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 tribesman
Knew it all along
Registered: 11/19/11
Posts: 395
Loc: fixed in it's gaze
Last seen: 11 days, 22 hours
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 Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: 4896744]
#15807772 - 02/14/12 10:13 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Unnecessary fear is starting to seem like waste of energy. 
Quote:
iThink said:
Quote:
tribesman said:
A preference for what, fear ?, even when acknowledging
that in the end it doesn't matter.
A preference for pleasure as opposed to fear and anxiety obviously. Why the fuck shouldn't I attempt to make living more pleasurable even though it will all end with a cessation of preferences? Do you make no attempts at making your life more pleasurable? If not, why do you continue living?
Quote:
iThink said:
Quote:
tribesman said:
A preference for what, fear ?, even when acknowledging
that in the end it doesn't matter.
A preference for pleasure as opposed to fear and anxiety obviously. Why the fuck shouldn't I attempt to make living more pleasurable even though it will all end with a cessation of preferences? Do you make no attempts at making your life more pleasurable? If not, why do you continue living?
Every time I make efforts to enjoy life it ends in tears, maybe happiness and fulfillment are just a bunch of hype ? 
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White Beard
Venerable White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 2,318
Loc: In the forest somewhere.
Last seen: 25 minutes, 18 seconds
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: tribesman]
#15807801 - 02/14/12 10:22 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Maybe you just need better drugs?
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4896744
Small Town Girl
 
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 15 days, 22 hours
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: tribesman]
#15807816 - 02/14/12 10:26 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Every time I make efforts to enjoy life it ends in tears, maybe happiness and fulfillment are just a bunch of hype ?
What do you mean by "just a bunch of hype"? I know that for me, happiness is definitely a preferable state of mind. When I am happy, I am high on chemicals in my brain, whether it is induced by an ingested chemical or a sober experience. I find highs such as this to be more enjoyable than sadness.
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Live your Life! 
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 OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: Icelander]
#15807832 - 02/14/12 10:31 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
My guess is Becker had plenty of death anxiety but by facing it reduced it to a point where he was able to face the actual event of his dying with grace.
What is wrong with kicking, screaming, pleading, weeping and a general carrying on and embarassing yourself in front of the hosiptal staff?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Desert Elf
Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 668
Last seen: 1 day, 3 hours
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: Samurai Drifter]
#15807983 - 02/14/12 11:14 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:
Desert Elf said:
No such thing as death.
Sorry.
I might as well say there's no such thing as life and call that video the "circle of death." 
Right you are sir.
There is no life there is no death. Just things that come and go and the perception of it all.
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Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,605
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
My guess is Becker had plenty of death anxiety but by facing it reduced it to a point where he was able to face the actual event of his dying with grace.
What is wrong with kicking, screaming, pleading, weeping and a general carrying on and embarassing yourself in front of the hosiptal staff?
Wrong? No, nothing wrong with that.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jwlst
Stranger
Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 1,038
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: Icelander]
#15809337 - 02/14/12 04:32 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Maybe the only problem is if you really believe yourself to be a god, then I guess your death anxiety takes you too very strange extremes.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 1,389
Last seen: 22 hours, 5 minutes
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: Desert Elf] 1
#15810004 - 02/14/12 06:19 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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There is no life there is no death. Just things that come and go and the perception of it all.
how deliciously vague. there are lots of sneaky ways of obscuring your fate as a biological organism. keep up the good work 
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"The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic ideas (the characterological lie about reality) and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels lost. And this is the simple truth - that to live is to feel lost - he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked." - Ernest Becker
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,605
Loc: underbelly
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: blingbling]
#15810213 - 02/14/12 07:02 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 15 days, 22 hours
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: blingbling]
#15810257 - 02/14/12 07:12 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said:
There is no life there is no death. Just things that come and go and the perception of it all.
how deliciously vague. there are lots of sneaky ways of obscuring your fate as a biological organism. keep up the good work
That line is quote worthy.
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Live your Life!
