Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!
|
 r72rock
Learning to Grow
Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 577
Loc: Chicago 
Last seen: 3 months, 12 days
|
 Clinging to Birth and Death
#15785297 - 02/09/12 06:08 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
|
|
I noticed that I not only cling to one, but that I cling to the other as well.
Sometimes I'll be afraid to die, and say to my self, "No no no, I want to live." These are at times when I get into a car, or I'm about to fall asleep and realize that my heart might give out during the night. Basically, at times when I acknowledge my mortality.
Other times, I'll be sitting by myself, or be in a terrible situation, and think, "Man. I wish I was dead. I wouldn't have to worry about anything, I wouldn't have to put up with anything, I wouldn't have to think about anything. I just wouldn't be. That would be awesome. No one can suffer anymore!"
I always feel that this is because of a question that runs deeper than my anxieties. This question I feel is the most fundamental one that could be asked, and it's, "Why is there something, rather than nothing?"
It seems that it would have just been easier if nothing stayed as nothing, rather than nothing making something. But then again, nothing only is because something is.
I'm completely lost on the subject if you couldn't tell, which is why I'm asking you guys.
Also, I realize that I'm giving "nothing" an object of "something." "Nothing" by my definition is this vague infinite space, or a 0 as defined by mathematics. But really, when I talk about nothing, I'm talking about "No-thing."
Tricky subject.  Any thoughts?
--------------------
现在
Refraining from all evil, not clinging to birth and death, working in deep compassion for all sentient beings, respecting those over you and pitying those below you, without any detesting or desiring, worrying or lamentation - this is what is called Buddha. Do not search beyond it. - Dōgen
|
Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,340
Last seen: 19 hours, 47 minutes
|
Re: Clinging to Birth and Death [Re: r72rock]
#15785733 - 02/09/12 07:46 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
|
|
Revise your definition of emptiness.
Troublesome territory to see emptiness as separate from what is.
|
White Beard
Venerable White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 2,318
Loc: In the forest somewhere.
Last seen: 1 hour, 18 minutes
|
Re: Clinging to Birth and Death [Re: r72rock]
#15785741 - 02/09/12 07:47 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
|
|
Good contemplations. Yes, clinging for non-existence leads to suffering just as clinging to existence and both lead to suffering as the Buddha talked about.
Why is there something? Who knows? I like the quote
“You see things; and you say ‘Why?’ But I dream things that never were; and I say ‘Why not?’”
-George Bernard Shaw
Like, hey why not something? You know? It's cooler then nothing.
What I do when these clingings come up is just watch them. Or when fears come up, just watch them. What is fear anyway? Who is clinging to existence or non-existence anyway? It seems like it is the mind. I find when these fears and anxieties come up is a very special time to discover special things. I often get the mind saying: "You're going to die right now!" I just watch the fears arise, and then dissipate.
It sounds like you're doing good though.
|
crkhd
☾☼☽
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 1,255
Loc: A human sphere enfolding ...
Last seen: 1 hour, 36 minutes
|
Re: Clinging to Birth and Death [Re: r72rock]
#15785770 - 02/09/12 07:54 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
|
|
The conundrum arises from considering "nothing" as the opposite of "something". It isn't. As a human being, your being "nothing" and "something" are opposites, we can vouch for that. Before, "nothing", now "something".
Yet, existence itself (i.e. "something") is absolute and once you get your head around it being the absolute/prevailing over all other possibilities this conundrum ceases to incite fear in your heart. It is absolute in that it contains all birth/death, all beginnings/ends, all "is-ness" and "is-notness" so it is subject to none of these things itself.
You can't apply notions of time and hence birth/death to existence. Because time itself is an aspect of existence - without time, existence still is, without existence? No time! And having come from nothingness you might lead yourself to think that nothingness is more absolute than existence. But it's not as if nothing alone did nothing and suddenly, you. Reality itself is that which birthed you - a sperm joined an egg, and here you are. I suppose if you were trying to pin down a cause for you, then we can only say that "existence exists, nothingness nothings, therefore me". Hence: "emptiness is form, form is emptiness".
Your existence in some sense was inevitable - from the big bang till now, all those events perfectly lined up and had to to put you here. And also something did not come from nothing. The big bang only marks the beginning of time, it doesn't mean energy itself had a beginning and nor does it - nor will it or can it have an end. To me, "energy" and "existence" are synonyms, referring to the absolute, God.
--------------------
SHABOOM
Edited by crkhd (02/09/12 08:00 PM)
|
White Beard
Venerable White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 2,318
Loc: In the forest somewhere.
