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 dkmonk
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 Science being a religion to people.  1
#15786794 - 02/10/12 12:41 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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Let me say first that I enjoy science and its discoveries and like to have facts. It is very valuable and important to satisfying our curiosity as humans. I do wish more of its discoveries were predominantly used for pure good, then greed and power, but that is life.
I think a lot of people are so wrapped up in it being the all knowing truth that is concrete so much that they are blinded by it and not able to imagine something that hasn't been proven or measured, so its existence must be impossible.
It is if they are the Radical's of religion, but complete opposite and radical to science when it is subject to change at any time.
If it were't for someone having contridicting ideas about something that science believes to be true then we would not have many of the discoveries we have today.
I think just because you hear there was a new discovery or something has been tested a few hundred times doesn't make it true, maybe the tests aren't being performed in the a manner where they will only get that answer, or doesn't show some additional information to the answer that keeps occurring.
It would be easy for someone to put on a lab coat with a degree, and gather these hardened science believers in a room and lie out there teeth and provide a bunch of data to their claims, and because he spent half his life in school, works in a lab, and has a certain job title makes his statement infallible to them.
I believe science discoveries to be true, but don't view them as absolute truth, and still use my mind to not block out the possibilities that there can be a possible different scenario or that the information can be expounded on and what has been discovered is just the tip of what there is to learn about that theory.
I think with anything a medium is needed, so we aren't ignorant to other possibilities limiting our self which is counterproductive to the field.
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 Mr Person
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Re: Science being a religion to people. [Re: dkmonk] 1
#15786845 - 02/10/12 01:00 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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Every branch of science has a horizon we can't see beyond that gradually recedes as more nuanced interpretations emerge. For every new thing we learn we prove an earlier belief naively mistaken at best. Until we have consilience among the physical sciences we can't begin to understand the more complex systems that underpin mental phenomena and consciousness, much less macrosystems like climate, ecology, and evolution. To hold a hard line on scientific materialism is no more rational than fundamentalist religion.
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Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder, 'Why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand.
Edited by Mr Person (02/10/12 01:05 AM)
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dkmonk
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Re: Science being a religion to people. [Re: Mr Person]
#15786869 - 02/10/12 01:10 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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The pressures of scientists to hold common beliefs instead of trying a new approach due to being scorned and viewed as an outcast of their scientific community has probably hindered a lot of discoveries.
The people don't want to present a new idea, because even if it has good credit to it and it is slightly off they are forever viewed as a bad scientist just because their idea was right in all parts, but one, so it was never given a chance past a first look.
Funding is also is hard to get if you don't hold traditional beliefs, so the proper expenses aren't allotted to help or produce that many theories that may disprove an old one or modify it.
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B0b0
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Re: Science being a religion to people. [Re: dkmonk]
#15786953 - 02/10/12 01:38 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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Science can't be a religion, the person putting their trust into science isn't going off blind faith. It's merely the best system of discovery humans have to explore the world around us without letting our weak minds distort the information. No blind claims of what is unknown.
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dkmonk
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Re: Science being a religion to people. [Re: B0b0]
#15787009 - 02/10/12 02:00 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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I wasn't saying it is, but more that people put so much emphasis on it sometimes that their view of science is like radical religious people about their religion.
Some treat it as the only truth, and deny possibilities since it can't be shown or hasn't yet in science. When science experiments are only as good as the people that do them, and can be wrong, but still held right for a long period of time without out anyone challenging the theory.
I agree with having trust in science, but not putting all your trust in it as the end all to questions or ideas.
If something is unknown, but wants to be, don't we need to have some blind ideas to form what we think is going to happen. You are only given what you already know, and fill in the spots most logically to begin to see if your ideas are true.
A science with out imagination would have got us nowhere. A lot of good discovers are made in a time of peace that is open to imagination, and encourages ideas that have no scientific backing.
