|
 bananaman
thinker
Registered: 01/24/12
Posts: 303
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 1 day, 20 hours
|
 Are geniuses born smart?
#15810574 - 02/14/12 08:10 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
|
|
People like Einstein, Telsa, Freud,and Sagan. And what about polymaths like Isaac Newton and da Vinci? and creative geniuses like Bach, Mozart and even Steve Jobs(LSD?) and Steven Spielberg? Are these people born gifted? Maybe genetics? Perhaps disorders such as Aspergers played a part for some?
Or were these people just average joes who worked their asses off to achieve a higher level of intelligence/creativity?
Or maybe a combination of both?
OR maybe some people are born with an incredible ability to concentrate and absorb information like sponges?
What sets these people apart and how did they get there?
I also realize that there hasn't been much research into what causes genius but what do you people think?
--------------------
X___________________
Edited by bananaman (02/14/12 08:16 PM)
|
 DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,836
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: bananaman]
#15810619 - 02/14/12 08:16 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
|
|
No, I dont think they were average joes. They had both I reckon, above average nature and nurture. There have been others with the biological hardware that toiled in fields, and there have been normal or below average intelligence make important contributions with above average nurture.
But the super geniuses had both.
|
Breadnbutterfly86
Religion limits human potential
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 840
Loc: Wonderland
Last seen: 16 hours, 46 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: DieCommie] 2
#15810682 - 02/14/12 08:27 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
|
|
environment plays a lot. once a person is introduced to something in which they have potential, they can pursue. if that introduction is never made then they play whatever they are 2nd best or 3rd best and so on... biological "wiring" and how they are introduced to "things".
--------------------
"Don't just do something, stand there!" -Mr. Rabbit-
Breadnbutterfly
|
bananaman
thinker
Registered: 01/24/12
Posts: 303
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 1 day, 20 hours
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: DieCommie]
#15810728 - 02/14/12 08:36 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
|
|
I can see how nurture/environment definitely plays a part. But it's the nature ("biological wiring") part that really intrigues me, but it also is disappointing to think about because I know that my nature is not even close to that of a genius. I mean I can study, read, and try to comprehend as much as I can until the day I die, but I will never be anywhere close to Carl Sagan. But thats just one perspective
--------------------
X___________________
|
Breadnbutterfly86
Religion limits human potential
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 840
Loc: Wonderland
Last seen: 16 hours, 46 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: bananaman]
#15810740 - 02/14/12 08:38 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
|
|
it's an accident. timing. miracle.... however you wanna look at it. i mostly say accident.
--------------------
"Don't just do something, stand there!" -Mr. Rabbit-
Breadnbutterfly
|
nooneman
Stranger
Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 2,897
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: bananaman]
#15810741 - 02/14/12 08:38 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
|
|
No, but I think they probably had way above average persistence.
|
Breadnbutterfly86
Religion limits human potential
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 840
Loc: Wonderland
Last seen: 16 hours, 46 minutes
|
|
i could be wrong... but thats just how i view it.
--------------------
"Don't just do something, stand there!" -Mr. Rabbit-
Breadnbutterfly
|
bananaman
thinker
Registered: 01/24/12
Posts: 303
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 1 day, 20 hours
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: nooneman]
#15810776 - 02/14/12 08:44 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
|
|
Are they born with the "above average persistence"?
If not how can I brush up my persistence/concentration?
--------------------
X___________________
|
nooneman
Stranger
Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 2,897
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: bananaman]
#15810782 - 02/14/12 08:45 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
bananaman said:
Are they born with the "above average persistence"?
I think so.
Quote:
If not how can I brush up my persistence/concentration?
If only I knew! I'd be the most persistent person ever.
Edited by nooneman (02/14/12 08:45 PM)
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,836
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: bananaman]
#15810796 - 02/14/12 08:47 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
bananaman said:
If not how can I brush up my persistence/concentration?
Practice. Get your nose in a book for a few hours everyday. Many get professional training via college and the like.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: DieCommie]
#15810809 - 02/14/12 08:49 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
|
|
I was a drooling idiot until just a few short years ago. Something to do with a meteor.
--------------------
This is your drain on brugs.
|
nooneman
Stranger
Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 2,897
|
|
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
I was a drooling idiot until just a few short years ago. Something to do with a meteor.
|
Breadnbutterfly86
Religion limits human potential
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 840
Loc: Wonderland
Last seen: 16 hours, 46 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: nooneman]
#15810814 - 02/14/12 08:50 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
|
|
they say practice makes perfect.... you can take that. OR i have thought NON practice makes perfect. not saying just give up, just dont over do it and have a fit.
--------------------
"Don't just do something, stand there!" -Mr. Rabbit-
Breadnbutterfly
|
bananaman
thinker
Registered: 01/24/12
Posts: 303
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 1 day, 20 hours
|
|
I think you got it. Factors that have to do with their nature ( creativity/ persistence) combined with environmental factors like how they are brought up give you an individual with potential. But it all has to come together perfectly hence the "accident."
--------------------
X___________________
|
Breadnbutterfly86
Religion limits human potential
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 840
Loc: Wonderland
Last seen: 16 hours, 46 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: bananaman]
#15810830 - 02/14/12 08:53 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
|
|
almost, if not, everything is an accident...
--------------------
"Don't just do something, stand there!" -Mr. Rabbit-
Breadnbutterfly
|
bananaman
thinker
Registered: 01/24/12
Posts: 303
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 1 day, 20 hours
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: nooneman]
#15810843 - 02/14/12 08:55 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
nooneman said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
I was a drooling idiot until just a few short years ago. Something to do with a meteor.
I don't get it 
--------------------
X___________________
|
4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 15 days, 19 hours
|
|
Actually, everything is a culmination of various possibilities correlated with probabilities.
--------------------
Live your Life! 
|
Breadnbutterfly86
Religion limits human potential
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 840
Loc: Wonderland
Last seen: 16 hours, 46 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: 4896744]
#15810857 - 02/14/12 08:58 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
iThink said:
Actually, everything is a culmination of various possibilities correlated with probabilities.
see... this man has "accidently" become a genius...
--------------------
"Don't just do something, stand there!" -Mr. Rabbit-
Breadnbutterfly
|
OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: bananaman]
#15810860 - 02/14/12 08:59 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
bananaman said:
Quote:
nooneman said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
I was a drooling idiot until just a few short years ago. Something to do with a meteor.
I don't get it
Don't feel bad. Only other geniusessesses get it.
--------------------
This is your drain on brugs.
|
bananaman
thinker
Registered: 01/24/12
Posts: 303
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 1 day, 20 hours
|
|
sad
--------------------
X___________________
|
Jwlst
Stranger
Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 1,037
Last seen: 8 hours, 9 minutes
|
|
Well from what I remember I was always a genius.
|
Breadnbutterfly86
Religion limits human potential
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 840
Loc: Wonderland
Last seen: 16 hours, 46 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: Jwlst]
#15811461 - 02/14/12 11:01 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
|
|
no man, happy. its the realization. people can improve their own potential. its just that these guys in the books had the "timing" however far back you want to take it and they took advantage of every second they could. they also dedicated their lives to their research. back in the day you could do that more so than today. our society is taking too much control nowadays. these guys had several titles such as; philosopher, scientist, psychologist, psychiatrist, neurologist, whatever... one man had several titles. back then you could do that. now each "field" has become so complex, they nearly force you to choose one path. and that path costs money and time. two things that the world has brought upon us that disgusts me ha. happy though, not sad. maybe some disappointment, but overall the realization is happy. 
--------------------
"Don't just do something, stand there!" -Mr. Rabbit-
Breadnbutterfly
|
venetianblinds
Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Rivière Miami du Lac 
|
|
a genius tends to relate those paths
--------------------
bearing the beams of love
The entire landscape is in no place at all
|
Breadnbutterfly86
Religion limits human potential
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 840
Loc: Wonderland
Last seen: 16 hours, 46 minutes
|
|
yea, more so than choose i suppose.
--------------------
"Don't just do something, stand there!" -Mr. Rabbit-
Breadnbutterfly
|
4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 15 days, 19 hours
|
|
Quote:
Breadnbutterfly86 said:
Quote:
iThink said:
Actually, everything is a culmination of various possibilities correlated with probabilities.
see... this man has "accidently" become a genius...
What?
--------------------
Live your Life!
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,604
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: bananaman]
#15812946 - 02/15/12 09:46 AM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
|
|
I'm a huge genius and it didn't have squat to do with my parents and definitely not their nurture.