Last seen: 1 hour, 18 minutes
|
Re: Clinging to Birth and Death [Re: crkhd]
#15785795 - 02/09/12 07:59 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
|
|
|
Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,340
Last seen: 19 hours, 47 minutes
|
Re: Clinging to Birth and Death [Re: White Beard]
#15785831 - 02/09/12 08:07 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
crkhd said:
The conundrum arises from considering "nothing" as the opposite of "something". It isn't. As a human being, your being "nothing" and "something" are opposites, we can vouch for that. Before, "nothing", now "something".
Yet, existence itself (i.e. "something") is absolute and once you get your head around it being the absolute/prevailing over all other possibilities this conundrum ceases to incite fear in your heart. It is absolute in that it contains all birth/death, all beginnings/ends, all "is-ness" and "is-notness" so it is subject to none of these things itself.
You can't apply notions of time and hence birth/death to existence. Because time itself is an aspect of existence - without time, existence still is, without existence? No time! And having come from nothingness you might lead yourself to think that nothingness is more absolute than existence. But it's not as if nothing alone did nothing and suddenly, you. Reality itself is that which birthed you - a sperm joined an egg, and here you are. I suppose if you were trying to pin down a cause for you, then we can only say that "existence exists, nothingness nothings, therefore me". Hence: "emptiness is form, form is emptiness".
Your existence in some sense was inevitable - from the big bang till now, all those events perfectly lined up and had to to put you here. And also something did not come from nothing. The big bang only marks the beginning of time, it doesn't mean energy itself had a beginning and nor does it - nor will it or can it have an end. To me, "energy" and "existence" are synonyms, referring to the absolute, God.
I doubt it.
|
timelapses
Registered: 01/26/11
Posts: 1,310
Last seen: 9 days, 13 hours
|
Re: Clinging to Birth and Death [Re: Kickle]
#15785854 - 02/09/12 08:14 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
|
|
Just let it flow, we are all on this ride together. Fighting it is miserable.
--------------------
 
|
r72rock
Learning to Grow
Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 577
Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 3 months, 12 days
|
Re: Clinging to Birth and Death [Re: crkhd]
#15786242 - 02/09/12 10:02 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kickle said:
Revise your definition of emptiness.
Troublesome territory to see emptiness as separate from what is.
Hmmm... should I throw out a definition and use that as my definition? I guess I have a hard time seeing what emptiness is. (Or isn't)
Would you mind elaborating a little bit more?
Quote:
White Beard said:
What I do when these clingings come up is just watch them. Or when fears come up, just watch them. What is fear anyway? Who is clinging to existence or non-existence anyway? It seems like it is the mind. I find when these fears and anxieties come up is a very special time to discover special things. I often get the mind saying: "You're going to die right now!" I just watch the fears arise, and then dissipate.
It sounds like you're doing good though.
Thanks, I struggle. 
I'm going to take your advice and use it as an opportunity to grow, rather than letting my anxieties or worries control me. Rather than clinging to one or the other, I could see them all as passing things. I still can't help but think over and over on the subject of emptiness.
Quote:
crkhd said:
You can't apply notions of time and hence birth/death to existence. Because time itself is an aspect of existence - without time, existence still is, without existence? No time! And having come from nothingness you might lead yourself to think that nothingness is more absolute than existence. But it's not as if nothing alone did nothing and suddenly, you. Reality itself is that which birthed you - a sperm joined an egg, and here you are. I suppose if you were trying to pin down a cause for you, then we can only say that "existence exists, nothingness nothings, therefore me". Hence: "emptiness is form, form is emptiness".
That was very clear.  I liked that a lot. Something I'm going to have to ponder for a while in order for me to wrap my head around.
I always think that emptiness and nothing would be the best. How great would it be if there wasn't anybody or anything to experience suffering?
--------------------
现在
Refraining from all evil, not clinging to birth and death, working in deep compassion for all sentient beings, respecting those over you and pitying those below you, without any detesting or desiring, worrying or lamentation - this is what is called Buddha. Do not search beyond it. - Dōgen
|
Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,340
Last seen: 19 hours, 47 minutes
|
Re: Clinging to Birth and Death [Re: r72rock]
#15786558 - 02/09/12 11:27 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
r72rock said:
Quote:
Kickle said:
Revise your definition of emptiness.
Troublesome territory to see emptiness as separate from what is.
Hmmm... should I throw out a definition and use that as my definition? I guess I have a hard time seeing what emptiness is. (Or isn't)
Would you mind elaborating a little bit more?
"Emptiness is form and form is emptiness. Emptiness is not other than form, and form is not other than emptiness."
