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 SlashOZ
:D
Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,546
Loc: Following the water cycle
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 Re: We really should cut the defense budget  [Re: zappaisgod]
#16257818 - 05/20/12 01:26 PM (1 year, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
We are in the top tax bracket.
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"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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 zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,267
Last seen: 17 hours, 20 minutes
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: SlashOZ]
#16257909 - 05/20/12 01:44 PM (1 year, 1 day ago) |
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Why you laughing?
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Enlil
LIL-9000
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 11,408
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
#16258043 - 05/20/12 02:21 PM (1 year, 23 hours ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Enlil said:
You're arguing against positions that I never took.
You went too far, counselor, when you said this, which I was kind enough to highlight for you
"Every dollar that is cut is one less dollar available to pay someone." The cascade of dollars is much more effective OUTSIDE the government than it is inside it.
This statement is 100% true and accurate within the context of how it was written...
For every dollar cut, there is one less dollar going to a paycheck...period...It isn't a matter of who is managing that dollar...if someone cuts a dollar from defense, some defense company has one less dollar to pay a worker...There's no inaccuracy there...
You're making some macro level argument about how dollars are better off in private hands...that's not the issue...I happen to agree with you on this. It is, however, a FACT that when defense budget is cut, that is less money going to people's paychecks...
I am more than happy to see 1.4 trillion dollars cut from many different things and let the unemployment rate skyrocket...it'll come around eventually. But to claim that cutting a dollar doesn't take it out of a paycheck is nonsense.
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Ask a defense attorney
Fuck the Amish
Rail_Gun said, "And those kids in CT deserved to die and I'm glad they're dead. I am glad that the survivors will have to "live with it" too. hahaha"
Listerine said, "i want genocide for most of africa"
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,267
Last seen: 17 hours, 20 minutes
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil] 1
#16258064 - 05/20/12 02:27 PM (1 year, 23 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Enlil said:
You're arguing against positions that I never took.
You went too far, counselor, when you said this, which I was kind enough to highlight for you
"Every dollar that is cut is one less dollar available to pay someone." The cascade of dollars is much more effective OUTSIDE the government than it is inside it.
This statement is 100% true and accurate within the context of how it was written...
For every dollar cut, there is one less dollar going to a paycheck...period...It isn't a matter of who is managing that dollar...if someone cuts a dollar from defense, some defense company has one less dollar to pay a worker...There's no inaccuracy there...
You're making some macro level argument about how dollars are better off in private hands...that's not the issue...I happen to agree with you on this. It is, however, a FACT that when defense budget is cut, that is less money going to people's paychecks...
I am more than happy to see 1.4 trillion dollars cut from many different things and let the unemployment rate skyrocket...it'll come around eventually. But to claim that cutting a dollar doesn't take it out of a paycheck is nonsense.
Not if that dollar came out of a paycheck in the first place. Every nickel the government spends was taken from someone else who couldn't spend it somewhere else. It is a zero sum game even in the short term. One guy not having a dollar that the government paid him means one guy having a dollar the government didn't take.
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Enlil
LIL-9000
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 11,408
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
#16258086 - 05/20/12 02:33 PM (1 year, 23 hours ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Not if that dollar came out of a paycheck in the first place. Every nickel the government spends was taken from someone else who couldn't spend it somewhere else. It is a zero sum game even in the short term. One guy not having a dollar that the government paid him means one guy having a dollar the government didn't take.
That would be true if we had a balanced budget...but this isn't a zero sum game...The deficit isn't coming out of your pocket or mine...it's coming out of some future generation's pocket...only the interest is coming out of mine.
You can say that you're not interested in looking at the short term, but it isn't even that...there is every indication that the debt will NEVER be paid. It will always exist...meaning that it will always be artificial money upon which we pay the interest ad infinitum...
As such, that money could never go to a person's paycheck unless it was borrowed and spent by the government. So if we borrow 500 billion less and cut that amount from defense...500 billion less will go to people's paychecks now and forever...
And I'm okay with that.
