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 Mr Person
Tralfamadorian
Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 91
Loc: Trapped near the inner ci...
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
That is not what the Miller Urey experiment showed- they started with organic molecules, and nobody was or is under any doubt that inorganic compounds can react to form organic compounds.
Rather, the experiment showed that amino acids and other monomers could be produced using simple, realistic natural conditions. From there, it simply takes energy to start producing peptides and other bio-polymers.
As for this not being the same as assembling a working cell from organic chemicals, so what? It also doesn't prove calculus valid- who cares?
It was pithily presented as counter-evidence to my statement that until scientists can construct a working cell from it's constituent parts, there is still room for some other animating force of life to exist conceptually.
I'm glad we both agree that it failed.
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Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder, 'Why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand.
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 falcon
In the green
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 5,150
Last seen: 20 hours, 16 minutes
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 Re: Life from non-ilfe [Re: Mr Person]
#15797066 - 02/12/12 10:19 AM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Haha that's what's wrong with the OP, it asks you to assume that this has been resolved and
Provided that life is a continum from the inaninate to the animate with no single hyper-jump "Aha!" moment,
and it hasn't been resolved.
So given the initial statement in the OP
For the sake of ths thread, let us assume the following scenario is true.
there isn't anything to discuss, the OP is a hypothetical, that doesn't leave any room for discussion.
Of course in the middle of this he throws in,
*The next part is speculative*
Like what the fuck are you supposed to do with that when in the beginning he asks you to assume it's true and at the end, he puts the condition of 'provided'.
The OP is a confusing, mish mash of conditions with misleading qualifiers, easily defended by it's ambiguity that make it unassailable.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor
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Re: Life from non-ilfe [Re: falcon]
#15797119 - 02/12/12 10:30 AM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Short version:
A. If life is not a continuum and there is a hyperleap from non-life to life, then we could possibly talk about an animating force.
B. If life is a continuum from simple molecule to complex molecule to simple life to complex life, then there is no place for a soul or animating force.
Thus far the data appears to support B as the more likely. The only thing to point to A is a gap in our knowledge - negative evidence if you will.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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soldatheero
lastirishman
Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,588
Loc: 
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
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Sure, that is if you completely ignore the existence of sentience and experience altogether.
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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor
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Can you phrase that in a way that makes sense?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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soldatheero
lastirishman
Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,588
Loc:
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
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Quote:
B. If life is a continuum from simple molecule to complex molecule to simple life to complex life, then there is no place for a soul or animating force.
Thus far the data appears to support B as the more likely. The only thing to point to A is a gap in our knowledge - negative evidence if you will.
You are ignoring the problem of consciousness and marginalizing the fact subjective experience cannot be explained. Again B is only more likely if you completely ignore sentience/consciousness/subjective experience.
You can't claim ignorance and then use it to argue your materialist position.
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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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Mr Person
Tralfamadorian
Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 91
Loc: Trapped near the inner ci...
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Re: Life from non-ilfe [Re: falcon]
#15797383 - 02/12/12 11:35 AM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
falcon said:
Haha that's what's wrong with the OP, it asks you to assume that this has been resolved and
Provided that life is a continum from the inaninate to the animate with no single hyper-jump "Aha!" moment,
and it hasn't been resolved.
So given the initial statement in the OP
For the sake of ths thread, let us assume the following scenario is true.
there isn't anything to discuss, the OP is a hypothetical, that doesn't leave any room for discussion.
Of course in the middle of this he throws in,
*The next part is speculative*
Like what the fuck are you supposed to do with that when in the beginning he asks you to assume it's true and at the end, he puts the condition of 'provided'.
The OP is a confusing, mish mash of conditions with misleading qualifiers, easily defended by it's ambiguity that make it unassailable.
Exactly! It's essentially, "Let's just assume I'm right when I say blah blah blah blah...".
:::4 posts later:::
"See I proved myself right with 1 post!"
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Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder, 'Why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor
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Quote:
You are ignoring the problem of consciousness and marginalizing the fact subjective experience cannot be explained. Again B is only more likely if you completely ignore sentience/consciousness/subjective experience.
I am not ignoring something that was not part of the premise. Consciousness is a property and live critters have zillions or properties. This has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not life is continuum from non-life.
Try again.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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soldatheero
lastirishman
Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,588
Loc:
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
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Well do simple molucules have experience/consciousness? or does it arise at a certain point.
I believe that what most people mean by soul or animating life force is the experience, the consciousness.
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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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Breadnbutterfly86
Religion limits human potential
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 840
Loc: Wonderland
Last seen: 16 hours, 20 minutes
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if a rock has a soul then i have a soul...tree, flower... table, chair.... raccoon, dog, monkey.... yea if they all do, i do... think rock having a soul. non living object. life from non living. carbon is one of the main elements within living objects no? one time i heard carbon fell from a star onto our little planet. its just weird if you link carbon to living or non living things. maybe souls are created from carbon too  .... wait there's my soul
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"Don't just do something, stand there!" -Mr. Rabbit-
Breadnbutterfly
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