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 Az0th
quantum transfiguration
 
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 53,483
Loc: The Void 
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I don't think Zimmerman is impartial either, his story doesn't add up. He claims there was a big struggle, that Martin got on top of him, put his knees on his arms to pin him down, that Martin was punching him repeatedly. The funeral director who prepared Trayvon's body said he saw NO indication of any evidence of Martin punching anyone, no bruises, or anything that would support that story. All he saw was the gunshot wound.
The evidence does not corroborate with the story.
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~Thought Creates Reality~
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,217
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: trayvon martin shooting  [Re: Az0th]
#16012447 - 03/29/12 09:38 AM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Pretty good video here. Lots of contradictions with his statement.
The only thing it contradicts is Zimmerman's lawyer's claim that his nose was broken. That doesn't look like a broken nose in the video. Exaggeration doesn't help Zimmerman's case any more than Martin's parents' lies about the school suspension, Martin's drug use/sales, and Martin's burglaries helps theirs.
Doesn't look very beat up to me.
Doesn't matter. Blood can be wiped up by the paramedics that attended to Zimmerman on the scene. The arresting officer stated clearly that Zimmerman's:
1: back was wet
2: back was covered in grass
3: nose was bleeding
4: back of head was bleeding
That ties three independent information sources coherently together, Zimmerman, the eye witness, and the arresting officer. All are consistent with the available physical evidence. All three have given statements consistent with each other.
Only Zimmerman's lawyer has said anything about a "broken nose" which I'm not buying based on the video. He should stop exaggerating and stick to the truth like very few in this thread have been doing.
Funny that the police didn't even bother to question her.
Funny you don't realize (or maybe you do but ignore it anyway) that the police had no way of knowing she'd been on the phone with Martin because Martin was dead when they got there. Her account came out the next day.
The investigators will certainly interview her and subpoena the tape, if they haven't already.
Witness' mom says police told her Trayvon Martin shooting wasn't self-defense
Mom wasn't there. Neither was my cousin. Are we to give my cousin's testimony weight in this case? And her claim that the police told her "it wasn't self-defense" is patently ridiculous. How does the police know it wasn't self-defense if the investigation is still underway?
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 16,578
Loc: Americas
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Az0th]
#16012451 - 03/29/12 09:39 AM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Shroomism said:
The mom is speaking for the son because he's a minor.
So what? That has nothing to say about whether luvdemshrooms rejection of the statement was reasonable. Nothing at all.
Quote:
In case you haven't noticed they don't put minors on TV to tell what they saw.
No, I haven't noticed that. I've been on television several times as a minor, without parental consent or waiver.
I don't see what this allegation has to do with the matter either. The mother doesn't even claim to have witnessed the case, and I doubt the infromation relayed was a quotation rather than a summation, conclusion, or other worthless bit of hearsay without the slightest indicia of reliability.
Quote:
Shroomism said:
Why are you trolling? I think eyewitness testimony is pretty applicable to the case.
What evidence of bad faith or other nefarious motive do you use to come to the conclusion that this poster is trolling? I see none.
Quote:
Shroomism said:
I don't think Zimmerman is impartial either
So what? You say this yet don't base any relevant argument on this claim. The shooter does not bear the burden of proof.
edit:
Quote:
Not Quite Social said:
Quote:
It really makes me more confident in my view when those holding the opposing view are both so adamant yet resort to dishonest tactics and irrelevant appeals.
Confidence in your view should be based on facts and reasons and how they cohere to form your view. Admitting that your confidence in your view is based to any degree on other people's use of "dishonest tactics and irrelevant appeals" shows how unhinged you are from the actual issue; it shows you're more invested in winning the argument than the truth of the topic at hand. It shows you're more interested in scoring against your oppenent than in the integrity of your perspective. You jumped into this thread to win an argument because to your stated way of thinking that gives you more confidence in your view: like I said, this is unhinged--this is the flaw in partisan thinking. Btw, Zimmerman murdered an innocent black teenager.
