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 Cervantes
Devil's Advocate
 
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 15,812
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill 
Last seen: 25 minutes, 51 seconds
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:
Cervantes said:
It is a moot point.
It's really not.
Do go on...
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I know you think you understand the words I have just said to you but, what you fail to realize is, what you thought I said is not what I actually meant by saying what I said, when I said it.
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 Enlil
LIL-9000
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 11,389
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 Re: trayvon martin shooting  [Re: zappaisgod]
#16144272 - 04/26/12 10:02 PM (1 year, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
What do you think sentenced to hard labor for murder is?
Punishment
Slavery is punishment. Punishment doesn't preclude slavery. In fact it can often include it. Like in the above example.Quote:
No, and now that I know you're in favor of humans owning other humans, I don't much care what you think about the topic.
I don't much care about what you think, either. Especially since you can't make a cogent argument. You seem to think it is not slavery to force someone to labor for the state, which was not the victim, but is slavery to labor for the actual victim. L'etat, uber alles!Quote:
Quote:
You didn't answer the questions.
I have now, massa.
You don't own the language, Gunga Din. People get sentenced to restitutional labor all the time. Graffiti vandals have to wash subway cars. Numerous other examples abound. Are they slaves? Are not fines, by your dopey definition, slavery?
My definition of slavery is simple...it is the ownership of a human being by another human being...I've never said that forcing someone to pay or to do something is slavery...
You love a good straw man though...
You are the one that said that you are okay with people owning other people...
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Ask a defense attorney
Fuck the Amish
Rail_Gun said, "And those kids in CT deserved to die and I'm glad they're dead. I am glad that the survivors will have to "live with it" too. hahaha"
Listerine said, "i want genocide for most of africa"
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Not Quite Social
Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,336
Loc: Midwest
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#16144766 - 04/26/12 11:58 PM (1 year, 21 days ago) |
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I still think that if you keep them in a cage you own them, and that is a slippery slope and cousin to slavery.
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The People's History
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Cervantes
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 15,812
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill
Last seen: 25 minutes, 51 seconds
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And therefore Trayvon deserved to die...
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I know you think you understand the words I have just said to you but, what you fail to realize is, what you thought I said is not what I actually meant by saying what I said, when I said it.
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Enlil
LIL-9000
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 11,389
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Cervantes] 1
#16145797 - 04/27/12 06:28 AM (1 year, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said:
And therefore Trayvon deserved to die...
We all deserve to die...I don't think that was ever at issue here.
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Ask a defense attorney
Fuck the Amish
Rail_Gun said, "And those kids in CT deserved to die and I'm glad they're dead. I am glad that the survivors will have to "live with it" too. hahaha"
Listerine said, "i want genocide for most of africa"
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Enlil
LIL-9000
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 11,389
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said:
I still think that if you keep them in a cage you own them, and that is a slippery slope and cousin to slavery.
You really don't see the difference between locking someone up to protect society and owning them?
If you own a person, you can harvest their organs and sell them...you can terminate their life at will...you can skin them and make a pillowcase out of them...
Putting someone in jail isn't the same thing at all...
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Ask a defense attorney
Fuck the Amish
Rail_Gun said, "And those kids in CT deserved to die and I'm glad they're dead. I am glad that the survivors will have to "live with it" too. hahaha"
Listerine said, "i want genocide for most of africa"
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Not Quite Social
Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,336
Loc: Midwest
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#16146066 - 04/27/12 09:56 AM (1 year, 21 days ago) |
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I wouldn't harvest my dog's organs of make a pillowcase out of her.
It could be a semantic thing, but if you agree I own my dog because I choose to keep it confined to my home and yard, because I choose what it eats and when, because I do not allow her to freely associate, unsupervised, with other dogs, because I can punish her if she growls at the kids or soils the carpet, because I put her in a crate at night or a fenced run during the day, because I make all the major life decisions and circumscribe all the daily activities of my dog ... if you can say all this about my dog and say the same about a prisoner, surely a dog is a prisoner and a prisoner has an owner and master. I think if you do not understand a prisoner, or even a dog, in this way then you have become acculturated to be so comfortable with owning another being that you don't recognize it for what it is; you try to excuse and deny the barbarity of it.
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The People's History
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Enlil
LIL-9000
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 11,389
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said:
I wouldn't harvest my dog's organs of make a pillowcase out of her.
It could be a semantic thing, but if you agree I own my dog because I choose to keep it confined to my home and yard, because I choose what it eats and when, because I do not allow her to freely associate, unsupervised, with other dogs, because I can punish her if she growls at the kids or soils the carpet, because I put her in a crate at night or a fenced run during the day, because I make all the major life decisions and circumscribe all the daily activities of my dog ... if you can say all this about my dog and say the same about a prisoner, surely a dog is a prisoner and a prisoner has an owner and master. I think if you do not understand a prisoner, or even a dog, in this way then you have become acculturated to be so comfortable with owning another being that you don't recognize it for what it is; you try to excuse and deny the barbarity of it.
