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 Harri
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Registered: 10/29/08
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 Past/Future aren't real  1
#15800608 - 02/12/12 09:37 PM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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They're concepts and exist because they're the result of functions of the brain, such as having a memory, imagination and anticipation, being able to formalize information into an idea,etc. Time only exists now, its infinitely right now, with reactions infinitely small/large happening within its self.
I just realized this now  am I correct? could anyone prove this wrong?
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 lar20
Strange guy in a park
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: Harri]
#15800660 - 02/12/12 09:45 PM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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i would say your correct for the most part. although if something happens in the past that makes a big impact on the planet or something you can see its effects down the road years later (pollution for example) but for the most part past and future are just memories and ideas
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I <3 DRUGS
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 mylfgur
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: Harri]
#15800667 - 02/12/12 09:47 PM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Time is a function of the brain, but only to an extent. Time is the brain's recognition of entropy, or the change in the universe. Because your brain is a part of the universe and is also subject to entropy, it kind of records the flow of change and give it a scale.
Think about it this way, if our universe was one thing with only enough space to occupy that one thing, there would be no such thing as time. However, space is expanding and there are many, MANY things in the universe which are all moving with respect to each other because of energy, and therefore there is a flow of change which your brain can recognize as time.
Time is as real as you.
Anything past there, well, that's metaphysics.
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Help on the Way
Slipknot420
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: lar20]
#15800685 - 02/12/12 09:50 PM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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There is simply one eternal moment which happens right here and now, and every moment that ever happened or ever will happen happens here and now, all of time, all places, the entire universe all happens simultaneously in one spot and one beautiful infinite divine moment. Wow!
Or you're just crazy. If time wasn't real, why would we have all these clocks?
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 *Divine Moments of Truth*
"Limitless undying love which shines around me like a million suns - it calls me on and on across the universe" ~ John Lennon
"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right" ~The Grateful Dead
"Religionists, with their guaranteed eventual paradise, of which they know nothing, taking it all on 'faith,' can't be expected to understand or sympathize with those with a yen to storm the Gate of Heaven and see for themselves what all the praying's about!" ~Robert Hunter
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Harri
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: mylfgur]
#15800778 - 02/12/12 10:05 PM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Time (past/present/future) is only in the brain, us being the only conscious organisms that we know of that recognize the concept "time" we all have a general opinion that time is linear but we only think this because of having memory and imagination to imagine a future of possibilities based on past experiences which are also just memories, it is only now, forever. 
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frost458
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: Harri]
#15801605 - 02/13/12 02:22 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Harri said:
They're concepts and exist because they're the result of functions of the brain, such as having a memory, imagination and anticipation, being able to formalize information into an idea,etc. Time only exists now, its infinitely right now, with reactions infinitely small/large happening within its self.
I just realized this now am I correct? could anyone prove this wrong?
I disagree, Time do exist. and it is streched by gravity.
Time passes faster for sattelite than us because they are less exposed to the earth gravity field, that's why GPS sattelites needs a constant time corection or else the system wouldn't be able to keep track of us.
it is also function of speed, when you go faster, time slows down.
Edited by frost458 (02/13/12 02:23 AM)
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nonduality
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: frost458]
#15801614 - 02/13/12 02:28 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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This is quite the conundrum.
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UnifiedField
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: nonduality]
#15801932 - 02/13/12 06:42 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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There is only now. Learn from history, in all it's forms, and apply yourself to the logical way of functioning within your immediate reality. Make some art about it while your at it as well 
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This is me.
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Demonic_Chronic
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: frost458]
#15802104 - 02/13/12 08:11 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
frost458 said:
Quote:
Harri said:
They're concepts and exist because they're the result of functions of the brain, such as having a memory, imagination and anticipation, being able to formalize information into an idea,etc. Time only exists now, its infinitely right now, with reactions infinitely small/large happening within its self.
I just realized this now am I correct? could anyone prove this wrong?
I disagree, Time do exist. and it is streched by gravity.
Time passes faster for sattelite than us because they are less exposed to the earth gravity field, that's why GPS sattelites needs a constant time corection or else the system wouldn't be able to keep track of us.
it is also function of speed, when you go faster, time slows down.
I second that motion
DC
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"Evolution. Evolution is the greatest force in the material world. Evolution will provide us the next step in intelligent life. But it will come from somewhere unexpected."
Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday. Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery and today is a gift. Thats why its called the present.
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Harri
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you can slow reactions in different conditions, it doesn't mean time is speeding up or slowing down it means it takes longer for a process/reactions to occur due to its environment, I'm sure gravity could have something to do with slowing or speeding reaction that causes what you think is time, it's just the reactions occurring.
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Demonic_Chronic
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: Harri]
#15802481 - 02/13/12 10:21 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Yes its called affecting time, gravity bends time. The more gravity the more bent and stretched time gets.
DC
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"Evolution. Evolution is the greatest force in the material world. Evolution will provide us the next step in intelligent life. But it will come from somewhere unexpected."
Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday. Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery and today is a gift. Thats why its called the present.
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mylfgur
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: Harri] 1
#15802521 - 02/13/12 10:36 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Harri said:
Time (past/present/future) is only in the brain, us being the only conscious organisms that we know of that recognize the concept "time" we all have a general opinion that time is linear but we only think this because of having memory and imagination to imagine a future of possibilities based on past experiences which are also just memories, it is only now, forever.
you can slow reactions in different conditions, it doesn't mean time is speeding up or slowing down it means it takes longer for a process/reactions to occur due to its environment, I'm sure gravity could have something to do with slowing or speeding reaction that causes what you think is time, it's just the reactions occurring.
You seem to be ignoring the obvious in favor of attempting to apply metaphysics pragmatically.
Let me try to explain once more, hold onto your seat.
There is a linear flow of change in the universe which is what we perceive as time. Time is relative and is an inherent property of space, and gravity bends space and therefore time. Man invented clocks because his brain is advanced enough to recognize this flow of change.
This flow of change is called entropy, the ultimate natural law of gaseous longing. Some have described entropy as the tendency of the universe to go from a state of order to one of disorder. Energy in the universe wants to spread out and lower its potential, solids want to become gasses, space expands, and everything wants to spread out to lower energy states. In a way, energy wants to move from useful forms to useless (to us) forms. When you use energy, an amount is lost as heat, this is entropy in action. The second law of thermodynamics states that "the entropy of any closed system not in thermal equilibrium always increases." Because the universe is a closed system, its entropy is constantly increasing. Our universe will continue to change until it reaches thermal equilibrium (if it ever does). Because of the tendency of the universe to approach thermal equilibrium, there is not only a flow of change, but a direction of change. The concept of time is a simple tool that the brain developed to make sense of the order of the ridiculous world it inhabits. To say that humans are the only animals that recognize time is disingenuous. All living things are aware of the point of time they are in, though humans may be the only species able to conceptualize the idea.
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Harri
Wirrurr
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Heat speeds up reactions as well, heat speeds up time?
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mylfgur
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: Harri]
#15802532 - 02/13/12 10:40 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Harri said:
Heat speeds up reactions as well, heat speeds up time?
Heat, in a way, IS time.
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mylfgur
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: mylfgur]
#15802542 - 02/13/12 10:43 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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I'm not trying to bash you or anything, Harri, I'm just trying to clear some things up. A lot of people seem to have a very "mystical" view of time. It's rather simple and elegant, really.
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qman
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: mylfgur]
#15802553 - 02/13/12 10:46 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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I don't think time travel is possible, the past is over, and the future has yet to happen.
One can travel back in time on certain drugs, and maybe the future as well, but this is just a mental process, it's not physical time travel.
If time travel was possible, where are the travelers?
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DZ74
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: mylfgur]
#15802555 - 02/13/12 10:47 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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But time is real! The concept we laid upon time isn't. but time is real. The pineal gland affects all living orignisms circadian rythem
which is induced by certain light I'm assuming 0.o
But another thing is...if the past and all memories of it only existed in the human mind then like one guy posted what if we keep making careless mistakes and it affect the environment does that mean that was only a mistake of the imagination if we just forget about it like the concepts of past and future? or did it just get real where the past met the present?
I don't agree with the solipsism philosophy even though I have thought about it before too. but overall, It makes people think it is only them that exist and that their actions affect nobody.