You claim its unreasonable to gain confidence in my view due to the lack of relevant rebutal or a positive case for the arrest/guilt of the shooter, yet you don't even make an argument to that effect.
I think its quite reasonable to have a greater confidence in one's position after testing it in the crucible of debate and finding the other side virulently opposed yet completely incapable of discussing the matter on the facts.
There appears no solid reason for anyone to presume the shooter's guilt based on teh publicly known evidence, and I can't see a compelling reason to arrest him unless you seek to violate the fifth amendment right to liberty of the shooter.
Edited by johnm214 (03/29/12 09:54 AM)
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Enlil
LIL-9000
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 11,431
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Az0th] 2
#16012466 - 03/29/12 09:44 AM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Shroomism said:
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/28/10909475-witness-mom-says-police-told-her-trayvon-martin-shooting-wasnt-self-defense
Mother of one of the witnesses claims the shooting was not self defense
That isn't eyewitness testimony...and how is a witness qualified to determine whether or not it was self-defense...that's a legal conclusion.
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Ask a defense attorney
Fuck the Amish
Rail_Gun said, "And those kids in CT deserved to die and I'm glad they're dead. I am glad that the survivors will have to "live with it" too. hahaha"
Listerine said, "i want genocide for most of africa"
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,867
Loc: underbelly
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Az0th]
#16012467 - 03/29/12 09:44 AM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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I don't have a problem with all this speculation. It's interesting and the one thing I've gathered here from it is that anyone here who claims to know anything for sure is truly fos and biased.
I truly can say from all the conflicting testimony that I can't tell who the guilty party is. My guess is they both made some serious mistakes but that may well not be a good enough excuse for one person being dead. 
So I'm continuing to keep and open mind on this issue.
How boring of me.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Enlil
LIL-9000
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 11,431
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Vahunter]
#16012472 - 03/29/12 09:46 AM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Vahunter said:
The girlfriend wasn't there either and she is by far not impartial. No evidence from that phone call without a recording will not be excepted in court.
Not true...She absolutely could testify about what she heard.
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Ask a defense attorney
Fuck the Amish
Rail_Gun said, "And those kids in CT deserved to die and I'm glad they're dead. I am glad that the survivors will have to "live with it" too. hahaha"
Listerine said, "i want genocide for most of africa"
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 24,848
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Az0th]
#16012474 - 03/29/12 09:49 AM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Shroomism said:
I don't think Zimmerman is impartial either, his story doesn't add up.
I haven't seen enough evidence to reach a conclusion either way, which is why I think it's so sad that many are ready to lynch Zimmerman.
There's likely not a single person here that would want to be convicted of anything based on what we know so far.
Yet so many wanting to tar and feather a guy who at best can be said (so far) to be a dumb-ass.
People that know him (including blacks) say he's not a racist, yet many here are sure he is.
In the 50ish previous calls this guy made to 911 he never fired a shot, yet many here are sure he's a murderer. Some have even said words to the effect of Zimmerman hunted or chased Martin down.
Some are claiming Zimmerman was told not to get out of his vehicle, when the transcript shows very clearly that he was not.
It's pathetic.
You're innocent until proven guilty in this country, yet if it were up to many he'd have already been hung.
Pathetic.
Edit: Removed extra "of".
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“In politics, few talents are as richly rewarded as the ability to convince parasites that they are victims. Welfare states on both sides of the Atlantic have discovered that largesse to losers does not reduce their hostility to society, but only increases it. Far from producing gratitude, generosity is seen as an admission of guilt, and the reparations as inadequate compensation for injustices – leading to worsening behavior by the recipients.
Thomas Sowell
Edited by luvdemshrooms (03/29/12 09:59 AM)
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Enlil
LIL-9000
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 11,431
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: johnm214]
#16012484 - 03/29/12 09:51 AM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
So what? You say this yet don't base any relevant argument on this claim. The shooter does not bear the burden of proof.