You COULD kill your dog whenever you want...you COULD harvest it's organs...you COULD do anything you want to that dog because you own it...
The government CAN'T do anything it wants to prisoners...
That's a key difference...
When you own a person, a dog, or a car, you are free to do with it what you wish...A person in prison has constitutional rights...
I'm not sure you're getting the difference...and I think I'm done explaining it to you.
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Ask a defense attorney
Fuck the Amish
Rail_Gun said, "And those kids in CT deserved to die and I'm glad they're dead. I am glad that the survivors will have to "live with it" too. hahaha"
Listerine said, "i want genocide for most of africa"
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,795
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said:
I wouldn't harvest my dog's organs of make a pillowcase out of her.
It could be a semantic thing, but if you agree I own my dog because I choose to keep it confined to my home and yard, because I choose what it eats and when, because I do not allow her to freely associate, unsupervised, with other dogs, because I can punish her if she growls at the kids or soils the carpet, because I put her in a crate at night or a fenced run during the day, because I make all the major life decisions and circumscribe all the daily activities of my dog ... if you can say all this about my dog and say the same about a prisoner, surely a dog is a prisoner and a prisoner has an owner and master. I think if you do not understand a prisoner, or even a dog, in this way then you have become acculturated to be so comfortable with owning another being that you don't recognize it for what it is; you try to excuse and deny the barbarity of it.
You really don't own your dog as a slave either due to laws on how you must treat them. It's close though but not the same.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Not Quite Social
Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,336
Loc: Midwest
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#16146152 - 04/27/12 10:32 AM (1 year, 21 days ago) |
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Society CAN do whatever it wants. US Society, by and large CHOOSES to follow a Constitution of its own making. YOU are nobody to EXPLAIN anything to me--WE are having a discussion, and you are free to go away. If you think you're giving me a lesson, you misconstrue the nature of a discussion forum.
[Edit: I deleted a link and quote because I was unfamiliar with the source and now I am not sure I want to be associated with it]
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The People's History
Edited by Not Quite Social (04/27/12 11:40 AM)
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Enlil
LIL-9000
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 11,389
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Icelander]
#16146162 - 04/27/12 10:35 AM (1 year, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
You really don't own your dog as a slave either due to laws on how you must treat them. It's close though but not the same.
That's not true...It was illegal to beat slaves in many antebellum southern states...
There are many rules about gun ownership too...ways in which you can and can't modify them...how they must be stored and transported...does that mean you don't own the gun?
The bottom line is that when a human is chattel..they are a slave...Zappa believes that humans should be made chattel if they steal property from another person...Therefore, he thinks people who steal should be made into slaves..
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Ask a defense attorney
Fuck the Amish
Rail_Gun said, "And those kids in CT deserved to die and I'm glad they're dead. I am glad that the survivors will have to "live with it" too. hahaha"
Listerine said, "i want genocide for most of africa"
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Not Quite Social
Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,336
Loc: Midwest
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Icelander]
#16146165 - 04/27/12 10:37 AM (1 year, 21 days ago) |
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Okay, so, Icelander, you don't think I own my dog ... well, at least that's logically consistent with not owning prisoners.
I think I own my dog.
By the way, Enlil, the state does kill people. Even then, the state doesn't own them (God forbid) before killing them? Absurd.
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The People's History
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Enlil
LIL-9000
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 11,389
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said:
Society CAN do whatever it wants. US Society, by and large CHOOSES to follow a Constitution of its own making. YOU are nobody to EXPLAIN anything to me--WE are having a discussion, and you are free to go away. If you think you're giving me a lesson, you misconstrue the nature of a discussion forum.
As a matter of fact, I am in a position to explain constitutional law to you...after all, you are not nearly as educated as I am on the subject...
And the 13th amendment is only part of the Constitution. The Constitution protects prisoners from all kinds of abuses...Yes...it could be changed, and has been a couple of dozen times in 220+ years...
The Constitution, however, provides no rights to chattel...Dogs have no rights...Cars have no rights...
Even laws that are meant to protect animals from cruely aren't based on a right which the dog enjoys...they are based on a societal interest in not having dogs abused...Nonetheless, you can execute your dog at any time for any reason or no reason at all...
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Ask a defense attorney
Fuck the Amish
Rail_Gun said, "And those kids in CT deserved to die and I'm glad they're dead. I am glad that the survivors will have to "live with it" too. hahaha"
Listerine said, "i want genocide for most of africa"
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Enlil
LIL-9000
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 11,389
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said:
Okay, so, Icelander, you don't think I own my dog ... well, at least that's logically consistent with not owning prisoners.
I think I own my dog.
By the way, Enlil, the state does kill people. Even then, the state doesn't own them (God forbid) before killing them? Absurd.
The state can kill people under the constitution...but only if they are duly convicted beyond a reasonable doubt of A PARTICULAR SET OF CRIMES...And guess what? After they kill them, they can't distribute the organs...you know why? BECAUSE THEY DON'T OWN THEM.
You can destroy your property FOR NO REASON AT ALL...that includes killing your dog..
You don't see the difference between the two?
