, as he had on so many other occasions? That article is long, but VERY detailed. Lots of interesting stuff in it.
Part one of that article is well worth a read, too. Yeah, the writer made a few mistakes with terminology and such, but that is understandable for someone who is not a DXM abuser. What matters is the commentary from Erowid. If Trayvon had in fact been chugging Robitussin for the last eighteen months or so, it provides an explanation for his circling back to confront Zimmerman rather than just heading back to his father's girlfriend's place once he had shaken Zimmerman. Long-time DXM abusers develop paranoid tendencies as well as aggressive behavior.
Also, what the hell was he doing between the time he bought his Skittles and Arizona Watermelon (not iced tea as was misreported originally) and the time he confronted Zimmerman? That store was minutes away from his destination. Why the hell was he still out there - in the rain - more than half an hour after leaving the convenience store? Perhaps because he really was casing residences for future burglaries? Or was it because he was so befuddled by DXM that he just stood in one place grooving on the rain falling on him for minutes at a time?
Let's face it, if this goon was staggering around the neighborhood gazing at townhouse after townhouse, it's no wonder Zimmerman decided the police should come and check this guy out.
Phred
--------------------
|
 Baby_Hitler
Anarcho-Technologist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 21,405
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 4 minutes, 56 seconds
|
Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Phred]
#16300842 - 05/29/12 03:02 PM (11 months, 20 days ago) |
|
|
You're seeing what you want to see. He isn't Swaying around, he's talking. Maybe you stand stiff as a board all the time, even when having a friendly conversation with a clerk. Not everybody does.
--------------------
|
Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,646
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 5 days, 18 hours
|
Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#16300867 - 05/29/12 03:11 PM (11 months, 20 days ago) |
|
|
No, brah. Have you ever lived with an alcoholic? Watch it again. Watch how he keeps swaying just slightly forward till his thighs bounce off the counter. He's definitely having balance issues there. What's more, the way he's swaying is the way alkies who are practiced at regaining their balance handle it. He's had practice at this.
This would explain how Zimmerman was so easily able to make the observation "It looks like he's on drugs." Weed smokers don't have balance issues. That's the province of downers, or alcohol, or dissociatives.
Phred
--------------------
|
Cervantes
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 15,874
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill
Last seen: 3 hours, 19 minutes
|
Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Seuss]
#16301023 - 05/29/12 03:52 PM (11 months, 20 days ago) |
|
|
Calling 911 for a police non-emergency or calling the police office direct for the same reason yields the same results. You talk to a police dispatcher. They prioritize the call and determine when and where to send the cops.
Did Zimmerman talk to a cop on the phone? No. But he "called the cops." just like practically everybody else does when they pick up a phone and talk to a police dispatcher.
People say, "I am calling the cops" not, "I am calling a police dispatcher for a non-emergency situation."
Diploid's need to point out that Zimmerman did not talk directly to the police is rather trite. His point that Zimmerman did not call 911 is practically moot since Zimmerman talked to the same type of dispatcher he would have if he had called the three didgit number instead of the direct line. Zimmerman may have even talked to the exact same dispatcher in either case.
If I call an airline, I don't expect a pilot to answer the phone. If I call the doctor's office I don't expect the doctor to answer my call. If I call the police, I don't expect the chief to immediately talk to me and dispatch a squad car for me.
The dispatcher was right too. They "Didn't need" Zimmerman to follow Martin. No matter who stood their ground, Zimmerman's chase is what let this non-emergency call turn into a death... and into many REAL 911 emergency calls.
Is following a person a crime? Not that I can tell. Not in this situation.
Team Martin has an uphill battle.
But Zimmerman is no hero for following and ultimately killing an unarmed teen. The death was avoidable. Easily avoidable.
It is the neighborhood WATCH not the neighborhood FOLLOW.
I really don't care about race, or who swung first, or who turned on who.
Zimmerman killed an unarmed teen because he ignored the advice of a trained professional. Martin ran, meaning he yielded his ground to this neighborhood follower. Zimmerman made a teen run then claimed he was standing HIS ground. In the eyes of the law, that may be all it takes... but even in the eyes of Fla law, the running man gets to stand his ground first, if he had reason to fear for his life.
--------------------
I know you think you understand the words I have just said to you but, what you fail to realize is, what you thought I said is not what I actually meant by saying what I said, when I said it.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,916
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Phred]
#16301037 - 05/29/12 03:55 PM (11 months, 20 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Phred said:
No, brah. Have you ever lived with an alcoholic? Watch it again. Watch how he keeps swaying just slightly forward till his thighs bounce off the counter. He's definitely having balance issues there. What's more, the way he's swaying is the way alkies who are practiced at regaining their balance handle it. He's had practice at this.
This would explain how Zimmerman was so easily able to make the observation "It looks like he's on drugs." Weed smokers don't have balance issues. That's the province of downers, or alcohol, or dissociatives.
Phred
If he was so drunk then how did he easily get the upper hand on Zimmerman.
He really doesn't look very drunk to me.
Your first link however was interesting.
--------------------
"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
|
luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 24,902
Loc: Lost In Space
|
Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Cervantes]
#16301128 - 05/29/12 04:14 PM (11 months, 20 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Cervantes said:
Zimmerman killed an unarmed teen because he ignored the advice of a trained professional.
Really? What advice was that?
Quote:
Martin ran, meaning he yielded his ground to this neighborhood follower.
You're right... up until he apparently attacked Zimmerman.
