|
 imachavel
Stranger
Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 5,619
Loc: Florida - not listed
Last seen: 3 hours, 19 minutes
|
 take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs
#15780435 - 02/08/12 05:14 PM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
|
|
imachavel:
from a few years ago, but tell me the numbers are good
http://www.davidduke.com/general/no-jobs-for-college-graduates-many-stay-at-home_18562.html
has 80% gone down to 3 percent in the last two years?
Few Jobs for College Graduates; 80 Percent Move Back Home | The Official Website of Representative.
www.davidduke.com
Few Jobs for College Graduates; 80 Percent Move Back Home by Jeff Davis Most young Whites in college are hoping to graduate, find a job, earn a good
anonymous person:
Sean PernaLonga Nicolle
buddy, that's the worst source for data you could find
that's a politician's website
if you're taking your information from politician's as gospel, well,t hat would be unfortunate
the point is, the job market is fucking crazy, there are plenty of opportunities. people just don't want to hustle their way up the ladders provided them
oh, and fuck that politician, btw. he's stance on israel is obnoxious as fuck.
imachavel:
oh wow, politicians are liers? guess who provides most of the labor statistic census? You think small non government companies provide those statistics?
is my thread going to be closed because it doesn't invoke discussion? I'm really curious to what people think of all this
|
 Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 20,876
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 1 minute, 34 seconds
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: imachavel]
#15780453 - 02/08/12 05:19 PM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
|
|
Do you know who David Duke is?
--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway
If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy
He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
|
imachavel
Stranger
Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 5,619
Loc: Florida - not listed
Last seen: 3 hours, 19 minutes
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: Madtowntripper]
#15780528 - 02/08/12 05:34 PM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
|
|
well please inform us. And please don't derail the thread, which is more about students that can't find jobs, then it is about david duke:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Duke
HAHAHAHAHA, former klu klux clan representative? HAHAHA those meta tags really work when searching google huh? Find me a reason the article is wrong? It shouldn't matter who compiled the information:
David Ernest Duke (born July 1, 1950) is a former Grand Wizard of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan an American activist and writer, and former Republican Louisiana State Representative.
was honest enough to be a state representative. I don't know if he lived in Couer D Lane Idaho, but man please show me STATISTICS ABOUT GRADUATING STUDENTS!! Show me!!
|
Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 20,876
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 1 minute, 34 seconds
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: imachavel]
#15780551 - 02/08/12 05:40 PM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
|
|
Oh, I couldn't care less about the conversation.
I'm a college graduate, I have a job. My girlfriend is a college graduate, she has a job.
In my experience, it's pretty easy to get a job after college if you are reasonably intelligent and didn't major in something worthless, like philosophy or art history.
I just thought you might like to know that you're sourcing your information from a virulent racist and anti-semite. You can say it doesn't matter, but anything the guy says is suspect and if you want to have a nuanced conversation with anyone at all you should probably find a better source.
--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway
If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy
He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
|
imachavel
Stranger
Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 5,619
Loc: Florida - not listed
Last seen: 3 hours, 19 minutes
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: Madtowntripper]
#15780679 - 02/08/12 06:11 PM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
|
|
ok, well sorry, I didn't realize two people who have jobs speak for the entire percentage of people who graduate and look for jobs. Also I didn't know the prime factor in keeping a business going, 'sales,' is something simply graduation is going to help someone achieve.
Coca Cola is one of the largest companies in existence, the formula for it is simple, selling it requires resources. A person who graduates from college isn't simply going to be bad or good at sales because he graduated. But then he may or may not be good at anything because he graduated. Do you find real estate a worthless venture? I haven't actually attended college in a good bit, and don't really remember if real estate is something you can get a degree in, or if just an MBA is something you can get a degree in, then get into the real estate market after college.
My post was about more then two people finding jobs. If only two people mattered in finding jobs, I'd spend the rest of my life finding me and another person I know a good $15 an hour job, which isn't great but decent, then when said jobs were found, I'd claim to the world it's not hard to find a job if you work hard, try, and achieve!
Honestly, the idea of writing a business plan, and obtaining a loan, has fallen beyond people. They complain about Obama, compare him to Bush, rip on the Democrats, say tea partiers and republicans will fix everything. But people no longer understand the concept of a job that isn't provided by a corporation, people no longer under stand the concept of someone who wants to obtain a loan, and start a business. I laugh when I hear of people I know who become homeless. It is funny to me, no one guarantees you anything. Hard work is not even a factor in today's beliefs about keeping a business in cycle.
