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 naum
Registered: 10/09/07
Posts: 1,798
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 Brainstorming Brewing Setup - BIAB 1
#15727263 - 01/27/12 09:20 PM (3 months, 30 days ago) |
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I've been making wines, ciders, and meads for a while now so I know many of the basics. I've brewed with friends several times doing extract, partial, and AG brews.
I've been wanting to start brewing beer by myself for ages, but I'm a purist at heart and I could never bring myself to do extract brews. I wanted to start with AG, but due to a lack of space, equipment, and money I've always considered it a non-possibility until I'm more settled down.
I recently came across the Brew In A Bag again and decided to take a closer look at it. The simplicity and more importantly single-pot aspect make it extremely appealing.
Due to thermal efficiency issues and the rising cost of propane I'd love to go electric, but I don't have access to 240V here and I doubt I will for the next several years. This leaves me with the option of going for a dual 120V setup, but even that would be kind of a pain here. So it looks like electric is out for now except possibly using a PID coupled heat stick to maintain a more consistent mash temperature and possibly twin heat sticks for the boil.
I already have a decent propane burner, several propane tanks, and a partially enclosed area outside with a joist above where I'd be brewing. I've got all of the makings of a counter flow wort chiller in my scrap bin. So the only costs I'd have to go propane fired BIAB would be the kettle, the bag, a couple of pulleys, a clip, and some sort of pivot for swinging the bag out of the way for a partial BIAB-sparge in a small stock pot if I wished. It looks like I could pick up a 15.5 gallon converted keg kettle with a welded 1/2" NPT port for just over $100 which is cheap from what I can tell. And I should be able to convert to electric in the future or build heat sticks if I so desire.
Am I missing anything? Any hints or advice on BIAB AG brewing?
Edit: Oh right and to keep things simple I'll be pump-less so CFC to fermenter path will be gravity fed. And I plan on doing 5-6 gallons batches at first with my sight set on 10 gallon batches in the future.
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 geokills
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Registered: 05/08/01
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 Re: Brainstorming Brewing Setup - BIAB [Re: naum]
#15729958 - 01/28/12 03:17 PM (3 months, 30 days ago) |
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I have been doing Brew-In-A-Bag for a little while now while I continue to assemble my electric brewery (estimated first brew session on that will probably be in April). BIAB is a great way to go for a minimalistic all grain setup. But keep in mind that even with a "sparge dip" into a second pot of water, your efficiency will probably be around 55 - 60%. If you don't sparge at all, it will of course be even lower. Nevertheless, I'd much rather use a BIAB system for home brew purposes even if it means spending a little more on scaling up my ingredients, than go back to extract. Even with the scaled up ingredients, it's at least the same price as an equivalent extract brew, and often a little bit cheaper.
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naum
Registered: 10/09/07
Posts: 1,798
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Re: Brainstorming Brewing Setup - BIAB [Re: geokills]
#15730344 - 01/28/12 04:39 PM (3 months, 30 days ago) |
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Thanks for the input, geokills. I figured you'd chime in.
So all of that those claims of on various homebrew forums about 70-85% efficiency is simply noise? I'd be happy with 50-60% instead of the 65%-70% I used for my calculations even though the ingredient cost is a little higher. I don't drink that much or have friends who do except a few holidays a year so the cost/space of acquiring and storing equipment is a bigger issue. From pricing things out locally and online all of the recipes I've compiled to start with would be significantly cheaper than extract. I'll probably keep a bit of DME or LME on hand in case I don't quite hit the OG I'm looking for. I take it I should get my own grain mill too at some point soon too?
If I had the spare cash and at this point more importantly space I'd go HERMS in a heartbeat especially since I could build a lot of parts out of scientific equipment scrap I have lying around. But for now and since I might find myself a constant traveler in the next few years it'd be nice to experiment with more low-tech methods. Glad to know you've had success with it.
I wish I'd known about BIAB and "no chill" brewing back during my undergraduate and graduate years. I could have been experimenting with 3 gallon batches for ages now.
Maybe I'll see what I can do with and AA921, a pain strainer, and other mycology equipment, and post a tutorial for an APA.
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geokills
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Re: Brainstorming Brewing Setup - BIAB [Re: naum]
#15733365 - 01/29/12 11:09 AM (3 months, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
naum said:
So all of that those claims of on various homebrew forums about 70-85% efficiency is simply noise?
You could hit those numbers if you rig up a good sparge process on your brew in a bag system. However, I just sparge "dipped" into a second vessel of heated water, and don't actually trickle or recirculate the wort/sparge water, which results in the 55 - 60% efficiency.
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funkyfish77
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Re: Brainstorming Brewing Setup - BIAB [Re: geokills]
#15749508 - 02/01/12 08:50 PM (3 months, 25 days ago) |
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I'm a beer brewer to guys . I've been doing biab for about a year now and its helped me
Learn the variation in grains and just a better knowledge of beer an what goes into making it.
I still do extract brews sometime for parties an sutch. But I personally like all grain brews gives
The brewer more control over the final product. Are y'all doing full boils or partial? Its nice to know there are brewers here.
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geokills
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 Re: Brainstorming Brewing Setup - BIAB [Re: funkyfish77]
#15749854 - 02/01/12 10:14 PM (3 months, 25 days ago) |
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Full boil all the way... max isomerization of alpha acids baby!  I'm actually planning on starting a brewpub circa 2015-2018 in Santa Cruz. Building a 11000 (5500 x 2) watt temperature/pump controlled 20 gallon tri-steel-kettle rig at the moment to be used with MoreBeer 14gal "Ultimate Conicals" for fermentation; first brew on the new system slated for this very April... and I am excited! 