--------------------
“In politics, few talents are as richly rewarded as the ability to convince parasites that they are victims. Welfare states on both sides of the Atlantic have discovered that largesse to losers does not reduce their hostility to society, but only increases it. Far from producing gratitude, generosity is seen as an admission of guilt, and the reparations as inadequate compensation for injustices – leading to worsening behavior by the recipients.
Thomas Sowell
|
Cervantes
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 15,874
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill
Last seen: 3 hours, 19 minutes
|
|
But why did Martin attack? Because he was affraid for his life, or because he was a vigilante? Do vigilantes run or do vigilantes follow with guns?
Did Martin attack after he ran? Did he know Zimmerman had a gun?
Zimmerman ignored the needs of the dispatcher and perhaps the police since the dispatcher said "WE don't need you to do that". He followed Martin who was running away. Zimmerman was armed. He got Martin to run. He then was beaten and killed the teen.
How does an armed man who ignores the needs of a trained, professional dispatcher not come off as a fool who could have avoided killing a teen?
I guess the race baitors in this thread think the world is better off without teenage boys they never knew yet insist on calling "goon" or "thug". At least you are better than that, Luvdem.
--------------------
I know you think you understand the words I have just said to you but, what you fail to realize is, what you thought I said is not what I actually meant by saying what I said, when I said it.
Edited by Cervantes (05/29/12 04:37 PM)
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,336
Last seen: 1 hour, 7 minutes
|
Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Cervantes]
#16301244 - 05/29/12 04:37 PM (11 months, 20 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Cervantes said:
But why did Martin attack? Because he was affraid for his life, or because he was a vigilante? Do vigilantes run or do vigilantes follow with guns?
Because he had been imbued with a grievance mentality by his parents.Quote:
Did Martin attack after he ran? Did he know Zimmerman had a gun?
I should think not.Quote:
Zimmerman ignored the needs of the dispatcher. He followed Martin who was running away. Zimmerman was armed. He got Martin to run. He then was beaten and killed the teen.
The police "don't need me to do a lot of things". I'm still going to do them.Quote:
How does an armed man who ignores the needs of a trained, professional dispatcher not come off as a fool who could have avoided killing a teen?
Lots of people could have avoided this, not the least of which is Trayvon.Quote:
I guess the race baitors in this thread think the world is better off without teenage boys they never knew yet insist on calling "goon" or "thug". At least you are better than that, Luvdem.
It certainly seems that the thug attacked Martin and was beating his head into the ground.
--------------------
|
Cervantes
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 15,874
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill
Last seen: 3 hours, 19 minutes
|
Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: zappaisgod]
#16301257 - 05/29/12 04:40 PM (11 months, 20 days ago) |
|
|
How many times have you accused people of race baiting Zappa?
Did you know Martin? You seem to know he was a thug. Is being a thug illegal? Does it always involve Skittles and juice?
I am amazed at the race baiting from the Zimmerman camp on these boards.
--------------------
I know you think you understand the words I have just said to you but, what you fail to realize is, what you thought I said is not what I actually meant by saying what I said, when I said it.
|
Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,224
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Cervantes]
#16301292 - 05/29/12 04:47 PM (11 months, 20 days ago) |
|
|
Diploid's need to point out that Zimmerman did not talk directly to the police is rather trite.
You're full of shit making things up that I did not say.
I stated a FACT. Zimmerman did not call 911. He called a local non-emergency dispatch number. It was at the police department. That's what "dispatch" means to anyone with a brain.
And if you'd bothered to read the rest of this thread before spouting off your bullshit, you'd see that I've previously stipulated that he was talking to POLICE non-emergency dispatch. That's what dispatch fucking means. What, did you think I meant it was the local taxi company dispatch? Give me a fucking break. What do you think I have to gain by leaving off something glaringly obvious for which there are now millions of police transcript copies floating around the internet?
I'm tired of typing the same fucking thing over and over again to idiots who can't read and who haven't bothered to read my dozens of other posts where I cluttered the screen by typing the whole god damned name POLICE FUCKING NON-EMERGENCY DISPATCH.
I keep assuming that the people reading me have a brain sufficiently developed to interpolate rather than instantly assume I have nefarious intentions by abbreviating after having typed the whole fucking phrase a dozen times before.
My bad. I see that's not true. Next time I'll hold your hand and spoon feed you.
--------------------
Believe those who are seeking Truth. Doubt those who find it.
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,336
Last seen: 1 hour, 7 minutes
|
Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Cervantes]
#16301387 - 05/29/12 05:17 PM (11 months, 19 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Cervantes said:
How many times have you accused people of race baiting Zappa?
Lots of times. In specific regard to this thread it was about the NY Times referring to Zimmerman specifically as a "white Hispanic". I read the NY Times every day, including today. I don't believe there was one single incident of them referring to Hispanics, and there were plenty of references, as "white Hispanics. That is most definitely race baiting. Quote:
Did you know Martin? You seem to know he was a thug. Is being a thug illegal? Does it always involve Skittles and juice?
I saw the fight club video, I saw the gang sign Facebook page, I saw Zimmerman's wounds. Quote:
I am amazed at the race baiting from the Zimmerman camp on these boards.
Please quote an example from me of racebaiting.
--------------------
| |
|
|
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Phred, Prisoner#1
35,469 topic views. 1 members, 3 guests and 0 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic ]
| | |
|
|
|
Images only 
Threaded
Previous
Index
Next
Edit 
Reply 
Anonymous