Edited by iThink (02/14/12 07:52 PM)
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Vaipen
Psychonaut
Registered: 01/15/12
Posts: 46
Loc: Europe
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: 4896744]
#15817242 - 02/16/12 04:08 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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I read this book some years ago and it had quite an impact on me. Since then I have learned to use it in analysis of culture so I guess I have integrated it it in my perception of reality. In itself this idea about death and the denying or our mortality and needing transference symbols to make the mortality notion endurable has at least partly become a transference symbol to me.
After I read this book I understood the mindset of the 'suicide terrorist' much better than before. The idea or mindset needed to tell yourself that dying for a cause is sensible surely comes from the belief in an afterlife and a god who will catch you when you fall through deaths' trapdoor, thus creating a way to overcome the fear of death through dying for a cause.
I do not believe anymore that a terrorist is a religious person. I think deep within they are disconnected from god and and so lost from their original faith that the only way to get that faith back is to die for a cause in order to proof to oneself one is truly faithful. That cause being the religion or belief system that was used as a transference symbol.
Last year I had an unforgettable experience on a high dose of shrooms. The things I experienced there showed me and confirmed to me death is no final end. This experience and the information I have retained from it are now wriggling into my being as a transference symbol. Many people have had this notion from the psychedelic experience, that death is a perceptional doorway to a new state of being. Since at heart I am a solipsist I can only think that each of us will enter into another realm of being based on our beliefs during life. Or maybe we will all end up in a similar existence cause if nothing else, death is the destroyer of all assumptions about reality.
I do not believe in god but I believe instead, if 'believe' is the right word here, that god could be real to some people because we all live in a separate bubble of reality; our perception and beliefs and assumptions about reality create reality that we then perceive to be true. So god does not exist, yet there is room for god to exists, albeit in a split off universe created by someone's solipsist power.
For this reason, being a solipsist, I cannot take the god concept seriously or adopt it as a transference symbol. The concept of god as a creator would supersede my own earthly assumptions on what reality is as it flows from my solipsist nature. God can only be Schrödinger's cat, in a quantum physical terminology. Whether or not god is real depends in its entirety on the perceiver.
Since my mind is the ultimate creator itself, with god's omnipotence and omniscience, god is indubitably real and as omnipotent and omniscient in the created world of another person. Such a person, who beliefs that such a god is real, will create through this notion a transference symbol to lift the soul past deaths threshold.
For this reason no such person should go against god's commands: it is their own powerful visionary creation that loops back with a power equal to the bestowed power of god in condemnation, meaning that not following dogma could result in not reaching the sough after afterlife that the god notion was intended to provide. So you could say that god is a self-creating and self-enforcing perception of reality, just as a solipsist would reason.
If reality is a creation by my own mind, then I am god, inventing the concept of myself. Since the world around me appears to be solid enough for it to be able to hurt me in various ways, from falling off a ladder or being run over by an elephant, causing injury or death, I have to take this reality serious, just as serious as a non-solipsist takes it serious. The power of ones' own creation is the only thing that can ultimately hurt you.
God as a concept is therefore a dangerous one, because it is a self-empowering perception and the ultimate self-defeating concept. I prefer a solipsist approach to the god concept because, as it always seems to do for me, the solipsist approach solves these issues and concepts satisfactory without having to deal with debates on god existence.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 1,389
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: Vaipen]
#15817309 - 02/16/12 04:56 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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I have learned to use it in analysis of culture so I guess I have integrated it it in my perception of reality. In itself this idea about death and the denying or our mortality and needing transference symbols to make the mortality notion endurable has at least partly become a transference symbol to me.
i know the feeling
Whether or not god is real depends in its entirety on the perceiver.
to an extant. the transference symbol of god can be real if you believe in it. but imo believing doesn't make something into a tangible object.