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Ask a defense attorney
Fuck the Amish
Rail_Gun said, "And those kids in CT deserved to die and I'm glad they're dead. I am glad that the survivors will have to "live with it" too. hahaha"
Listerine said, "i want genocide for most of africa"
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,267
Last seen: 17 hours, 20 minutes
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
#16258135 - 05/20/12 02:51 PM (1 year, 23 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Not if that dollar came out of a paycheck in the first place. Every nickel the government spends was taken from someone else who couldn't spend it somewhere else. It is a zero sum game even in the short term. One guy not having a dollar that the government paid him means one guy having a dollar the government didn't take.
That would be true if we had a balanced budget...but this isn't a zero sum game...The deficit isn't coming out of your pocket or mine...it's coming out of some future generation's pocket...only the interest is coming out of mine.
Well no, counselor, it is most likely to come out of my pocket. And out of the pockets of the people who would otherwise hire me.Quote:
You can say that you're not interested in looking at the short term, but it isn't even that...there is every indication that the debt will NEVER be paid. It will always exist...meaning that it will always be artificial money upon which we pay the interest ad infinitum...
This is why you are neither a business person nor an economist. And didn't you just say that it wasn't coming out of your pocket or mine yet in this sentence you say it is? Quote:
As such, that money could never go to a person's paycheck unless it was borrowed and spent by the government. So if we borrow 500 billion less and cut that amount from defense...500 billion less will go to people's paychecks now and forever...
And I'm okay with that.
No, 500B will go to other people's paychecks producing other things. Because the government won't be taking it out of the private sector.
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Enlil
LIL-9000
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 11,408
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
#16258184 - 05/20/12 03:02 PM (1 year, 23 hours ago) |
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Clearly you don't understand the concept of a deficit...We spend 1.4 trillion that is not funded by taxes...so if that 1.4 trillion were not spent, taxes would not go down...There wouldn't be additional money in anyone's pocket...
You've dug your heels in...and you're convinced you're right...I'm certainly convinced I'm right...this conversation can serve no further purpose, dave.
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Ask a defense attorney
Fuck the Amish
Rail_Gun said, "And those kids in CT deserved to die and I'm glad they're dead. I am glad that the survivors will have to "live with it" too. hahaha"
Listerine said, "i want genocide for most of africa"
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,267
Last seen: 17 hours, 20 minutes
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
#16258214 - 05/20/12 03:07 PM (1 year, 23 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Clearly you don't understand the concept of a deficit...We spend 1.4 trillion that is not funded by taxes...so if that 1.4 trillion were not spent, taxes would not go down...There wouldn't be additional money in anyone's pocket...
You've dug your heels in...and you're convinced you're right...I'm certainly convinced I'm right...this conversation can serve no further purpose, dave.
Except for attorneys, most educated people realize that the bill is going to eventually come out of somebody's pocket. Everybody not a retarded monkey knows that the bill will come due, one way or the other. See Europe.
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,762
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: meams]
#16258471 - 05/20/12 04:02 PM (1 year, 22 hours ago) |
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Quote:
It's not really what you'd think...
And we spend so little on defense relative to what we spend supporting an unsustainable social services system
My thoughts on the matter, particularly as it relates to the "Taxed Enough Already" Tea Party types, income tax, & military spending (note: I said military and not defense bc the former is simply objective instead of making a subjective claim regarding its purpose).
First off, how synonymous is federal "discretionary spending" with being funded by income taxes, or is some "mandatory spending" at the federal level funded by income taxes (as opposed to the two largest entitlement programs, Social Security & Medicare, which I believe at least for the near future are fully funded by separate taxes, specific to those programs)?
If the two are generally synonymous, then it reveals the hypocrisy (or simply the ignorance) of the Tea Party*. Total military-related expenditures are upwards of $1 trillion dollars per year (note: I said total and not simply the Pentagon budget, which I'm aware is only $700 billion). If you add in the interest on the debt as a result of unfunded war & other military expenditures, it's up to like $1.2 trillion per year. Even w/o counting the interest on the debt attributable to military spending, the amount (0.9-1.0 trillion) is ~60% of discretionary spending.