Here's my backyard dispensing rig I put together only a few months after starting to homebrew, now a li'l o'er a year ago: So I've Been Getting Into Home Brewing...
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tdmm
Stranger
Registered: 10/07/11
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Re: Brainstorming Brewing Setup - BIAB [Re: geokills]
#15784741 - 02/09/12 04:06 PM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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Yeah I think you should anticipate about 55-60% efficiency, even with a long drip sparge. Stir like crazy, and then stir some more, and when you're done, stir another 5 minutes. I would also let my bag drain into a turkey fry pan while the wort was boiling to collect a little extra, and I would barely hit 60% most of the time.
Your ability to make high gravity beers will thus be affected by the size of your kettle. There comes a point where your water to grain ratio becomes saturated and adding more grains just screws things up. I found I still needed to use 1-2lbs of DLME and/or dextrose for beers above 1.060, using a 7.5gal kettle.
That being said, my beers improved dramatically when I went from extract to BIAB. Go ahead and do it, it's a great step while you work on getting a more conventional AG setup going.
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tdmm
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Re: Brainstorming Brewing Setup - BIAB [Re: tdmm]
#15784762 - 02/09/12 04:09 PM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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Also i do NOT recommend 15.5gal keggles! I bought one, used it once, and immediately sold it on craigslist. Then I spent the same amount of money on a 10gal stainless pot with a false bottom and valve and I'm waaaaaay happier.
Keggles are incredibly heavy, especially with water/grains/wort in them. They don't hold temps very well. You can't see inside while the worts boiling because the opening at the top usually has a lip that kind of captures the evaporate and prevents it from wafting out. And they leak.
The exception might be if you're planning on doing 10gal batches. But with 5gal batches, you'll never be able to keep your temp up during the mash without adding heat, which can scorch your grains.
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naum
Registered: 10/09/07
Posts: 1,798
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Re: Brainstorming Brewing Setup - BIAB [Re: tdmm]
#15784809 - 02/09/12 04:18 PM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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Hey, I was about to post!
So I gave this a whirl the other night. I used this recipe[www.biabrewer.info] as a starting point. Grain bill was the same. I tried to keep things as simple/cheap as possible and use no additional equipment than what I had, but I ended up buying a 20 L stock pot from Family Dollar and a voille curtain from there too for $20.
I milled the grain in a blender. I mashed for 100 min with stirring in 20 min intervals. I pressed the grain out between two stacking metal strainers I used to use for drying grain. I then did a 2x dunk sparge at 170 F with 2 L of pH 5.6 RO water for 10 min and pressing each time. Then I did a 90 min boil.
OG on 60 F wort I reserved for the starter this morning was 1.056 which using the total volume of wort I collected makes my efficiency upwards of 82%. I no-chilled the wort in a 5 gallon corny keg which I'll be doing the primary fermentation in as well.
I'll let you know how it turns out.
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tdmm
Stranger
Registered: 10/07/11
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Re: Brainstorming Brewing Setup - BIAB [Re: naum]
#15784829 - 02/09/12 04:22 PM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
naum said:
I pressed the grain out between two stacking metal strainers I used to use for drying grain.
I think you'll want to avoid this step in the future. You can extract some unfavorable tannins by pressing your grains.
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/squeezing-grain-bag-bad-175179/
Congrats on the high efficiency though!
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naum
Registered: 10/09/07
Posts: 1,798
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Re: Brainstorming Brewing Setup - BIAB [Re: tdmm]
#15784872 - 02/09/12 04:30 PM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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I was planning on a keggle because eventually for another hobby I'd like to have the ability to do larger volume (at least 7.5-8 gallon) mashes. So I'd need to buy a 15 gallon kettle which is much more expensive than a converted keg.
From what I've read a keg retains heat much better than a kettle, and from my experience bringing kegs up to temperature and letting them cool I believe it. As such they kegs have a serious advantage for BIAB especially eBIAB.
Did you keggle have weldless fittings? If so I suspect that's why it leaked. I use kegs for another hobby and they never ever leak on me and if they did it would be disastrous. The keggles I can get "locally" are TIG-welded and have the entire top cut out with a plasma cutter so there is no lip like you describe--though I've seen the lip you are talking about on many keggles. And the scorching problem is solved as simply as using a false bottom, no?
I re-heated my mash last night and I just used a strainer with 1 cm legs that just fit inside the pot as a false bottom. It worked brilliantly.
But thanks for the input. I'll consider it when I have the cash to look at equipment for bigger batches. For now I'll be doing 2.5-3 gallon batches. Since I'm the only one drinking my stuff for the most part it makes more sense to do lots of batches to get the hang of things and experiment with different grains, hops, yeast, water chemistry, and timing.
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naum
Registered: 10/09/07
Posts: 1,798
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Re: Brainstorming Brewing Setup - BIAB [Re: tdmm]
#15784901 - 02/09/12 04:39 PM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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Ah, yes the tannin-squeeze debate. It looks like it's highly contested and my chemistry/biochemistry/enology background sides with the tannin extraction is a function of water chemistry/temperature/contact time. I didn't detect and noticeable tannin notes when I tasted the wort this morning or sparge runnings last night. Additional proteins can come out through squeezing though so I am slightly worried about having a cloudy beer, but the wort I used for the starter seemed pretty clear. We'll see. 
Thanks for the advice.
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