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 PHi-l
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Registered: 02/10/12
Posts: 12
Last seen: 2 months, 25 days
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 Cyclical Automated Growth System 
#15789235 - 02/10/12 03:40 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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Mushroom, like most organisms, is naturally a part of a densely interconnected network of cooperative relationships, self-regulating feedback cycles, with an unique and particular role in within a given ecosystem.
Based on these premises, I propose the idea of creating an automated system that in effect "mimics" the ecosystem in which the mushroom thrives in. The implication of such a system are obvious; continual growth, rapid development of certain compounds, and of course automation.
Critical goals include:
-identifying the environment and environmental parameters for optimal production
-materials to facilitate the interaction of mycelium with delivery of nutrients and respiration
-exactly what these nutrients are in their most basic form and in their respective ratios for a given species
So, basically a mycological bio-reactor.
This post is mainly an insight for me into what to expect and potential challenges that may arise.
PLEASE if what you say has to go something like:
"What the hell for? I've been growing mine on shit for years and that has to be the best way of doing it"
OR
"It's never going to work"
Don't pollute the thread! I understand why you would say that and that is not the point of this endeavor. The point is to do something that's not been done before, and in the process discover natures hidden secrets.
Any CONSTRUCTIVE insight is appreciated.
Edited by PHi-l (02/10/12 03:43 PM)
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acidblue
when soundbecomes colour
Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 87
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Re: Cyclical Automated Growth System [Re: PHi-l]
#15790849 - 02/10/12 11:07 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
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Sounds good, I'll be brainstorming and I will post when I have an idea.
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mikesethnobotany
Future D.O.
Registered: 07/29/11
Posts: 1,133
Loc: Missouri, USA
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Re: Cyclical Automated Growth System [Re: acidblue]
#15790933 - 02/10/12 11:46 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
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Im not sure if you're wanting to actually fruit mushrooms in a type of contained ecosystem
like those we may someday implement on mars, with soil, plants, animals, etc., or if you're just wanting to grow mycelium in fermenting chambers?
There are many variables which you simply cannot mimic in a metal vat of liquid for one.
The other hard part is experimenting on one variable at a time, since there are hundreds of
potential variables that can promote mycelial or mushroom growth; Thats not even to
mention that combining all of these variables may prove to have different "bests" than if
you ran experiments on them singled out, much like the saying that the sum is better than the individual parts. Off the top of my head for variables you will need to work with, you've
got:
Light Intensity**
Light Wavelength**
CO2 Levels**
O2 Levels**
Water in substrate
Micronutrients
Macronutrients
pH of substrate**
Temperature**
Relative Humidity **
Species of Wood or type of soil
Casing material?
Aeration of Substrate
Plants that live in symbiosis
Bacteria living in symbiosis
Physical Shock or Stimulus (thunder, rain, tree breaking, for morels it is thought that excess heat from forest fires may stimulate fruit body formation)
** Variables which are fluctuated in professional cultivation of mushrooms to stimulate
natural conditions for pinning and fruit body formation. More experiments necessary to
figure out which fluctuations work best.
As you can see, even with this small list of factors which is incomparable in relation to the
stupendous amount of variables found in the perfect environment mother nature provides,
you are going to spend a lifetime of research to discover merely half of the variables
needed for "optimum" production.
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Mycelio
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I think this is already in use for quite a while. There have been thorough studies for the common medical species, regarding optimum nutrients, PH, temperature, etc. vs. maximum output of bioactive substances like glucanes or extracellular enzymes. Just do a web search and also look into the production of Quorn.
Carsten
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PHi-l
Stranger
Registered: 02/10/12
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Re: Cyclical Automated Growth System [Re: Mycelio]
#15792308 - 02/11/12 10:48 AM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
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@mikesethnobotany,
Your initial question is a good one.
