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 Powdered_Toastman
o lucid one
Registered: 05/30/11
Posts: 347
Last seen: 1 day, 11 hours
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 The World Is An Illusion? 
#15787085 - 02/10/12 02:31 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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I mean, it's a cute idea to muse that life as we know it is all some grand illusion, or that the entire planet is one atom inside a gigantic creature who itself is but an atom inside an even larger creature, and so on ad nauseum.
However, this just isn't practical when faced with even the lightest level of scrutiny. First off, if the world I live in is an illusion, why is it such a consistent illusion? If you put me and a friend in a room with an orange, we'd both be able to see and interact with the orange. My friend doesn't see the orange as a grape or a piranha. My point being, how come we are all part of the same illusion? Our perceptions may vary slighty (eg/ my friend is colorblind), but our sensory input of the world is the same.
I'm mainly asking because I read somewhere that there's a quantum mechanics principle based on this very idea.
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"When things start to happen
Dont worry dont stew
Just go right along
Youll start happening too."
- Dr. Seuss
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dkmonk
Psychonaut Lover
Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 321
Loc: Indiana
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I would say it is neither illusion nor truth, but what is seen is best compared to looking through a key hole to see into a room. What you see isn't can't be be described as false, but also can't be described as the room in entirety.
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First Grow Golden Teacher Koh Samui - in progress
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15330714
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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,604
Loc: underbelly
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I think the world is an intrusion.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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dkmonk
Psychonaut Lover
Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 321
Loc: Indiana
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
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 Re: The World Is An Illusion? [Re: Icelander]
#15787306 - 02/10/12 04:26 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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An intrusion on your senses?
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First Grow Golden Teacher Koh Samui - in progress
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15330714
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BadAcid
PLUR 2011>
Registered: 06/23/10
Posts: 224
Loc: UK 
Last seen: 2 months, 14 days
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Re: The World Is An Illusion? [Re: dkmonk]
#15787312 - 02/10/12 04:30 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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because we are all one, god, and can therefore see the orange, who is also god.
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People can fly
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BadAcid
PLUR 2011>
Registered: 06/23/10
Posts: 224
Loc: UK
Last seen: 2 months, 14 days
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Re: The World Is An Illusion? [Re: BadAcid]
#15787327 - 02/10/12 04:41 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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The real illusion is individuality and seperation
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People can fly
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,604
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The World Is An Illusion? [Re: dkmonk] 2
#15787367 - 02/10/12 05:16 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
dkmonk said:
An intrusion on your senses?
Yeah, there I was being "nothing", minding my own business and the world buggered in and messed up my fun.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
Edited by Icelander (02/10/12 05:17 AM)
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dkmonk
Psychonaut Lover
Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 321
Loc: Indiana
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
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Re: The World Is An Illusion? [Re: Icelander]
#15787401 - 02/10/12 05:41 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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That is pretty rude to disturb you.
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First Grow Golden Teacher Koh Samui - in progress
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15330714
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
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Loc: Red Panda Village
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Quote:
Powdered_Toastman said:
First off, if the world I live in is an illusion, why is it such a consistent illusion?
Because the people who would attest to such an idea have become more aware of the nature of how their perceptions function, and then become confused into thinking that, due to this manner of functioning, that which they perceive isn't actually real. Of course they are wrong, but at least they've started down the path to more awareness of how perception functions. 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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Samurai Drifter
Wandering Mindfuck
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 5,042
Loc: Frosted
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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Quote:
Powdered_Toastman said:
First off, if the world I live in is an illusion, why is it such a consistent illusion?
I don't know that it's all that consistent. Anyone living a thousand years ago would have a completely different view of reality than we have today, and someone living a thousand years in the future might as well.
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If you put me and a friend in a room with an orange, we'd both be able to see and interact with the orange.
From your perspective, at least.
Quote:
My friend doesn't see the orange as a grape or a piranha.
How do you know? All you can be sure of is that you use the same word, not that you actually see the same thing.
Quote:
My point being, how come we are all part of the same illusion? Our perceptions may vary slighty (eg/ my friend is colorblind), but our sensory input of the world is the same.
Again, how do you know that anyone's perception is the same as yours, and that they're not just using the same word?
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I'm mainly asking because I read somewhere that there's a quantum mechanics principle based on this very idea.
Quantum mechanics is based on research and mathematics, not obscure philosophical analogies.
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The obstacle is the path.
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soldatheero
lastirishman
Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,588
Loc: 
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
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Quote:
I mean, it's a cute idea to muse that life as we know it is all some grand illusion, or that the entire planet is one atom inside a gigantic creature who itself is but an atom inside an even larger creature, and so on ad nauseum.
However, this just isn't practical when faced with even the lightest level of scrutiny. First off, if the world I live in is an illusion, why is it such a consistent illusion? If you put me and a friend in a room with an orange, we'd both be able to see and interact with the orange. My friend doesn't see the orange as a grape or a piranha. My point being, how come we are all part of the same illusion? Our perceptions may vary slighty (eg/ my friend is colorblind), but our sensory input of the world is the same.