I feel we are discouraged by society to have these ideas and talk about them. It earns us labels that connote negativity to discredit the person. Pseudoscience or conspiracy theorist, just because their view are not in line with common ideas. (I agree a lot of conspiracy theorists have idea I don't think has much merit, but there are some that are labeled as that who do have genuine ideas that should be labeled in a negative way)
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
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Re: Science being a religion to people. [Re: dkmonk]
#15787220 - 02/10/12 03:39 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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You certainly win the award for 'Nonsense Thread of the Year Award'. 
Quote:
If it were't for someone having contridicting ideas about something that science believes to be true then we would not have many of the discoveries we have today.
Science is a methodology and holds no beliefs. 
How were these new discoveries CONFIRMED? That's right, folks! Using science.
And in your sig you parade your Mushrooom Grow Log. Hmmm, let us ponder where this METHODOLOGY on inoculation and sterilization came from? Any guesses? Begins with an S. Does this make you the Radical of Religion you mislabel and then despise?
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I believe science discoveries to be true, but don't view them as absolute truth
Is there a point to a single part of your rant? Scientific 'truths' are hardly viewed as absolutes by educated people. This is quite basic else theories would never be amendable.
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the possibilities that there can be a possible different scenario
Just a heads up: not everyone here speaks gibberish.
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I think with anything a medium is needed...
More meaningless stuff and incorrectly phrased to boot. What is the medium to 'gravity is the attractive force between objects with mass and is proportional to distance'?
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so we aren't ignorant to other possibilities
Ignorance pertains to knowledge, not possibilities. Anything else you care to get wrong?
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: Science being a religion to people. [Re: Mr Person]
#15787231 - 02/10/12 03:43 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
To hold a hard line on scientific materialism is no more rational than fundamentalist religion.
A strawman and a flat and erroneous statement with zero support.
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dkmonk
Psychonaut Lover
Registered: 10/24/11
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You certainly win the award for 'Nonsense Thread of the Year Award'.
Quote:
If it were't for someone having contridicting ideas about something that science believes to be true then we would not have many of the discoveries we have today.
Science is a methodology and holds no beliefs.
You are splitting hairs here. Science does hold statements that they view to be true, so that scientists can use them to formulate other hypothesis
How were these new discoveries CONFIRMED? That's right, folks! Using science.
And in your sig you parade your Mushrooom Grow Log. Hmmm, let us ponder where this METHODOLOGY on inoculation and sterilization came from? Any guesses? Begins with an S. Does this make you the Radical of Religion you mislabel and then despise?
If you are able to comprehend the entirety of what I was writing is that a lot of people are holding as an absolute and not as what is believed to be true based repeated tests. I wasn't saying science is a religion, and was arguing that it isn't, and that is why people sometimes get too carried away and began to exemplify the characteristics of an overly religious individual.
Again you are being very literal and not using very good reasoning to try to attack my view, but that is fine and acceptable.
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I believe science discoveries to be true, but don't view them as absolute truth
Is there a point to a single part of your rant? Scientific 'truths' are hardly viewed as absolutes by educated people. This is quite basic else theories would never be amendable.
My point being again that I have witnessed a lot of people who start blurring the lines and making discoveries out to be concrete proof that can't ever be disproven
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the possibilities that there can be a possible different scenario
Just a heads up: not everyone here speaks gibberish.
Yes, that is very vague and I agree. I was trying to say that individuals who I witness acting in a manner that I am trying convey in this topic choose to see only one possibility and that is what science has showed that is the most likely do to tests, and shut off their mind to anything but that.
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I think with anything a medium is needed...
More meaningless stuff and incorrectly phrased to boot. What is the medium to 'gravity is the attractive force between objects with mass and is proportional to distance'?
I was typing fast, and apologize for using a wrong word that is similar in structure to the word I meant to use which is median, but seeing as how everything else you take very literal to counter my ideas this is no surprise you didn't you context clues and logic to figure it out.
It is best to have a balanced view on the subject that understands what has been proven, and uses it as what is best known for that time, but doesn't exclude that this idea isn't complete, and can be added on to, or to not rule out something completely different to the idea, by applying other theories to it and try to see if it can dispell the current held idea.
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so we aren't ignorant to other possibilities
Ignorance pertains to knowledge, not possibilities. Anything else you care to get wrong?