I'm a self made genius by the extensive use of LSD when young.
Now piss off, all of you. 
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: bananaman]
#15812952 - 02/15/12 09:47 AM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
|
|
What is smart?
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,604
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15812967 - 02/15/12 09:51 AM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
|
|
Icelander
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 5,116
Loc: Between
Last seen: 1 day, 4 hours
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: Icelander]
#15813522 - 02/15/12 12:06 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
|
|
Haha, yah maybe you are THE Evil Genius 
Does it matter if a Genius is evil or not ?
|
4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 15 days, 19 hours
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx] 3
#15813565 - 02/15/12 12:18 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said:
What is smart?
What is what?
--------------------
Live your Life!
|
PatrickKn
Do Easy
Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 3,783
Last seen: 10 days, 2 hours
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#15813572 - 02/15/12 12:19 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
|
|
This kid has a lot to say about geniuses:
http://news.yahoo.com/boy-geniuss-book-reveals-life-college-age-8-075047170.html
Quote:
LOS ANGELES (AP) — The one thing 14-year-old Moshe Kai Cavalin dislikes is being called a genius.
All he did, after all, was enroll in college at age 8 and earn his first of two Associate of Arts degrees from East Los Angeles Community College in 2009 at age 11, graduating with a perfect 4.0 grade point average.
Now, at 14, he's poised to graduate from UCLA this year. He's also just published an English edition of his first book, "We Can Do."
The 100-page guideline explains how other young people can accomplish what Cavalin did through such simple acts as keeping themselves focused and approaching everything with total commitment. He's hoping it will show people there's no genius involved, just hard work.
"That's always the question that bothers me," Cavalin, who turned 14 on Tuesday, says when the G-word is raised. "People need to know you don't really need to be a genius. You just have to work hard and you can accomplish anything."
And maybe cut out some of the TV.
Although he's a big fan of Jackie Chan movies, Cavalin says he limits his television time to four hours a week.
Not that he lacks for recreational activities or feels that his parents pressured him into studying constantly. He writes in "We Can Do" of learning to scuba dive, and he loves soccer and martial arts. He used to participate in the latter sport when he was younger, winning trophies for his age group, until his UCLA studies and his writing made things a little too hectic.
Indeed one of the key messages of his book is to stay focused and to not take on any endeavor half-heartedly.
"I was able to reach the stars, but others can reach the 'Milky Way," he tells readers.
It was a professor at his first institution of higher learning, East Los Angeles City College, who inspired him, Cavalin says. He didn't like the subject but managed to get an A in it anyway, by applying himself and seeing how enthusiastic his teacher, Richard Avila, was about the subject.
Avila, he says, inspired him to write a book explaining his methods for success so he could motivate others.
It took four years to finish, in part because Cavalin, whose mother is Chinese, decided to publish it in Mandarin, and doing the translation himself was laborious.
Han Shian Culture Publishing of Taiwan put the book in print, and it did well in Taiwan, Singapore and Malaysia, as well as in several bookstores in Southern California's Asian communities. He then brought it out in English for the U.S. market.
Because of his heavy study load, Cavalin has had little opportunity to promote the book, other than a signing at UCLA, where he also lives in student housing with his parents and attends the school on a scholarship.
After earning his bachelor's degree, the math major plans to enroll in graduate school with hopes of eventually earning a degree.
After that, he's not so sure. He points out that he's still just barely a teenager.
"Who knows?" he says, chuckling at the thought of what lies ahead in adulthood. "That's a very distant future, and I'm pretty much planning for just the next few years. That's too far into the future for me to see."
--------------------
|
bananaman
thinker
Registered: 01/24/12
Posts: 303
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 1 day, 20 hours
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: PatrickKn]
#15813943 - 02/15/12 01:58 PM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Moshe is right. Enthusiasm has a lot to do with it. And maybe four hours of TV a week is the trick!!!
--------------------
X___________________
|
Breadnbutterfly86
Religion limits human potential
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 840
Loc: Wonderland
Last seen: 16 hours, 46 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15814035 - 02/15/12 02:23 PM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
iThink said:
Quote:
Breadnbutterfly86 said:
Quote:
iThink said:
Actually, everything is a culmination of various possibilities correlated with probabilities.
see... this man has "accidently" become a genius...
What?
i'm just messing around... you made the word accident make better sense.Quote:
xFrockx said:
What is smart?
do you really ask "what is" to anything? like seriously? i guess you can get away with it in some instances, but always?
--------------------
"Don't just do something, stand there!" -Mr. Rabbit-
Breadnbutterfly
|
OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: bananaman]
#15814093 - 02/15/12 02:42 PM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Moshe is right. Enthusiasm has a lot to do with it. And maybe four hours of TV a week is the trick!!!
Yes, because before TV geniuses were the norm.
--------------------
This is your drain on brugs.
|
bananaman
thinker
Registered: 01/24/12
Posts: 303
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 1 day, 20 hours
|
|
You're right. I could probably get my Ph. D in Storage Wars and my Masters in Seinfeld. Haha but you bring up a good point. Why else would old people be so smart. I mean, how many hours are wasted by your average joe on facebook and tv. I'll be the first to admit I need an intervention. Wasting time is addicting.
Edited by bananaman (02/15/12 02:52 PM)
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
|
|
Quote:
Breadnbutterfly86 said:
Quote:
xFrockx said:
What is smart?
do you really ask "what is" to anything? like seriously? i guess you can get away with it in some instances, but always?
Best get used to it, it's his standard debate tactic. 
--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
|
"do you really ask "what is" to anything? like seriously? i guess you can get away with it in some instances, but always?"
Care to answer the question or does it threaten your preconceieved notions too much?
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,836
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15814310 - 02/15/12 03:32 PM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Care to answer the question or does it threaten your preconceieved notions too much?
What notions, specifically, could that question possible threaten?
|
nootropic
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
Registered: 11/02/09
Posts: 616
Loc: graveyard
Last seen: 2 months, 12 days
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: DieCommie]
#15815222 - 02/15/12 06:14 PM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
separating nature and nurture is dumb.
--------------------
[quote]Oweyervishice said:
[quote]Icelander said:
What is at the bottom of it?[/quote]
Death anxiety? :flirt:[/quote]
|
Breadnbutterfly86
Religion limits human potential
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 840
Loc: Wonderland
Last seen: 16 hours, 46 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx] 1
#15816397 - 02/15/12 10:07 PM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said:
"do you really ask "what is" to anything? like seriously? i guess you can get away with it in some instances, but always?"
Care to answer the question or does it threaten your preconceieved notions too much?
what is a preconceieved notion? and what is a threat?
--------------------
"Don't just do something, stand there!" -Mr. Rabbit-
Breadnbutterfly
|
bananaman
thinker
Registered: 01/24/12
Posts: 303
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 1 day, 20 hours
|
|
Quote:
"Is," "is." "is" — the idiocy of the word haunts me. If it were abolished, human thought might begin to make sense. I don't know what anything "is"; I only know how it seems to me at this moment.
-Robert Anton Wilson
--------------------
X___________________
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: DieCommie]
#15817262 - 02/16/12 04:27 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
"What notions, specifically, could that question possible threaten?"
Any notion of what "smart" or intelligence is. It is one of those concepts that the more closely it is examined, the more it falls apart.
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
|
"what is a preconceieved notion? and what is a threat? "
So I take it it does threaten you?
A preconceived notion is an idea one has that one uses to filter evidence.
A threat is something that is external which presents obstacles to further continuance.
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: bananaman]
#15817270 - 02/16/12 04:29 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Ok then buddy, how do we know when something seems smart, even for just a moment? What is this appearance?
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15817271 - 02/16/12 04:30 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said:
A preconceived notion is an idea one has that one uses to filter evidence.
What's an idea?
--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: deCypher]
#15817284 - 02/16/12 04:37 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
I don't know.
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15817300 - 02/16/12 04:53 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
deCypher said:
What's an idea?
Quote:
xFrockx said:
I don't know.
Great, so your answer to his question was basically this: "A preconceived notion is a frozzmyrtlsqvt one has that one uses to filter the evidence."
If you answer similarly if I ask you what evidence, filter, or one is, then you might as well just answer any question someone gives you on here with pure gibberish.
Xythcfnno puynjkohgg fefefff niouhoupouq rtyhnv rihboeirh.
--xFrockx
--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
Breadnbutterfly86
Religion limits human potential
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 840
Loc: Wonderland
Last seen: 16 hours, 46 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: deCypher]
#15817326 - 02/16/12 05:04 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
deCypher said:
What's an idea?