I'm mainly asking because I read somewhere that there's a quantum mechanics principle based on this very idea.
I'd say that the illusion is governed by laws because what is generating the illusion (what is real) is operating under strict causal laws. From what I understand these laws are laws of pereption. The reason we all experience the same illusion together is because all that is experienced is ultimately done by the universal perceiver. In reality there is only one stream of perception in which finite experiences (our individual experiences/minds) occur. In this we are all one.
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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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WakeUp
Unknown
Registered: 02/06/12
Posts: 31
Last seen: 3 months, 15 days
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Its an illusion in that it appears to stand on its own, independent. In reality, it is dependent upon the observer, and the observers attention.
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 23,674
Loc: Red Panda Village
Last seen: 3 hours, 27 minutes
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
I don't know that it's all that consistent. Anyone living a thousand years ago would have a completely different view of reality than we have today, and someone living a thousand years in the future might as well.
A completely different view? That seems like a complete exaggeration to me.
Beyond that, the difference is that the world views of the past have been built upon. I really don't agree at all with the conception that what you refer to here is any kind of basis to consider that the world isn't actually all that consistent. 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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circastes
i did it for tha bliss
Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 3,585
Loc: 
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We all see the same illusion because we are all the same mind.
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Find me in the backyard, sailing my kettle. Playing poker with insects, wearing a cup of tea. A hat of brimstone, yellow-crimson, looking like a giant flea. Forever my friend: so my energy this day I lend, I practice faking it to pretend, and become the actor in the end. My folly hangs on the trees like leaves and drips in the falling breeze, the tock of a minute here shakes me to my knees.
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 23,674
Loc: Red Panda Village
Last seen: 3 hours, 27 minutes
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Re: The World Is An Illusion? [Re: circastes]
#15788659 - 02/10/12 01:42 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
circastes said:
We all see the same illusion because we are all the same mind.
In a sense, yup.
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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 millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 4,631
Last seen: 3 minutes, 13 seconds
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on this subject, i'll refer to my logic text because it simply cannot be stated any better.
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concepts are rooted in the essence of things, therefore truth has an objective norm in the real.
truth = reality
we abstract essence from our perceptions and communicate that information to each other. if there was nothing external to perceive, we would not be even be able to communicate with each other at all. it is true that we are subjectively experiencing reality, but to toss reality out of that statement is, quite frankly, hippy bullshit.
Edited by millzy (02/10/12 03:58 PM)
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Erasmo
Stranger
Registered: 10/29/11
Posts: 39
Last seen: 17 days, 21 hours
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The problem is that you are using the rules of the "illusion" (such as truth being consistent, the existence of autonomous observers (you and your friend)) to disprove its existence. If everything is an illusion then the truth behind the illusion is unknowable, even incomprehensible.
Your ideas of what constitute illusion vs. reality is based off of your life experience i.e. the very illusion you are addressing. How do you know that an illusion is not constant? How can we know that there are such things such as other people and differing sensory perceptions? Maybe this world is an illusion and you are really in a padded room hallucinating everything, or maybe we are all "god" and individuality is an illusion. We can't prove the validity of our perception beyond a doubt, there is no proof possible. Fortunately, the world that affects us is the one we perceive as real, so even if I am hallucinating everything, at least I can make decisions based off of my perceptions and enjoy the illusion.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,604
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The World Is An Illusion? [Re: Erasmo]
#15793294 - 02/11/12 02:47 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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I agree
Welcome stranger. 
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Erasmo
Stranger
Registered: 10/29/11
Posts: 39
Last seen: 17 days, 21 hours
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Re: The World Is An Illusion? [Re: Icelander]
#15793330 - 02/11/12 02:59 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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I think the real usefulness of the "grand illusion" theory is that it reminds me not to overvalue perception, as it is only a mental representation. At the same time it keeps me grateful that I have a consistent perception of reality. Not everyone gets that blessing. Imagine how much of a drag it would be to live life like a DPH trip, walking into walls, talking to people who aren't there, and other fun shit like that.
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Samurai Drifter
Wandering Mindfuck
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 5,042
Loc: Frosted
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
A completely different view? That seems like a complete exaggeration to me.
The greeks of a thousand years ago believed the Sun was a god, and that there was a tribunal of celestial beings living on Mt. Olympus. That was their reality at that time. It was also believed that the world was flat and that Earth was the center of the Universe. This was considered to be truth at the time. Now science has uprooted these truths once so strongly believed -- but as our science advances, what will we discover that we have been wrong about?
Quote:
Beyond that, the difference is that the world views of the past have been built upon.
Some of them have. Some of them have been completely discarded (like many I mentioned above).
Quote:
I really don't agree at all with the conception that what you refer to here is any kind of basis to consider that the world isn't actually all that consistent.
I'm not saying that it is or isn't, only that its possible.
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The obstacle is the path.
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