It's simply appearance, and good manageability. Well, that isn't how it works in real life. Without construction workers, a building won't get built, no matter how many people think that only contractors and real estate specialists sell buildings, it won't get built without labor. Is labor replaceable? Is it's workers expendable? Absolutely. If no people built the building, would it get built? Hell no!
|
imachavel
Stranger
Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 5,619
Loc: Florida - not listed
Last seen: 3 hours, 19 minutes
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: Madtowntripper]
#15780742 - 02/08/12 06:25 PM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
|
|
well then again, you seem to have an over all opinion that does not seem to be for dems vs repubs. You seem to see beyond the line that dems or repubs create very opposing views on major political subjects. they have minor differences on opinions, right wing left wing etc. etc. etc. etc. and the out come is the same. was there really more or less war with Obama or George bush, more or less jobs?
straws start being pulled, and then lemmings decide they are going to go vote against the person who pulled the shortest straw. Thank god some people see past that. It's amazing how that is almost racist in it's entirety. well if dems and repubs argue over jobs, then why not blacks and whites argue over jobs? Oh but then we aren't pulled straws are we. Then we are defining different opinions:
1) a race of people is lower class and cannot afford an education for careers
2) a race of people commits 85% of the crime in the United States, and is therefore not qualified to get jobs, because lack of ability or DESIRE for education, especially if said people are perhaps in jail?
3) race has nothing to do with it, it's individual choice, and minorities are not properly compiled in statistical data
4) the last thing I said is a complete lie, they are correctly compiled in statistical data
Well this thread could be closed for racism, but this IS the political debate forum, is it not??
|
 Shill
♋♋♋♋♋♋♋♋♋♋♋
Registered: 11/23/11
Posts: 2,864
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: imachavel]
#15780909 - 02/08/12 07:00 PM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
|
|
It's their fucking fault they...
A - didn't do all that great
B - chose a retarded and worthless major, like liberal arts instead of something worth a crap
C - are too fucking lazy
D - all of the above and then some
--------------------
The countdown to the break up of the euro has officially begun.
A great financial crisis is going to erupt in Europe, and it is going to shake the world to the core.
If you were frightened by what happened back in 2008, then you are going to be absolutely horrified by what is coming next.
"You throw the sand against the wind
And the wind blows it back again."
- William Blake
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,195
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 36 minutes
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: Shill]
#15782305 - 02/09/12 02:29 AM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
|
|
> B - chose a retarded and worthless major, like liberal arts instead of something worth a crap
B.5 - paid way too much to party for four years while "earning" their worthless degree and are now saddled with a lifetime of insane debt.
--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.
|
fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 23,674
Loc: Red Panda Village
Last seen: 3 hours, 18 minutes
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: imachavel]
#15782367 - 02/09/12 03:34 AM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
imachavel said:
well then again, you seem to have an over all opinion that does not seem to be for dems vs repubs. You seem to see beyond the line that dems or repubs create very opposing views on major political subjects. they have minor differences on opinions, right wing left wing etc. etc. etc. etc. and the out come is the same. was there really more or less war with Obama or George bush, more or less jobs?
There's the political spectrum and then there's the pendulum of power that alternates back and forth. There might not be a lot of difference in results but that's because of the tug on power that each sides exert. They do a lot of balancing out, at least in recent history. If some wave of events happened that allowed that pendulum of power to swing pretty far left or pretty far right, you'd see just how much difference there is between each party's vision for how things should be. 
--------------------
  
 
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
|
Shill
♋♋♋♋♋♋♋♋♋♋♋
Registered: 11/23/11
Posts: 2,864
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: Seuss]
#15782506 - 02/09/12 05:41 AM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Seuss said:
> B - chose a retarded and worthless major, like liberal arts instead of something worth a crap
B.5 - paid way too much to party for four years while "earning" their worthless degree and are now saddled with a lifetime of insane debt.
True, good thing it's possible to pay it off with your mortgage then strategically default
--------------------
The countdown to the break up of the euro has officially begun.
A great financial crisis is going to erupt in Europe, and it is going to shake the world to the core.
If you were frightened by what happened back in 2008, then you are going to be absolutely horrified by what is coming next.
"You throw the sand against the wind
And the wind blows it back again."
- William Blake
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,195
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 36 minutes
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: Shill]
#15782597 - 02/09/12 06:31 AM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Shill said:
Quote:
Seuss said:
> B - chose a retarded and worthless major, like liberal arts instead of something worth a crap
B.5 - paid way too much to party for four years while "earning" their worthless degree and are now saddled with a lifetime of insane debt.
True, good thing it's possible to pay it off with your mortgage then strategically default
One of my favorite...
Quote:
Under the campaign — which grew from the original Occupy Wall Street protest and is now known, inevitably, as Occupy Student Debt — borrowers will pledge to stop repaying their student loans once 1 million people vow to do so as well. The campaign is calling for several reforms of higher education, including free public colleges, no-interest loans, greater transparency at private and for-profit colleges and complete forgiveness of all existing student debt.
