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 johnm214
 
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,297
Loc: Americas
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 Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?)  1
#15758818 - 02/04/12 01:12 AM (3 months, 23 days ago) |
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Should a candidate's religious convictions matter to the public? Should Romney's?
I argue yes. I see no reason to treat a candidate's religious views differently from any other views they may have. I wouldn't vote for a candidate that said blacks were evil and cursed by god, and I don't see a difference whether that's a religious view or not.
I find it troubling and difficult to incorporate Romney's claim that he is a Mormon and yet he would not let the Church govern his decisions (however he said it). Either he believes these crazy stories or he doesn't. How do you claim to believe that the word of god is such and such but that you'll disregard god and actually work against him?
The same questions are raised about a number of other candidates who belong to a faith that has clear non-negotiable positions that can be attributed to the candidate by their professed membership in the faith: Obama, Bachman, and so on.
It almost seems as if the public misses what I think is the appropriate message of tolerance: that you shouldn't be irrational and bigoted. This doesn't mean religion is safe from all critical inquiry, only that you shouldn't be xenophobic or irrationally opposed to someone for believing in some stupid nonsense similar to the stupid nonsense you yourself, or those you support, believe.
What do you say?
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 Othyem
Registered: 04/17/09
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: johnm214]
#15758879 - 02/04/12 01:50 AM (3 months, 23 days ago) |
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I personally could care less for the most part. I don't see Romney or most other candidates for that matter pushing there religions crazy bullshit that much. I mean aside from the abortion issue depending on how you look at it. There are obvious exceptions though, like Santorum for instance.
I'm a Paul supporter, do I think he is bat shit crazy in the religion department? Yes. Would it really have a negative effect on his decision making, I don't think so.
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TripsySmurf
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: Othyem]
#15758930 - 02/04/12 02:19 AM (3 months, 23 days ago) |
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I believe it depends on the candidate. If they have a record of voting for liberty it should not matter because they do not believe in forcing any aspects of there religion upon you. Every american president I have heard of claims one religious belief or another.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: Othyem]
#15758996 - 02/04/12 03:28 AM (3 months, 23 days ago) |
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> I personally could care less for the most part.
I think you mean you could not care less. If you could care less, then you currently care at least a bit.
> Should a candidate's religious convictions matter to the public?
It depends. If their religious beliefs influence how they govern, then yes, their religious convictions matter to the public. I'm using "influence how they govern" to mean "force their religious based moral beliefs upon me".
> How do you claim to believe that the word of god is such and such but that you'll disregard god and actually work against him?
Exactly the point I was trying to make. As long as the President accepts that his job is to represent all of the People, and to protect their right to believe whatever they want to believe, then I am happy. When the President decides that he is a tool of god, and that his duty is to shove gods will down my throat, then I get upset. I don't mind the "God Bless America" sound bites, or the like, but I have a real hard time with "drugs need to be illegal because they are a tool of the Devil!" type of crap.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy
Registered: 05/21/02
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Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: Othyem]
#15760484 - 02/04/12 01:16 PM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Othyem said:
I personally could care less for the most part. I don't see Romney or most other candidates for that matter pushing there religions crazy bullshit that much. I mean aside from the abortion issue depending on how you look at it. There are obvious exceptions though, like Santorum for instance.
I'm a Paul supporter, do I think he is bat shit crazy in the religion department? Yes. Would it really have a negative effect on his decision making, I don't think so.
dont let the haircut fool you ..mitt romney is as much of religious nutfruit as michelle bachmann is...but he doesnt need a devil with this kind of god ..
http://www.alternet.org/news/153945/is_mitt_romney%27s_candidacy_part_of_%27the_eternal_plan%27_of_the_mormon_church_/
Quote:
A multibillion-dollar business empire that includes agribusiness, mining, insurance, electronic and print media, manufacturing, movie production, commercial real estate, defense contracting, retail stores and banking, the Mormon church has unprecedented economic and political power. Despite a solemn stricture against any act or tolerance of gambling, Mormons have been heavily invested and exceptionally influential in the Nevada gaming industry since the great expansion of modern Las Vegas in the 1950s. Valued for their unquestioning loyalty to authority as well as general sobriety — they are prohibited from imbibing in alcohol, tobacco or coffee — Mormons have long been recruited into top positions in government agencies and multinational corporations. They are prominent in such institutions as the CIA, FBI and the national nuclear weapons laboratories, giving the church a sphere of influence unlike any other American religion in the top echelons of government.