Quote:
xFrockx said:
I don't know.
Great, so your answer to his question was basically this: "A preconceived notion is a frozzmyrtlsqvt one has that one uses to filter the evidence."
If you answer similarly if I ask you what evidence, filter, or one is, then you might as well just answer any question someone gives you on here with pure gibberish.
Xythcfnno puynjkohgg fefefff niouhoupouq rtyhnv rihboeirh.
--xFrockx
now i get it 
--------------------
"Don't just do something, stand there!" -Mr. Rabbit-
Breadnbutterfly
|
Breadnbutterfly86
Religion limits human potential
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 840
Loc: Wonderland
Last seen: 16 hours, 46 minutes
|
|
besides... icelander already answered you, you crazy frock
--------------------
"Don't just do something, stand there!" -Mr. Rabbit-
Breadnbutterfly
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,604
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx] 2
#15817332 - 02/16/12 05:06 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said:
I don't know.
Then STFU
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
Breadnbutterfly86
Religion limits human potential
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 840
Loc: Wonderland
Last seen: 16 hours, 46 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15817387 - 02/16/12 05:32 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said:
"What notions, specifically, could that question possible threaten?"
Any notion of what "smart" or intelligence is. It is one of those concepts that the more closely it is examined, the more it falls apart.
by the way did you not just answer "what is smart?" with intelligence anyway?
--------------------
"Don't just do something, stand there!" -Mr. Rabbit-
Breadnbutterfly
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: deCypher]
#15817860 - 02/16/12 08:42 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
It amazes me how you seem to think that the question not having any meaning can somehow permit the original statement to have meaning.
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: Icelander]
#15817866 - 02/16/12 08:42 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Why?
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
|
Did I?
If you know that I did, why ask?
But if you feel this way, why?
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,836
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15818026 - 02/16/12 09:23 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said:
"What notions, specifically, could that question possible threaten?"
Any notion of what "smart" or intelligence is. It is one of those concepts that the more closely it is examined, the more it falls apart.
That is pretty vague. Could you be more specific?
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,604
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15818091 - 02/16/12 09:38 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said:
Why?
Because the Iceman desires it.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15818383 - 02/16/12 10:56 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said:
It amazes me how you seem to think that the question not having any meaning can somehow permit the original statement to have meaning.
You obviously fail to comprehend my position since I think both the question and the answer have meaning... you're the one who's apparently stuck in the limbo of meaninglessness while unable to communicate anything but gibberish.
--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
 desert father
Stranger
Registered: 07/17/10
Posts: 851
Last seen: 5 minutes, 56 seconds
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: bananaman]
#15818508 - 02/16/12 11:33 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
first off you'd have to explain what are the requirements for genius, and how is genius measured.
otherwise i would say that genius is subjective, and thus a number of different personality qualities may be understood as "genius" qualities.
i believe that a man/woman is only as successful as the opportunities that which have presented themselves will allow him/her to be.
in a different way shape or form we are all genius, it's just finding what genius is to each one of us subjectively.
--------------------
i'm a loser and a user so i don't need no accuser
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,836
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
|
Quote:
first off you'd have to explain what are the requirements for genius, and how is genius measured.
otherwise i would say that genius is subjective, and thus a number of different personality qualities may be understood as "genius" qualities.
Otherwise? Those two notions are not exclusive of each other. Genius has requirements that must be met, those requirements are subjective. Our society has a rough metric which which we judge genius against, as every individual does. (except for xFrockx apparently)
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: DieCommie]
#15818785 - 02/16/12 12:34 PM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
It's not vague, its purposely general. I said any notion and I meant any notion. If you want examples then go ahead and provide notions, and I'll help you examine them.
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: deCypher]
#15818794 - 02/16/12 12:35 PM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
If that is your position then yes, I do fail to comprehend it.
How exactly do both the question and the statement possess meaning?
"you're the one who's apparently stuck in the limbo of meaninglessness while unable to communicate anything but gibberish"
Careful now, let's not tread into personalisms.
|
4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 15 days, 19 hours
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx] 2
#15818812 - 02/16/12 12:38 PM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
What's a personalism?
--------------------
Live your Life!
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: 4896744]
#15818830 - 02/16/12 12:40 PM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Good question.
|
4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 15 days, 19 hours
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx] 2
#15818839 - 02/16/12 12:41 PM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Do you have an answer? Why did you bring it up if you don't know what it is?
--------------------
Live your Life!
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: 4896744]
#15818866 - 02/16/12 12:46 PM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
"Do you have an answer?"
I have many answers, although none I would claim.
"Why did you bring it up if you don't know what it is?"
I fail to see how my motivations for bringing it up have anything to do with debating what I said. I would think that any argument here would be judged by its premises and by who brought it about. But if it helps you at all, I do not know why I brought it up if I don't know what it is. At the time I did, I seemed to have thought that I did know what it was, but on closer inspection, it seems that the idea that any insult could somehow hold personally to me seems odd, since I have no way to confirm or deny any of the many things that could be said about me, nor to judge my own character enough to recognize them as personal to me.
|
Breadnbutterfly86
Religion limits human potential
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 840
Loc: Wonderland
Last seen: 16 hours, 46 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx] 1
#15820388 - 02/16/12 06:37 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
|
|
genius is not necessarily an individual... it is the compilation of the individual's work. no?
--------------------
"Don't just do something, stand there!" -Mr. Rabbit-
Breadnbutterfly
|
bananaman
thinker
Registered: 01/24/12
Posts: 303
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 1 day, 20 hours
|
|
Quote:
Breadnbutterfly86 said:
genius is not necessarily an individual... it is the compilation of the individual's work. no?
I think genius is actually the individual's capacity for such work.
--------------------
X___________________
|
Breadnbutterfly86
Religion limits human potential
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 840
Loc: Wonderland
Last seen: 16 hours, 46 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: bananaman]
#15820647 - 02/16/12 07:33 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
|
|
yea thats what i was looking for....
--------------------
"Don't just do something, stand there!" -Mr. Rabbit-
Breadnbutterfly
|
bananaman
thinker
Registered: 01/24/12
Posts: 303
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 1 day, 20 hours
|
|
But the actual compilation of work is just as important because it proves that the genius is, in fact, a genius. I just wish I new what the secret is behind their capacity for intellect. Nurture? Nature? Can't really change those things. But like people were saying on here maybe reading for a couple hours every day could help. I just need to apply myself. Who knows? Maybe if I drink enough coffee I could be the next Voltaire.
--------------------
X___________________
|
Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,462
Last seen: 1 day, 8 hours
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: bananaman]
#15822222 - 02/17/12 03:59 AM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
|
|
I know people here say being a genius is all about hard work, but some of the hardest working people in the world are not eggheads.
This might not be a popular view but I've learned some people are just born with it. Geniuses are poster childs for eugenics. Too bad those into breeding programs forget the dangers of inbreeding, or think you can breed out poverty by killing everyone.
--------------------
|
Zanthius
Ideologist
Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,159
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: bananaman]
#15822264 - 02/17/12 04:41 AM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
bananaman said:
People like Einstein, Telsa, Freud,and Sagan. And what about polymaths like Isaac Newton and da Vinci? and creative geniuses like Bach, Mozart and even Steve Jobs(LSD?) and Steven Spielberg? Are these people born gifted? Maybe genetics? Perhaps disorders such as Aspergers played a part for some?
Well.... I would never think of either Steve Jobs or Steven Spielberg as geniuses. Especially after having seen a few episodes of Steven Speilberg's last series called Terra Nova, which to me seems to have been made by a retarded person. And as with everything in life there are both genetic and environmental influences. Thinking either genetics or environment is extremely black and white.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,639
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: bananaman]
#15822338 - 02/17/12 05:31 AM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
bananaman said:
Quote:
Breadnbutterfly86 said:
genius is not necessarily an individual... it is the compilation of the individual's work. no?
I think genius is actually the individual's capacity for such work.
I would add the term personal to the individual's capacity for such work (excluding S.Jobs who was a delegator);
and in so doing it would indicate genetic predisposition as with all other personal capacities;
and, as with all other heritable traits, the predisposition is not a guarantee of expression.
On top of that, as Moshe indicates - it does take application to wake up the brain.
As to what that trait is, my guess is more cerebral cortical surface in the wrinkles, so that fragments of experience may be more widely linked in memory.
