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 OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor
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 Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell
#15712591 - 01/24/12 04:21 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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Evidence that consciousness is generated by the brain:
1. It develops gradually as the brain develops
2. It ceases during dreamless sleep
3. It ceases during most comas
4. It is affected, even changed significantly, by damage to the brain due to physical trauma, chemical agents or aging.
5. It ends at death.
Evidence that consciousness can exist independantly of the brain:
1. Some unsubstantiated anecdotes, wishful thinking and a shelf-load of New Age books.
Hmmm, which makes more sense?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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 4896744
Small Town Girl
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Live your Life! 
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DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
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Evidence its not a function of other body parts comes from amputations, organ removal/exchange and the like.
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4896744
Small Town Girl
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Another thing suggesting consciousness is a property of the brain is that different chemicals which bond to different receptors in the brain change our consciousness.
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Live your Life!
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tribesman
Knew it all along
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...and what exactly is 'the brain' ?, and what is it that it is doing ?
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4896744
Small Town Girl
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 Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: tribesman] 1
#15712805 - 01/24/12 05:07 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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It's the organ in your skull. It is processing information that it receives from sensory organs and creates memories and thoughts/feelings associated with said memories based on the patterns it has recorded through experience and its pre-existing structure. It uses past patterns to recognize the need for future patterns to maintain survival and/or reach other goals.
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Live your Life!
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Gnome_Zen
YoungMind
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: 4896744]
#15712848 - 01/24/12 05:13 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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the contious and subcontious are so beyond how we can even precieve it i dont think we will ever uncover the source of where it comes from besides the fact that they might not be on the molecular level but the atomic level who knows it could be magic.
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Find your enlightenment. Mine is Psychedelics.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,604
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Evidence that consciousness is generated by the brain:
1. It develops gradually as the brain develops
2. It ceases during dreamless sleep
3. It ceases during most comas
4. It is affected, even changed significantly, by damage to the brain due to physical trauma, chemical agents or aging.
5. It ends at death.
Evidence that consciousness can exist independantly of the brain:
1. Some unsubstantiated anecdotes, wishful thinking and a shelf-load of New Age books.
Hmmm, which makes more sense?
It's a tie.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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tribesman
Knew it all along
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Gnome_Zen]
#15712865 - 01/24/12 05:17 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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Could it be magic ? 
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Gnome_Zen
YoungMind
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Loc: Where the two moden day p...
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: tribesman]
#15712993 - 01/24/12 05:47 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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its magic definately magic because where is the thought coming from besides we dont know shit about the brain its the most complicated reality/universe weve ever incountered OrgoneConclusion is bullshit.
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Find your enlightenment. Mine is Psychedelics.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
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i argued for days trying to make this clear to a couple of shroomerites. although i agree with you and it is quite obvious that consciousness is dependent on matter but the idealist philosophical stance does hold up to reasoning. for example, an idealist philosopher might say that no where in the brain is there the experience of red. it doesn't matter how much we know about neuro-circuitry. this will never explain the experience of red and you have to admit they have a point.
this is why i like the non-reductionist physicalist stance, which holds that physics and brain science do explain consciousness but the language games used to express experience should not be discarded (as if they could) because they are useful in explaining the nature of experience.
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"The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic ideas (the characterological lie about reality) and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels lost. And this is the simple truth - that to live is to feel lost - he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked." - Ernest Becker
Edited by blingbling (01/24/12 06:04 PM)
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Gnome_Zen
YoungMind
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Loc: Where the two moden day p...
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: blingbling]
#15713103 - 01/24/12 06:10 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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but then when you think of matter matter is just electrochemical reactions in the brain from our senses. so we think. so it then bounces back to the brain but could we all just be an inner contious mind just floating in space and were just an illusion of what is persieved though this collective contious whole. Its an endless illusion that will never be resolved or solved.
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Find your enlightenment. Mine is Psychedelics.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Gnome_Zen]
#15713371 - 01/24/12 06:58 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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but then when you think of matter matter is just electrochemical reactions in the brain from our senses.
that's what some of matter is
so it then bounces back to the brain but could we all just be an inner contious mind just floating in space and were just an illusion of what is persieved though this collective contious whole.
you forget that consciousness ends with death therefor it is dependent on the structure of matter. there is no difference between saying that consciousness is floating around somewhere but comes back to the relation between the nervous system and it's environment (matter and matter) and saying consciousness is dependent on matter. as soon as you admit that consciousness is dependent on the brain you admit that is material.