I was saying that it is good to keep an open view so that your mind doesn't shut other views out, and by doing that it would become less aware of another theory than the current held one. If you can't see how that might pertain to knowledge then I don't know what to say
I do apologize for not being the best written opinion on how I see people becoming very close minded when supporting an open minded subject, because they believe what has been shown to work is definitive and complete.
I don't say all people do this, or the majority, but I frequently see it happening.
Like I said before I enjoy reading science articles about the ideas they have tested and got positive results back showing this is how whatever the subject may be most likely works.
Science allows me to get a better understanding for what is around me.
You seem to be misunderstanding me as saying science has no purpose, or I view it as not helping us, or that it is filled with pitfalls, and should be taken with a grain of salt. Which isn't at all what I was saying in my original post.
I take the blame for not writing it more thoroughly, so it was very blatant to what I was trying to express, so hopefully you now understand the purpose of the post.
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First Grow Golden Teacher Koh Samui - in progress
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Icelander
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Re: Science being a religion to people. [Re: dkmonk]
#15787376 - 02/10/12 05:21 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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I think a lot of people are so wrapped up in it being the all knowing truth that is concrete so much that they are blinded by it and not able to imagine something that hasn't been proven or measured, so its existence must be impossible.
I can't think of one person here who thinks this way.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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dkmonk
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Re: Science being a religion to people. [Re: Icelander]
#15787392 - 02/10/12 05:36 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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I have met a few people who will not even acknowledge an idea unless it has scientific back up, and if it doesn't then they don't even listen.
I might of been a little dramatic in explaining the people, but that is how they come off when I have heard them speak or had a conversation. I was speaking out of emotion on how their inability to even hear a different scenerio made gave me that impression.
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Icelander
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Re: Science being a religion to people. [Re: dkmonk]
#15787518 - 02/10/12 06:41 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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I have met a few people who will not even acknowledge an idea unless it has scientific back up, and if it doesn't then they don't even listen.
In my experience this is due to the fact that that "idea" has been debunked by them dozens of times or more and they are just fed up hearing the same old flawed rational defending it. After years here I'm certainly tired of hearing certain urban legends repeated by every new crop of wannabes.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Yohlugax
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Re: Science being a religion to people. [Re: dkmonk]
#15788296 - 02/10/12 10:55 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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The people you are talking about where/whoever they are clearly do not understand what science attempts to do and are just probably too lazy or even unable to reason for themselves so they will believe anything they are handed. It just so happens at this time that they are more often than not being handed scientific discoveries by the media and whoever else.
Science(and any scientist should necessarily agree with this) is anti-dogmatic in the strictest sense.
If this truly interests you I suggest reading some of Karl Popper's work, specifically Conjectures and Refutations.
Good evening.
Edited by Yohlugax (02/10/12 11:05 AM)
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Science being a religion to people. [Re: Icelander] 1
#15788325 - 02/10/12 11:51 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
After years here I'm certainly tired of hearing certain urban legends repeated by every new crop of wannabes.
Probably because you are only using 10% of your brain. 
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Mr Person
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Registered: 02/02/12
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
To hold a hard line on scientific materialism is no more rational than fundamentalist religion.
A strawman and a flat and erroneous statement with zero support.
Exactly what is the straw man in my argument? You can attack my argument but it doesn't make my conclusion untrue. That is the Fallacy Fallacy. You conspicuously neglect to explain how holding beliefs that are not yet proven by science is rational.
That fact is scientific materialists are starting with unwarranted assumptions as premises and therefore no matter how good your logic is and how much evidence you have your conclusions cannot be truly validated. For example, in the short time I've been a member here I've seen you post numerous threads that seem to be working from the premise that we humans of 2012 have gotten to the point where we understand things mostly. There are a couple of pesky details to iron out still, but the evidence points to a fully materialistic universe. This is an unprovable assumption since we have no idea how much there is left that we don't know. There are anomalies everywhere you look, and no branch of science is anywhere close to "complete" as far as we can tell.