Actually, he does with respect to the self-defense claim...
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Ask a defense attorney
Fuck the Amish
Rail_Gun said, "And those kids in CT deserved to die and I'm glad they're dead. I am glad that the survivors will have to "live with it" too. hahaha"
Listerine said, "i want genocide for most of africa"
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 24,848
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Icelander]
#16012499 - 03/29/12 09:55 AM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
So I'm continuing to keep and open mind on this issue.
Bastard! You know that racist stalking murdering pig is guilty!
String him up!
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“In politics, few talents are as richly rewarded as the ability to convince parasites that they are victims. Welfare states on both sides of the Atlantic have discovered that largesse to losers does not reduce their hostility to society, but only increases it. Far from producing gratitude, generosity is seen as an admission of guilt, and the reparations as inadequate compensation for injustices – leading to worsening behavior by the recipients.
Thomas Sowell
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 16,578
Loc: Americas
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#16012512 - 03/29/12 10:01 AM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
So what? You say this yet don't base any relevant argument on this claim. The shooter does not bear the burden of proof.
Actually, he does with respect to the self-defense claim...
Only after the prosecution proves the elements of the offense(s) though- correct? The statements of potential defense witnesses may be biased or flat out unbelievable, but that doesn't relieve the prosecution of their duty to prove whatever crime they charge.
The most common offense I've heard spoken of is murder, and it sure seems like the prosecution would have a decent hurdle to meet to demonstrate the elements of that offense given the apparently short time frame and calm demeanor of the shooter prior to the violent confrontation.
Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
You're innocent until proven guilty in this country, yet if it were up to many he'd have already been hung.
Pathetic.
Edit: Removed extra "of".
Exactly.
And since when is it a crime to not listen to some dispatcher (even had they instructed the shooter to follow the individual)?
Its pretty disgusting how people seem ready to presume someone culpable for the death of another because they didn't blindly follow the suggestion of some telephone jocky. I certainly wouldn't listen to those people- their advice is worthless in many cases. They're usually poorly trained people that at best can repeat requests for information and walk you through basic medical treatment you should know anyways. (and often if the person needs urgent attention its better just drive them to the hospital yourself with someone else applying fore to wounds/respirating for the victim, et cet- though in the majority there's no difference at all).
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Enlil
LIL-9000
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 11,431
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: johnm214]
#16012565 - 03/29/12 10:20 AM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Only after the prosecution proves the elements of the offense(s) though- correct? The statements of potential defense witnesses may be biased or flat out unbelievable, but that doesn't relieve the prosecution of their duty to prove whatever crime they charge.
The most common offense I've heard spoken of is murder, and it sure seems like the prosecution would have a decent hurdle to meet to demonstrate the elements of that offense given the apparently short time frame and calm demeanor of the shooter prior to the violent confrontation.
Absent his self-defense claim, this is a slam dunk murder conviction. The kid was shot with his gun...he admits he shot the kid intentionally...That's murder. It doesn't need much time...even premeditated murder only requires a few seconds of cool headed thought...and 2nd deg murder doesn't even require that.
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Ask a defense attorney
Fuck the Amish
Rail_Gun said, "And those kids in CT deserved to die and I'm glad they're dead. I am glad that the survivors will have to "live with it" too. hahaha"
Listerine said, "i want genocide for most of africa"
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 setb
Stranger
Registered: 01/30/11
Posts: 1,209
Last seen: 3 hours, 59 minutes
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#16012573 - 03/29/12 10:24 AM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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"The wise know their weakness too well to assume infallibility; and he who knows most, knows best how little he knows." - Thomas Jefferson
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,217
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: jimbotron]
#16012614 - 03/29/12 10:35 AM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Clean up? That would be kinda weird to let him 'clean up' on the way from a crime scene to the station, wouldn't it?
Zimmerman received first aid on the scene from paramedics. Why is it so hard to believe that part of that included wiping off blood in order to examine any injuries? And the video shows:
1. There's a gash or mark on Zimmerman's head.
2. One of the police officers stopped to look at the back of Zimmerman's head for several seconds. Why would he do that if not to evaluate if a trip to the hospital or other first-aid should be administered?