Subtler details could emerge from the fabric of memory more readily if one has more cortical surface to work with, not necessarily larger brains or heads.
{edit: a metaphor}
the wider surface of cortical tissue is like vision of an eagle, one still needs a bit of effort to investigate what can be noticed, and one must not be lazy to climb back up to the eagle's perch.
--------------------
~~~~~
Edited by redgreenvines (02/17/12 05:42 AM)
|
bananaman
thinker
Registered: 01/24/12
Posts: 303
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 1 day, 20 hours
|
|
Quote:
Zanthius said:
Well.... I would never think of either Steve Jobs or Steven Spielberg as geniuses. Especially after having seen a few episodes of Steven Speilberg's last series called Terra Nova, which to me seems to have been made by a retarded person. And as with everything in life there are both genetic and environmental influences. Thinking either genetics or environment is extremely black and white.
I just looked up Terra Nova and Speilberg only produces it apparently (unfortunately). But I'm talking about all the great movies. I grew up watching Jaws, Indana Jones, ET, The Goonies, Jurassic Park, all those classics and then I finally realized (ignorant me) it was the same guy directing them and kind of went "whaaa?" Maybe thats why he's a genius in my books.
I can definitely see how Steve Jobs is more of a leader, innovator, yada yada yada...Quote:
redgreenvines said:
{edit: a metaphor}
the wider surface of cortical tissue is like vision of an eagle, one still needs a bit of effort to investigate what can be noticed, and one must not be lazy to climb back up to the eagle's perch.
How can one investigate their "eagle's perch"? Psychedelics?
--------------------
X___________________
|
Zanthius
Ideologist
Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,159
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: bananaman]
#15823311 - 02/17/12 12:06 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
bananaman said:
I just looked up Terra Nova and Speilberg only produces it apparently (unfortunately). But I'm talking about all the great movies. I grew up watching Jaws, Indana Jones, ET, The Goonies, Jurassic Park, all those classics and then I finally realized (ignorant me) it was the same guy directing them and kind of went "whaaa?" Maybe thats why he's a genius in my books.
The problem with identifying creative geniuses is that we all have different taste. A genius is mathematics, physics or chemistry will be recognized as a genius by most of the scientific community, but when it comes to music and movies we tend to consider the musicians and movie-makers we are most attracted to ourselves as geniuses. And what we are attracted to can differ a lot from individual to individual...
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,836
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: Zanthius]
#15823413 - 02/17/12 12:39 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
|
|
I dont think there is such a distinction. Scientists and mathematicians all have different taste too. If scientists and mathematicians define genius by a consensus of the community, the so can artists and performers.
|
bananaman
thinker
Registered: 01/24/12
Posts: 303
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 1 day, 20 hours
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: DieCommie]
#15823461 - 02/17/12 12:52 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Zanthius said:
Quote:
bananaman said:
I just looked up Terra Nova and Speilberg only produces it apparently (unfortunately). But I'm talking about all the great movies. I grew up watching Jaws, Indana Jones, ET, The Goonies, Jurassic Park, all those classics and then I finally realized (ignorant me) it was the same guy directing them and kind of went "whaaa?" Maybe thats why he's a genius in my books.
The problem with identifying creative geniuses is that we all have different taste. A genius is mathematics, physics or chemistry will be recognized as a genius by most of the scientific community, but when it comes to music and movies we tend to consider the musicians and movie-makers we are most attracted to ourselves as geniuses. And what we are attracted to can differ a lot from individual to individual...
Yes it is much much more difficult to label one as a creative genius. But I would say that there are still some creative geniuses that are widely appreciated and generally recognized as extraordinary.
I also believe that most of the time (if not nine times out of ten) someone who isn't a fan classical music, for example, can sit down and listen to Bach and eventually admit "this guy is freaking good." Even if a particular form of artwork does not satisfy one's taste, there is still is and should always be a general appreciation of the craftsmanship. But you're right I don't believe this applies as directly to someone like Speilberg as it does to Van Gogh, Mozart, etc...
--------------------
X___________________
|
Zanthius
Ideologist
Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,159
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: DieCommie]
#15823753 - 02/17/12 02:07 PM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
DieCommie said:
I dont think there is such a distinction. Scientists and mathematicians all have different taste too. If scientists and mathematicians define genius by a consensus of the community, the so can artists and performers.
What does taste have to do with mathematics, physics and chemistry? I can recognize people that are better than me in mathematics, physics, or chemistry. But that doesn't necessarily mean that I feel attracted to their equations, formulas and reaction mechanisms. There are clearly defined right and wrong answers in mathematics, physics and chemistry. Not so much in literature and philosophy. If you have an exam in mathematics, physics, or chemistry any professor will give you more or less the same grade. If you have an exam in literature or philosophy on the other hand, there will be much more variation in the grades given by different professors.
Edited by Zanthius (02/17/12 02:19 PM)
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,836
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: Zanthius]
#15823960 - 02/17/12 02:57 PM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
Im not talking about taking a test as a student. Im talking about the field of science and mathematics. Was Einstein a genius? Most scientists say yes, and that is what defined him as a genius. Not the theory of general relativity.
Was Van Gough a genius? Most artists would way yes, and this is what defines him as a genius. Not the peasants hands.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,639
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: bananaman]
#15823972 - 02/17/12 02:59 PM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
bananaman said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said:
{edit: a metaphor}
the wider surface of cortical tissue is like vision of an eagle, one still needs a bit of effort to investigate what can be noticed, and one must not be lazy to climb back up to the eagle's perch.
How can one investigate their "eagle's perch"? Psychedelics?
what I mean is
a larger domain is availiable to the born geniuses.
they can see more little issues to zoom down and latch onto ...
that is the eagle's dive (everyone does it the genius has a wider field).
after playing with their meal as it were they should get back up to the top again, not just loll around - most do loll. Not much can be said for it. After a bit of lolling, one forgets to even look any farther than the next guy.
Getting back up is not getting stoned (though that might be a part of things sometimes) --- it is an effort to understand the self and an effort to take in the whole picture, like an eagle does.
anyone can be such an eagle, you do not need to be a genius, but a genius has a wider field to make use of. How it is used makes the difference.
--------------------
~~~~~
|
bananaman
thinker
Registered: 01/24/12
Posts: 303
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 1 day, 20 hours
|
|
Quote:
redgreenvines said:
what I mean is
a larger domain is availiable to the born geniuses.
they can see more little issues to zoom down and latch onto ...
that is the eagle's dive (everyone does it the genius has a wider field).
after playing with their meal as it were they should get back up to the top again, not just loll around - most do loll. Not much can be said for it. After a bit of lolling, one forgets to even look any farther than the next guy.
Getting back up is not getting stoned (though that might be a part of things sometimes) --- it is an effort to understand the self and an effort to take in the whole picture, like an eagle does.
anyone can be such an eagle, you do not need to be a genius, but a genius has a wider field to make use of. How it is used makes the difference.
Wow, that's interesting. I never really thought of it like that.
But how do I become the eagle? I think I understand myself and can usually take in the whole picture? How can I stop lolling and get back to my perch? How can I change my everyday life?
--------------------
X___________________
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,604
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: bananaman]
#15824720 - 02/17/12 05:48 PM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
I wouldn't put much stock into the shit RGVs posts here. He takes drugs and he's married.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,639
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: bananaman]
#15825200 - 02/17/12 07:31 PM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
bananaman said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said:
what I mean is
a larger domain is availiable to the born geniuses.
they can see more little issues to zoom down and latch onto ...
that is the eagle's dive (everyone does it the genius has a wider field).
after playing with their meal as it were they should get back up to the top again, not just loll around - most do loll. Not much can be said for it. After a bit of lolling, one forgets to even look any farther than the next guy.
Getting back up is not getting stoned (though that might be a part of things sometimes) --- it is an effort to understand the self and an effort to take in the whole picture, like an eagle does.
anyone can be such an eagle, you do not need to be a genius, but a genius has a wider field to make use of. How it is used makes the difference.
Wow, that's interesting. I never really thought of it like that.
But how do I become the eagle? I think I understand myself and can usually take in the whole picture? How can I stop lolling and get back to my perch? How can I change my everyday life?
oddly I would recommend the theory of opposites,
it is as good an approach as any and my daughter tells me that it is often employed by gestalt therapy.
so to gain the eagle perspective, immerse in the mundane tasks of life with awareness, take it all in and keep setting back up what falls over.
so you immerse in mundanity to rise above it, immerse down to get up higher.
never mind that I like lsd, and am married, and have grown kids telling me about gestalt therapy techniques. never mind that I am making it up as I go along, these metaphorical words are good enough to smoke even if we did get off track about the geniuses just a smidgen.