They want free education? Somebody has to pay for it. Why should it be me and the other taxpayers? Perhaps they should forgo an education and get a job washing dishes or picking produce. They will learn the valuable skill of how to be a laborer and get paid for their effort and I won't have to foot the bill so they can party for four years. Talk about win-win.
--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.
|
imachavel
Stranger
Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 5,619
Loc: Florida - not listed
Last seen: 3 hours, 19 minutes
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: Seuss]
#15783024 - 02/09/12 09:06 AM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
|
|
holy shit. it's as though the world is blind to reality, and makes up for it by being a bunch of spoiled brats maybe the republicans will fix the problem
Edited by imachavel (02/09/12 09:09 AM)
|
Shill
♋♋♋♋♋♋♋♋♋♋♋
Registered: 11/23/11
Posts: 2,864
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: imachavel]
#15783070 - 02/09/12 09:19 AM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
|
|
Your really full of yourself
--------------------
The countdown to the break up of the euro has officially begun.
A great financial crisis is going to erupt in Europe, and it is going to shake the world to the core.
If you were frightened by what happened back in 2008, then you are going to be absolutely horrified by what is coming next.
"You throw the sand against the wind
And the wind blows it back again."
- William Blake
|
Mind Transcribing
Candy Baron
Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2,342
Loc: Lost in Tanaris
Last seen: 2 months, 19 days
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: Shill]
#15783568 - 02/09/12 11:27 AM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Shill said:
Your really full of yourself
He has to be - his self-constructed identity depends on it
|
imachavel
Stranger
Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 5,619
Loc: Florida - not listed
Last seen: 3 hours, 19 minutes
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: Mind Transcribing]
#15784460 - 02/09/12 03:02 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
|
|
oh wow, maybe I should take these two opinions into account. I sign up for an account on a drug forum, and hear people tell me I'm full of myself, real contributors to society 
|
meams
Blessed
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 16,172
Loc: In a Tree
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: imachavel] 1
#15784513 - 02/09/12 03:15 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
imachavel said:
ok, well sorry, I didn't realize two people who have jobs speak for the entire percentage of people who graduate and look for jobs.
I graduated, I have a job.
Then again, when i graduated undergrad, it was Dec 2008 and the world was crumbling. So I went back to grad school. THen i got my job.
The key is to look. And when called upon (for interview) to not be a fucking idiot, and to show them - beyond any reasonable doubt - taht you're the man for the job.
I know when i went in for my interview at my current job, I had their entire dept structure memorized - with opinions on where I would fit in best - and could recite their value structure from memory and speak to how I emulate each value individually.
it's about being better than the other candidates. PS your original data source was concocted by an idiot.
|
Mr. Bojangles
Breathe In
Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 1,338
Loc: The Dirty
Last seen: 1 hour, 15 minutes
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: meams]
#15784645 - 02/09/12 03:44 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
|
|
I graduated and I have a job...but I switched majors to make sure I had a good job.
There's a pretty big problem with PhD's in biotechnology not being able to find jobs in America. Well...jobs that pay off for the schooling you just did. This is only a recent development. I'm not sure about other countries but apparently the number of people with PhD's in chemistry, biology, biochem, etc are outpacing the number good jobs and even postdocs. You go to undergrad for 4-5 years, you go to grad school for 4-7 years and expect that your 8-12 years of higher education will get you an awesome job (it used to be a damn near guarantee).
But now there's just so many applicants for faculty positions that it's ridiculous. You need to spend another 4-7 years in a shitty postdoc position just to get enough publications and cred under your belt to be competitive for PhD worthy jobs. You can usually always get a postdoc position, but they're maxing out. Whereas a postdoc used to get paid 40k a year, now there's so many that labs are hiring more and paying them less (typical workload for postdocs at my old university was like 12 hour days). I was a biochemistry major with all intents of going on to get my PhD and land an awesome job in industry or academia but after hearing the horror stories from grad students and such I just switched to engineering. 12-19 years of being a lab bitch is not my idea of my PhD paying off.
It's a battle of attrition now. Whoever stays in the game of long hours and shitty pay the longest finally gets that principal investigator position. This is just biotech, mind you...and not engineering...just sciences. That's why I switched to engineering  So yeah, unless you have some sweet publications under you're belt already, are really set on the hard sciences, or plan on moving out of the country...I'd steer clear of that sector cuz you may end up moving back in with the 'rents 
--------------------
"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong."
-Fracois Marie Voltaire
|
meams
Blessed
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 16,172
Loc: In a Tree
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: Mr. Bojangles]
#15784707 - 02/09/12 03:57 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Mr. Bojangles said:
It's a battle of attrition now. Whoever stays in the game of long hours and shitty pay the longest finally gets that position.
Truth. Other workers around you may think they're entitled to XYZ job or XYZ salary because they have XYZ schooling. Because they went into school with some calculations based on assumptions that are no longer true.