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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 zappaisgod
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: Annapurna1] 1
#15760591 - 02/04/12 01:42 PM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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Anybody who believes in god is a nutcase. I wouldn't bother getting wrapped up too much in the details since they are all absurd in one way or another.
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CaptainAmerica
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: zappaisgod]
#15760676 - 02/04/12 02:02 PM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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This video sums up what scares me about Romney and is much more important then his religious beliefs it shows him lying and that he does not follow the constitution or believe in liberty. It also shows him running when faced with a tough question. SHAME!
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: CaptainAmerica]
#15760716 - 02/04/12 02:10 PM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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When it comes down to Mittens and Obama who scares you more regarding the Constitution? And no, you do not get to say "neither".
By the way, I'm not wasting ten minutes of my life watching a fucking video from Adam Kokesh. Perhaps you could explain just what you think is improper and provide a link to something written.
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CaptainAmerica
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: zappaisgod]
#15761119 - 02/04/12 03:48 PM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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I will sum it up for you
Adam - "How important is the constitution in determining your platform?"
Romney - "It's critical, its, its the blueprint of the nation."
Adam - "Governor if the constitution is so important to you will you repeal the patriot act and the military detentions provision of the NDAA?" Spoken loud as hell
Romney runs away
Adam - "Governor if the constitution is so important to you will you repeal the patriot act and the military detentions provision of the NDAA?"
Romney runs away
Fanny May ruined Gingrich for me so I never even gave him a chance. Notice how he just started acting like he is a president going two terms? What a clown.
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CaptainAmerica
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: CaptainAmerica]
#15761129 - 02/04/12 03:51 PM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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You said Obama and Romney. My bad.
.....
I don't think this is a fair comparison. Obama has already shown his stripes as supreme commander while Romney hasn't had his shot yet. Both are scum bag liars so who knows what Romney is really capable of.
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Not Quite Social
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: zappaisgod]
#15761143 - 02/04/12 03:56 PM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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I respect folks of various beliefs and lack of belief. What I see is politicians who claim a religion and fail horribly and intentionally to adhere to and uphold their professed basic values by employing their office to wage war and serve monied interests and their own financial interests above all others. War (murder) and corruption (greed) are not Mormon or traditional Christian values, just the opposite. So, my answer to your question, John, is the candidates' religions or moral philosophies ought to matter, foremost to them themselves.
[EDIT] Furthermore, when their actions and political postures are in conflict with their professed faith or philosophy, they should be ridiculed for what they are: frauds & hypocrites. The churches should freely & honestly provide this criticism rather than sit on their hands on the sidelines as most are wont to do.
Edited by Not Quite Social (02/04/12 05:26 PM)
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Othyem
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: Seuss]
#15761219 - 02/04/12 04:16 PM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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No, I'm sure I could care much less.
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: Othyem]
#15761571 - 02/04/12 05:39 PM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Othyem said:
No, I'm sure I could care much less.
So you're saying that you care a lot.
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Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
- Thomas Paine
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: CaptainAmerica]
#15761698 - 02/04/12 06:13 PM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
CaptainAmerica said:
I will sum it up for you
Adam - "How important is the constitution in determining your platform?"
Romney - "It's critical, its, its the blueprint of the nation."
Adam - "Governor if the constitution is so important to you will you repeal the patriot act and the military detentions provision of the NDAA?" Spoken loud as hell
Romney runs away
Adam - "Governor if the constitution is so important to you will you repeal the patriot act and the military detentions provision of the NDAA?"