But who is to really say? Idk 
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mylfgur
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: DZ74]
#15802567 - 02/13/12 10:50 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
DZ74 said:
But time is real! The concept we laid upon time isn't. but time is real. The pineal gland affects all living orignisms circadian rythem
which is induced by certain light I'm assuming 0.o
But another thing is...if the past and all memories of it only existed in the human mind then like one guy posted what if we keep making careless mistakes and it affect the environment does that mean that was only a mistake of the imagination if we just forget about it like the concepts of past and future? or did it just get real where the past met the present?
I don't agree with the solipsism philosophy even though I have thought about it before too. but overall, It makes people think it is only them that exist and that their actions affect nobody.
But who is to really say? Idk
You seem to be potentially misguided about the pineal gland. It probably doesn't have much to do with time. There is a lot of conflicting information (and misinformation) about that specific part of the brain.
As for your inquiry about "if the past and all memories of it only existed in the human mind then like one guy posted what if we keep making careless mistakes and it affect the environment does that mean that was only a mistake of the imagination?" The answer would be yes, I think, for the OP. He seems to be in a romantic mindset, literally afflicted by the definition of philosophical idealism.
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windowlikcer
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: mylfgur]
#15802640 - 02/13/12 11:11 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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I have thought about this many times. I would agree that the past and future are illusions. But because of that...that also means that the present is the biggest illusion of all. We are presented with the experience of motion and the passing of time, but because the past can never be experienced, and the future can never be experienced either, the present is actually an eternally immobile prison that you are forever trapped in.
The struggle to free yourself from restraints becomes your own shackles.
What a fucked up reality this is! Just be glad for those moments like the one you had that caused you to post this. The peeks behind the curtain.
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Harri
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Quote:
windowlikcer said:
I have thought about this many times. I would agree that the past and future are illusions. But because of that...that also means that the present is the biggest illusion of all. We are presented with the experience of motion and the passing of time, but because the past can never be experienced, and the future can never be experienced either, the present is actually an eternally immobile prison that you are forever trapped in.
I completely agree
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Lord_McLovin
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: Harri]
#15802797 - 02/13/12 11:49 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Now the main question you should ask yourself is:
Can you put it all into a physical theory?
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mesoamerican
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: Harri]
#15802824 - 02/13/12 11:56 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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i think time only exists when measuring two things or objects from a distance but a speed type measurement is also used to make these calculations. So movement makes time. Othere than that, I have no clue. I believe past/ present/ future is only a time line we, humans use to cluster events into dates and times. But if you see time in dreams or in drug trips, you will see it's just a made up thing and does not exist. Society invented it.
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Hi. Just want to make friends.
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HarryL
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: Harri]
#15802830 - 02/13/12 11:57 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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No day but today
Time exists, and can be demonstrated... Read Stephan Hawkings book about Brief History of Time...
Passing of time leads to the belief that it only goes in one direction... Where we see chronology of events... Entropy increases, universe expands, clocks click forward
Past did exist, future doesnt exist and may never
I am assuming this is really a good way of saying, live in the moment... Can not change the past, learn from it... Future is unknown, but is what you will make of it... Which sounds a lot like reality to me
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Mushroom hunting: One bad mushroom can ruin your day! Know it or throw it.
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Lord_McLovin
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: HarryL]
#15802848 - 02/13/12 12:01 PM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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I personally prefer Einstein's approach:
Time is what you can measure with a clock.
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superhigh
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: Harri]
#15802857 - 02/13/12 12:03 PM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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“The more you go inside the world of Teonanacatl… you see our past and our future, which are there together as a thing already achieved, already happened… I knew and saw God: an immense clock that ticks, the spheres that go slowly around, and inside the stars, the earth, the entire universe, the day, the night… He who knows to the end the secret of Teonanacatl can even see that infinite clockwork.” (Maria Sabina; Schultes RE, Hofmann A, “Plants of the Gods”. Healing Arts Press, Vermont, 1992. via Psychedelic Information Theory: Home Page)
Edited by superhigh (02/13/12 12:09 PM)
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Lord_McLovin
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: superhigh]
#15802886 - 02/13/12 12:08 PM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Whoa, heavily trippy stuff. 
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windowlikcer
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Once, I was REALLY high, and saw a visual depiction of time. It was a central point of infinite concentration, almost like a singularity or something. It seemed to be an infinitely dense slit of white light, and flowing out from either side in a cat's-eye pattern was the past, constantly flowing in opposite directions, away from the present, which was the center. The more I would try to focus on the center, the more the parts I was just focusing on would split off and become the past, and the central slit would still remain there, just out of my grasp.