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Ask a defense attorney
Fuck the Amish
Rail_Gun said, "And those kids in CT deserved to die and I'm glad they're dead. I am glad that the survivors will have to "live with it" too. hahaha"
Listerine said, "i want genocide for most of africa"
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Not Quite Social
Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,336
Loc: Midwest
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#16146211 - 04/27/12 10:59 AM (1 year, 21 days ago) |
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Enlil said:
Quote:
As a matter of fact, I am in a position to explain constitutional law to you...after all, you are not nearly as educated as I am on the subject
This may be true, but surely your ability to discuss a topic is not strictly limited to your understanding of the US Constitution; and, the Consitituion does not define reality for me or for most of the planet, including the majority of prisoners and dogs.
Anyway, my mind is turning to the possibility of one argument, possibly, having some merit: the idea that a person chooses his society and therefore agrees to the benefits and penalties--it's a stretch because then you would be arguing that a person willingly becomes a slave, and that kinda doesn't make sense; it kinda shows that the person doesn't really accept a contract with society.
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The People's History
Edited by Not Quite Social (04/27/12 11:01 AM)
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Enlil
LIL-9000
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 11,389
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You seem to think that being compelled to do certain things makes one a slave, while being compelled to do other things does not...
You mention that compelling someone to stay in a cage...eat at certain times, etc makes them a slave...
Yet people are compelled to do all kinds of things in life...and you don't think they are slaves...
There is no clear line of how much compulsion makes someone a slave...that's why using compulsion as the deciding factor when determining if someone is a slave is not a useful method.
The ownership theory is much clearer...If you are owned...you are a slave...if you are not owned, you are not a slave...
Of course, then you argue that prisoners are owned because someone has SOME POWER over them...but that's the same as the compulsion argument...for you, some compulsion is acceptable and doesn't imply ownership...other compulsion does imply ownership....
For me, it's clear...ownership means the discretion to transfer or destroy your property at will...Of course, no one has this discretion over prisoners in the US....therefore, they are not owned...and are not slaves.
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Ask a defense attorney
Fuck the Amish
Rail_Gun said, "And those kids in CT deserved to die and I'm glad they're dead. I am glad that the survivors will have to "live with it" too. hahaha"
Listerine said, "i want genocide for most of africa"
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Not Quite Social
Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,336
Loc: Midwest
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Quote:
You don't see the difference between the two?
You're saying the Constitution confers personhood on people, not dogs, and limits the way people treat people, but does not limit the way people treat dogs, because, you and the Consititution believe that people have rights and dogs do not; therefore, anything you do to a person, if it is permitted by the Consititution, cannot be analogous to what is done to a dog, because, even if you treat both the exact same way, one has rights and the other doesn't. Ha, ha! A lot of good those rights do prisoners on death row. Poor puppies, the Constitution doesn't aknowledge your right to life, but I hold and pet and love you, anyway. It seems of secondary importance to the lived reality of prisoners and dogs whether, conceptually, a prisoner has rights and a dog has none, according to a Constitution.
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The People's History
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Enlil
LIL-9000
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 11,389
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said:
Quote:
You don't see the difference between the two?
You're saying the Constitution confers personhood on people, not dogs, and limits the way people treat people, but does not limit the way people treat dogs, because, you and the Consititution believe that people have rights and dogs do not; therefore, anything you do to a person, if it is permitted by the Consititution, cannot be analogous to what is done to a dog, because, even if you treat both the exact same way, one has rights and the other doesn't. Ha, ha! A lot of good those rights do prisoners on death row. Poor puppies, the Constitution doesn't aknowledge your right to life, but I hold and pet and love you, anyway. It seems of secondary importance to the lived reality of prisoners and dogs whether, conceptually, a prisoner has rights and a dog has none, according to a Constitution.
That's what you believe...But, a prisoner on death row has many rights that a dog doesn't...When you decide to kill your dog, you take it out and shoot it if you want...
Most death row prisoners die of old age...You know why? Because of all of their rights that need to be looked after before they can be lawfully put to death....
You know what happens to most dogs in the pound? They are put to death...not one every month or so like in Texas...hundreds every day...
Again...if you don't see the difference, that's another issue...and I don't see the point in trying to get you to see the difference...and I'm done derailing this thread...at least for now.
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Ask a defense attorney
Fuck the Amish
Rail_Gun said, "And those kids in CT deserved to die and I'm glad they're dead. I am glad that the survivors will have to "live with it" too. hahaha"
Listerine said, "i want genocide for most of africa"
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Not Quite Social
Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,336
Loc: Midwest
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Ah, there it is:
Quote:
For me, it's clear ... ownership means the discretion to transfer or destroy your property at will
For me ... it's not about transfer and destroy, it's about those last two words you gave, "at will"; to me ownership is about control. Yes there are degrees of control which do not amount to ownership, but, as I argued, the amount of control excercised over the daily activities of prisoners and dogs, their relationships, and their major life decisions clearly amounts to ownership.
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The People's History
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Not Quite Social
Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,336
Loc: Midwest
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I'm good, too. That's fine. We're done. 
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The People's History
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