As is my understanding, for the species that I will be working with, certain compounds begin forming within the mycelium during the initiation of pins and the fruiting process. This would lead me to believe that a liquid culture fermentation would not yield the desired result. However I am not entirely familiar with the metabolic mechanism of the formation of[3-(2-Diethylaminethyl)-1H-4-yl] dihydrogen phosphate within the organism. Some clarification if possible would be nice. Also, I thank you for the list of process variables. This will gives me a good idea of the level of hardware and programming required and a good basis for further researching.
And as for creating a system for NASA, hmmm, $$$
@Mycelio
Quorn is based on the mirofungus Fusarium venenatum. A microfungus does not have a multicellular fruiting body, which would further reinforce the conclusion that a liquid culture fermentation process would not work with a fruiting species. Also, could you reference me to those studies you mentioned.
Edited by PHi-l (02/11/12 10:56 AM)
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Cyclical Automated Growth System [Re: PHi-l] 1
#15792434 - 02/11/12 11:23 AM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
PHi-l said:
Based on these premises, I propose the idea of creating an automated system that in effect "mimics" the ecosystem in which the mushroom thrives in. The implication of such a system are obvious; continual growth, rapid development of certain compounds, and of course automation.
If you do that, you'll get a bag of mushrooms from 20 acres or so of real estate, just like in the wild. We don't mimick the natural environment to grow mushrooms because artificial sterile culture has been developed to the point where we can grow 1000 or more times as much product as we'd be able to grow in the same area using natural methods.
We also can't automate delivery of nutrients directly to the mycelium, because mycelium needs to digest solid food. This is why mushrooms don't grow hydroponically. Therefore we need to make solid food available to the mycelium which has the required elements.
RR
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www.mushroomvideos.com
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
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PHi-l
Stranger
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Re: Cyclical Automated Growth System [Re: RogerRabbit]
#15792734 - 02/11/12 12:30 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
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@RogerRabbit,
I can see you are a well respected member of this forum, however I think you missed the point.
When you say "you'll get a bag of mushrooms from 20 acres or so of real estate, just like in the wild"
you must mean that the mushroom is a small part of the total ecosystem. Surely you don't see a 20 acre "mushroom forest". it is in understanding the role of the mushroom in this system that you can optimize its growth in a "synthetic" large output arrangement.
By the way, how do think that artificial sterile culture has been developed to the point where we can grow 1000 or more times as much product?
- through the understanding of natural processes.
I only proposed to further this understanding through the use of technology new materials, ideas, and practices.
Would you know why mushrooms need "solid food" besides the answer of years of observation?
Besides, I think that this falls under:
"What the hell for? I've been growing mine on shit for years and that has to be the best way of doing it"
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Mycelio
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Re: Cyclical Automated Growth System [Re: RogerRabbit]
#15792746 - 02/11/12 12:32 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
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PHi-l, do you want to grow Psilocybe cubensis on a conveyor belt? It's hard to understand what you are after.
Carsten
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RatherBeInTheWoods
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Re: Cyclical Automated Growth System [Re: Mycelio]
#15793123 - 02/11/12 02:02 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
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I had this same thought on a more basic level. My thinking was using whole grain as a casing layer and letting it grow. The co2 produced from the respiration of the mycelium would be used by the growing seedlings converting it into o2. This would bypass the need for filters and such by being able to have a sealed container thereby reducing the risk of contamination.
The only problem with this would be one how to sterilize the grain/seed without killing it and two the growing seedlings would be using up the nutrients that the mycelium needed for its growth.
I use this process in reef aquariums to some extent.One example would be providing separate tanks connected to the main tank filled with various algae. This tank is on a reverse photo period to provide a way to harvest the nutrients that are produced by the fish,corals,crabs,etc and counter act the build up of co2 not being used by the symbiotic algae within the corals and macro algae in the main tank when lights are off.
This is only one part of a entire system/community of various organisms that are used for one reason or another to provide the balance/stability that the corals need in order to grow.