People throughout history have always believed they were right on the cusp of having the universe all figured out. When you take present day scientific assumptions and project them out into the future without accounting for all the unknown unknowns that we haven't discovered yet you are following in this noble tradition of rationalization passed down through the ages. Just as many previously orthodox scientific beliefs are laughable to us today, I don't think your assumptions will necessarily remain legitimate as we discover more about the universe through science.
In fact I think that the more a person learns about the universe the less likely scientific materialism seems. There is a reason so many working scientists identify as religious or at the least spiritually open . The universe is more awe inspiring and complex than your reductionist ideas give it credit for, and to claim that it is entirely materialistic with certainty is to ignore a mountain of evidence to the contrary which is inherently irrational.
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Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder, 'Why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand.
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DieCommie
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Re: Science being a religion to people. [Re: Mr Person]
#15789158 - 02/10/12 03:28 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
That fact is scientific materialists are starting with unwarranted assumptions as premises
Like what?
Premises, or postulates, in science are not warranted by definition. They are assumed. That is how postulates work. Nobody really claims otherwise.
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 millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
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Re: Science being a religion to people. [Re: Mr Person]
#15789274 - 02/10/12 03:49 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mr Person said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
To hold a hard line on scientific materialism is no more rational than fundamentalist religion.
A strawman and a flat and erroneous statement with zero support.
Exactly what is the straw man in my argument? You can attack my argument but it doesn't make my conclusion untrue. That is the Fallacy Fallacy. You conspicuously neglect to explain how holding beliefs that are not yet proven by science is rational.
That fact is scientific materialists are starting with unwarranted assumptions as premises and therefore no matter how good your logic is and how much evidence you have your conclusions cannot be truly validated. For example, in the short time I've been a member here I've seen you post numerous threads that seem to be working from the premise that we humans of 2012 have gotten to the point where we understand things mostly. There are a couple of pesky details to iron out still, but the evidence points to a fully materialistic universe. This is an unprovable assumption since we have no idea how much there is left that we don't know. There are anomalies everywhere you look, and no branch of science is anywhere close to "complete" as far as we can tell.
People throughout history have always believed they were right on the cusp of having the universe all figured out. When you take present day scientific assumptions and project them out into the future without accounting for all the unknown unknowns that we haven't discovered yet you are following in this noble tradition of rationalization passed down through the ages. Just as many previously orthodox scientific beliefs are laughable to us today, I don't think your assumptions will necessarily remain legitimate as we discover more about the universe through science.
In fact I think that the more a person learns about the universe the less likely scientific materialism seems. There is a reason so many working scientists identify as religious or at the least spiritually open . The universe is more awe inspiring and complex than your reductionist ideas give it credit for, and to claim that it is entirely materialistic with certainty is to ignore a mountain of evidence to the contrary which is inherently irrational.
this.
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It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.- Philip K. Dick
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teknix
ÐøøÐ
Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 4,734
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Re: Science being a religion to people. [Re: Mr Person]
#15789285 - 02/10/12 03:53 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mr Person said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
To hold a hard line on scientific materialism is no more rational than fundamentalist religion.
A strawman and a flat and erroneous statement with zero support.
Exactly what is the straw man in my argument? You can attack my argument but it doesn't make my conclusion untrue. That is the Fallacy Fallacy. You conspicuously neglect to explain how holding beliefs that are not yet proven by science is rational.
That fact is scientific materialists are starting with unwarranted assumptions as premises and therefore no matter how good your logic is and how much evidence you have your conclusions cannot be truly validated. For example, in the short time I've been a member here I've seen you post numerous threads that seem to be working from the premise that we humans of 2012 have gotten to the point where we understand things mostly. There are a couple of pesky details to iron out still, but the evidence points to a fully materialistic universe. This is an unprovable assumption since we have no idea how much there is left that we don't know. There are anomalies everywhere you look, and no branch of science is anywhere close to "complete" as far as we can tell.
People throughout history have always believed they were right on the cusp of having the universe all figured out. When you take present day scientific assumptions and project them out into the future without accounting for all the unknown unknowns that we haven't discovered yet you are following in this noble tradition of rationalization passed down through the ages. Just as many previously orthodox scientific beliefs are laughable to us today, I don't think your assumptions will necessarily remain legitimate as we discover more about the universe through science.