Total income taxes taken in at the federal level are only around $1 trillion per year. If the two are roughly synonymous (discretionary spending & spending funded by income taxes), then it means that about 60 cents of every dollar of income taxes is going to the overall military budget (again, not counting interest payments on the federal debt). How can someone complain about high income taxes if they are obsessive supporters of what is by far consuming more of them than any other program? In fact, they want to increase military spending even further (see Romney's recent op-ed in Chicago Tribune for one of countless examples of this).
Further, Tea Party types probably enjoy the Interstate (and dare I say even public education) as much as the rest of the population, so it's not as if other discretionary spending = welfare. In fact, I think strict welfare programs (such as Food Stamps & TANF, along with foreign humanitarian aid) are only about 3% of the federal budget. Further, things like drug prohibition spending in all its forms they like even more than the general population.
Even if I am missing something, such as income taxes being used to fund (albeit not fully, of course) certain things that I am not aware of, the central point still stands: If you want to increase spending in an area that currently consumes 25-30% of the federal budget, you really should stop complaining about taxes being too high.
* I use this as a distinction from libertarians. Here's a rather comical animated bit made by a libertarian who has attended a Tea party rally, highlighting the differences.
Libertarian Vs. Tea Party
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"I did not know then how much was ended. When I look back now from this high hill of my old age, I can still see the butchered women and children lying heaped and scattered all along the crooked gulch as plain as when I saw them with eyes still young. And I can see that something else died there in the bloody mud, and was buried in the blizzard. A people's dream died there. It was a beautiful dream.
And I, to whom so great a vision was given in my youth; you see me now a pitiful old man who has done nothing, for the nation's hoop is broken and scattered. There is no center any longer, and the sacred tree is dead."
- Oglala Lakota medicine man Black Elk, reflecting on the 1890 Wounded Knee massacre
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,267
Last seen: 17 hours, 20 minutes
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
It's not really what you'd think...
And we spend so little on defense relative to what we spend supporting an unsustainable social services system
My thoughts on the matter, particularly as it relates to the "Taxed Enough Already" Tea Party types, income tax, & military spending (note: I said military and not defense bc the former is simply objective instead of making a subjective claim regarding its purpose).
First off, how synonymous is federal "discretionary spending" with being funded by income taxes, or is some "mandatory spending" at the federal level funded by income taxes (as opposed to the two largest entitlement programs, Social Security & Medicare, which I believe at least for the near future are fully funded by separate taxes, specific to those programs)?
They are not funded. They are a Ponzi scheme that is scheduled to collapse. The fact that they have not collapsed yet is no indicator that they are fully funded. I don't believe they are funded at all, in fact, they rely solely on continued contributions by people who will never likely see any benefits unless the contribution rate is vastly increased.Quote:
If the two are generally synonymous, then it reveals the hypocrisy (or simply the ignorance) of the Tea Party*. Total military-related expenditures are upwards of $1 trillion dollars per year (note: I said total and not simply the Pentagon budget, which I'm aware is only $700 billion). If you add in the interest on the debt as a result of unfunded war & other military expenditures, it's up to like $1.2 trillion per year. Even w/o counting the interest on the debt attributable to military spending, the amount (0.9-1.0 trillion) is ~60% of discretionary spending.
I looked up US military expenditures and got 711M. How you figure the debt on that is 500M a year is beyond me. But that's fine. Why is the federal government spending much money on anything else at all. We are a nation of states. That's why we exist.Quote:
Total income taxes taken in at the federal level are only around $1 trillion per year. If the two are roughly synonymous (discretionary spending & spending funded by income taxes), then it means that about 60 cents of every dollar of income taxes is going to the overall military budget (again, not counting interest payments on the federal debt). How can someone complain about high income taxes if they are obsessive supporters of what is by far consuming more of them than any other program? In fact, they want to increase military spending even further (see Romney's recent op-ed in Chicago Tribune for one of countless examples of this).
I believe Romney's point was that Europe was a pile of cunts, which position I share entirely. Income tax receipts are higher than that and, since the sixties, payroll taxes have been thrown into the general til. That is why medicare medicaid and soc sec are not fully funded. They aren't dedicated tax receipts.Quote:
Further, Tea Party types probably enjoy the Interstate (and dare I say even public education) as much as the rest of the population,
No, we do not enjoy public education. It has been co-opted by union idiotsQuote:
so it's not as if other discretionary spending = welfare. In fact, I think strict welfare programs (such as Food Stamps & TANF, along with foreign humanitarian aid) are only about 3% of the federal budget. Further, things like drug prohibition spending in all its forms they like even more than the general population.