So that is kind of how I see time now. Actually, that is kind of how I see a lot of things.
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weshroom
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Its happening
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frost458
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Quote:
mesoamerican said:
i think time only exists when measuring two things or objects from a distance but a speed type measurement is also used to make these calculations. So movement makes time. Othere than that, I have no clue. I believe past/ present/ future is only a time line we, humans use to cluster events into dates and times. But if you see time in dreams or in drug trips, you will see it's just a made up thing and does not exist. Society invented it.
Quote:
mesoamerican said:
i think time only exists when measuring two things or objects from a distance but a speed type measurement is also used to make these calculations. So movement makes time. Othere than that, I have no clue. I believe past/ present/ future is only a time line we, humans use to cluster events into dates and times. But if you see time in dreams or in drug trips, you will see it's just a made up thing and does not exist. Society invented it.
does tripping allow you to go in the past or future? no, you stay in the present.
It is not because you do not comprehend the concept of time anymore while tripping that time does not exist anymore
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Harri
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: frost458]
#15803347 - 02/13/12 01:34 PM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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yes as time is a concept of the mind, when you alter the mind you alter time, which is subjective.
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frost458
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: Harri]
#15803441 - 02/13/12 01:55 PM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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your perception of time is subjective, not time.
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weshroom
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: frost458]
#15803603 - 02/13/12 02:33 PM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
frost458 said:
your perception of time is subjective, not time.
Time only exists in our minds as we are experiencing it. When you die...where is time? When your consciousness is dispersed into the energy of the universe... does time exist for this energy?... is this energy relative or interconnnected throughout the universe? I would not say time is objective. My 2 cents
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weshroom
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: frost458]
#15803613 - 02/13/12 02:35 PM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
frost458 said:
your perception of time is subjective, not time.
I feel like this is saying your perception of a chair is subjective, not a chair.
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frost458
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: weshroom]
#15806448 - 02/13/12 11:09 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
weshroom said:
Quote:
frost458 said:
your perception of time is subjective, not time.
I feel like this is saying your perception of a chair is subjective, not a chair.
well it is.....
a color blind won't see the same thing than you.
Someone who was nearly blind during all his childhood won't see depth as you do (because the brain learn to analyse depth during childhoold)
but the chair is real, it is there, it has certain color regardless of your perception.
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Lord_McLovin
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: frost458]
#15807166 - 02/14/12 06:26 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
frost458 said:
but the chair is real, it is there, it has certain color regardless of your perception.
Now, I have to disagree here. Things don't have color, it is your brain that gives them color.
When usual sun light hits an object, there is a certain spectrum of wavelengths that are absorbed and others are reflected. Yet we can only see light in a very small frequency range. There is no objective perception of color.
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JilPil
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i had soimething huge typed out but
im so high  nvm, i misread the last post.
cool thread, got me thinking too hard.
--------------------
 How to smoke DMT
✶✷✸✹✺✹✸✷✶
It's infinitely beautiful, and it's infinitely terrifying.
You are shown the infinity of possibility.
Prior to the breakthrough; you are considering possibilities.
Considering speeds and speeds, until your realm cant follow the consideration.
Once pushed out of this dimension.
You have no dimension in which to have any possibilities to consider.
As you come back to reality you start to remember the possibilities in your life.
You are you but you realize you.
Edited by JilPil (02/14/12 07:01 AM)
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frost458
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Quote:
Lord_McLovin said:
Quote:
frost458 said:
but the chair is real, it is there, it has certain color regardless of your perception.
Now, I have to disagree here. Things don't have color, it is your brain that gives them color.
When usual sun light hits an object, there is a certain spectrum of wavelengths that are absorbed and others are reflected. Yet we can only see light in a very small frequency range. There is no objective perception of color.
wavelenght mesurement is an objective mesurement of color....
you can be blind, color blind or whatever, you will always read the same wavelenght.
color is defined by the resulting wavelenght coming from an object exposed to white light.
wich is pretty objective....