So, stick it out, or float until you find the thing you "deserve". I always vote for 'stick it out' - because when the economy resurfaces ( ::Fingers crossed:: ) it'll be the hard workers who are the go-to guys.
|
imachavel
Stranger
Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 5,619
Loc: Florida - not listed
Last seen: 3 hours, 19 minutes
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: meams]
#15785316 - 02/09/12 06:15 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
|
|
well I love the optimism, but anyway all opinions aside, here are facts:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/business/economy/19grads.html?_r=1
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,559
Last seen: 2 minutes, 4 seconds
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: imachavel] 1
#15785369 - 02/09/12 06:29 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
|
|
Do you know why a college degree is worth less today than it used to be? Because liberals thought it was the schools and/or the credentials that mattered. When the universe of college attendees is expanded to include mediocrities, as if teaching a dog to dance will get him in the Joffrie, then a college degree will become a badge of mediocrity
--------------------
|
imachavel
Stranger
Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 5,619
Loc: Florida - not listed
Last seen: 3 hours, 19 minutes
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: zappaisgod]
#15785430 - 02/09/12 06:44 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
|
|
I disagree with Zappa a lot, but I don't disagree with that. But then you can't remove someones right to attend school.
Are all the people in this thread who have previously agreed for political or non political reasons that the economy is crap, the stock market is crap, jobs are scarce, now going to say that college graduates not finding jobs is simply happening because they SUCK? Is the reason for about 8% national unemployment because people suck? If it is, then I'd sure like to hear it. I think I may be ignorant of things, please help me be informed? By the way I don't want to be classified as reading pseudo media garbage. Umm, good links please?
You see how that looks? If we are going to discuss things like people, then actual facts should come from actual documents. I understand people here have jobs, and graduated from college. Can 13% previous unemployment all be blamed on people not being qualified for something?
|
Mind Transcribing
Candy Baron
Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2,342
Loc: Lost in Tanaris
Last seen: 2 months, 19 days
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: imachavel]
#15787308 - 02/10/12 04:27 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
imachavel said:
I disagree with Zappa a lot, but I don't disagree with that. But then you can't remove someones right to attend school.
Are all the people in this thread who have previously agreed for political or non political reasons that the economy is crap, the stock market is crap, jobs are scarce, now going to say that college graduates not finding jobs is simply happening because they SUCK? Is the reason for about 8% national unemployment because people suck? If it is, then I'd sure like to hear it. I think I may be ignorant of things, please help me be informed? By the way I don't want to be classified as reading pseudo media garbage. Umm, good links please?
You see how that looks? If we are going to discuss things like people, then actual facts should come from actual documents. I understand people here have jobs, and graduated from college. Can 13% previous unemployment all be blamed on people not being qualified for something?
Nobody should have a right to go to college if they do not have the grades/money to pay for it.
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,835
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: Mr. Bojangles]
#15788049 - 02/10/12 09:38 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Mr. Bojangles said:
12-19 years of being a lab bitch is not my idea of my PhD paying off.
I hear this kind of stuff a lot and wonder where it comes from... If you majored in science dont you want to work in a lab? Thats what PhDs often do, they work in labs.
I would love to work in a lab, thats why Im working on a PhD.
|
Therian
Stranger
Registered: 03/04/09
Posts: 409
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: Mind Transcribing]
#15788076 - 02/10/12 09:46 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
|
|
It is apparent that for one to assume that if another educated individual can't find employment then they either choose to endeavor in a worthless field or are lazy. Where I come from nothing could be further from the truth.
I can't think of one person that hasn't told me that their friend that has a degree in engineering, biotech, advanced chemistry, etc. and is working at a gas station, cleaning office buildings, or working at some factory for minimum wage with no benefits. There are many counties in Michigan that have a stated (not the actual)unemployment rate of 30% or higher. There have been HR personnel in the media talking about for every job opening there are often 5 THOUSAND or more applicants.
What good is an engineer when nothing is being manufactured? There was both a Bristol Meyers and Pfizer facilities that closed down. The vast majority of the employees were very highly skilled and educated scientists, biologists,pharmacologists, chemical engineers, etc. Thousands were laid off when the plants closed, and there were/are no similar jobs which required a skill set similar to those, if any at all. Therefore you can often find a chemical engineer working at the local supermarket stocking shelves, this shit is so common here I can't believe others would blame it on poor major selection in college.
Many have left the state to search for employment elsewhere, while tens of thousands of others are unable to do so. Many owe more money on their houses than they are worth, and have no options, but to take the minimum wage job. The odd thing is the only majors that often insure gainful employment post college are in the field of the "soft sciences" Do you have a degree in engineering? Well go apply at the local car wash, because you may get a job there if your lucky. Do you have a degree in social work, or minority studies? Employers are lining up to court you. If you are a bilingual social worker you can nearly set your own salary.