Romney runs away
Fanny May ruined Gingrich for me so I never even gave him a chance. Notice how he just started acting like he is a president going two terms? What a clown.
There is nothing unconstitutional about the Patriot Act. Kokesh is an ignorant asshole.
Obama and the Democrat ilk are entirely responsible for Fannie and Freddie. What I will never forgive the Newt for is attacking Bain Capital. Fuck him he sounds like Obama.
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DieCommie
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Posts: 22,835
Loc: Street of Dreams
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: johnm214]
#15761726 - 02/04/12 06:18 PM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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It absolutely does matter to me. Religious beliefs are core and fundamental to believers. Its not a realistic expectation to think that they can and will separate their religious beliefs. Why should they? They dont, and they wont. And that should be judged accordingly.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: DieCommie]
#15761731 - 02/04/12 06:20 PM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
It absolutely does matter to me. Religious beliefs are core and fundamental to believers. Its not a realistic expectation to think that they can and will separate their religious beliefs. Why should they? They dont, and they wont. And that should be judged accordingly.
So which flying spaghetti monster do you like?
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DieCommie
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: zappaisgod]
#15761747 - 02/04/12 06:24 PM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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You mean like which god do I like? None of them really. Being religious bodes against a candidate when I consider them.
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txlibertarian
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: johnm214]
#15762345 - 02/04/12 08:55 PM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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Of course. His religious affiliation explains why he wants to create a federal amendment on the subject of marriage - something the government really has no business regulating. Federal amendments are great when they suit your religious agenda to overrule everyone, aren't they?
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Not Quite Social
Back to work
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Loc: Midwest
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: txlibertarian]
#15762863 - 02/04/12 11:59 PM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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DieCommie,
I'm not trying to be lame, today.  I thought more about your criticism on another thread and in my (now opted out) rating, and it was justifed.
Anyway, if this is not too off topic, you said, "You mean like which god do I like? None of them really." To which I wonder, really? I'm not proselytizing, believe me--I'm agnostic (ha, ha), but I can find nothing with which to fault Jesus, and, in fact, I see a lot of good in his strict followers--if there were such a desciple-politician, I'd vote for him easily over all others (unless the Buddha were running, then I'd have to be more thoughtful about it). Not you, eh? Religion is a negative? Reminds me of Christopher Hitchens.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,297
Loc: Americas
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: Not Quite Social]
#15763064 - 02/05/12 01:47 AM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Anybody who believes in god is a nutcase. I wouldn't bother getting wrapped up too much in the details since they are all absurd in one way or another.
But while it doesn't neccesarily matter if someone has an irrational view, it does matter when they claim to follow a belief system that by definition and edict requires the followers to take certain positions and actions.
For example, some of the more bland protestant churches, say a baptist church, doesn't have much in the way of a belief system relevant to politics that could be inferred on a candidate. Contrast this with a catholic. Someone who tells you they are a catholic is saying that they believe you are going to hell, that contraception is evil, and that it is a duty from god to oppose contraception and all manner of other things, from gay marriage to divorce, to whatnot. In this case, it is not simply an affiliation, but a creed and political position by definition. In fact, a candidate who disregards many of these teachings is actually automatically or procedurally excommunicated, and thus couldn't claim to be a Catholic. This is quite different from the baptist case where saying your one doesn't imply you'd try to jail people for buying a condom, or would violate the constitution to oppose abortion officially.
Mormonism is similar to the Catholic example in that there's a central authority that promulgates official doctrine, and amongst these is the acceptance of Joseph Smith's words as from God, including the position that blacks are cursed by god and descended from a line of sin stretching to antiquity (as well as that a new testament was buried by god in upstate NY, lol). To this extent, the claim to be a faithful mormon does not simply mean they believe dumb things without evidence, it neccesarily provides information about their views. I would like to know how he feels about being a member of an officially racist organization and his duty to god/ Joe Smith.
He sure uses his faith to his benefit in press conferences and speeches, he can't hide behind some misplaced sense of tolerance.