--------------------
~~~~~
|
bananaman
thinker
Registered: 01/24/12
Posts: 303
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 1 day, 20 hours
|
|
Hehehe. Thanks for introducing me to Gestalt therapy.
Btw would you recommend LSD for movtivational perspective purposes? I mean could occasional use motivate one to learn and excel in subjects like psychology, neuroscience, philosophy, stuff like that?
--------------------
X___________________
Edited by bananaman (02/17/12 08:25 PM)
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,639
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: bananaman]
#15826700 - 02/18/12 03:57 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
it could or not,
depends on the personality,
some people thrive on the waking dream
others are encumbered by the unpredictability.
I like how it enforces a break from the norm - how it changes the familiar into the uber family.
so this medicine, for me, is more about getting off work, and getting off, rather than achieving something substantial. In the theory of opposites, that gives it a chance to work wonders.
--------------------
~~~~~
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
|
"these metaphorical words are good enough to smoke"
Actually no. They aren't.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,639
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15827442 - 02/18/12 10:34 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
well then you can't have any of my ashes
--------------------
~~~~~
|
Zanthius
Ideologist
Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,159
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: DieCommie]
#15827559 - 02/18/12 11:09 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
DieCommie said:
Im not talking about taking a test as a student. Im talking about the field of science and mathematics.
Well, IQ-geniuses are determined by tests rather than by consensus. If you score above 150 on a Mensa IQ-test you are a genius according to Mensa ( and if you score above 180 you are a genius according to me ). Similar tests could be made to determine who is a genius in mathematics, physics, or chemistry. A test with incredibly complex questions about mathematics, physics or chemistry would do fine. Could you make such a test to determine who is a creative art genius? I doubt it.
Quote:
DieCommie said:
Was Einstein a genius? Most scientists say yes, and that is what defined him as a genius. Not the theory of general relativity.
Was Van Gough a genius? Most artists would way yes, and this is what defines him as a genius. Not the peasants hands.
Do you really think the consensus of modern artists is as objective as the consensus of modern mathematicians? I am pretty sure that the consensus of modern mathematicians and modern scientists is the same in all countries, but I am not so certain that the consensus of modern artists is the same in all countries. Physicists from India and China will certainly agree that Einstein was a genius, but I am not so certain that artists from India and China will agree that Van Gogh was a genius. They probably put ancient Indian and Chinese artists from their own cultural heritage much higher than Van Gogh.
Edited by Zanthius (02/18/12 11:15 AM)
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,836
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: Zanthius]
#15827568 - 02/18/12 11:13 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Well, IQ-geniuses are determine by tests rather than by consensus.
The test is constructed by the consensus of the psychologists. Its not an objective test, its subjective to the consensus of the test authors.
Quote:
Do you really think the consensus of modern artists is as objective as the consensus of modern mathematicians?
No, its the opposite. I think the consensus of modern artists are as subjective as the consensus of modern mathematicians.
|
Zanthius
Ideologist
Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,159
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: DieCommie]
#15827578 - 02/18/12 11:16 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
DieCommie said:
No, its the opposite. I think the consensus of modern artists are as subjective as the consensus of modern mathematicians.
Really? So theorems based on purely deductive reasoning are as subjective as paintings.
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,836
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: Zanthius]
#15827588 - 02/18/12 11:19 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Zanthius said:
Quote:
DieCommie said:
No, its the opposite. I think the consensus of modern artists are as subjective as the consensus of modern mathematicians.
Really? So theorems based on purely deductive reasoning are as subjective as paintings.
No, whether said theorem is worthy of being labeled genius is as subjective as whether said painting is worthy of genius.
What does deductive reasoning have to do with it?
|
Zanthius
Ideologist
Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,159
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: DieCommie]
#15827615 - 02/18/12 11:27 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
DieCommie said:
No, whether said theorem is worthy of being labeled genius is as subjective as whether said painting is worthy of genius.
Theorems have hierarchy of complexity. If you are able to make a theorem that solves a complex problem in mathematics that nobody has been able to solve before you, you surely must be a mathematical genius. In oder to be recognized as an art-genius, you need to become popular in the art community. And if you become popular or not has just as much to do with coincidences and marketing as with how good your art is.
Edited by Zanthius (02/18/12 11:56 AM)
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,836
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: Zanthius]
#15827622 - 02/18/12 11:29 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
If you are able to make a theorem that solves a complex problem in mathematics that nobody has been able to solve before you, you surely must be a mathematical genius.
?? Surely? That's simply a subjective metric that mathematicians could use to determine genius.
(BTW, I have never once heard of that criteria for being a mathematical genius ever.)
|
Zanthius
Ideologist
Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,159
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: DieCommie]
#15827658 - 02/18/12 11:44 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
DieCommie said:
?? Surely? That's simply a subjective metric that mathematicians could use to determine genius.
(BTW, I have never once heard of that criteria for being a mathematical genius ever.)
If you are able to solve any of these problems I am quite certain that you will be considered a mathematical genius by the mathematics community.
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,836
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: Zanthius]
#15827661 - 02/18/12 11:45 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
So what? That doesnt support either of our claims.
Actually, it may support my claim since you said yourself - its the mathematics community that would consider me a genius.
Edited by DieCommie (02/18/12 11:47 AM)
|
Zanthius
Ideologist
Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,159
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: DieCommie] 1
#15827705 - 02/18/12 11:58 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
DieCommie said:
Actually, it may support my claim since you said yourself - its the mathematics community that would consider me a genius.
Well, I can very clearly define how to find mathematical geniuses, or geniuses in physics or chemistry. You cannot clearly define how to find art-geniuses.
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,836
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: Zanthius]
#15827777 - 02/18/12 12:09 PM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Zanthius said:
Well, I can very clearly define how to find mathematical geniuses, or geniuses in physics or chemistry. You cannot clearly define how to find art-geniuses.
Sure I can. Just like you can with math and science genius, its defined by consensus in the community.
There is no objective metric that claims this theorem is worthy of genius while that one is not. Or that general relativity is worthy of genius but the debroglie hypothesis is not. Those distinctions are made up by the opinions of people in the field.
|
Zanthius
Ideologist
Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,159
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: DieCommie]
#15827878 - 02/18/12 12:31 PM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
DieCommie said:
There is no objective metric that claims this theorem is worthy of genius while that one is not.
I think that all theorems above a certain level of complexity are worthy genius, and I think a hierarchy of theorem-complexity is widely agreed upon in the mathematical community. Any mathematician will for example agree that the poincaré conjecture is more complex than the pythagorean theorem.
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,836
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: Zanthius]
#15827890 - 02/18/12 12:35 PM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I think that all theorems above a certain level of complexity are worthy genius...
Right, that is your taste. That is why genius is a matter of taste. I would not think that all theorems above a certain level of complexity are worthy of genius. Sum together your opinion, mine, and the rest of humanities and you get a subjective metric to gauge genius against.
|
Zanthius
Ideologist
Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,159
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: DieCommie] 1
#15827898 - 02/18/12 12:38 PM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
DieCommie said:
I would not think that all theorems above a certain level of complexity are worthy of genius.
Do you really think that a person can be able to create and understand super complex mathematics and still not be a mathematical genius?
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,836
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: Zanthius]
#15827905 - 02/18/12 12:40 PM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Zanthius said:
Quote:
DieCommie said:
I would not think that all theorems above a certain level of complexity are worthy of genius.
Why not? Do you think that a person can be able to create and understand super complex mathematics, and still not be a mathematical genius?
I think that a person can come up with a complex theorem and not be a genius, yes. And I think that a person can be a mathematical genius and come up with no theorem at all.
Why not? Cant describe it, its a matter of taste. Like art. 
|
Zanthius
Ideologist
Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,159
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: DieCommie]
#15827921 - 02/18/12 12:44 PM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
DieCommie said:
I think that a person can come up with a complex theorem and not be a genius, yes.
Well, then your definition of a genius is very different from mine. The mathematician that understands and comes up with the most complex theorems is in my eyes the best mathematician. Just like the best organic chemist is the chemist that is able to synthesize the most complex molecules.
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,836
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: Zanthius]
#15827930 - 02/18/12 12:47 PM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Well, then your definition of a genius is very different from mine.
Thats the point Ive been trying to make all along. Everybody has a different definition of genius. There is no objective metric, there is only consensus opinion.