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k00laid
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: frost458]
#15807472 - 02/14/12 08:38 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
frost458 said:
wavelenght mesurement is an objective mesurement of color....
you can be blind, color blind or whatever, you will always read the same wavelenght.
almost
im colorblind
and the color of the object im trying to determine is most heavily influenced by the colors around it
and the amount of light and junk and stuff
i look at colors and just honestly cant put a name to them
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MegaGoomba
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: Harri]
#15807491 - 02/14/12 08:44 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Harri said:
They're concepts and exist because they're the result of functions of the brain, such as having a memory, imagination and anticipation, being able to formalize information into an idea,etc. Time only exists now, its infinitely right now, with reactions infinitely small/large happening within its self.
I just realized this now am I correct? could anyone prove this wrong?
I think you're on the right track. The concept of linear time is false. It is a totalitarian method of control. We (conscious beings) can only exist in the present.
We are equally distant from past and future both are socially constructed mental concepts. We have no more access to our past than we do to our future. Our past is a function of memory, memory is constructed in the brain. Our future can be constructed in the brain as well, we can call it visualization.
Time exists but is much more unruly than the second hand of a clock. Time eddies and flows it moves forward and backward, it can speed up and slow down (by external or internal phenomenon) it is not a straight shot form point A to point B.
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You buy furniture. You tell yourself, this is the last sofa I will ever need in my life. Buy the sofa, then for a couple years you're satisfied that no matter what goes wrong, at least you've got your sofa issue handled. Then the right set of dishes. Then the perfect bed. The drapes. The rug. Then you're trapped in your lovely nest, and the things you used to own, now they own you. Chuck Palahniuk
 My First Grow My Strain List
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tokinman21
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: MegaGoomba]
#15807684 - 02/14/12 09:48 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Clocks move slower in regions of higher gravity. To me, that seems to mean that "time" is actually a thing and not just a concept created by our brains. If you put a clock in a valley and one on a mountain the one on the mountain will eventually be a second ahead of the one in the valley...if time didn't have some level of tangibility to it, then it couldn't be manipulated by gravity.
Additionally, in a study on psychic phenomena they showed people pictures to elicit positive or negative emotions. If I remember correctly, the participants' brainwaves often changed to the proper state a split second BEFORE the picture was shown...and again, if I remember correctly, that happened with astounding consistency. I'll try to find the study. Point is, if psychic phenomena are real, I see no way for the present moment to be the only one existing, because the phenomena require some sort of connection to "other" moments to work.
Edited by tokinman21 (02/14/12 09:52 AM)
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Lord_McLovin
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: frost458]
#15807708 - 02/14/12 09:56 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
frost458 said:
wavelenght mesurement is an objective mesurement of color....
color is defined by the resulting wavelenght coming from an object exposed to white light.
wich is pretty objective....
I think there is some misunderstanding. Our brain makes up color, it is our way to distinguish between rays of light of different wavelength.
Wavelength and intensity of reflected light rays are physical quantities, but it is our brain's interpretation of that data that results in our perception of color. That interpretation is cleary subjective.
Quote:
Clocks move slower in regions of higher gravity. To me, that seems to mean that "time" is actually a thing and not just a concept created by our brains.
I agree. Clearly this is all related to the postulate that the speed of light (in vacuum) is constant in all inertial frames of reference and that gravity cannot be distinguished from accerleration. But let's not go into the details.
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superhigh
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: tokinman21]
#15807715 - 02/14/12 09:58 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
tokinman21 said:
Clocks move slower in regions of higher gravity. To me, that seems to mean that "time" is actually a thing and not just a concept created by our brains. If you put a clock in a valley and one on a mountain the one on the mountain will eventually be a second ahead of the one in the valley...if time didn't have some level of tangibility to it, then it couldn't be manipulated by gravity.
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tokinman21
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: superhigh]
#15807727 - 02/14/12 10:01 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
superhigh said:
Quote:
tokinman21 said:
Clocks move slower in regions of higher gravity. To me, that seems to mean that "time" is actually a thing and not just a concept created by our brains. If you put a clock in a valley and one on a mountain the one on the mountain will eventually be a second ahead of the one in the valley...if time didn't have some level of tangibility to it, then it couldn't be manipulated by gravity.
http://www.gravityfromthegroundup.org/pdf/slowtime.pdf
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superhigh
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: tokinman21]
#15807738 - 02/14/12 10:03 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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What if the clock's CPU is in a satellite in outer space?
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Lord_McLovin
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: superhigh]
#15807745 - 02/14/12 10:05 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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What he said is correct.
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tokinman21
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: superhigh]
#15807755 - 02/14/12 10:08 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
superhigh said:
What if the clock's CPU is in a satellite in outer space?