I guess others that haven't experienced what it is like just can't fathom it, its ridiculous. There usually are jobs in the health care sector but even those are often for lower level employees. I know a woman that received a Masters in physical therapy and can only find part time and per diem work here. Remember when you used to go to the hospital and you would have maybe ten nurses on the unit looking providing care for the patients? Now they hire one nurse that completes the paperwork and 10 nurse aids. The same goes for those with degrees in PT, OT, etc. The need for those with advanced degrees has been minimized replacing them with low paid aids or assistants. Great money saving move for the hospitals, not so much for the patients care.
I'll have to post pics of some of the news stories here where xyz company is hiring 5 new line workers. The application process starts at 9am. The media is often on site at 7am to video the line of thousands of potential workers that starts at the building winds around and ends up far out in the parking lot, and this is two hours before the process even begins. Yeah, Americans are fucking lazy and want a handout, they have all these options but just want everything given to them.
|
Mr. Bojangles
Breathe In
Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 1,338
Loc: The Dirty
Last seen: 1 hour, 15 minutes
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: DieCommie] 1
#15788610 - 02/10/12 01:27 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
Mr. Bojangles said:
12-19 years of being a lab bitch is not my idea of my PhD paying off.
I hear this kind of stuff a lot and wonder where it comes from... If you majored in science dont you want to work in a lab? Thats what PhDs often do, they work in labs.
I would love to work in a lab, thats why Im working on a PhD.
Yes you want to work in a lab, but you want to be the Principal Investigator (PI) not their bitch, which you essentially are if you aren't a PI. You want to be the one figuring out the problems, coming up with projects...you want to be the boss. You want to choose when you're in the lab, not forced to be there around the clock. As a PhD candidate and postdoc you're pretty much the grunt worker. Yeah you might have your own project/thesis and everything but it's under the care and watchful eye of your PI. You also get paid about $100k less than a PI if you're a PhD student or postdoc.
So let me re-phrase. Personally I would hate running assays, columns, and dead end reactions for 12-19 years for 20-50k a year. I'd much rather get people (ie - grad students and postdocs) to do my shit for me (or do it myself, when I feel like it), choose my own hours, take most of the credit (my name appears on all publications coming out of my lab and I get all the funding and determine how to divvy it up), and get paid 100-400k a year. That's what I would like my over a fucking decade of enslavement to earn me...and right now it's not doing that for ~90% of the science PhD's out there.
--------------------
"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong."
-Fracois Marie Voltaire
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,835
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: Mr. Bojangles]
#15789213 - 02/10/12 03:37 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Personally I would hate running assays, columns, and dead end reactions for 12-19 years for 20-50k a year. I'd much rather get people (ie - grad students and postdocs) to do my shit for me (or do it myself, when I feel like it), choose my own hours, take most of the credit (my name appears on all publications coming out of my lab and I get all the funding and determine how to divvy it up), and get paid 100-400k a year. That's what I would like my over a fucking decade of enslavement to earn me...and right now it's not doing that for ~90% of the science PhD's out there.
I think you have some incredibly high and unwarranted expectations there. I think that is the primary reason that most people are unhappy with their degree, they expect the degree to be a get a high pay job for free ticket and its not and it should never be billed as such.
|
Mr. Bojangles
Breathe In
Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 1,338
Loc: The Dirty
Last seen: 1 hour, 15 minutes
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: DieCommie]
#15789783 - 02/10/12 06:00 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
|
|
It's not high expectations at all. Whats lofty about wanting to make a good bit more money than someone with their bachelors when I have my PhD? To have more independence, job security, and freedom? Is it wrong to expect a payoff? Have you ever worked in research before? What I described is exactly what happens in academic research all across the country. The money isn't the main factor, of course, but you expect to get more than 50k a year if you spend all of your young adult life in school.
And I know how much my old PI's used to make, thanks to Georgia's awesome open salary database It's the fact that if you go on to get your PhD in certain fields, you come out making just as much money and doing the same work as those who just came out with their BS.
The primary reason is discussed pretty well in a few articles from Nature less than a year ago:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v472/n7343/full/472259b.html
http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110420/full/472276a.html
http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110420/full/472280a.html
http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/science/articles/10.1038/nj7343-381a
Quote:
Most PhD students are striving toward a tenured professorship, but academia just can’t take all these graduates. In 1973, 55 percent of PhD recipients had tenure-track positions within six years of earning their PhDs. In 2006, merely 15 percent of recent graduates found themselves in this position.
15% of PhD's get tenure track positions within SIX YEARS. Six years is quite a long time to be sitting on a PhD without a good job to pay it off. And only 15% were making it pay off after that time. It wears on you man...if you're fine with doing someone else's project, working in someone else's lab with co-workers whom you did not pick..then be my guest. There's just so many PhD's, there's plenty of work for you but with less pay than ever before and it's even harder to land that secure, well paying position.
--------------------
"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong."