As RogerRabbit It would be hard to provide the space for all the different organisms that are needed to achieve this balance. Although I think it would def. work and fun to do, your yield would be greatly reduced compared to a closed system.
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 nooneman
Stranger
Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 2,897
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Re: Cyclical Automated Growth System [Re: PHi-l]
#15794290 - 02/11/12 06:29 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Based on these premises, I propose the idea of creating an automated system that in effect "mimics" the ecosystem in which the mushroom thrives in. The implication of such a system are obvious; continual growth, rapid development of certain compounds, and of course automation.
Critical goals include:
-identifying the environment and environmental parameters for optimal production
-materials to facilitate the interaction of mycelium with delivery of nutrients and respiration
-exactly what these nutrients are in their most basic form and in their respective ratios for a given species
We've already done all of this.
It seems like you don't understand that the current techniques are optimal. It's not just randomly "growing in shit." Everything that's done in modern cultivation is done for a reason. It's not like people are just randomly loading jars with BRF. Lots of people have tried lots of ingredients and use BRF for a reason. For example, BRF isn't as good as rye berries, but to sterlize rye berries you've got to either use a pressure cooker, or boil for 8 hours instead of 90 minutes. Current technique is already optimal, that's why people use it, and that's why it was invented in the first place.
An SGFC is an engineered environment that provides optimal amounts of humidity, FAE, and light. An SGFC (or monotub for that matter) with a light on a timer, and a spray bottle on a timer, and a fan on a timer is probably about the most automated it can get.
Edited by nooneman (02/11/12 06:30 PM)
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PHi-l
Stranger
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Re: Cyclical Automated Growth System [Re: nooneman]
#15794692 - 02/11/12 07:42 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
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@RatherBeInTheWoods,
You have the right idea, but I'm going for synthetic symbiosis. interfacing the biological organism with man made materials and machine.
I realize that I will never emulate nature in its entirety,and reach "optimum"conditions, but I may be able to get pretty damn close. And if I do not succeed, the wealth of knowledge gained will be high above what anyone else can conceive.
@Mycelio,
A conveyor belt is linear, precisely what the current technique is, and not what the idea is. the idea is what I said above.
It seems like the only one who even know what I'm trying to do is mikesethnobotany. And his insight is well worth noting.
Although this will take considerable time, I do not believe that there are an infinite amount of variables to be controlled. I will start with the most critical for life and work from there. the goal is to try and emulate nature, and a deeper understanding of the organism is required.
I am an engineer not a biologist or mycologist and thus need ones expertise. The latter is the reason for joining this forum NOT to be told it can't happen.
to do all the research and work required alone would indeed be insane.
can anyone answer the question of the viability of a liquid culture fermentation of cubensis?
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mikesethnobotany
Future D.O.
Registered: 07/29/11
Posts: 1,133
Loc: Missouri, USA
Last seen: 2 days, 21 hours
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Re: Cyclical Automated Growth System [Re: PHi-l]
#15794759 - 02/11/12 07:53 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
It seems like the only one who even know what I'm trying to do is mikesethnobotany.
I am still not 100% sure what you are going for, but I think I get the gist. This forum
has tons of information on growing mushrooms and expert cultivators like RR can
provide invaluable knowledge on the subject, but as mycelio has stated, you are going
to need to do research for peer-reviewed scientific articles. If you don't
have a background with biology then you will surely not understand half of the words
or language of those types of papers, which even I (my major is cell and molecular biology)
don't understand some of the language in them. You will be much
better off finding a friend who can aid you for this project and that someone needs to have a strong biology background
IMO. Most genius ideas are highly scrutinized at first so don't give up! Glad I did benefit
you in some way at least.
-Mike
--------------------
TRADE LIST
CULTIVATION GUIDES
"What would you choose Dean, Peace or Freedom?"
