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 OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor
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 Unfair comparison
#15785885 - 02/09/12 08:21 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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Let's list the number of skeptics who died at their own hand in a cult vs. believers who died at their own hand in a cult.
Remember, its all about the love. 
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This is your drain on brugs.
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 andrewss
precariously aggrandized
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,672
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 21 hours, 22 minutes
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Jesus loves you.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor
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 Re: Unfair comparison [Re: andrewss]
#15786382 - 02/09/12 10:34 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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This is your drain on brugs.
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dkmonk
Psychonaut Lover
Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 321
Loc: Indiana
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
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I feel sorry for children born into religion that only pray when the child gets sick, and refuses any other treatments.
I think a skeptical of natural medicines, alternative medicine, and preventive medicine are hurt worse or can be helped more if they tried other techniques. Ayaveda I think is a medicine practice that can be really helpful in addition with common medical practices, and by itself.
I feel like skeptics of alternative cancer treatments are killed by the ones deemed acceptable. Or a person who is depressed and is skeptical that anything else besides medicine will help, and then their medicine makes them more suicidal so they kill themselves.
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First Grow Golden Teacher Koh Samui - in progress
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15330714
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 1,389
Last seen: 18 hours, 13 minutes
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Re: Unfair comparison [Re: dkmonk]
#15787175 - 02/10/12 03:23 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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then their medicine makes them more suicidal so they kill themselves.
anti-psychotics and ant-depressants don't make people suicidal. the reason some people kill themselves shortly after receiving treatment is because these medications make them more lucid and capable of acting on their plans. most people who are severely depressed or psychotic can't think straight long enough to commit suicide. unfortunately the medications which over time can give them a chance at beating their disease also increases their resourcefulness resulting in increased suicide rates for new users of anti-psychotics and ant-depressants.
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"The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic ideas (the characterological lie about reality) and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels lost. And this is the simple truth - that to live is to feel lost - he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked." - Ernest Becker
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dkmonk
Psychonaut Lover
Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 321
Loc: Indiana
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
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You are right they don't make them suicidal, because I am sure those thoughts are already present. What I have read is that it makes these thoughts more prevalent in some people, allowing them to contemplate the action more while at the same time decreasing their fear to actually go through with it.
It always says on the warning that increased suicidal thoughts is a risk.
I agree that you have to already have had these thoughts for them to be more prevalent when taking the medication.
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First Grow Golden Teacher Koh Samui - in progress
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15330714
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor
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Re: Unfair comparison [Re: dkmonk] 1
#15787239 - 02/10/12 03:46 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
I agree that you have to already have had these thoughts for them to be more prevalent when taking the medication.
Agreement is an opinion and here we are discussing medicine, not what flavor of ice cream you prefer. If you are not going to provide a source for your statement, please scan in a copy of your medical degree.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,604
Loc: underbelly
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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dkmonk
Psychonaut Lover
Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 321
Loc: Indiana
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
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Re: Unfair comparison [Re: Icelander]
#15787319 - 02/10/12 04:34 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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Severe allergic reactions (rash; hives; itching; difficulty breathing; tightness in the chest; swelling of the mouth, face, lips, or tongue); bizarre behavior; black or bloody stools; chest pain; confusion; decreased concentration; decreased coordination; "exaggerated reflexes; fainting; fast or irregular heartbeat; fever, chills, or sore throat; hallucinations; memory loss; new or worsening mental or mood changes (eg, agitation, panic attacks, aggressiveness, impulsiveness, irritability, hostility, exaggerated feeling of well-being, restlessness, or inability to sit still); persistent or severe ringing in the ears; persistent, painful erection; red, swollen, blistered, or peeling skin; seizures; severe or persistent anxiety or trouble sleeping; severe or persistent headache or dizziness; significant weight loss; stomach pain; suicidal thoughts or attempts; tremor; unusual bone pain or unexplained swelling, tenderness, or bruising; unusual bruising or bleeding; ; unusual weakness; vision changes; worsening of depression."
Found on drugs.com
Increase in Suicidal Thinking or Behavior
The FDA said Friday's warning was in response to recent studies that point to the possibility of an increased risk of suicidal behavior in adults taking antidepressants. The agency said it was in the process of reviewing data from drug manufacturers to determine the extent and seriousness of the risk, a review it said could take more than a year.
In the meantime, the agency recommended the following:
Adults being treated with antidepressant medicines, particularly those being treated for depression, should be watched closely for worsening of depression and for increased suicidal thinking or behavior.
Close observation of adults may be especially important when antidepressant medications are started for the first time or when doses for the specific drugs prescribed have been changed.
Adults whose symptoms worsen while being treated with antidepressants, including an increase in suicidal thinking or behavior, should be evaluated by their healthcare professional.
In its statement Friday, the FDA did not cite the published studies that the agency said prompted the renewed warning about antidepressant use among adults. http://health.dailynewscentral.com/content/view/1199/0
Here you go. I think this makes my statement about people's suicidal tendencies increase allowing them to take action and follow through with this thoughts.