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"The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic ideas (the characterological lie about reality) and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels lost. And this is the simple truth - that to live is to feel lost - he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked." - Ernest Becker
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: Vaipen]
#15817316 - 02/16/12 05:00 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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If you're a solipsist then why bother posting on a forum? Can't you talk to figments of your imagination just as easily with a personal diary?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,605
Loc: underbelly
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: deCypher]
#15817318 - 02/16/12 05:01 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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Cause he wants to.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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soldatheero
lastirishman
Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,588
Loc: 
Last seen: 1 day, 18 hours
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: Icelander]
#15817342 - 02/16/12 05:11 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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but the question is why would he want to? I think he is confusing idealism with solipsism because throughout hes post he is acknowledging the existence of other minds. From what I understand solipsism means only your reality exists and nothing or no one else.
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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,605
Loc: underbelly
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: soldatheero]
#15817391 - 02/16/12 05:36 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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Maybe it's a game he plays with himself for entertainment. Pretending is fun, especially if one is all alone.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Vaipen
Psychonaut
Registered: 01/15/12
Posts: 46
Loc: Europe
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: deCypher]
#15817543 - 02/16/12 06:43 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
If you're a solipsist then why bother posting on a forum? Can't you talk to figments of your imagination just as easily with a personal diary?
Whatever do you mean. Are you implying something? Ah I see now.
Solipsism knows a critique. And I think when you do not know what it is you fall prone to the idea that solipsism denies the existence of other minds. This simplistic critique comes from the ego I believe, that is, your ego. It feels threatened by the very concept. In general someone's ideas can be challenging to the self but in the case of solipsism it can be quite personal.
I solved this issue with solipsism by inventing a new form of solipsism, that is still close to the original idea but deals with the existence of other minds.
The way I see it is that there is only one awareness. And each of us can claim it for him or herself. This one awareness, when divided, has access to the whole of its omniscience and omnipotence to create reality. So you can divide it into all sentient beings without it being divided or diminished in anyway.
Since reality is a personal act of using awareness to create reality and perceive it after, many realities exist, created by one awareness, mine (or yours) but all within their self-referenced bubble. Hence my reasoning about the god concept. God can be real, albeit only within your own bubble. It has no bearing on other peoples' beliefs.
So, now your ego doesn't have to be threatened by my solipsism. I can appreciate and celebrate the world as it appears to me whilst at the same time leaving your ego the dignity (or little baby syndrome if you talk Castaneda) of existing onto itself.
One awareness, indivisibly divided with each access and the power of the whole. So when I talk about me being the source of all that I perceive, I am not in conflict with anyone, not does anyone have to feel put down by the solipsist point of view.
I should probably name this animal. Maybe Neo-Solipsism or something.
Edited by Vaipen (02/16/12 06:55 AM)
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soldatheero
lastirishman
Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,588
Loc:
Last seen: 1 day, 18 hours
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: Icelander]
#15817557 - 02/16/12 06:48 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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Yeah that is true, in fact that is Meher Baba's theme of the universe, it is God who is imagining something other then himself in order to love, his philosophy is strictly idealist.
Quote:
God is Love. And Love must love. And to love there must be a Beloved. But since God is Existence infinite and eternal there is no one for Him to love but Himself. And in order to love Himself He must imagine Himself as the Beloved whom He as the Lover imagines He loves.
Beloved and Lover implies separation. And separation creates longing; and longing causes search. And the wider and the more intense the search the greater the separation and the more terrible the longing.
When longing is most intense separation is complete, and the purpose of separation, which was that Love might experience itself as Lover and Beloved, is fulfilled; and union follows. And when union is attained, the lover knows that he himself was all along the Beloved whom he loved and desired union with; and that all the impossible situations that he overcame were obstacles which he himself had placed in the path to himself.
To attain union is so impossibly difficult because it is impossible to become what you already are! Union is nothing other than knowledge of oneself as the Only One.
- "The Everything and the Nothing"
It seems very similar to solipsism but there is a key difference in that the solipsist believes. He takes only his mind to exist and no other beings, while according to Meher the other beings exist but it is instead the mind that does not exist. It mind that creates this isolated "I" in the first place.
I think Valpen is getting at this.
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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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