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 johnm214
 
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 16,568
Loc: Americas
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 Re: trayvon martin shooting  [Re: schnauzer]
#16003647 - 03/27/12 03:10 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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My opinion of this case is rather undeveloped and unsure at this point, but I am disapointed that so many people are rushing to judgement when there is a nominal amount of evidence, at least, to support the claim that Zimmerman was being assaulted while or shortly before the shooting.
I'm further disgusted that so many people are calling on the police to arrest the shooter. An arrest of any kind should have nothing to do with guilt, ideally. It seems that the suspect has a reasonable claim to have been acting in self defense and to not be a flight risk, as well as a reasonable claim to have not violated any serious law. I don't see what advantage would be served by arresting him, other than punishment without due process (which is what many seem to be asking for).
I'm unsure what happened, but based on the facts now stated, I doubt I would convict the man, and would support the decision to not arrest the guy. I don't really care about the racial allegations and elements- they seem irrelevant to the first question of whether the man was shooting in self defense (unless the it can be show at trial that the shooter unlawfully initiated the assault and perhaps any demonstrable racism might be evidence of his tendency to do so).
I'm pretty disgusted also with people who seem to think it acceptable to convict one of murder because he a) followed someone, b) didn't follow the implied suggestion of a 911 operator
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On a personal note, I have been accosted by "neighborhood watch" style idiots and generally find them a disagreeable and prejudiced sort (as to youth). I also find it somewhat troubling that I've heard black people on the radio claiming to have been pulled over for unclear reasons and that therefore racial bias was the cause. I have been the victim of many such stops and am not a member of a politically-sensitive minority group. I have little faith in the good will of the police to uphold the law per se, but can't conclude from the facts I'm aware of that the decision to not charge or arrest the shooter at the scene was unreasonable. I'm somewhat impressed the cops seemed to actually know what the damn law was, actually.
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Therian
Stranger
Registered: 03/04/09
Posts: 570
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Therian]
#16003654 - 03/27/12 03:12 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Lol ... I love how you guys revel in the senseless murder of an innocent teenager
How ironic is it that one whom so willingly exhibits their wanton ignorance and consistent refusal to accept factual data would have a pic of Einstein as part of their sig?
Why even post if you are not going to address the facts of what happened? You continue to perpetuate lies and then attempt to discredit those very lies,attempting to attribute them to this case,talk about the very definition of straw man.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,206
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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I love how you guys revel in the senseless murder of an innocent teenager.
Nobody is reveling in anything. That's you projecting because while this was certainly a senseless death, you are so emotionally invested in your summary conviction that you can't accept that the party ultimately responsible was the one who escalated a provocative encounter with an asshole into an assault of an asshole, if the witness testimony is accurate.
If Martin had simply walked away from the asshole instead of attacked him, as witnesses say, he would be alive today. I never cease to be amazed how blind people can be when their pet beliefs are contradicted by the facts.
You apply a double standard and are so biased you can't even see it. When you see Zimmerman do something asshole but legal, you think he's a monster for simply being an asshole. But when Martin ASSAULTS Zimmerman and bloodies his head and nose, he's an innocent "murdered boy". That he ATTACKED Zimmerman doesn't seem to ever enter into your equation.
Zimmerman provoked Martin, Martin assaulted Zimmerman. That's why he is dead. Because he attacked Zimmerman. Who provoked whom is not relevant. Provoking someone is stupid but it is legal. Assaulting someone is not. How can you not see that especially given that Martin apparently also assaulted a bus driver recently?
You're no better than Muslims who think nothing of a fellow Muslim blowing a little girl's head off in France, but pitch a fit when someone burns a book. Heads I win, tails you lose. No wonder the world is so fucked up.
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,831
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said:
Lol ... I love how you guys revel in the senseless murder of an innocent teenager.
QFI
(quoted for irrelevance.)
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Therian
Stranger
Registered: 03/04/09
Posts: 570
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#16003716 - 03/27/12 03:32 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
unlawfully initiated the assault and perhaps any demonstrable racism might be evidence of his tendency to do so).
Quote:
Zimmerman provoked Martin,
This is where I would disagree with you, Zimmerman QUESTIONED martin. If every time someone is questioned it is considered a provocation then every time someone is pulled over by the cops they could assault them. Or how about every time you are asked by a teacher or authority figure "did you see what happened" "What were you doing there?" etc. Every witness in this case could say they were "provoked by law enforcement" when they were questioned. But none of them decided to escalate it to a physical altercation, ending in their demise.