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,298
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx] 3
#15829805 - 02/18/12 08:54 PM (3 months, 8 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said:
I don't know.
Then why the fuck were you using the term in your post? This seems the epitomy of posting in bad faith.
If you don't have a concept you're trying to advance with your post, then don't make a post.
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
|
What ashes?
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: johnm214]
#15833148 - 02/19/12 04:02 PM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
|
|
Why are you so offended and telling me what to do?
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: DieCommie]
#15833166 - 02/19/12 04:05 PM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
|
|
"Thats the point Ive been trying to make all along. Everybody has a different definition of genius. There is no objective metric, there is only consensus opinion."
Well judging from the reactions to my saying I do not know what a genius is your comment here is obviously absurd. It seems everyone here knows what a genius is.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,604
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15833209 - 02/19/12 04:11 PM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
|
|
I am not a genius
I am a HUGE Genius.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15833213 - 02/19/12 04:12 PM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said:
Why are you so offended and telling me what to do?
He's giving you good advice on how to have proper debate with other people.
--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: deCypher]
#15833318 - 02/19/12 04:28 PM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
|
|
Oh? And what is proper debate?
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15833343 - 02/19/12 04:32 PM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
|
|
I can tell you it isn't someone using words in a post and then minutes later denying they know what those words mean. It's bad faith, pure and simple.
--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: deCypher]
#15833631 - 02/19/12 05:31 PM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
|
|
What is bad faith?
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15833752 - 02/19/12 05:49 PM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
|
|
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_faith
I swear, your posts might as well be written by a robot that randomly picks a word from what it's responding to and asks "what is " followed by the word and a question mark. 
--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: deCypher]
#15834295 - 02/19/12 07:02 PM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
|
|
So you think I am being some sort of fraud just because I changed my mind?
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15834305 - 02/19/12 07:04 PM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
|
|
No, I think your claim not to know the meaning of any word is belied by the fact that you use language for the most part correctly while posting here.
--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: deCypher]
#15834315 - 02/19/12 07:05 PM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
|
|
There is a correct way to use language?
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15834438 - 02/19/12 07:31 PM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
|
|
Yes. See a textbook on grammar for further information.
--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: deCypher]
#15836318 - 02/20/12 03:50 AM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
|
|
And how exactly is the established grammar correct? Is yours not just a argument from the masses? Do your English grammar books have any more authority than the mobs that buy and use them?
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,639
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15836337 - 02/20/12 04:04 AM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
|
|
how can you fight with ashes?
--------------------
~~~~~
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15836354 - 02/20/12 04:19 AM (3 months, 7 days ago) |
|
|
Again with the dishonest posting! You deny knowledge of correct grammar and yet you continue to employ it. 
--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
|
I'm fighting?
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: deCypher]
#15841278 - 02/21/12 04:15 AM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
|
|
You're the one being dishonest. I ripped your argument apart and now you're repeating yourself because people will agree with you, even though you have absolutely no rational basis for concluding:
1. That I am posting with proper grammar
2. That you know what proper grammar is
Until you can prove 1. and 2. you're just making appeals to the masses, and its not worth wasting my time repeating myself like you apparently find time to do.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,639
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15841351 - 02/21/12 05:03 AM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
|
|
yes, you most certainly are, no ashes for you
--------------------
~~~~~
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,604
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx] 4
#15841358 - 02/21/12 05:06 AM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said:
You're the one being dishonest. I ripped your argument apart and now you're repeating yourself because people will agree with you, even though you have absolutely no rational basis for concluding:
1. That I am posting with proper grammar
2. That you know what proper grammar is
Until you can prove 1. and 2. you're just making appeals to the masses, and its not worth wasting my time repeating myself like you apparently find time to do.
Does this mean you're leaving for good? Again?
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx] 2
#15841782 - 02/21/12 08:14 AM (3 months, 6 days ago) |
|
|
Actually my argument keeps getting proven with every post you're making. No appeal to the masses here, just the facts.
--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
Xeny
thug life baby
Registered: 02/15/08
Posts: 252
Loc: Berchem 
Last seen: 11 hours, 1 minute
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15846028 - 02/22/12 02:08 AM (3 months, 5 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said:
And how exactly is the established grammar correct? Is yours not just a argument from the masses? Do your English grammar books have any more authority than the mobs that buy and use them?
r t rd
stupid
--------------------
Not everything what was, is beyond
If i could show you, you would never leave it
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
|
Ok?
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: deCypher]
#15847894 - 02/22/12 02:10 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
|
|
"Actually my argument keeps getting proven with every post you're making. No appeal to the masses here, just the facts. "
You're either trolling or reaching epic levels of personal blindness. Ah I kid, what are epic levels of personal blindness? What is trolling?
You think you've got a proven point though. And that means you are FOS.
But what is full of shit?
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx] 2
#15848499 - 02/22/12 04:06 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
|
|
Well, I'd answer your questions but you wouldn't understand any of the words I'd use. 
--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: deCypher]
#15849795 - 02/22/12 08:17 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
|
|
Another fallacious argument, practically a personalism. Have you totally abandoned reason?
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15850458 - 02/22/12 11:05 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
|
|
Hey, I'm just going off the pattern of your posts wherein you constantly ask the meaning of the words that you or other people use.
--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,298
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx] 1
#15850971 - 02/23/12 03:28 AM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said:
So you think I am being some sort of fraud just because I changed my mind?
No, did anybody even say that?
What they, and I, said is that you post dishonestly, in bad faith. This is demonstrated by your use of terminology, accepted grammer, followed by posts wherein you ask others what those terms mean. This demonstrates that either you questions are dishonest, not legitimate requests for clarification of unknown concepts, or that you are making posts without attempting to convey an idea (as if you don't know what the terms you use mean, you cannot be using them to communicate an idea).
Neither is acceptable. I don't know what this "I changed my mind" question has to do with anything, but it seems a straw man since nobody actually suggested you did change your mind. Indeed, I think your posts are just pointless bullshit, and your carelessness revealed your bad faith.
Quote:
xFrockx said:
Why are you so offended and telling me what to do?
I allready told you why I was offended- because you continue to divert discussions to semantic crap using a method that your own posting has now revealed is disingenuous. Obviously if I'm telling you what to do its because I want you to do it- you're posts are annoying and pointless and the forum would be better off without them.
|
psychotropicwhale
Cetacean
Registered: 02/17/12
Posts: 756
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: johnm214]
#15851014 - 02/23/12 04:20 AM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
|
|
There are too many factors to narrow it down to one thing - parental intelligence, genetics, nutrition, etc. To the question of the original poster regarding aspergers: it is now believed that Einstein had it. Supposedly he didn't talk until he was 4 years old.
--------------------
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,639
|
|
do geniuses fight over crumbs?
--------------------
~~~~~
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: deCypher]
#15853283 - 02/23/12 03:13 PM (3 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Well there you go.
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: johnm214]
#15853315 - 02/23/12 03:19 PM (3 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
"No, did anybody even say that?"
Well accusing me of posting in bad faith is what it is I suppose. You can use whatever words you want, you're trying to say that because of things I have said that I must be doing something wrong, or knowingly attempting to post things which are misleading or disingenuous. Call it whatever you want. There seems to be a great deal of possibly undue offense towards me.
"Neither is acceptable. I don't know what this "I changed my mind" question has to do with anything, but it seems a straw man since nobody actually suggested you did change your mind. Indeed, I think your posts are just pointless bullshit, and your carelessness revealed your bad faith."
You think my posts are pointless bullshit? What is pointless bullshit? What is pointed non-bullshit? Are you full of shit?
"that you are making posts without attempting to convey an idea"
Why must I post with conveying an idea? What is posting with conveying an idea? Is that the only form of communication?
"I allready told you why I was offended- because you continue to divert discussions to semantic crap using a method that your own posting has now revealed is disingenuous. Obviously if I'm telling you what to do its because I want you to do it- you're posts are annoying and pointless and the forum would be better off without them."
What is semantic crap? What is non-semantic non-crap?
Do you feel some satisfaction in being able to confidently say I am disingenuous?
You think that my posts are annoying and pointless and that the forum would be better off without them. Is that so?
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,298
Loc: Americas
|
|
Quote:
redgreenvines said:
do geniuses fight over crumbs?
I bet crumby geniuses do
Quote:
xFrockx said:
"No, did anybody even say that?"
