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 blingbling
what you chicken stew?
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 becker on the existence of a creator god
#15806983 - 02/14/12 04:30 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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for those of you who don't know, ernest becker was a cultural anthropologist who wrote the pulitzer prize winning book the denial of death, among many other great works. he is famous for popularizing the concept of death anxiety which is a persistent theme in shroomery threads.
in the denial of death becker makes numerous references to a "creative force" or "creator god". here are some examples:
Quote:
man breaks through the bounds of merely cultural heroism; he destroys the character lie that had him perform as a hero in the everyday scheme of things; and by doing so he opens himself up to infinity, to the possibility of cosmic heroism, to the very service of god.
the self has to be destroyed, brought down to nothing, in order for self-transcendence to begin. then the self can begin to relate itself to powers beyond itself. it has to thrash around in it's finitude, it has to die, in order to see beyond it. to what? to infinitude, to absolute transcendence, to the ultimate power of creation which made finite creatures. our modern understanding of psychodynamics confirms that this progression is very logical...
once you expose the basic weaknesses and emptiness of the person, his helplessness, then you are forced to re-examine the whole problem of power linkages. you have to think about reforging them to a real source of creative and generative power. it is at this point that one can begin to posit creatureliness vis-a-vis a creator who is the first cause of all created things, not merely the second hand, intermediate creators of society , the parents and the panopoly of cultural heroes.
one goes through it all to arrive at faith, the faith that one's very creatureliness has some meaning to a creator,; that despite one's true insignificance, weakness, death, one's existence has meaning in some ultimate sense because it exists within an eternal and infinite scheme of things brought about and maintained to some kind of design by some creative force.
do you think becker is merely showing his own death anxiety or in your opinion has becker hit the nail on the head and essentially found the meaning of life?
Edited by blingbling (02/14/12 04:32 AM)
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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: blingbling]
#15807022 - 02/14/12 04:55 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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I've thought about this passage many times. My conclusion is, of course it's death anxiety. Why else would one need even to consider the question? It is anxiety that drives us to the point where we consider such issues in dealing with "the problem" of life.
Having said that of course one must acknowledge it as a viable shield to anxiety and therefore useful. It might even be true but that of course is an unknown.
My guess is Becker had plenty of death anxiety but by facing it reduced it to a point where he was able to face the actual event of his dying with grace. At least according to a few who were around him near the end.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: Icelander]
#15807043 - 02/14/12 05:11 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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can we consider beckers use of the creator god concept as a means of dying with reduced anxiety graceful? does his belief in a creator god show that he could not face his own death without making unwarranted assumptions?
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"The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic ideas (the characterological lie about reality) and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels lost. And this is the simple truth - that to live is to feel lost - he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked." - Ernest Becker
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: blingbling]
#15807081 - 02/14/12 05:28 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Yes we can IMO. Graceful to me means without undue suffering. Anyone dying in a non or low stress state is doing so gracefully imo. In the end who cares what one uses as a shield? This is not a contest.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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tribesman
Knew it all along
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: blingbling]
#15807123 - 02/14/12 05:57 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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I cannot deny my apprehension surrounding death, sometimes I would tell my self it will be ok, and other times I would get stuck on death's impending inevitability. This pattern has repeated in my mind for years, and has been so consistant in my thoughts because of my proximity to family and friends who I've lost, or through the prior knowledge that they were soon to die. Most recently my grandfather (fathers father) died, and although it was out of the blue, I wasn't shocked, or overly sad, or even fearful of my own death, I just thought to my self; "well this is what happens".
I hadn't heard the term 'death anxiety' until I started visiting the shroomery, my own recognition of it was usually as a companion to the thought; "I will have to die one day, no matter what I do or plan now", and being from a protestant christian family, fear of death didn't bother me as much as the fear of a painful death. This may be the reason for my interest in spirituality and mysticism, and my early interest in psychedelics (post recreational teen use) and their use in spiritual practices.
How can DA be reduced, if indeed it can ?,
and what would we gain from such a reduction ?
Is meeting death with dignity important to the departed for their own benefit or for some conceived of benefit to those left behind watching ?