-Fracois Marie Voltaire
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,835
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: Mr. Bojangles]
#15789816 - 02/10/12 06:10 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
|
|
I know all about the job prospects for PhDs. There have been more PhDs than tenure track positions available since about the beginning of the cold war. Do you think that a PhD entities you to a tenure track position? Thats not a reasonable expectation, and hasn't been in generations.
|
Mr. Bojangles
Breathe In
Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 1,338
Loc: The Dirty
Last seen: 1 hour, 15 minutes
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: DieCommie]
#15789848 - 02/10/12 06:18 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
|
|
It's what I'd like, or something that pays off in the long run and not the longer run...with industry shriveling up there's nothing left but postdocs in most cases. And your boy does not want to be stuck in a postdoc, it's like career purgatory.
--------------------
"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong."
-Fracois Marie Voltaire
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,835
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: Mr. Bojangles]
#15789909 - 02/10/12 06:36 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
|
|
Well, a lot of football players would love to go pro. And a lot of guitar players would love a hit album. The difference between you and them is you can fall back one a decent 50k lab job while they cannot.
|
Mr. Bojangles
Breathe In
Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 1,338
Loc: The Dirty
Last seen: 1 hour, 15 minutes
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: DieCommie]
#15790164 - 02/10/12 07:44 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
|
|
I can also get an even better salary by being a chemical engineer rather than a biochemist, go to school for one extra year to get the dual degree, get hired anywhere and get paid significantly more with bunches more free time doing exactly what I wanted to do with biochemistry in the first place
I just don't understand reasoning to get a PhD in the sciences today if not for the money. You want to work in a lab? Go for it. Get your BS and work in a lab; practically all non-PhD positions are lab positions. You want to broaden your knowledge? You'll be doing stuff on your own while completing your PhD anyway so why not do it while earning some more money with that BS. You want to focus on something you enjoy? Same as before. You'll also have more time since most BS jobs are 9-5's. Want to network? You'll be able to go to more conferences with the extra money and free time of a job and you'll be out there in the field just like you would be in your PhD work.
Without the prospect of tenure-track or similar jobs...what other appeal is there to a PhD? The prestige of being called doctor? Not worth the 12-19 years I just put in. You're virtually free labor for academia when you could be working a steady salary with actual [normal] hours with your BS, putting yourself in more opportunities to open more doors and doing pretty much the same thing your PhD buddies are doing at the same time.
--------------------
"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong."
-Fracois Marie Voltaire
|
Therian
Stranger
Registered: 03/04/09
Posts: 409
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: Mr. Bojangles]
#15790793 - 02/10/12 10:50 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I'd much rather get people (ie - grad students and postdocs) to do my shit for me (or do it myself, when I feel like it), choose my own hours, take most of the credit (my name appears on all publications coming out of my lab and I get all the funding and determine how to divvy it up), and get paid 100-400k a year. That's what I would like my over a fucking decade of enslavement to earn me...and right now it's not doing that for ~90% of the science PhD's out there.
Honestly you shouldn't bitch. First and foremost, you are working in your field. Secondly, I don't see how working in a lab could ever be considered "grunt work". Also from the above quote it seems like you would enjoy becoming the very douchebag you complain about. "Have everyone else do the work, and you get all the credit"? It seems to me as though your aspirations of becoming the douchebag have come to fruition.
Come to my state with your degree and you would be a dockworker somewhere making eight bucks an hour with no benefits. You would be performing real grunt work inhaling diesel fumes, manually lifting tens of thousands of pounds of freight in a non environmentally controlled environment, where no one gives a fuck about your degree, delusions of grandeur, or your desire for a tenure track position. The idea of the phenomenon of tenure its self is absolute bullshit.
|
meams
Blessed
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 16,172
Loc: In a Tree
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: Mr. Bojangles]
#15791964 - 02/11/12 08:54 AM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Mr. Bojangles said:
So let me re-phrase. Personally I would hate running assays, columns, and dead end reactions for 12-19 years for 20-50k a year. I'd much rather get people (ie - grad students and postdocs) to do my shit for me (or do it myself, when I feel like it), choose my own hours, take most of the credit (my name appears on all publications coming out of my lab and I get all the funding and determine how to divvy it up), and get paid 100-400k a year. That's what I would like my over a fucking decade of enslavement to earn me...and right now it's not doing that for ~90% of the science PhD's out there.
Guess what? I bet your old PIs went through this process: working their way up the ladder. If you're unwilling to do this - you should just drop out of the labor force. Not only are there more graduates with PhDs now, but government spending on R&D is being cut back, which means that people with expierience (which you lack, because you're unwilling to be a grunt) will be competing for the same low-wage lab jobs you're unwilling to take. With that combination how do you ever expect to achieve anything?