Well as that pdf I linked to mentions, our satelites do run faster than our clocks on the ground because they are in lower gravity and we have to correct for that. I doubt that you will find anywhere in the universe, at least in our "known universe" where there is literally zero gravity...distant galaxies are still pulling on you, even if it's slight, and I imagine no matter how far out you get you will still be affected by the center of the universe. (While we may not have proven that the universe has a center, look at everything else in space...it makes logical sense that everything is revolving around something because that just seems to be how it works. Anyway, point is, if you're getting at time running "infinitely fast" I doubt it's possible.
That being said, theoretically you should be able to get pretty damn close to time "stopping" as you near a black hole, I would think. Technically though, if I understand correctly, black holes do not literally have infinite gravity. Otherwise, it seems their formation would destroy the entire universe.
Edited by tokinman21 (02/14/12 10:09 AM)
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Harri
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Could gravity change the speed of subatomic particles? It would cause a change in how fast something would take to happen.
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superhigh
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: tokinman21]
#15807767 - 02/14/12 10:12 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
tokinman21 said:
Quote:
superhigh said:
What if the clock's CPU is in a satellite in outer space?
Well as that pdf I linked to mentions, our satelites do run faster
That doesn't matter. All that matters is if the CPU can run the clock program. The clock program will work correctly no matter what.
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tokinman21
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: Harri]
#15807783 - 02/14/12 10:17 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Harri said:
Could gravity change the speed of subatomic particles? It would cause a change in how fast something would take to happen.
I would imagine it does, but how are we supposed to measure that? Unless we can observe the particles with tools that are in a different level of gravity, I don't see how we could tell if the particles changed speed because so would we.
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tokinman21
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: superhigh]
#15807790 - 02/14/12 10:19 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
superhigh said:
Quote:
tokinman21 said:
Quote:
superhigh said:
What if the clock's CPU is in a satellite in outer space?
Well as that pdf I linked to mentions, our satelites do run faster
That doesn't matter. All that matters is if the CPU can run the clock program. The clock program will work correctly no matter what.
What we're trying to get at though, is that "correct" is irrelevant. Time itself would be moving faster, so if you have something running a clock program in space, and the atoms themselves are moving faster because they are in a lighter gravitational field, the clock will still run faster.
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Lord_McLovin
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: tokinman21]
#15807802 - 02/14/12 10:22 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
tokinman21 said:
Quote:
superhigh said:
What if the clock's CPU is in a satellite in outer space?
Well as that pdf I linked to mentions, our satelites do run faster than our clocks on the ground because they are in lower gravity and we have to correct for that.
Absolutely. Our GPS would be useless if we wouldn't correct for those relativistic effects.
Quote:
I doubt that you will find anywhere in the universe, at least in our "known universe" where there is literally zero gravity...
All physical data has an error to it. So this statement is somewhat useless.
Quote:
distant galaxies are still pulling on you, even if it's slight, and I imagine no matter how far out you get you will still be affected by the center of the universe.
So what? Some small charge a zillion light years away also somewhat attracts you. But that's absolutely negligible.
Quote:
(While we may not have proven that the universe has a center, look at everything else in space...it makes logical sense that everything is revolving around something because that just seems to be how it works.
Mere speculation. Moreover you don't seem have much understanding of the shape of the universe. You're thinking 3+1 dimensional, not 4 dimensional.
Quote:
Anyway, point is, if you're getting at time running "infinitely fast" I doubt it's possible.
Doesn't make sense without mentioning a point of reference.
Quote:
That being said, theoretically you should be able to get pretty damn close to time "stopping" as you near a black hole, I would think. Technically though, if I understand correctly, black holes do not literally have infinite gravity. Otherwise, it seems their formation would destroy the entire universe.
Let's leave the black holes to those that understand general relativity and the mathematics associated with it.
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superhigh
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: tokinman21]
#15807804 - 02/14/12 10:23 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
tokinman21 said:
What we're trying to get at though, is that "correct" is irrelevant. Time itself would be moving faster, so if you have something running a clock program in space, and the atoms themselves are moving faster because they are in a lighter gravitational field, the clock will still run faster.
CPU speed doesn't hold much significance in terms of running a simple clock program. Even a handheld calculator can run a clock program correctly, let alone a satelitte in outer space.