Drug prohibition is favored by the people, sadly.Quote:
Even if I am missing something, such as income taxes being used to fund (albeit not fully, of course) certain things that I am not aware of, the central point still stands: If you want to increase spending in an area that currently consumes 25-30% of the federal budget, you really should stop complaining about taxes being too high.
Military spending is going to go down by quite a lot since you made a point that it wasn't just the Pentagon budget. I agree that we should leave Afghanistan now. Obama has completely botched it.
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,762
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
#16259320 - 05/20/12 08:00 PM (1 year, 18 hours ago) |
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This chart shows federal income tax revenue to be around $1 trillion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S.-income-taxes-out-of-total-taxes.JPG
Quote:
Drug prohibition is favored by the people, sadly.
Ugh. I very clearly said higher than the general population; I did not say exclusively or anything to that effect.
Quote:
I looked up US military expenditures and got 711M. How you figure the debt on that is 500M a year is beyond me.
I think you meant billion. As I said, I acknowledged the Pentagon budget to be that. But this does not include things like VA, college tuition, nuclear weapons (that's Dept. of Energy), CIA drone program & other activities, etc. Adding these all up you get at least $200 billion if not $300 billion... which is the $0.9-1.0 trillion figure that I used. The $1.2-1.3 trillion figure (which I stated was optional to use) came from interest payments on the debt due to wars & military spending in general.
Quote:
Military spending is going to go down by quite a lot since you made a point that it wasn't just the Pentagon budget.
It might go down a little if leaving Afghanistan (for the most part), but Obama seems content to keep it (overall military spending) at $900+ billion annually, & Romney would probably be swell to increase it to $1+ trillion or more.
Quote:
From Romney's op-ed: Gen. Martin Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, has plainly said that such a reduction means "we would not any longer be a global power."
What BS. If the U.S. were to drop military spending by a mere $100 billion per year, it would still be several times greater than the world's #2 spender, China. Just another gov't. bureaucracy playing the doomsday card to try to prevent any cuts from its bloated budget.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,867
Last seen: 11 hours, 20 minutes
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil] 2
#16259476 - 05/20/12 08:41 PM (1 year, 17 hours ago) |
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I agree with Enlil on this thread. His arguments are correct.
Here's my observation on zappa. If you ever even suggest that anything the Government does might be good, his brain switches to "does not compute - must use ad hominem attacks" mode.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
 
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Enlil
LIL-9000
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 11,408
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That wasn't what I was suggesting at all...I am all for cutting defense spending....and I couldn't care less how many jobs are lost because of it...
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Ask a defense attorney
Fuck the Amish
Rail_Gun said, "And those kids in CT deserved to die and I'm glad they're dead. I am glad that the survivors will have to "live with it" too. hahaha"
Listerine said, "i want genocide for most of africa"
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meams
Blessed
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 17,432
Loc: In a Tree
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Here's my observation on zappa. If you ever even suggest that anything the Government does might be good, his brain switches to "does not compute - must use ad hominem attacks" mode.
There are certainly "good things that the government does". However, there isn't anything "the government does good"
(grammer fairy says: there isn't anything the government does well. I left it as 'good' for the wording's sake)
Take my word for it. I've worked in government at the local and federal levels. Government employees are, on-the-whole (yes, there are exceptions), inherently lazy, and government processes are exceptionally inefficient.
TRUST ME. If you knew the federal acquisitions process, you'd be like "goddamn, thats so rediculous, how is it that we still manage to spend trillions every year?".
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thelivingfreekshow
Astro-Biologist
Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 1,810
Last seen: 4 days, 15 hours
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: meams]
#16259735 - 05/20/12 09:36 PM (1 year, 16 hours ago) |
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This ones getting good...
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Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 6,740
Last seen: 16 hours, 58 minutes
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
#16259793 - 05/20/12 09:54 PM (1 year, 16 hours ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Enlil said:
You're arguing against positions that I never took.