Besides - wtf do you know about being a PI? I feel like you need some experience working with projects before you can adequately become a project manager. That's why certifications require experience levels:
-PMP (Project Management Professional) requires 4 years PM experience.
-CGFM (Certified Government FInancial Manager) requires 2 years FM experience.
I can guarentee you that I could pass the 3 CGFM tests right now - but I don't have the requisite experience, so I'm stuck without my cert for the next 1.5yr. But that's ok, because i'm putting in my dues at the low-wage, low-skilled positions, proving to my superiors that I'M the one they can rely on for prompt, quality work. Then, when better positions become available and they're looking at their internal candidates (which most smart companies are doing right now) they'll know who to turn to: me.
You should put in your work at the lower level, so when (if) the economy strengthens and R&D resumes previous levels, you'll have the requisite experience to be a PI.
I know for a fact right now that our biodefense is lacking. I read in the NYT (or maybe WSJ) that we have adequate stores for like.... one type of biological attack agent - and there are so fucking many of them. that's the type of job sector you could pursue - but you've determiend that you're "above" the grunt work.
... just a bad outlook.
did I just wake up? I feel like i just rambled for like 8 paragraphs.
|
Mr. Bojangles
Breathe In
Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 1,338
Loc: The Dirty
Last seen: 1 hour, 15 minutes
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: meams]
#15792385 - 02/11/12 11:11 AM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Therian said:
Honestly you shouldn't bitch. First and foremost, you are working in your field. Secondly, I don't see how working in a lab could ever be considered "grunt work". Also from the above quote it seems like you would enjoy becoming the very douchebag you complain about. "Have everyone else do the work, and you get all the credit"? It seems to me as though your aspirations of becoming the douchebag have come to fruition.
Have you ever worked in a lab before? Imagine doing the same assay over and over and over again for months, maybe years. Have you ever had to deal with TEMED or mercaptoethanol for weeks upon weeks on end? It's really enjoyable and it's not something you really want to be doing after your just spent 6 years of PhD work doing it. That is grunt work. You're the person that does all the menial processes. Just because you work in a lab does not mean you aren't doing something that is trivially easy and boring. I'm also not calling the PI's douchebags, it's the way academia works today. There is a hierarchy system inherent to pretty much all research labs across America. Someone has to manage the projects, manage the labs...that's the PI. They provide the resources, the guidance and the space...and in return their grad students and postdocs crank out legitimate research for them so they can get more funding.
I know a lot about PI's. I've worked very closely with PI's for the past 8 years or so. Getting your PhD is working projects. It's nothing but a series of very long projects. I think the PI's you work around and the PI's I work around are quite different because Principal Investigators don't really need any certifications for anything in my field. If you work in clinical trials you probably need your CPI but that's about it.
Quote:
meams said:You should put in your work at the lower level, so when (if) the economy strengthens and R&D resumes previous levels, you'll have the requisite experience to be a PI.
And that is your PhD work. It has less to do with requisite experience than a supply/demand problem that isn't getting any better.
Quote:
meams said:
But that's ok, because i'm putting in my dues at the low-wage, low-skilled positions, proving to my superiors that I'M the one they can rely on for prompt, quality work. Then, when better positions become available and they're looking at their internal candidates (which most smart companies are doing right now) they'll know who to turn to: me.
I'm not arguing AT ALL with this. This is pretty much what I'm talking about. The work a PhD does has essentially turned into low-wage, moderate-skill work. After you've just spend 6 years doing even lower-wage, moderate-skill work. If you can go and work in a lab with your BS (which you most certainly can), put in the grunt work, show your superiors that you're doing quality stuff, do your own research when you can and have good ideas...and then move up the ladder because of that...then WHY, pray tell, spend the extra time and resources in getting your PhD?
Please understand that I'm not about taking an "easy way out" on this. I hope I didn't convey that message. You need to do the menial tasks, I know. You pay your dues and the dues pay off...but PhD's are not paying off. Getting a PhD is just a way of elongating that time of doing menial tasks. You come out of grad school 6 years later only to be doing slightly higher grunt work than the BS holder who came out 6 years earlier and is now higher on the ladder than you are because he put his time in with the lab/company and showed to everyone that he can do it. Not to mention the BS holder had a higher pay during those 6 years and more time off/benefits.
--------------------
"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong."
-Fracois Marie Voltaire
Edited by Mr. Bojangles (02/11/12 11:18 AM)
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,559
Last seen: 2 minutes, 4 seconds
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: Mr. Bojangles] 2
#15792413 - 02/11/12 11:17 AM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
|
|
For a great many people post graduate education is a means to avoid adulthood. Which is why there is a glut of PhDs. Stop wasting your time and become a plumber. By the way that will give you a whole new perspective on what "grunt work" is. Also a much better paycheck, especially if you can pass the test to get licensed. No dissertation or defense of such required.