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tokinman21
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: superhigh]
#15807819 - 02/14/12 10:27 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
superhigh said:
Quote:
tokinman21 said:
What we're trying to get at though, is that "correct" is irrelevant. Time itself would be moving faster, so if you have something running a clock program in space, and the atoms themselves are moving faster because they are in a lighter gravitational field, the clock will still run faster.
CPU speed doesn't hold much significance in terms of running a simple clock program. Even a handheld calculator can run a clock program correctly, let alone a satelitte in outer space.
That doesn't matter. It is an electronic device, which means it operates by moving electrons around. If those electrons are moving faster, the clock will move faster. Period.
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superhigh
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: tokinman21]
#15807824 - 02/14/12 10:28 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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So a CPU in outer space cannot be safeguarded from this external modulation?
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Lord_McLovin
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Quote:
Could gravity change the speed of subatomic particles?
This is a somewhat funny question as gravity means acceleration of massful objects. More generally it means curvature of space time. This is why light is also effected by it even though light is generally considered massless.
Quote:
It would cause a change in how fast something would take to happen.
I don't know what you mean.
@superhigh
You have to understand that this is a property of space(time), not just some error caused by some funny physical effect.
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tokinman21
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: superhigh]
#15807854 - 02/14/12 10:35 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
superhigh said:
So a CPU in outer space cannot be safeguarded from this external modulation?
Only if it is able to somehow detect the level of gravity and account for it. A simple CPU will be affected by gravity anywhere it goes, yes. There is a reason that pdf I linked to specified biological clocks as well...it's because as far as we know, EVERYTHING is subject to this fluctuation. Your heart beats slower in higher gravity as well...now if you go in higher gravity and measure your heartbeat, it would be the same because your clock is also slowed down. If you were to measure it somehow with instruments outside of your gravitational level (not that I know how that could be possible) then you would see that it's slowed down.
Point is, time is purely relativistic. It does not seem to be a "fixed" thing as you have likely been trained to believe. You need to come to terms with that.
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mylfgur
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: tokinman21] 1
#15807878 - 02/14/12 10:42 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Looks like some people need to brush up on their general relativity and physical chemistry.
--------------------
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Lord_McLovin
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: tokinman21]
#15807891 - 02/14/12 10:45 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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@tokinman
I think you also misunderstand. "Time goes slower" means if you were to watch someone being less effected by gravity and who is not moving relative to you would watch his clock (i.e. his time) going faster than yours.
There is no absolute "pace of time", everything is relative to another 'observer'. That being said there is also no absolute simultaneity.
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tokinman21
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Quote:
Lord_McLovin said:
@tokinman
I think you also misunderstand. "Time goes slower" means if you were to watch someone being less effected by gravity and who is not moving relative to you would watch his clock (i.e. his time) going faster than yours.
There is no absolute "pace of time", everything is relative to another 'observer'. That being said there is also no absolute simultaneity.
That's pretty much...exactly what I said. Maybe I wasn't clear, but I do have a firm grasp on what you're saying. That's what I meant when I said it was "purely relativistic."
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superhigh
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: Harri]
#15807918 - 02/14/12 10:54 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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I think some of the guitar work in this Velvet Underground performance sounds like the internal mechanism of a clock:
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Lord_McLovin
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Quote:
That's pretty much...exactly what I said. Maybe I wasn't clear, but I do have a firm grasp on what you're saying. That's what I meant when I said it was "purely relativistic."
I'm sorry, it just seemed a little confusing. Noone should be led to believe that gravity makes one move in slow motion. 
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tokinman21
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Quote:
Lord_McLovin said:
Quote:
That's pretty much...exactly what I said. Maybe I wasn't clear, but I do have a firm grasp on what you're saying. That's what I meant when I said it was "purely relativistic."
I'm sorry, it just seemed a little confusing. Noone should be led to believe that gravity makes one move in slow motion.
Yeah, my bad...I just meant to say that if you could observe it externally (like, say you were God and had a full comprehension of time) you would see certain things moving slower than others if you were to set a "standard" level of gravity. Things on jupiter would seem to be going slower than on mars, for example.
The simplest way to say that is just with the clock reference. If you put a clock on a mountain it will tick more times in a hundred years than if it were in a valley.
