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 Panoramix
Getafix
Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 634
Loc: Everywhere else
Last seen: 2 months, 14 days
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Yeah, it's interesting how quantum mechanics disagrees with what would seem to be common sense. Theories on the dispersion of gases that were instrumental in some of the earlier works on quantum physics stated that it is in fact entirely possible for all of the oxygen to concentrate in one corner of a room, suffocating those inside the room, it's just very very very unlikely to ever occur. So we can all go around thinking "enclosed spaces are perfectly safe environment in which I can spend the majority of my life" but that is in fact just an extremely consistent illusion and the other shoe might conceivably drop at any moment, suffocating a movie theatre full of people or what-have-you. The thing with quantum physics is more for the study of sub-atomic particles than of people and people-scaled objects and events. From a people-scaled perspective, atomic theory seems more like an illusion. From an atom-scaled perspective, people are the illusion. What seems like the solid physical body in which you dwell is in fact composed of particles that spend a significant portion of their existance somewhere else entirely not of, nor even detectable by this reality. That being said, this fact doesn't prevent me from biting this toast, nor does the mouthful of toast wink out of existance, then wink back into existance part-way down my throat.
It's hard to deny the validity of physical existance (if you doubt, you can give me the plane fare and I'll come to your door and punch you in the face, then we can see what your thoughts on the validity of physical existance are) but it's also hard to pretend that the reality we inhabit is as straight-forward as it may seem to be at a glance. Personally, I'd be inclined to say that other human beings are real but that human society is a mutually agreed upon illusion, that the planet Earth on which it wreaks its' unnatural havok is real but that the universe in which the Milky Way galaxy in which the Earth exists is an illusion that has been mutually agreed upon by all manners of consciousness which are in fact just one god consciousness that seperates and differentiates aspects of itself just to give itself someone to talk to...
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Don't worry, I'm wrong.
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Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,198
Last seen: 2 hours, 29 minutes
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I've read it explained as the non-permanence of form. Forms could be seen to to be energetic entanglements, and so everything is made of the same stuff. Although the stuff may last forever, the forms arise and dissipate.
Another idea of disillusionment could be found in examining whether the "world" really is like we think it is. Are we seeing things as they truly are? And it seems like some people see more accurately than others, but is there an 'ultimate seeing'? And aren't many of our thoughts subjective and biased to some degree?
Other ideas that describe reality as illusion seem to poke holes in their own theory by creating circular arguments, or debasing the definition of illusion by lack of a counter definition. If everything is a dream, then nothing is real and the idea of a dream ceases to have meaning. Aliens creating humans, or life being a simulation are both examples of circular arguments. Who created the aliens, and what is generating the simulation?
It seems that some hypothesized answers are not knowable through exploration and thought. We can do a fair job of figuring out how things happen relating to cause and effect, but the question of why seems unapproachable unless why is also considered a question of cause and effect. Even still, logic would indicate that since momentum is never created or destroyed, there is no ultimate beginning and hence no ultimate cause. The universe in some iteration or another exists through infinity, both ahead and behind. If the face of this, the question of why has no meaning. Yet here we are!
And so we cannot answer the ultimate question of why. As a corollary, we cannot truly answer any question regarding why, except to state the reason, which is but the tip of a system of cause and effect that is only reasonable in a relative way.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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Samurai Drifter
Wandering Mindfuck
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 5,042
Loc: Frosted
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Nuh uh. If we believe hard enough, we can levitate and stuff.
It's worth noting that there's a very distinct difference between objectivity being the same as subjectivity and being able to control stuff with your mind. I've never once claimed that the latter is possible. In fact I view the lack of difference between the physical and the mental as the reason why all paranormal phenomenon are fundamentally impossible. The fact that the two are the same means that everything is basically transparent to perception, and that empirical observation tells us everything there is to know about reality.
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The obstacle is the path.
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tribesman
Knew it all along
Registered: 11/19/11
Posts: 395
Loc: fixed in it's gaze
Last seen: 11 days, 19 hours
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'I' is the illusion, or more specifically the possession of self created within the brain, truly, there is only emptiness.
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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,604
Loc: underbelly
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 Re: The World Is An Illusion? [Re: tribesman]
#15807238 - 02/14/12 06:53 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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"truly" you don't know if it's empty or not.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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tribesman
Knew it all along
Registered: 11/19/11
Posts: 395
Loc: fixed in it's gaze
Last seen: 11 days, 19 hours
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Re: The World Is An Illusion? [Re: Icelander]
#15807274 - 02/14/12 07:08 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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I was going to say "the truth is", then I rethought it and decided on truly, which I meant as leaning towards the truth (whatever that is), but I'll never be certain.
Can you be certain that my head is not empty ? 
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windowlikcer
Stranger
Registered: 11/14/11
Posts: 81
Last seen: 1 day, 1 hour
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
windowlikcer said:
Your example of two people in a room looking at an orange is simply an issue of physics, not quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics serves as sort of the basis from which all other sciences arise. It isn't really meant to easily explain the nature of such large things as oranges and people. That is more in the realm of physics, which focuses on approximating the behaviors of large objects.
I always thought quantum mechanics was physics.... 
Well...physics is quantum mechanics at its core. Along with chemistry, biology and the rest. But if you wanted to describe an orange's mass, you'd use physics to make things easy on yourself. However, if you wanted to describe the location of the electrons inside the orange...you'd use quantum mechanics. And then you'd find out they are everywhere and no where at once. 
But seriously. This shit haunts me 24/7.
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 23,674
Loc: Red Panda Village
Last seen: 3 hours, 32 minutes
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Quote:
windowlikcer said:
But if you wanted to describe an orange's mass, you'd use physics to make things easy on yourself. However, if you wanted to describe the location of the electrons inside the orange...you'd use quantum mechanics.
The problem I think is that you keep saying saying physics, in opposition to quantum mechanics or quantum physics, but you really should be saying "classical physics". That's how one typically denotes the difference between these two branches of physics. 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,604
Loc: underbelly
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How about classical music? Can't leave that out of the equation.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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windowlikcer
Stranger
Registered: 11/14/11
Posts: 81
Last seen: 1 day, 1 hour
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You're right. 
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mrspirit2
Registered: 08/07/08
Posts: 1,647
Loc: 
Last seen: 14 hours, 49 minutes
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Re: The World Is An Illusion? [Re: Icelander]
#15815951 - 02/15/12 08:32 PM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
How about classical music? Can't leave that out of the equation.
I like you a little bit more.
Only a little bit though.
I'm just a bean in the dirt, just finding new life in this shit.
Downloaded a best of classical set. Debussy, Bach, Liszt, Chopin, and a bunch more.
CHEERS TO ILLUSIONS
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