--------------------
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,835
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: zappaisgod]
#15792516 - 02/11/12 11:39 AM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
For a great many people post graduate education is a means to avoid adulthood. Which is why there is a glut of PhDs.
Heh, honestly that is a big reason why I am working on a PhD. Its fun, my best job ever, I get paid and I avoid adulthood for a few more years.
|
imachavel
Stranger
Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 5,619
Loc: Florida - not listed
Last seen: 3 hours, 19 minutes
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: DieCommie]
#15795444 - 02/11/12 10:13 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
|
|
I understand your point of view, and don't mean to agree with everyone else so much. Many degrees, not just PHDs, are generally becoming more and more worthless, and putting in grunt work, and having an 8 year degree, should be worth quite a bit. But dude look at your prospective point of view, Borders was a billion dollar company, and went bankrupt, they don't exist.
These days having a job in your field goes a long ways, and also consider the state you live in. Some people these days get a PHD, live in a state where the career is rarely appreciated, and then don't get a job in that field at all, and seriously have a shit job. Now I know you said putting in the grunt work is very important, and didn't skip it. But think about it, I know very little about chemistry or bio chemistry, physics or like wise science for that matter. But I do understand, an over seers job will be the same in a science field as a grunt. His job will be over seeing projects. The pay and position status might not be rewarding, but you are talking about being a chemical engineer.
When does being a chemical engineer come easy? A basic chemistry project, involves many things, temperature, variables, basic PH, linking molecule chains together into structures that could be carbon based, other based, etc. Then purification comes into process. If you create a chemical, pharmaceutical, bio chemical, it is chained together based on molecular compatibility, then it needs to be tested in a thousand different conditions, at 66 degrees F, 67, 68, 69, 66 with different humidity, 67 with different humidity, 68 with different humidity, etc. No is trying to explain to you that leveling up is not important if you have an 8 year degree. You are very well spoken and I enjoy reading your posts very much, I have been very well informed on some job characteristics based on your posts about PHD expectations.
No degree right now is worth what it used to be. No one is getting a free ride. You could have much less. Stay with the grunt work and you could easily be the engineer you want to be. Remember an engineer can possibly get in one a patent process, where you get royalties of whatever you engineer. Although I'm not sure if that applies to chemistry the same as it applies to other fields of engineering where patents come into play, just saying you have options.
|
fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 23,674
Loc: Red Panda Village
Last seen: 3 hours, 18 minutes
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: imachavel]
#15796080 - 02/12/12 01:45 AM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
imachavel said:
Some people these days get a PHD, live in a state where the career is rarely appreciated, and then don't get a job in that field at all, and seriously have a shit job.
These people sound like morons who never understood that there are 49 other states and plenty of other countries out there.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
|
Luddite
cognitive dissident
Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,284
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: zappaisgod]
#15796538 - 02/12/12 07:06 AM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Do you know why a college degree is worth less today than it used to be? Because liberals thought it was the schools and/or the credentials that mattered. When the universe of college attendees is expanded to include mediocrities, as if teaching a dog to dance will get him in the Joffrie, then a college degree will become a badge of mediocrity
Sterilizing undesirables can greatly improve the country.
|
imachavel
Stranger
Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 5,619
Loc: Florida - not listed
Last seen: 3 hours, 19 minutes
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: Luddite]
#15802347 - 02/13/12 09:36 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
|
|
you mean like executing murderers instead of giving them life in prison?
|
Mr. Bojangles
Breathe In
Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 1,338
Loc: The Dirty
Last seen: 1 hour, 15 minutes
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: imachavel]
#15802525 - 02/13/12 10:37 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
|
|
Chemical Engineering isn't easy...but you really only have to get your bachelors degree. 4 years of busting your ass...then profit. 8 years is a PhD in something like history or english...think minimum of 10 years of school for science PhD's. Chemical engineering you at least get paid handsomely for your work. You could almost consider a BS in chemical engineering a terminal degree. And they're in high demand, mainly because no one wants to do the work...but if you looks at the work/payoff ratio I've been describing in regards to PhD studies, it's almost a no brainer.
I don't really considering engineering a science major...it's an engineering major, so when I say science PhD's, I do not mean any of the engineering ones. Their outlook is better than pretty much everyone else's, if you ask me.
--------------------
"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong."
-Fracois Marie Voltaire
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,559
Last seen: 2 minutes, 4 seconds
|
Re: take an interesting look at a conversation I was having with a friend of mine about graduate jobs [Re: Mr. Bojangles]
#15803662 - 02/13/12 02:45 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
|
|
It's a science major because you have to take tons of science courses but you are right that an engineer isn't necessarily a scientist. And if you think more than about 5% of the population could get a Chem E B.S. you are talking to a rather rarified group of people. No matter how hard they tried most people couldn't get through Organic. Ever.
--------------------
|
|
Previous
Index
Next
Threaded
Shop for: 
Edit 
Reply 