I remember when my mothers father died many years ago, and when she broke the news to my siblings and I, she said that at the moment he died he had a big smile on his face and a glow. I'm not sure if she made this up to lessen the loss, or if my grandfather had managed it as one last act of compassion for his daughters.
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Desert Elf
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: blingbling]
#15807141 - 02/14/12 06:11 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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No such thing as death.
Sorry.
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Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat
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tribesman
Knew it all along
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: Desert Elf]
#15807156 - 02/14/12 06:19 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Don't ruin the surprise. 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: Desert Elf]
#15807228 - 02/14/12 06:50 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Desert Elf said:
No such thing as death.
Sorry.
What ever gets you thought the night.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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soldatheero
lastirishman
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: blingbling]
#15807301 - 02/14/12 07:22 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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You know that whole excerpt may just belong in the S&M greatest spiritual quotes thread.
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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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4896744
Small Town Girl
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: Icelander]
#15807579 - 02/14/12 09:14 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Yes we can IMO. Graceful to me means without undue suffering. Anyone dying in a non or low stress state is doing so gracefully imo. In the end who cares what one uses as a shield? This is not a contest.
I agree. My preference just happens to be opiates and benzodiapenes as opposed to pretending you know a creator exists.
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Live your Life! 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: 4896744]
#15807619 - 02/14/12 09:30 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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I think your method is far more sure to bring some calm in those last days or minutes than a belief system where some nagging doubt remains.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Samurai Drifter
Wandering Mindfuck
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: Desert Elf]
#15807643 - 02/14/12 09:35 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Desert Elf said:
No such thing as death.
Sorry.
I might as well say there's no such thing as life and call that video the "circle of death." 
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The obstacle is the path.
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White Beard
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: Samurai Drifter]
#15807658 - 02/14/12 09:41 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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In the Circle, the Circle of Death!
Come on kids, sing along!
It'd probably be good for them. Spoiled brats.
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4896744
Small Town Girl
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: Icelander]
#15807671 - 02/14/12 09:44 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I think your method is far more sure to bring some calm in those last days or minutes than a belief system where some nagging doubt remains.
Ya, I view drugs as a more to the point and intense way of achieving the mind states people try to achieve "naturally".
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Live your Life!
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tribesman
Knew it all along
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: Icelander]
#15807672 - 02/14/12 09:44 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I think your method is far more sure to bring some calm in those last days or minutes than a belief system where some nagging doubt remains.
I doubt it really matters, once the ego stops functioning and all identification of self ends, there will be no 'me' to care or worry.
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4896744
Small Town Girl
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: tribesman]
#15807675 - 02/14/12 09:45 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
tribesman said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
I think your method is far more sure to bring some calm in those last days or minutes than a belief system where some nagging doubt remains.
I doubt it really matters, once the ego stops functioning and all identification of self ends, there will be no 'me' to care or worry.
It can matter while you are still alive. Just because I will be without preference in the end doesn't mean that I am without preference in the meantime.
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Live your Life!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: tribesman]
#15807707 - 02/14/12 09:56 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
tribesman said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
I think your method is far more sure to bring some calm in those last days or minutes than a belief system where some nagging doubt remains.
I doubt it really matters, once the ego stops functioning and all identification of self ends, there will be no 'me' to care or worry.
We are talking about everything up to that point.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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tribesman
Knew it all along
Registered: 11/19/11
Posts: 395
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Last seen: 11 days, 22 hours
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: 4896744]
#15807712 - 02/14/12 09:57 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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A preference for what, fear ?, even when acknowledging
that in the end it doesn't matter.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,605
Loc: underbelly
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: tribesman]
#15807724 - 02/14/12 10:00 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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wtf are you talking about?
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
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Last seen: 15 days, 22 hours
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Re: becker on the existence of a creator god [Re: tribesman]
#15807740 - 02/14/12 10:03 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
tribesman said:
A preference for what, fear ?, even when acknowledging
that in the end it doesn't matter.
A preference for pleasure as opposed to fear and anxiety obviously. Why the fuck shouldn't I attempt to make living more pleasurable even though it will all end with a cessation of preferences? Do you make no attempts at making your life more pleasurable? If not, why do you continue living?
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Live your Life!
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