Edited by tokinman21 (02/14/12 11:09 AM)
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Lord_McLovin
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: tokinman21]
#15808061 - 02/14/12 11:37 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
tokinman21 said:
Yeah, my bad...I just meant to say that if you could observe it externally (like, say you were God and had a full comprehension of time) you would see certain things moving slower than others if you were to set a "standard" level of gravity.
Let me reformulate this. You don't need to be god, it's enough to be in a spaceship sufficiently far awar from the dude on the (incredibly massive) planet you're watching (and of course not to close to, say, a star) and, to keep things nice, not moving relative to him.
What you mean with "'standard' level of gravity" is called flat space(time) (i.e. not being curved by gravity, negligible effect of gravity).
The point is there cannot be an absolute comprehension of time, only a comprehension of causality. This also means that "god", if you refer to it as some higher omniscient form of consciousness, cannot have such as absolute time simply doesn't exist - it's something we made up. Actually this all follows from the constancy of the speed of light.
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tokinman21
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Quote:
Lord_McLovin said:
Quote:
tokinman21 said:
Yeah, my bad...I just meant to say that if you could observe it externally (like, say you were God and had a full comprehension of time) you would see certain things moving slower than others if you were to set a "standard" level of gravity.
Let me reformulate this. You don't need to be god, it's enough to be in a spaceship sufficiently far awar from the dude on the (incredibly massive) planet you're watching (and of course not to close to, say, a star) and, to keep things nice, not moving relative to him.
What you mean with "'standard' level of gravity" is called flat space(time) (i.e. not being curved by gravity, negligible effect of gravity).
The point is there cannot be an absolute comprehension of time, only a comprehension of causality. This also means that "god", if you refer to it as some higher omniscient form of consciousness, cannot have such as absolute time simply doesn't exist - it's something we made up. Actually this all follows from the constancy of the speed of light.
But a true "God" wouldn't be outside of the time, it would BE the time, so of course God can understand it whether it has a pattern or not. Now I'm just arguing the semantics of God though, which is not only irrelevant to this thread but probably to everything else as well.
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Lord_McLovin
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Re: Past/Future aren't real [Re: tokinman21]
#15808110 - 02/14/12 12:02 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
tokinman21 said:
Quote:
Lord_McLovin said:
The point is there cannot be an absolute comprehension of time, only a comprehension of causality. This also means that "god", if you refer to it as some higher omniscient form of consciousness, cannot have such as absolute time simply doesn't exist - it's something we made up. Actually this all follows from the constancy of the speed of light.
But a true "God" wouldn't be outside of the time, it would BE the time, so of course God can understand it whether it has a pattern or not. Now I'm just arguing the semantics of God though, which is not only irrelevant to this thread but probably to everything else as well.
I'm glad that fell for my offer to change the topic a bit as I feel we're boring some people who else would be interested in this thread.
Your criticism is very justified. The idea of some invisible being in the skies overseeing everything seems very childish considering the very structure of our universe (i.e. spacetime).
It appears that our concept of god is just so childish and man-made. I'm very much convinced that, no matter how you call it, that the fundamental structure of the world we live in is so ineffably beautiful that no book could ever manage to describe it appropriately - that the only thing that is able to fully pay respect to it is the experience of life itself.
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tokinman21
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Quote:
Lord_McLovin said:
Quote:
tokinman21 said:
Quote:
Lord_McLovin said:
The point is there cannot be an absolute comprehension of time, only a comprehension of causality. This also means that "god", if you refer to it as some higher omniscient form of consciousness, cannot have such as absolute time simply doesn't exist - it's something we made up. Actually this all follows from the constancy of the speed of light.
But a true "God" wouldn't be outside of the time, it would BE the time, so of course God can understand it whether it has a pattern or not. Now I'm just arguing the semantics of God though, which is not only irrelevant to this thread but probably to everything else as well.
I'm glad that fell for my offer to change the topic a bit as I feel we're boring some people who else would be interested in this thread.
Your criticism is very justified. The idea of some invisible being in the skies overseeing everything seems very childish considering the very structure of our universe (i.e. spacetime).
It appears that our concept of god is just so childish and man-made. I'm very much convinced that, no matter how you call it, that the fundamental structure of the world we live in is so ineffably beautiful that no book could ever manage to describe it appropriately - that the only thing that is able to fully pay respect to it is the experience of life itself.
Well said, brother. 
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