Quote:
Not Quite Social said:
DieCommie,
Anyway, if this is not too off topic, you said, "You mean like which god do I like? None of them really." To which I wonder, really? I'm not proselytizing, believe me--I'm agnostic (ha, ha), but I can find nothing with which to fault Jesus, [...]
How do you justify that view?
A man who came to earth to institute Hellfire and eternal torture for millions of people is one you find no fault with? Does the notion of eternal torture of babies who never learned a language with which to hear the gospel, or the damning of people born in non-christian lands sound acceptable? (The Jews still hold that nonbelievers and non-jews can find favor with god by being just, but Jesus abolished any thought of such a rational judgment)
For all the nastiness of the old testmanet and the Jewish tradition, there was no hell and no torture of the deceased. I suspect your view of Jesus is derived more from propoganda than from an actual reading of the bible.
Some of Jesus's messages of Peace:
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matt 10:34
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. Luke 12:51
Beyond that, Jesus was god (or something like that, depends on which part of the bible you read)- the same god that ordered genocide, rape, and countless misery.
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EndTyranny
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: zappaisgod]
#15763194 - 02/05/12 04:10 AM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
There is nothing unconstitutional about the Patriot Act. Kokesh is an ignorant asshole.
Zappaisgod why is every single thing you say horribly wrong? you are the most misinformed person I have ever met. You attack everyone from your horribly ignorant point of view. You have been proven to not understand shit about the fed all along trashing Paul supporters who are against it. Now it's proven you know NOTHING about the constitution while trashing Adam Kokesh for supporting it! Congrats, you are the most ignorant hater I have ever came across!
http://www.scn.org/ccapa/pa-vs-const.html
Lets pretend we are light bulbs! The dimmer bulbs would naturally be ignored more... o how I wish we were light bulbs.
Edited by EndTyranny (02/05/12 04:19 AM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: txlibertarian]
#15763474 - 02/05/12 07:29 AM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
txlibertarian said:
Of course. His religious affiliation explains why he wants to create a federal amendment on the subject of marriage - something the government really has no business regulating. Federal amendments are great when they suit your religious agenda to overrule everyone, aren't they?
I agree that the federal government has no business regulating marriage except to oversee civil disputes regarding the dissolution of the contract. Nor is marriage a religious construct. It is a contract between two people. Even atheists get married.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: EndTyranny]
#15763480 - 02/05/12 07:31 AM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
EndTyranny said:
Quote:
There is nothing unconstitutional about the Patriot Act. Kokesh is an ignorant asshole.
Zappaisgod why is every single thing you say horribly wrong? you are the most misinformed person I have ever met. You attack everyone from your horribly ignorant point of view. You have been proven to not understand shit about the fed all along trashing Paul supporters who are against it. Now it's proven you know NOTHING about the constitution while trashing Adam Kokesh for supporting it! Congrats, you are the most ignorant hater I have ever came across!
http://www.scn.org/ccapa/pa-vs-const.html
Lets pretend we are light bulbs! The dimmer bulbs would naturally be ignored more... o how I wish we were light bulbs.
And here we have a sitting SCOTUS justice flaming little old me.
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cinic
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: zappaisgod]
#15763502 - 02/05/12 07:40 AM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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YES it should matter.
Would you ever vote for a muslim??
Well I sure as hell would not,
lets keep these crazies out of
the office before we DO get a muslim.
NOT A GOOD IDEA PEOPLE!!!
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: cinic]
#15763540 - 02/05/12 07:54 AM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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What fresh puppet is this?
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DieCommie
El Guapo
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Posts: 22,835
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: Not Quite Social]
#15764532 - 02/05/12 01:11 PM (3 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said:
Anyway, if this is not too off topic, you said, "You mean like which god do I like? None of them really." To which I wonder, really? I'm not proselytizing, believe me--I'm agnostic (ha, ha), but I can find nothing with which to fault Jesus, and, in fact, I see a lot of good in his strict followers--if there were such a desciple-politician, I'd vote for him easily over all others (unless the Buddha were running, then I'd have to be more thoughtful about it). Not you, eh? Religion is a negative? Reminds me of Christopher Hitchens.