Trayvon could have said go fuck yourself, leave me alone, I'm gonna call the cops, or just walked away. But HE initiated the physical confrontation, and paid for it with his life, no fault but his own.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,206
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Therian] 1
#16003734 - 03/27/12 03:36 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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This is where I would disagree with you, Zimmerman QUESTIONED martin.
I agree. I'm being generous to the Martin camp to illustrate that EVEN IF Zimmerman provoked the encounter, that is not illegal and doesn't warrant a punch to the nose.
The illegal part began the moment Martin bloodied Zimmerman's nose, not before (assuming the witness testimony is correct).
Trayvon could have said go fuck yourself, leave me alone, I'm gonna call the cops, or just walked away. But HE initiated the physical confrontation, and paid for it with his life, no fault but his own.
Exactly.
If the reported assault of a bus driver is accurate, Martin was well capable of violence. If the eye witness accounts are correct, Martin initiated the violence and Zimmerman met violence with violence in self-defense.
If those facts are correct, this is an open and shut case of self-defense. New facts may change the calculus, and I'll accept them when/if they turn up, but so far, every new fact seems to solidify Zimmerman's claim of self-defense.
Call me a racist for wanting only the Truth, whatever it may be.
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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Vahunter
Sick of dumb ass people
Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 288
Loc: Georgia
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Icelander]
#16003736 - 03/27/12 03:36 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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^^ isn't that the truth. Don't worry, if this keeps simmering it going to roll into a boil sooner or later.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,831
Loc: underbelly
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Vahunter]
#16003812 - 03/27/12 03:54 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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I'll watch it on the news. 
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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 Baby_Hitler
Anarcho-Technologist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 21,404
Loc: To the limit! 
Last seen: 5 hours, 12 minutes
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Vahunter]
#16003839 - 03/27/12 04:00 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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I want to know if Zimmerman was brandishing his weapon when he approached Martin. If so, then I would say he provoked the attack.
I find it funny that the most neutral coverage I've seen on this so far is from last night's Daily Show and Colbert Report.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 24,810
Loc: Lost In Space
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said:
Lol ... I love how you guys revel in the senseless murder of an innocent teenager.
Except... no-one has.
Hyperbole is most definitely... not your friend.
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“In politics, few talents are as richly rewarded as the ability to convince parasites that they are victims. Welfare states on both sides of the Atlantic have discovered that largesse to losers does not reduce their hostility to society, but only increases it. Far from producing gratitude, generosity is seen as an admission of guilt, and the reparations as inadequate compensation for injustices – leading to worsening behavior by the recipients.
Thomas Sowell
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Not Quite Social
Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,336
Loc: Midwest
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Vahunter]
#16003880 - 03/27/12 04:10 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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To be clear, Yes or No:
(1) The witness saw Martin strike Zimmerman
(2) The witness saw Martin over Zimmerman who was on the ground
(3) The witness saw Martin initiate the physical confrontation
(4) The witness saw Zimmerman initiate the physical confrontation
Zimmerman pursued an innocent teenager prior to the physical altercation. Martin was fleeing. Martin may have defended himself against an armed aggressor, and died doing so. Please provide a source for your answers to numbers 3 and 4; otherwise, based on some of what some of you have written, some of you seem invested in the notion that Martin was the aggressor despite the factual circumstances. To rational people, one who flees conflict has a better claim to self defense than one who unjustifiably initiates and pursues conflict.
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The People's History
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,206
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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I want to know if Zimmerman was brandishing his weapon when he approached Martin.
That would change everything.
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,831
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
Baby_Hitler said:
I want to know if Zimmerman was brandishing his weapon when he approached Martin. If so, then I would say he provoked the attack.
I find it funny that the most neutral coverage I've seen on this so far is from last night's Daily Show and Colbert Report.
I would agree. There's a lot I'd like to know. It's too bad that it will likely be long in coming because the longer this goes on the more likely trouble is to come of it.
I grew up near Detroit during the riots of 1967. It spilled over to my town in the form or riots at our high schools. We got closed down for a week at one point. But most of the damage was done to the getto areas which made little sense to me except that it was the safest place to let out some rage.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Not Quite Social
Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,336
Loc: Midwest
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Luvdemshrooms,
The repeated derogatory use of the word "negro" and flippant phrases such as "they'll get a self-defense bullet whether they're packing Skittles or not" are just two of many examples of reprehensible transgressive delight in the death of the black teen.
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The People's History
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Not Quite Social
Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,336
Loc: Midwest
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Quote:
That would change everything.
Really? How? I understand Zimmerman's gun was openly displayed in a holster on his belt. At what point is it "brandished"? Keep in mind, Zimmerman was chasing the innocent teenager at night.