Realizing emptiness is invaluable. The way to realizing emptiness is through right action. Right actions are the product of a good heart. Do not take my word for it. Look and see if that is true -- when you act on your heart do you feel emptier or fuller? Lighter or heavier? Emptiness in my experience is right here, right now.
|
dkmonk
Psychonaut Lover
Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 321
Loc: Indiana
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
|
Re: Clinging to Birth and Death [Re: Kickle]
#15787110 - 02/10/12 02:45 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
|
|
I seems like death would solve something in traumatic situations when your are so overwhelmed you want an escape, because your mind isn't thinking rationally and is in panic mode about how to get back to the calm serene mind, and doesn't think that it will do you nothing, but end your time early that you are given to live on Earth and be a part of this amazing existence that you may not ever get to have again depending on the unknown of death. So, why risk short changing yourself of experiencing human life until you die by something other than your own hand. To me it is like going to watch a show that is one of a kind and you are invited to watch, and skipping to the credits. You didn't get much value from only seeing a fraction of the film and now it is over and there isn't going back.
Feelings come and go so fast you can't keep count, but dieing only happens once to our knowledge and is finite.
--------------------
First Grow Golden Teacher Koh Samui - in progress
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15330714
|
LipovBog
sā tv asmin parama-prema-rūpā
Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 58
Last seen: 4 days, 21 minutes
|
Re: Clinging to Birth and Death [Re: dkmonk]
#15787468 - 02/10/12 06:15 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
|
|
Is there anybody here that read's Srila Prabhupada's books ?
Srila Prabhupada is a person who brought vaishavism(most people just call is the hare krishna) to the US in the 60's. In his books he colected the most important knowledge from all the Vedic literature, which is very extensive. There you will find answers to all of your questions regarding spirituality and stuff.
The problem is humans tend to speculate all the time and don't have a strong support from knowledge. The first thing a human should do is gain authentic knowledge about himself, God and the creation that surrounds all of us living beings.
|
White Beard
Venerable White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 2,318
Loc: In the forest somewhere.
Last seen: 1 hour, 18 minutes
|
Re: Clinging to Birth and Death [Re: r72rock]
#15787565 - 02/10/12 07:03 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
r72rock said:
Quote:
White Beard said:
What I do when these clingings come up is just watch them. Or when fears come up, just watch them. What is fear anyway? Who is clinging to existence or non-existence anyway? It seems like it is the mind. I find when these fears and anxieties come up is a very special time to discover special things. I often get the mind saying: "You're going to die right now!" I just watch the fears arise, and then dissipate.
It sounds like you're doing good though.
Thanks, I struggle.
I'm going to take your advice and use it as an opportunity to grow, rather than letting my anxieties or worries control me. Rather than clinging to one or the other, I could see them all as passing things. I still can't help but think over and over on the subject of emptiness.
Just observer your thoughts. I find this works for me. The more you observe and not get involved, they seem to lose their power to control. Even if thoughts come up that you think you really have to figure out, just let them go about. Be confused for a while. What does the experience of being confused feel like? Why is it necessary to end confusion? Just watch this all and I think you'll do great.
|
 The Chronic
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,041
|
Re: Clinging to Birth and Death [Re: r72rock]
#15788287 - 02/10/12 10:44 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
r72rock said:
I noticed that I not only cling to one, but that I cling to the other as well.
Sometimes I'll be afraid to die, and say to my self, "No no no, I want to live." These are at times when I get into a car, or I'm about to fall asleep and realize that my heart might give out during the night. Basically, at times when I acknowledge my mortality.
Other times, I'll be sitting by myself, or be in a terrible situation, and think, "Man. I wish I was dead. I wouldn't have to worry about anything, I wouldn't have to put up with anything, I wouldn't have to think about anything. I just wouldn't be. That would be awesome. No one can suffer anymore!"
I always feel that this is because of a question that runs deeper than my anxieties. This question I feel is the most fundamental one that could be asked, and it's, "Why is there something, rather than nothing?"
It seems that it would have just been easier if nothing stayed as nothing, rather than nothing making something. But then again, nothing only is because something is.
I'm completely lost on the subject if you couldn't tell, which is why I'm asking you guys.
Also, I realize that I'm giving "nothing" an object of "something." "Nothing" by my definition is this vague infinite space, or a 0 as defined by mathematics. But really, when I talk about nothing, I'm talking about "No-thing."
Tricky subject. Any thoughts?
A lovely post
I would suggest to just fully be yourself & and the truth will naturally reveal itself within you
No bunch of words anyone can write can undo this riddle for you, you just have to keep quiet, understand your own existence, be at peace
When you are fully at peace, comfortable with your own existence then all is revealed, this whole paradox of everything/nothing is not a paradox outside you, for you to understand with the objectifying intellect, its what you are, to be self/intuitively understood with awareness
Look, but don't touch
|
timelapses
Registered: 01/26/11
Posts: 1,310
Last seen: 9 days, 13 hours
|
Re: Clinging to Birth and Death [Re: The Chronic]
#15788387 - 02/10/12 12:33 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
|
|
Thoughts, existence is eternal and this life is a short ride. I look forward to death as long as it isn't painful, like someone wrote while he was approaching his death, FINALLY SOMETHIng IS HAPPENING to experience. Steve Jobs when dying his last words were Wow... Wow!