Well accusing me of posting in bad faith is what it is I suppose. You can use whatever words you want, you're trying to say that because of things I have said that I must be doing something wrong, or knowingly attempting to post things which are misleading or disingenuous. Call it whatever you want. There seems to be a great deal of possibly undue offense towards me.
I don't think its undue. This is an on topic forum for the discussion of particular ideas, those in the original post and those which arise along the way. As you appear to not be attempting to communicate a particular idea when submitting your posts, if your actions are presumed to be in good faith, then you fail to further these purposes and frutrate those who are attempting to in threads you intrude in.
Quote:
You think my posts are pointless bullshit? What is pointless bullshit? What is pointed non-bullshit? Are you full of shit?
Pointless bullshit is that without worth and that is invoked without a relevant intention, i.e. to debate the topic of the thread. I don't know what variations on this description have to do with anything, but I suppose pointed bullshit, if you mean bullshit with a point, would be something that is without worth but which is invoked for a particular purpose.
Quote:
Why must I post with conveying an idea? What is posting with conveying an idea? Is that the only form of communication?
If you are not conveying an idea, then you are not adding to the discussion. If you are not intending to do so, you are not posting in good faith- neither is acceptable socially or under the rules. I don't know the relevance, but no, posting with the intent to convey an idea is not the only form of communication.
Quote:
What is semantic crap?
Something of little worth relating to words or aspects of language, esp. trivial aspects
Quote:
What is non-semantic non-crap?
Clearly, then, non-semantic non-crap would be that which is not the above. I'm trying to presume good faith in your challenges here, but its kind of difficult when your succesive questions are duplicitous, especially given your history of asking frivolous questions.
Quote:
Do you feel some satisfaction in being able to confidently say I am disingenuous?
I said it so I must have derived some satisfaction in doing so, so yes.
Quote:
You think that my posts are annoying and pointless and that the forum would be better off without them. Is that so?
I believe I allread said this. I don't have an objection to your posts in general, only your semantic quibbling which never appears to go anywhere or further the purposes of the forum or thread. OTD or the pub would be a better place for that nonsense.Quote:
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: johnm214]
#15853598 - 02/23/12 04:11 PM (3 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
You realize that upon giving definitions for those terms he's only going to ask for the definition of the words you used in those definitions, right? It's a never-ending wankfest of semantic ignorance. 
--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,298
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: deCypher]
#15853792 - 02/23/12 04:46 PM (3 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
eh, like I said in the post, I'm trying to presume good faith in his questioning on what me issue with his nonsense is. Probably just cuz I get upset myself when someone dismisses my argument (if we're being charitable here) on grounds they won't justify.
Has Diploid said anything about his schtick yet? After this latest round, where he used various terms and then later, when you used them, asked what they meant, it seems pretty evident that he's posting in bad faith and thus bannable as a troll. Its hard for me to see how his question on what a term means could be justified since he had litterally just used the same term, correctly, himself in the same thread. 
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: johnm214]
#15853818 - 02/23/12 04:50 PM (3 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
I completely agree.
--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: johnm214]
#15854343 - 02/23/12 06:22 PM (3 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
So just because I use a word I must know what it means?
Ha!
How do you find this premise to be true?
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: deCypher]
#15854348 - 02/23/12 06:23 PM (3 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Trying to get me banned. Go fucking figure, I'm just glad you don't have access to hemlock.
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: johnm214]
#15854421 - 02/23/12 06:34 PM (3 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
"I don't think its undue."
Ok?
"This is an on topic forum for the discussion of particular ideas,"
Does discussion imply that I must have ideas to impart to you? Or can I discuss without wanting you to believe something I believe?
"As you appear to not be attempting to communicate a particular idea when submitting your posts, if your actions are presumed to be in good faith, then you fail to further these purposes and frutrate those who are attempting to in threads you intrude in"
So because I question people instead of posting ideas I am annoying to you and others? Is there meaningful, progressive, discussion without the clarification, critique, and even destruction of ideas?
"Pointless bullshit is that without worth and that is invoked without a relevant intention, i.e. to debate the topic of the thread. I don't know what variations on this description have to do with anything, but I suppose pointed bullshit, if you mean bullshit with a point, would be something that is without worth but which is invoked for a particular purpose."
So how do you determine which words have worth? Is your determination a universal determination?
"If you are not conveying an idea, then you are not adding to the discussion."
Is that so? And if you happen to be correct, (although it would seem the existence of my questions contradict that possibility), is adding to discussion the only way to involve oneself in discussion? Or am I not worthy?
"Something of little worth relating to words or aspects of language, esp. trivial aspects"
This is not what my questions are about. There is nothing trivial about my reasons for asking you or decypher any of the many questions I've asked, and if you disagree, I will be happy to clear up any specific questions you want to claim were trivial.
"I said it so I must have derived some satisfaction in doing so, so yes."
So you only say things that satisfy you?
"I believe I allread said this. I don't have an objection to your posts in general, only your semantic quibbling which never appears to go anywhere or further the purposes of the forum or thread. OTD or the pub would be a better place for that nonsense."
You don't think it is funny or ironic that you want me to leave the PSP forum for using what most would probably call Socratic method?
|
nootropic
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
Registered: 11/02/09
Posts: 616
Loc: graveyard
Last seen: 2 months, 12 days
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15854531 - 02/23/12 06:51 PM (3 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
--------------------
[quote]Oweyervishice said:
[quote]Icelander said:
What is at the bottom of it?[/quote]
Death anxiety? :flirt:[/quote]
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15854663 - 02/23/12 07:17 PM (3 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Yes, Frock, we are the Athenians and you are the contemporary Socrates.
Maybe your gadfly stings would be more effective if you didn't belie your purported lack of knowledge with every post you make. Socrates may have annoyed some of the people he talked to, but he wasn't disingenuous as he went about it.
--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: deCypher]
#15854670 - 02/23/12 07:18 PM (3 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
You're just on this kick of repeating yourself without answering my questions of your argument. Quite honestly, take it to M&P if you aren't willing to debate.
You claim I show knowledge with my postings? What is knowledge?
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15854678 - 02/23/12 07:20 PM (3 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said:
You're just on this kick of repeating yourself without answering my questions of your argument. Quite honestly, take it to M&P if you aren't willing to debate.
The only questions I've seen from you so far can be readily answered with the aid of a dictionary. I don't know about you, but copy-pasting from Merriam Webster every time someone demonstrates a lack of understanding about the meaning of a word doesn't really strike me as worthwhile debate.
--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: deCypher]
#15854795 - 02/23/12 07:40 PM (3 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said:
You claim I show knowledge with my postings?
I'm going to say this just one more time as I'm getting bored with this thread. You use words to answer questions people give you, and then deny that you know what those words mean. You employ correct grammar in every one of your posts, and then deny that you know what correct grammar is. Either A) you're being disingenuous and actually do know what the words mean and how to use grammar in order to construct a proper sentence (which I suspect is the case), or B) you hit your keyboard randomly and by some miraculous coincidence the resulting post (while remaining gibberish to you, who cannot discern between incorrect and correct syntax, let alone understand the meaning of simple terms) manages to use said words properly and with correct grammar.
If there is a third alternative, please enlighten me.
--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: deCypher]
#15854820 - 02/23/12 07:43 PM (3 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
"The only questions I've seen from you so far can be readily answered with the aid of a dictionary. "
What do you mean by "answered" Do you mean just that one can give an answer, or that one can give the correct answer?
"I don't know about you, but copy-pasting from Merriam Webster every time someone demonstrates a lack of understanding about the meaning of a word doesn't really strike me as worthwhile debate."
Well this is obviously what I want isn't it?
If you don't understand me, how about you ask me some questions. It is very jarring to have to be told I am this and that all because you don't understand. You seem to be almost deliberately misinterpreting me into someone who is more easily dispatched with harsh judgements and criticisms. Shit, I used to practically consider you a friend. Now I don't even recognize you.
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: deCypher]
#15854850 - 02/23/12 07:48 PM (3 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
I have asked this before to no avail, but let me ask again, as this assumption is vital to your criticism of me:
How exactly does the use of a word entail that one have knowledge of it's meaning?
And further, what exactly do you mean that I have knowledge of the meanings of words? Words can be used many different ways. Even within the context of what I post, meanings can be apparently sensical, but upon examination, be not so sensical, No? Do you disagree?
Well if you cut down all the trees there'd be no more wind.
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15854882 - 02/23/12 07:54 PM (3 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said:
"The only questions I've seen from you so far can be readily answered with the aid of a dictionary. "
What do you mean by "answered" Do you mean just that one can give an answer, or that one can give the correct answer?