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The People's History
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,206
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Please provide a source for your answers to numbers 3 and 4
(3) The witness saw Martin initiate the physical confrontation
I don't think any witness has claimed to have seen the INITIATION of the confrontation. What the witness claims to have seen is Martin already on top of Zimmerman who was on his back in the grass and getting punched in the face. This is corroborated by the arresting officer who reported Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and back of the head and had a wet back covered in grass.
(4) The witness saw Zimmerman initiate the physical confrontation
Again, no witness I'm aware of saw the INITIATION of the confrontation. It was already underway when the witness got there.
otherwise, based on some of what some of you have written, some of you seem invested in the notion that Martin was the aggressor despite the factual circumstances.
I'm not invested in that position, but I favor it at the moment because of its plausibility based on the following three notions:
1. Zimmerman claims that he lost sight of Martin, turned to walk back to his car, then Martin walked up from Zimmerman's rear-left. Zimmerman further claims that Martin asked Zimmerman "Do you have a problem?". Zimmerman said "No." Then Martin then said "Well, you do now", then he attacked Zimmerman. This is Zimmerman's testimony as I understand it.
2. The eye witness said Martin was on top of Zimmerman. If Zimmerman assaulted Martin first (by punching or grabbing), his 100# weight advantage would have been hard for Martin to defend against, let alone take down Zimmerman. If Zimmerman was the aggressor by first pointing the gun at Martin, then I doubt Martin would have been able to gain the advantage as reported by the eye witness because that's hard to do with a gun already pointing at you. The most plausible way for Martin to end up on top of Zimmerman punching his nose seems to be by surprising Zimmerman whose gun was holstered at the time. The element of surprise might plausibly account for Martin gaining the upper hand against someone with a 100# weight advantage.
3. Perhaps most importantly, Martin appears to have assaulted a bus driver just a few days before the events in Sanford took place. If this is true, then it's one of the most compelling bits of information that give solid plausibility to the notion that Martin was in fact the aggressor.
To rational people, one who flees conflict has a better claim to self defense than one who unjustifiably initiates and pursues conflict.
That may or may not be true, but it is not relevant in this case. What is relevant is the letter of the law, which in Florida, allows someone to stand their ground and meet force with force if attacked.
I agree with you in principle that had Zimmerman run away from Martin's attack (if that's how it actually went down) then this might not have happened. But I don't necessarily believe that Zimmerman COULD have run away if Martin went on the offensive. Zimmerman is overweight while Martin was athletic. Zimmerman didn't stand a chance in a foot race. And the bottom line is that he isn't required to run under the law. An asshole following you and asking you questions justifies you yelling at him, calling him names, calling the cops on him, running away, and a thousand other things, but it does not justify you attacking him.
Assholishness != Violence.
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,831
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said:
Quote:
That would change everything.
Really? How? I understand Zimmerman's gun was openly displayed in a holster on his belt. At what point is it "brandished"? Keep in mind, Zimmerman was chasing the innocent teenager at night.
Was he chasing? Who exactly said that and used that word besides you?
I've heard he was following this young man but this is the first time I've heard chasing.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,206
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Really? How?
It changes everything because under the SYG law, it is illegal to brandish a weapon. That's why it's called a CONCEALED weapon permit. Part of getting licensed to carry is a requirement you pass a gun safety course, demonstrate proficiency with the weapon, and pass a gun law course so you're fully informed on the details of what you can and can't do and how you're obliged to carry the weapon.
I understand Zimmerman's gun was openly displayed in a holster on his belt.
Link?
If that were the case, the police would have arrested him on the spot. It is a felony. In fact, you can't even carry in a way that the gun "prints" from under your shirt. It must be COMPLETELY concealed.
When I carry, it's in a holster clipped to my belt, but INSIDE my pants to ensure it cannot print on my t-shirt.
Looks like this:
See how the gun goes inside the belt in the padded holster with the clip on the belt from inside?
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,831
Loc: underbelly
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#16004023 - 03/27/12 04:45 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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The american flag adds flair. 
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Vahunter
Sick of dumb ass people
Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 288
Loc: Georgia
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Icelander]
#16004055 - 03/27/12 04:53 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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The man doesn't deserve to be presumed guilty, that's all it comes down to. In this country it's innocent until proven guilty, unless it has something to do with race. Then it's "we have to make an example of this fool" and Jessie Jackson and al sharpton come out with their droves of racists and the black panthers start making threats and putting bounties of people's heads. The longer this goes on the more I hope shit gets out of control. Obama will lose and shit will be put in check. Its been along time coming.
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