Or did you also not watch the video and made up your mind in absentia because watching the actual video might show you something that undermines your pre-conclusion?
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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Not Quite Social
Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,336
Loc: Midwest
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#16013054 - 03/29/12 12:34 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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johnm214 said:
Quote:
Only after the prosecution proves the elements of the offense(s) though- correct? The statements of potential defense witnesses may be biased or flat out unbelievable, but that doesn't relieve the prosecution of their duty to prove whatever crime they charge.
The most common offense I've heard spoken of is murder, and it sure seems like the prosecution would have a decent hurdle to meet to demonstrate the elements of that offense given the apparently short time frame and calm demeanor of the shooter prior to the violent confrontation.
To which Enlil replied:
Quote:
Absent his self-defense claim, this is a slam dunk murder conviction. The kid was shot with his gun...he admits he shot the kid intentionally...That's murder. It doesn't need much time...even premeditated murder only requires a few seconds of cool headed thought...and 2nd deg murder doesn't even require that.
So, as a non-lawyer, it occurs to me to ask:
What bearing would Zimmerman's recorded statement, "These assholes always get away" plus his decision to hurdle the suggestion to stop pursuing Martin plus his decision not to take the dispatcher's suggestion to meet the police at a designated location, but, rather, he asks them to contact him by phone--how would this statement and these decisions factor into (1) a claim of self-defense, and (2)a murder case against him if Zimmerman cannot prove self-defense?
To my way of thinking, Zimmerman shows a hostile bias against Martin as the foundation for a couple decisions to pursue Martin that show a reckless disregard for suggestions made by the dispatcher to avoid a confrontation. Shooting Martin fits the pattern of bias and reckless decisions.
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The People's History
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,867
Loc: underbelly
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#16013115 - 03/29/12 12:47 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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On another note, Obama had no business weighing in before all the evidence has been made available and a jury trial. A completely prejudiced ignorant move on his part.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 24,848
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Icelander]
#16013123 - 03/29/12 12:49 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Are you saying Obama "acted stupidly"?
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“In politics, few talents are as richly rewarded as the ability to convince parasites that they are victims. Welfare states on both sides of the Atlantic have discovered that largesse to losers does not reduce their hostility to society, but only increases it. Far from producing gratitude, generosity is seen as an admission of guilt, and the reparations as inadequate compensation for injustices – leading to worsening behavior by the recipients.
Thomas Sowell
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,217
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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his decision not to take the dispatcher's suggestion
Well, I'm glad, if a little surprised, that you're starting to think on the facts EXACTLY as they stand instead of what you've done in so many other posts where you cook and spin them first before accepting them.
There's hope for you after all.
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,867
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Are you saying Obama "acted stupidly"?
I'm saying if I needed another reason not to trust him (and I don't) I have it.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,867
Loc: underbelly
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#16013167 - 03/29/12 12:58 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
his decision not to take the dispatcher's suggestion
Well, I'm glad, if a little surprised, that you're starting to think on the facts EXACTLY as they stand instead of what you've done in so many other posts where you cook and spin them first before accepting them.
There's hope for you after all.
I saw that corner turned a few posts ago. Now if we can just deal with the issue itself and what actual information we have maybe we can get to a best guess on what happened. Frankly however I'm less sure then when I started. Maybe a good thing.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Not Quite Social
Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,336
Loc: Midwest
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#16013197 - 03/29/12 01:05 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Diploid,
I never was one of those who said Zimmerman was outright told not to follow Martin. The suggestion was always there, though, and you can hear Zimmerman's brain slowly grinding as he decides he'd rather be contacted by phone than meet the police at an assigned spot--he wanted to apprehend the kid; he didn't want 'another asshole to get away'.
There. Back to the old me for you. How about that for some "cook and spin"?
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The People's History
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