Its an endless illusion that will never be resolved or solved.
your starting to get to where i've landed in my idea of reality. i think reality itself is incomplete. it's not that we are not smart enough to figure it out but instead that there are fundamental parts of reality that are missing. this is hard to grasp because if reality is incomplete then we would assume that it would fall apart and yet it doesn't. imo to be a true materialist you have to admit that reality is a non-all. it's not that there's some spiritual realm that makes quantum mechanics and consciousness work. it's that for reality to function it doesn't need all the pieces to the puzzle.
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"The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic ideas (the characterological lie about reality) and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels lost. And this is the simple truth - that to live is to feel lost - he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked." - Ernest Becker
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tribesman
Knew it all along
Registered: 11/19/11
Posts: 395
Loc: fixed in it's gaze
Last seen: 11 days, 19 hours
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Is the sentience that develops as an emergent property of the brain,
able to comprehend it's 'own' nature fully ?
I remember your thread about the fish bowl, and the difficulty in gaining a tangential dimension to our perspective that would allow us to know our nature
in totality and with clarity.
So you see, I think it's a little early to be counting your chickens.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: tribesman]
#15713713 - 01/24/12 08:02 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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One chicken brain
Two chicken brains
Three chicken brains...
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This is your drain on brugs.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 1,389
Last seen: 18 hours, 57 minutes
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four chicken brains...
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"The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic ideas (the characterological lie about reality) and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels lost. And this is the simple truth - that to live is to feel lost - he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked." - Ernest Becker
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Samurai Drifter
Wandering Mindfuck
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 5,042
Loc: Frosted
Last seen: 2 days, 2 hours
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Evidence that consciousness is generated by the brain:
1. It develops gradually as the brain develops
2. It ceases during dreamless sleep
3. It ceases during most comas
4. It is affected, even changed significantly, by damage to the brain due to physical trauma, chemical agents or aging.
5. It ends at death.
Evidence that consciousness can exist independantly of the brain:
1. Some unsubstantiated anecdotes, wishful thinking and a shelf-load of New Age books.
Hmmm, which makes more sense?
None of that suggests consciousness is produced by the brain; rather, that consciousness is the operation of the brain.
And that's not just a word-game. Being imprecise with language is the root of basically all philosophical problems.
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The obstacle is the path.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: blingbling]
#15713738 - 01/24/12 08:08 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said:
four chicken brains...
Now you confused me and I lost count and hasta start all over. 
One chicken brain...
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This is your drain on brugs.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Evidence that consciousness is generated by the brain:
1. It develops gradually as the brain develops
2. It ceases during dreamless sleep
3. It ceases during most comas
4. It is affected, even changed significantly, by damage to the brain due to physical trauma, chemical agents or aging.
5. It ends at death.
Evidence that consciousness can exist independantly of the brain:
1. Some unsubstantiated anecdotes, wishful thinking and a shelf-load of New Age books.
Hmmm, which makes more sense?
None of that suggests consciousness is produced by the brain; rather, that consciousness is the operation of the brain.
And that's not just a word-game. Being imprecise with language is the root of basically all philosophical problems.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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OverStoned
Tripper
Registered: 04/18/10
Posts: 288
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Heard of hydrocephalus??
from http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/science/is_the_brain_really_necessary.htm :
Later, a colleague at Sheffield University became aware of a young man with a larger than normal head. He was referred to Lorber even though it had not caused him any difficulty. Although the boy had an IQ of 126 and had a first class honours degree in mathematics, he had "virtually no brain". A noninvasive measurement of radio density known as CAT scan showed the boy's skull was lined with a thin layer of brain cells to a millimeter in thickness. The rest of his skull was filled with cerebrospinal fluid. The young man continues a normal life with the exception of his knowledge that he has no brain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocephalus
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 IT'S ALL TOO MUCH
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Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
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Posts: 4,198
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: 4896744]
#15736298 - 01/29/12 10:46 PM (3 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
iThink said:
It's the organ in your skull. It is processing information that it receives from sensory organs and creates memories and thoughts/feelings associated with said memories based on the patterns it has recorded through experience and its pre-existing structure. It uses past patterns to recognize the need for future patterns to maintain survival and/or reach other goals.