You went too far, counselor, when you said this, which I was kind enough to highlight for you
"Every dollar that is cut is one less dollar available to pay someone." The cascade of dollars is much more effective OUTSIDE the government than it is inside it.
This statement is 100% true and accurate within the context of how it was written...
For every dollar cut, there is one less dollar going to a paycheck...period...It isn't a matter of who is managing that dollar...if someone cuts a dollar from defense, some defense company has one less dollar to pay a worker...There's no inaccuracy there...
You're making some macro level argument about how dollars are better off in private hands...that's not the issue...I happen to agree with you on this. It is, however, a FACT that when defense budget is cut, that is less money going to people's paychecks...
I am more than happy to see 1.4 trillion dollars cut from many different things and let the unemployment rate skyrocket...it'll come around eventually. But to claim that cutting a dollar doesn't take it out of a paycheck is nonsense.
Not if that dollar came out of a paycheck in the first place. Every nickel the government spends was taken from someone else who couldn't spend it somewhere else. It is a zero sum game even in the short term. One guy not having a dollar that the government paid him means one guy having a dollar the government didn't take.
You know, over the years, I'm glad I haven't just ignored what you said. I still think you're a bastard, but then again if I lived in new york city I'd be stabbing people and tearing their eyes out.
I never like tax, it's just a fancy way of saying "give us your money or I'll cut you". It is taking money by force (don't believe me? don't pay your tax, see what happens) and just like a mugger on a street using my money to buy something with it that I don't want (like, bullets for a gun to hold up people with, heroin, a mobile phone) the government uses my money to fund wars to destablise countries I haven't even heard of which will then have a whole host of people angry and wanting to kill us, using more of my money on weaponised culture and entertainment (in the UK, we have a ministry of culture, paid by tax, to push an agenda) and spending my money on ugly shit I didn't want nor was I asked about, nor was anyone else asked about.
But when I want something, I'll go for it and buy it. If I want food, I find someplace that is not part of a mega international franchise, I'll spend it in a place where the people will take the money, and then it'll go around the community, yadda yadda.
I'm not going to agree with a whole lot of what you say, I think you have way too much invested in the system and I'm sure you'll ask yourself someday what's it all for when you can't take it with you, but by fuck you make a lot more sense than most "communism for everyone!" fantasists.
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Wiccan_Seeker said:
slide down a pole than with your legs spread and using your pussy as a brake. Ask the fire department 
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,867
Last seen: 11 hours, 20 minutes
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil] 1
#16259918 - 05/20/12 10:20 PM (1 year, 15 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
That wasn't what I was suggesting at all...I am all for cutting defense spending....
I was just saying your deficit logic was correct; I wasn't saying you were against spending cuts.
Quote:
Enlil said:
and I couldn't care less how many jobs are lost because of it...
You and I disagree about what we care about; that says a lot about the kind of person you are.
The trick is to fix the economy, THEN reduce the debt. There should NEVER be deficit spending when the economy is good.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 25,374
Loc: Street of Dreams
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
#16259936 - 05/20/12 10:24 PM (1 year, 15 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
That wasn't what I was suggesting at all...I am all for cutting defense spending....and I couldn't care less how many jobs are lost because of it...
But you are ignoring the jobs that would be created because of it though. The notion that we have a high military budget is just to make busy work so that their are more jobs is stupid. Economics doesnt work that way.
You say this, but its not quite true,
Quote:
For every dollar cut, there is one less dollar going to a paycheck...period
For every dollar cut there is one dollar going to a different paycheck. The money doesn't just go away...
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 1,867
Last seen: 11 hours, 20 minutes
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: DieCommie]
#16260051 - 05/20/12 10:42 PM (1 year, 15 hours ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
But you are ignoring the jobs that would be created because of it though.
For every dollar cut there is one dollar going to a different paycheck. The money doesn't just go away...
Obviously, neither you nor zappa were able to follow Enlil's arguement about deficits. No jobs would be created without increasing the deficit further. And increasing the deficit isn't what people want to do right now.
As he said, if there were no debt, THEN we could either use that extra money to pay for tax cuts or to improve roads,schools, etc. thereby creating jobs.
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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
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DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 25,374
Loc: Street of Dreams
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You can do that with debt too though. 
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