"God is not great"? Yea, I agree with that. Im not a fan of Jesus or his followers either. The less of a follower of Jesus or other false prophets the politician is the better.
I had no idea what kind of faith the person I will probably vote for is. I looked it up its non-practicing lutheren. Meh, could be better but could be worse.
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Not Quite Social
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: DieCommie]
#15764862 - 02/05/12 02:46 PM (3 months, 21 days ago) |
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Well, this is a little off topic, but since it's your thread ... Okay.
You said,
"I suspect your view of Jesus is derived more from propoganda than from an actual reading of the bible."
I think you and I are going to have a very similar problem with The Bible to that which we had with The Consititution. I object to your literal interpretation. Neither document is merely fixed words on paper. Lots of things matter including current application, historical/original context, interpretations and misinterpretations, traditions, and so on. Nobody is a first century Middle Easterner here, so nobody can understand and abide by the Bible as if he were; on that basis alone, no one can possibly lead life literally according to every specific part of The Bible--those societies do not exist anymore. So, taking very specific passages out of the original context is an easy way to criticize the Bible, but not a credible way of actually understanding how people were informed by it then or how people are informed by it now, or of representing the value of Christianity as a broader whole. I won't hope you'll appreciate my argument because I am convinced if you (or anyone) do not understand these things implicitly, if I have to spell it out, then it's too much trouble for me to try to disabuse you; therefore, you will continue to ironically and incorrectly find fault with my comprehension--Oh well.
Besides all that, why do you suppose so many millions of people go to church on Sundays and worship the vicious, nasty horrible god you described? Have you ever had a conversation with a Jesuit priest, for example, and walked away from him thinking, what a deluded, unstudied moron? Do you think rational, moral people cannot be or would never choose to be Christians?
Again, this was off topic, but you opened it up in this direction, and I was willing to discuss this so I hope it's not a problem. I'm making an effort to be more positive & constructive with my comments, to make the GOD & MODERATOR ZEUSS happy.
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Edited by Not Quite Social (02/05/12 05:50 PM)
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: Not Quite Social] 1
#15764984 - 02/05/12 03:17 PM (3 months, 21 days ago) |
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> why do you suppose so many millions of people go to church on Sundays and worship the vicious, nasty horrible god you described?
Because they are gullible idiots. Same reason so many people voted for Obama... or Bush for that matter.
> Have you ever had a conversation with a Jesuit priest, for example, and walked away from him thinking, what a deluded, unstudied moron?
Yep. Actually, no... he was very bright and well studied, but he was still an idiot for basing his beliefs on some 2000+ year old fictional literature.
> Do you think rational, moral people cannot be or would never choose to be Christians?
Obviously they can. However, I would call their belief irrational. I also call atheists irrational. Truth is, we simply don't know. Nobody has proven true or false. The only sensible position is to remain neutral (agnostic)... I'll believe it when I see it, but until then, given a lack of evidence, I will side with the most likely doesn't exist.
> Again, this was off topic,
Not as off topic as you think... religion is a big part of politics, unfortunately.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Shroominati
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Re: Does a candidate's religion matter? Romney's? (should it?) [Re: Seuss]
#15767169 - 02/06/12 03:11 AM (3 months, 21 days ago) |
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In the GOP Nevada primary on saturday, Romney came in first with 50% and Paul in third with 19%. Romney got 88% of the Mormon vote. This shows that a minor religion will side with a candidate based almost entirely off religion. That scares me. Paul got 54% of the non-religious vote. As a supporter I am very proud of that figure. I find non-religious people tend to use reason and fact when making their decisions.
In general I believe candidates often use religion to draw in votes. Some are sincere some are not. To answer the thread, I don't think its their religion that should matter as much as how religious they are.
I'd absolutely love to see a politician running ahead in the polls come out and say "God doesn't exist" and see how far he plummets because too many stupid people vote.
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