But what is the hurry? Life is good and when death comes embrace it.
--------------------
|
r72rock
Learning to Grow
Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 577
Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 3 months, 12 days
|
Re: Clinging to Birth and Death [Re: timelapses]
#15790194 - 02/10/12 07:50 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kickle said:
"Emptiness is form and form is emptiness. Emptiness is not other than form, and form is not other than emptiness."
Realizing emptiness is invaluable. The way to realizing emptiness is through right action. Right actions are the product of a good heart. Do not take my word for it. Look and see if that is true -- when you act on your heart do you feel emptier or fuller? Lighter or heavier? Emptiness in my experience is right here, right now.
Thanks. That was very insightful. I'll let my heart speak. 
Quote:
White Beard said:
Just observer your thoughts. I find this works for me. The more you observe and not get involved, they seem to lose their power to control. Even if thoughts come up that you think you really have to figure out, just let them go about. Be confused for a while. What does the experience of being confused feel like? Why is it necessary to end confusion? Just watch this all and I think you'll do great.
Quote:
The Chronic said:
A lovely post
I would suggest to just fully be yourself & and the truth will naturally reveal itself within you
No bunch of words anyone can write can undo this riddle for you, you just have to keep quiet, understand your own existence, be at peace
When you are fully at peace, comfortable with your own existence then all is revealed, this whole paradox of everything/nothing is not a paradox outside you, for you to understand with the objectifying intellect, its what you are, to be self/intuitively understood with awareness
Look, but don't touch
I felt that these two were similar and direct. It's okay for me to be confused. I'm just human. 
Quote:
timelapses said:
But what is the hurry? Life is good and when death comes embrace it.
I hope I'll be open to it with my arms wide open.
--------------------
现在
Refraining from all evil, not clinging to birth and death, working in deep compassion for all sentient beings, respecting those over you and pitying those below you, without any detesting or desiring, worrying or lamentation - this is what is called Buddha. Do not search beyond it. - Dōgen
|
timelapses
Registered: 01/26/11
Posts: 1,310
Last seen: 9 days, 13 hours
|
Re: Clinging to Birth and Death [Re: r72rock]
#15790307 - 02/10/12 08:21 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
|
|
White Beard, lol, yellow beard, black beard, it's humorous to me.
--------------------
|
White Beard
Venerable White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 2,318
Loc: In the forest somewhere.
Last seen: 1 hour, 18 minutes
|
Re: Clinging to Birth and Death [Re: timelapses]
#15790439 - 02/10/12 09:06 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
|
|
Yeah man, I'm a pirate 
|
Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,340
Last seen: 19 hours, 47 minutes
|
Re: Clinging to Birth and Death [Re: White Beard]
#15790565 - 02/10/12 09:47 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
|
|
I'll let my heart speak.
Suhweeeeeeeeeeeeeet
|
timelapses
Registered: 01/26/11
Posts: 1,310
Last seen: 9 days, 13 hours
|
Re: Clinging to Birth and Death [Re: Kickle]
#15794651 - 02/11/12 07:34 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
|
|
Lost in translation. My meaning.
--------------------
|
cbub
thread killer
Registered: 10/17/10
Posts: 769
Last seen: 1 hour, 22 minutes
|
Re: Clinging to Birth and Death [Re: LipovBog]
#15795083 - 02/11/12 08:52 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Is there anybody here that read's Srila Prabhupada's books ?
I have Srimad Bhagavatam on the desk, right in front of me. It ended up here by complete coincidence, if you believe in those.
|
LipovBog
sā tv asmin parama-prema-rūpā
Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 58
Last seen: 4 days, 21 minutes
|
Re: Clinging to Birth and Death [Re: cbub]
#15803520 - 02/13/12 02:13 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
cbub said:
Quote:
Is there anybody here that read's Srila Prabhupada's books ?
I have Srimad Bhagavatam on the desk, right in front of me. It ended up here by complete coincidence, if you believe in those.
well that's good to hear, and i don't belive in coincidence
|
cbub
thread killer
Registered: 10/17/10
Posts: 769
Last seen: 1 hour, 22 minutes
|
Re: Clinging to Birth and Death [Re: LipovBog]
#15806263 - 02/13/12 10:25 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
To je naklučje 
**language pun reference
| |
|
|
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Mr. Middle, Shroomism, Diploid, Kickle, c0sm0nautt
269 topic views. 1 members, 8 guests and 1 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic ]
| | |
|
|
|
Previous
Index
Next
Threaded
Edit 
Reply 