- Supernatural
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PHi-l
Stranger
Registered: 02/10/12
Posts: 12
Last seen: 2 months, 25 days
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@mikesethnobotany,
I can assure you I'm no genius, but am glad to hear that there is some faith in the idea. looks like have to approach this in a different manner. thank you.
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 37,009
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Re: Cyclical Automated Growth System [Re: PHi-l]
#15795056 - 02/11/12 08:48 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
PHi-l said:
I realize that I will never emulate nature in its entirety,and reach "optimum"conditions, but I may be able to get pretty damn close. And if I do not succeed, the wealth of knowledge gained will be high above what anyone else can conceive.
Don't come in here assuming we're all idiots and you're the only enlightened voice in a circus of fools. You'll be mercilessly flamed for ignorant arrogance and fully deserve it.
RR
--------------------
www.mushroomvideos.com
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
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PHi-l
Stranger
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Re: Cyclical Automated Growth System [Re: RogerRabbit]
#15795291 - 02/11/12 09:37 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Your right RR, that was a poor choice in words.
I came here assuming you were all experts and would offer some kind advice, guidance, insight, (be what you call it) toward what I am trying to accomplish.
If you believe that the quest for knowledge and truth deserves reprimand, flame on old man.
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 pseudotsuga
brother
Registered: 06/29/11
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Re: Cyclical Automated Growth System [Re: PHi-l]
#15797256 - 02/12/12 11:04 AM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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RR is very much an expert and gave his expert advice on the topic, though he may not have addressed what it is you are really wanting to be answered. His point being that nature can't produce more mushrooms per sq ft than what a cultivator can do in lab set up, so why would you want mimic nature? especially given that trying to replicate the infinite nuances a natural environment is more difficult than mushroom cultivation needs to be.
To really help you get at the environmental factors you should be focusing on, you should at least give us some species you are thinking of working with as all the things you posted on you list of critical goals is largely dependent on which species it is.
Are you looking to be able to throw growing substrate and spores in sterile metal chamber and then after a month or two you open it to find fully formed mushrooms? What specifically do you mean by cyclical automation?
Are you wanting to make an industrial automated grow or something for personal use?
IMO, this sounds like a complicated and expensive way to try and produces mushrooms. good luck trying to prove people wrong!
--------------------
"Best to be like water,
which benefits the ten thousand things
and does not contend.
it pools where humans disdain to dwell,
close to the Tao."
Tao Te Ching
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PHi-l
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Re: Cyclical Automated Growth System [Re: pseudotsuga]
#15797505 - 02/12/12 12:00 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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@pseudotsuga,
Quote:
To really help you get at the environmental factors you should be focusing on, you should at least give us some species you are thinking of working with as all the things you posted on you list of critical goals is largely dependent on which species it is.
This is a good question because the only species I have worked with is Psilocybe cubensis and would logically start there. As for finding a species that would best suit the application (accept the artificial system and nutrients that I would "pump"to it), I would have to ask a mycologist.
As for throwing substrate and spores into a metal can and birthing mushrooms. yes that would be the desired result, but less throwing and more careful setup and execution.
perhaps the technology doesn't exist yet to make this a reality:
-my thought of interweaving the mycelia with an array of microfluidic channels to deliver nutrients may be far into the future.
the cyclical automation concept is really simple. currently a substrate is; inoculated, colonized, fruited for a few flushes, then samples are kept for future use of the same process over again. with cyclical automation this would all be done on a continuous cycle within the machine just like in nature.
Expensive? Time consuming? anything worthwhile always is
its really just a proof of concept not an industrial production. could it be applied to industrial production? possibly. the technology can also be applied (as previously mentioned) to producing a stable food supply for astronauts.
I see the organism as an atomic machine that can be interfaced with manmade machines
maybe im oversimplifying the complex biological processes to the point where I can see this working but again, im an engineer not a biologist I can say that I know next to nothing about these systems.
The questions are:
Will liquid culture fermentation work to produce compound for a fruiting species?