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First Grow Golden Teacher Koh Samui - in progress
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15330714
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,604
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Unfair comparison [Re: dkmonk]
#15787374 - 02/10/12 05:19 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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Now you're debating dude.
Don't see much of that around here anymore.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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dkmonk
Psychonaut Lover
Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 321
Loc: Indiana
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
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Re: Unfair comparison [Re: Icelander]
#15787429 - 02/10/12 05:59 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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To be fair I found this article that reports that the rates increased after stopping the use of the pills, and even though it goes against my argument and what I think due to having been on them when I was younger it is fair to show other data.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14210126&ps=rs
I hypothesize that since they were taken off, and getting off of anti depressants is very tricky due to brain chemistry, that the switch from not taking them was causing the brain to with drawl and effecting their mood even worse than either being on or off of them. It is a very monitored process usually by a psychologist to monitor the effects of lowering the dose, so they don't experience severe with drawl withdraw symptoms.
S
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First Grow Golden Teacher Koh Samui - in progress
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15330714
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 23,674
Loc: Red Panda Village
Last seen: 3 hours, 25 minutes
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Re: Unfair comparison [Re: dkmonk]
#15787501 - 02/10/12 06:31 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
dkmonk said:
You are right they don't make them suicidal, because I am sure those thoughts are already present. What I have read is that it makes these thoughts more prevalent in some people, allowing them to contemplate the action more while at the same time decreasing their fear to actually go through with it.
It always says on the warning that increased suicidal thoughts is a risk.
I agree that you have to already have had these thoughts for them to be more prevalent when taking the medication.
This is why it's important for taking such meditation to be accompanied by psychotherapy... Psychiatric medicine can be useful, either in situations where there's actually physical abnormalities with the brain and it's necessary to alter brain chemistry, or in situations where taking medication can help make extreme symptoms more managable, in the context that it's a short-term solution that's accompanied with actual psychotherapy. As you've acknowledged here, it's primarily a matter of thought patterns, cognition. It's really a shame that most psychiatrists aren't also psychologists (of the cognitive science variety, of course  )...
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 1,389
Last seen: 18 hours, 13 minutes
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strong friend and family bonds are also very important.
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"The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic ideas (the characterological lie about reality) and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels lost. And this is the simple truth - that to live is to feel lost - he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked." - Ernest Becker
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reeferaddict69
Benadryl Shaman
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 10,145
Loc: Straight Outta Compton 
Last seen: 15 minutes, 47 seconds
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Quote:
blingbling said:
then their medicine makes them more suicidal so they kill themselves.
anti-psychotics and ant-depressants don't make people suicidal. the reason some people kill themselves shortly after receiving treatment is because these medications make them more lucid and capable of acting on their plans. most people who are severely depressed or psychotic can't think straight long enough to commit suicide. unfortunately the medications which over time can give them a chance at beating their disease also increases their resourcefulness resulting in increased suicide rates for new users of anti-psychotics and ant-depressants.
Yes, actually they do. I'm on Zyprexa and it has turned me into a zombie with zero libido. Anti-psychotics and anti-depressants could easily turn someone suicidal. Anti-psychotics don't make you lucid at all. They turn you into a lethargic zombie.
/endrant
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 1,389
Last seen: 18 hours, 13 minutes
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i have spoken to a few psychologists and psychiatrists about this subject and that is what they told me. they could be wrong but i will take their word over yours  also you may be an outlying statistic, so to speak, and not representative of most users of anti-psychotics and anti-depressants.
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"The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic ideas (the characterological lie about reality) and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels lost. And this is the simple truth - that to live is to feel lost - he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked." - Ernest Becker
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crkhd
☾☼☽
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 1,255
Loc: A human sphere enfolding ...
Last seen: 1 hour, 37 minutes
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Hint: psychologists and psychiatrists don't actually take the medications they dish out 99% of the time.
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SHABOOM
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 23,674
Loc: Red Panda Village
Last seen: 3 hours, 25 minutes
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Re: Unfair comparison [Re: crkhd]
#15797014 - 02/12/12 10:00 AM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Hint: Psychologists don't "dish out" medications in the first place.
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor
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Double hint: taking medication 99% of the time = 
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This is your drain on brugs.
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reeferaddict69
Benadryl Shaman
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 10,145
Loc: Straight Outta Compton
Last seen: 15 minutes, 47 seconds
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Hint: Psychologists don't "dish out" medications in the first place.
Psychiatrists do
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 23,674
Loc: Red Panda Village
Last seen: 3 hours, 25 minutes
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That was implicitly acknowledged from the moment at which I selectively quoted "psychologist", to the exclusion of "psychiatrist", from his statement. 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
 
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 days, 3 hours
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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reeferaddict69
Benadryl Shaman
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 10,145
Loc: Straight Outta Compton
Last seen: 15 minutes, 47 seconds
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
That was implicitly acknowledged from the moment at which I selectively quoted "psychologist", to the exclusion of "psychiatrist", from his statement.
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