In fact I think that the more a person learns about the universe the less likely scientific materialism seems. There is a reason so many working scientists identify as religious or at the least spiritually open . The universe is more awe inspiring and complex than your reductionist ideas give it credit for, and to claim that it is entirely materialistic with certainty is to ignore a mountain of evidence to the contrary which is inherently irrational.
Yeah, you're pointing at psuedo-scientists. lol.
+5
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millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
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Re: Science being a religion to people. [Re: teknix]
#15789320 - 02/10/12 04:00 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
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correct me if i'm wrong mr. person, but i think he's saying that the notion that science has everything figured out is psuedo science in itself.
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It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.- Philip K. Dick
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teknix
ÐøøÐ
Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 4,734
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Re: Science being a religion to people. [Re: dkmonk]
#15789410 - 02/10/12 04:20 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
dkmonk said:
Let me say first that I enjoy science and its discoveries and like to have facts. It is very valuable and important to satisfying our curiosity as humans. I do wish more of its discoveries were predominantly used for pure good, then greed and power, but that is life.
I think a lot of people are so wrapped up in it being the all knowing truth that is concrete so much that they are blinded by it and not able to imagine something that hasn't been proven or measured, so its existence must be impossible.
It is if they are the Radical's of religion, but complete opposite and radical to science when it is subject to change at any time.
If it were't for someone having contridicting ideas about something that science believes to be true then we would not have many of the discoveries we have today.
I think just because you hear there was a new discovery or something has been tested a few hundred times doesn't make it true, maybe the tests aren't being performed in the a manner where they will only get that answer, or doesn't show some additional information to the answer that keeps occurring.
It would be easy for someone to put on a lab coat with a degree, and gather these hardened science believers in a room and lie out there teeth and provide a bunch of data to their claims, and because he spent half his life in school, works in a lab, and has a certain job title makes his statement infallible to them.
I believe science discoveries to be true, but don't view them as absolute truth, and still use my mind to not block out the possibilities that there can be a possible different scenario or that the information can be expounded on and what has been discovered is just the tip of what there is to learn about that theory.
I think with anything a medium is needed, so we aren't ignorant to other possibilities limiting our self which is counterproductive to the field.
+5 to you too.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,297
Loc: Americas
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Re: Science being a religion to people. [Re: dkmonk]
#15789630 - 02/10/12 05:20 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
dkmonk said:
.
If it were't for someone having contridicting ideas about something that science believes to be true then we would not have many of the discoveries we have today.
Such as what? This doesn't seem obvious to me, though I hear religious appologists and mystics claiming this all the time.
Quote:
It would be easy for someone to put on a lab coat with a degree, and gather these hardened science believers in a room and lie out there teeth and provide a bunch of data to their claims, and because he spent half his life in school, works in a lab, and has a certain job title makes his statement infallible to them.
So what? What does that have to do with science?
Quote:
I believe science discoveries to be true, but don't view them as absolute truth, and still use my mind to not block out the possibilities that there can be a possible different scenario or that the information can be expounded on and what has been discovered is just the tip of what there is to learn about that theory.
People claiming these sorts of things seem to make up quite a bit of error that i don't think exists in the history of science. Like my challenge to your earlier claim, I don't think there's much that shows previous positive scientific theories to be wrong. This is one of the strengths of science- what you know can be presumed correct with a high degree of confidence. Most of the denigrating or limiting claims I see about science (again, often from the religious folks or the hippies) seems to be made by folks who don't know what science is or are simply wrong. These folks often read media reports and draw conclusions from what is quite often crappy reporting.
Quote:
dkmonk said:
The pressures of scientists to hold common beliefs instead of trying a new approach due to being scorned and viewed as an outcast of their scientific community has probably hindered a lot of discoveries.
How do you back this up?
Quote:
Funding is also is hard to get if you don't hold traditional beliefs, so the proper expenses aren't allotted to help or produce that many theories that may disprove an old one or modify it.
So what? This is a good thing, I would think. It would seem more fruitful to examine the unknown than to test what we allready have proven or demonstrated for the tenth time.
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