Both.
Quote:
xFrockx said:
If you don't understand me, how about you ask me some questions.
I've understood everything you've posted in this thread except why you're using words when you don't understand what they mean and why you use correct grammar while denying you know it.
Quote:
xFrockx said:
How exactly does the use of a word entail that one have knowledge of it's meaning?
It doesn't necessarily. Hence why I included option B.
Quote:
xFrockx said:
And further, what exactly do you mean that I have knowledge of the meanings of words?
If you use a word to give an answer to someone, it's usually implied that you understand the meaning or definition of the word. If not then why would you spout gibberish?
Quote:
xFrockx said:
Even within the context of what I post, meanings can be apparently sensical, but upon examination, be not so sensical, No?
Can you give an example?
--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
cinic
Registered: 02/04/12
Posts: 586
Last seen: 8 days, 17 hours
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: deCypher]
#15854904 - 02/23/12 07:59 PM (3 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
deCypher: NO my dicks bigger
Frock: NUH UH my dick is way bigger
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: cinic]
#15854922 - 02/23/12 08:02 PM (3 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Where is the base? I don't really know how big my dick is, depends on where the ruler starts, if it's erect, temperature, humidity, barometric pressure, etc etc
I mean hell, what is my dick? Where is the line that divides my dick from my balls? My pubic area from my shaft? My waist from my pubic area? What is this notion that there is a thing such as a dick, such that it is somehow individuated from other things?
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15854935 - 02/23/12 08:04 PM (3 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said:
Where is the base? I don't really know how big my dick is, depends on where the ruler starts, if it's erect, temperature, humidity, barometric pressure, etc etc
How do you know you have a dick in the first place?
--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: deCypher]
#15854946 - 02/23/12 08:06 PM (3 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
edited for veracity
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx]
#15854953 - 02/23/12 08:07 PM (3 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
What is veracity?
--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: deCypher]
#15854994 - 02/23/12 08:14 PM (3 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
"Both."
In regards to questions about language, more specifically, the meanings of words, how does one ever know if they have answered correctly? And if your answer is a dictionary, how does one ever know that the dictionary is answering correctly?
"I've understood everything you've posted in this thread except why you're using words when you don't understand what they mean and why you use correct grammar while denying you know it."
Are you gonna ask why or just keep calling me names? If it helps at all I don't know why either.
"If you use a word to give an answer to someone, it's usually implied that you understand the meaning or definition of the word. If not then why would you spout gibberish?"
So all communication done without correct knowledge of a word is gibberish? Communication is either perfectly understood or totally meaningless? Is this not a false dichotomy you are suggesting here?
"Can you give an example?"
Just use what I said. What is sensical? I seem to have made up some qualifier about what I say, and I have not given any criterion for what is sensical. I have not shown that what is sensical to me is sensical to someone else. And I don't really have any answers for these.
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: deCypher]
#15855010 - 02/23/12 08:18 PM (3 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Its a word I like the sound of. Sometimes used to refer to truthiness. But I don't know what that is either, so really I don't know. I was being somewhat cheeky in saying my edit was "for veracity" as my edit was actually to further question what my dick was. Rather than adding "truth" I was actually further questioning. And it was in this way I was making a sort of sideways suggestion at the type of veracity I look for in my posts.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,604
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: xFrockx] 2
#15865355 - 02/26/12 07:50 AM (3 months, 1 day ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said:
Trying to get me banned. Go fucking figure, I'm just glad you don't have access to hemlock.
Delusions of Grander.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
Breadnbutterfly86
Religion limits human potential
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 840
Loc: Wonderland
Last seen: 16 hours, 46 minutes
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: Icelander]
#15870622 - 02/27/12 12:01 PM (3 months, 1 hour ago) |
|
|
you're just a crazy frock. thats all i can say...
--------------------
"Don't just do something, stand there!" -Mr. Rabbit-
Breadnbutterfly
|
TravelerOfSorts
sober pro
Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 41
Last seen: 1 month, 28 days
|
|
Sup brothers.
its a handicap like autism/aspergurs
im affected by knowing things that i shouldnt and understanding people and animals body language exceptionally.
im fully functioning but the right combination of drugs has slowed me down and locked alot of information away.
i know its there but have no way to recall it its the same as a drive city to city. only remember the person beside me and a few things along the way.
i can ask questions taht are increbibly fundemental and simple but cant wrap my head around something easy like. sanding a driveway it just takes a little longer. no was not born with that it was something there maybe but mdma/coke/mushrooms have skewn my preception of time and reeal things. something thats cool ill add as a tip that im working with now. get a cat cuz they can teach you the roots of yourself.
im playin myself even writing this because its not even 40% acurate. really..
this is what i deal with but heres another thing: when your eyes are open you arent missing anything just keep doing what your doing with good intentions. and the only real things that have stayed congruent in my mind for the last 2 years are time karma and attraction.
i would love to be taken along side a tema of revolutionary biologists. i would be like aristotle alongside them but.. what ever.... ill keep getting high smoking salvia embarassing myself and trying to get a girl. i do paintings also they are rather unique.!
peace ladies and gents love on and live undergroundhiphop. peace
--------------------
a soul of solitude
but a master of ecstacy
in waiting for my rebirth cycle i have hopes that when mushrooms find me it will occur then and i can go about the world as a medicine man
walking staff in one hand spaceship in the other
a journeyman of nature soon to be stepping up to novice hopefully i will have time to become an expert, and i believe only in death will i become a master
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,604
Loc: underbelly
|
|
BULLSHIT ALERT.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
Pacmanpth
Stranger
Registered: 01/29/11
Posts: 583
Last seen: 3 days, 23 hours
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: Icelander]
#15932626 - 03/11/12 09:05 AM (2 months, 18 days ago) |
|
|
The brain is extremely adaptable, so ultimately I would say it doesn't matter. High intelligence can be cultivated if it didn't come naturally, and it can be squandered if it did. Just depends how you spend your time. Genetics helps, but it only goes so far.
Creativity seems to play a huge role as well, if you do lots of activities which stimulate creativity, it seems to help significantly in coming up with novel solutions to issues. That combined with book smarts and philosophical/spiritual wisdom seems to create a mental environment best suited for sparking ideas which some people refer to as "genius".
--------------------
"Our careful scientific measurements show that many appear to have, technically speaking, lightened the hell up, as their neural pathways were groped by God  The Universe and licked by Mother Nature and gently whipped by the divine riding crop of their own deeper consciousness (see Fig. 3.7)."
|
teknix
ÐøøÐ
Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 4,734
|
Re: Are geniuses born smart? [Re: Pacmanpth]
#15933085 - 03/11/12 11:33 AM (2 months, 18 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Pacmanpth said:
The brain is extremely adaptable, so ultimately I would say it doesn't matter. High intelligence can be cultivated if it didn't come naturally, and it can be squandered if it did. Just depends how you spend your time. Genetics helps, but it only goes so far.
Creativity seems to play a huge role as well, if you do lots of activities which stimulate creativity, it seems to help significantly in coming up with novel solutions to issues. That combined with book smarts and philosophical/spiritual wisdom seems to create a mental environment best suited for sparking ideas which some people refer to as "genius".
I think you make good points. A genius may seem overtly logical when interpreting phenomena because that is the basis for presenting objective data. I think deductive reasoning is heavier on logic and inductive reasoning relies more on creativity.
This is because with deduction you have an actual answer, but with induction an answer must be contrived from the ether. (The lines are built from what is known, they are not given)
My reason for dividing deductive and inductive reasoning in this manner is due to inductive reasoning. Lines being traced vs lines being made.
Quote:
Inductive reasoning is also known as hypothesis construction because any conclusions made are based on educated predictions. There are three biases that could distort the proper application of induction[citation needed], thereby preventing the reasoner from forming the best, most logical conclusion based on the clues. These biases include the availability bias, the confirmation bias, and the predictable-world bias.
The availability bias causes the reasoner to depend primarily upon information that is readily available to him/her. People have a tendency to rely on information that is easily accessible in the world around them. For example, in surveys, when people are asked to estimate the percentage of people who died from various causes, most respondents would choose the causes that have been most prevalent in the media such as terrorism, and murders, and airplane accidents rather than causes such as disease and traffic accidents, which have been technically "less accessible" to the individual since they are not emphasized as heavily in the world around him/her.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning
|
|
Previous
Index
Next
Threaded
Shop for: 
Edit 
Reply 
Anonymous