What species should I investigate to suit the application?
what exactly happens on the cellular level?(the full cycle)
I guess I will have to dedicate weeks of research into the last one
Edited by PHi-l (02/12/12 12:15 PM)
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Terry M
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Re: Cyclical Automated Growth System [Re: PHi-l]
#15798180 - 02/12/12 02:06 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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I think you first need to do a literature search and see if this or something like it has already been done. Some of my best ideas have been gotten to first -- sometimes at least 10 years before!
Here's one paper you should probably read:
Mycological culture in microchannels
Bassett, J.; Walker, G.; Beebe, D.
Engineering in Medicine and Biology, 2002. 24th Annual Conference and the Annual Fall Meeting of the Biomedical Engineering Society EMBS/BMES Conference, 2002. Proceedings of the Second Joint.
Abstract
A new method is described for the culture of fungi in static conditions. This system uses microscale structures (e.g. microchannels) as enclosed culture chambers for fungi. Devices are constructed with channels of variable scale to form three dimensional culture containment vessels capable of orientation in any plane. Preliminary results of morphological identification are presented.
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=1137013
I can't download this and look at it because while I'm an IEEE member, I don't have the right set of journal subscriptions. As you probably know, the IEEE has a zoo of different specialized journals, each set with their own costly membership access.
--------------------
Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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PHi-l
Stranger
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Re: Cyclical Automated Growth System [Re: Terry M]
#15798537 - 02/12/12 03:07 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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@Terry M
Great reference. Im working on getting the permissions necessary to read it.
Thank you
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mycoelf
Agent Of Chaos
Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 491
Loc: hyperspace 
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Re: Cyclical Automated Growth System [Re: PHi-l]
#15800648 - 02/12/12 09:44 PM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Mycelium gets old, mushrooms are temporary community's so in the first leg of the race what (I think ) you are proposing is going to have to be fundamentally re structured. Higher mycelium are not yeast, they are not perpetually renewing provided the proper environment etc type of creatures. Cultivation science geared for production IS currently advanced, and honestly if you want to spend a billion dollars in research to discover what growers already know, well I hope it is a good paying gig for you anyway,,,,,
It is called prior art for a reason. The feeling I get here is that you are a collage student, maybe a grad looking for a project. If you take the time and effort to learn prior art, and master every aspect of spawn generation and growing, then perhaps the territory will be mapped well enough for you to consider breaking the rules and re-inventing the wheel.
I don't like the tone that you took with RR. I don't like the tone he took with you, but you deserved a correction for coming off with disrespect. As a young buck I always figured which of the elders that were around were in the "know" and then went and asked, as a student, with the proper humility, because I was the one who was seeking, always quicker to listen then to talk, and always got a more then enthusiastic response because I was respectful and helpful to those teachers who took the time to invest in me. The knowledge on this website is vast, comprehensive, and represents the equivalent in millions of dollars of research, millions of man hours spent teaching, and learning. The teachers here want to teach because they want to pass on what they have learned. You might consider takeing a more respectful and student like tone in your query, and you will find this respect will go a long way.
I don't mean to disparage you, but UTFSE, learn your prior art, get some experience with more than just cubs (which are ironically about the easiest mushrooms to grow on planet earth)and when you have mastery of all these things, then form and present a viable theory, with some real experimental data, and I bet you will get a better response.The human element that is present here on the shroomery is vastly knowledgeable and I am sure is all about something new and or cool, but you got to keep it real, ya know?
--------------------
Mycoelf
I love to trade wedges. Currently looking for a nice brick top and Pleurotus Eunosmus the Tarragon Oyster. I am also getting interested in the agaricus, so if you have a cool agaricus in good genetic condition PM me please
Sterility is a process that can be likened unto infinity, which is a long walk, the closer to the end you start before beginning, the more achievable the goal of infinity becomes. Remember, cleanliness in next to goddessness
    
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