It does all that, but that's not consciousness. That is, there is an experience and there is awareness of the experience. At what point in a machine's evolution would it know it exists? It can receive, manipulate, and transmit, but how does it know it is doing these things?
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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Samurai Drifter
Wandering Mindfuck
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 5,042
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Rahz]
#15736341 - 01/29/12 11:01 PM (3 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
It does all that, but that's not consciousness. That is, there is an experience and there is awareness of the experience. At what point in a machine's evolution would it know it exists? It can receive, manipulate, and transmit, but how does it know it is doing these things?
When its symbolic model of the world built from sensory information processing becomes so advanced that the it includes a model of its self.
Also, what is "awareness of the experience" and, if it's a necessary and sufficient condition for consciousness, then what of awareness of awareness (and so on to infinity)?
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The obstacle is the path.
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Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
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I'm not talking about being able to make models of the self, I'm talking about plain old consciousness. Not saying is isn't a matter of form and physics, but I'm not sure it will ever be found to be a discrete function of the brain. Images of the self coming into awareness requires a brain, but is that the modus operandi of consciousness?
If a tree falls in the woods, what makes the noise a sound? The ear and the brain right? But that's just a bunch of shaking hairs, vibrating bones, and biochemical/electrical reactions. There is an experience, but why are we aware of it? We like to think there's a difference between ourselves and jellyfish when it comes to consciousness, but what makes us so sure?
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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circastes
i did it for tha bliss
Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 3,585
Loc: 
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Rahz]
#15736659 - 01/30/12 12:26 AM (3 months, 28 days ago) |
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Haha my sons, you have no clue.
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Find me in the backyard, sailing my kettle. Playing poker with insects, wearing a cup of tea. A hat of brimstone, yellow-crimson, looking like a giant flea. Forever my friend: so my energy this day I lend, I practice faking it to pretend, and become the actor in the end. My folly hangs on the trees like leaves and drips in the falling breeze, the tock of a minute here shakes me to my knees.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: circastes]
#15736796 - 01/30/12 01:47 AM (3 months, 28 days ago) |
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We like to think there's a difference between ourselves and jellyfish when it comes to consciousness, but what makes us so sure?
both jellyfish and humans are conscious but i think it's pretty safe to say that a jellyfish doesn't objectify itself the way a human does.
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"The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic ideas (the characterological lie about reality) and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels lost. And this is the simple truth - that to live is to feel lost - he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked." - Ernest Becker
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Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
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Last seen: 3 hours, 6 minutes
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: blingbling]
#15736826 - 01/30/12 02:15 AM (3 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
i think it's pretty safe to say that a jellyfish doesn't objectify itself the way a human does.
No disagreement there, but this creates the notion that there is no specific brain part that is responsible for consciousness.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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cateyes
Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 2,753
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Evidence that consciousness is generated by the brain:
Quote:
1. It develops gradually as the brain develops
this is really hard to determine. it's true that a child will develop a sense of self awareness when they look into a mirror during a spcific stage of development but a child can suck a nipple on day one. is this just insticnt? what is instinct? maybe it's a level of developed consciousness. something inborn and fully in place before birth just waiting to kick in. i'll agree that it may have developed but you can't say it wasn't always there and waiting for memories to form to begin to make connections.
Quote:
2. It ceases during dreamless sleep
what is dreamless sleep? the period between dreams? they are saying that there is a direct connection between upper consciousness, which goes IDLE during sleep and the subconscious, upper consciousness is still aware. have you ever turned on a light in a room when someone is sleeping and they wake up? that's light passing through closed eye lids stimulating the retina and the conscious mind senses it. or a noise or a smell? we had this conversation in another forum and i thought about taste and one day i asked my wife to place a few drops of lemon juice on my tongue if she ever found me asleep. i actually made it easy on her by putting lemon juice in a dixie cup with an eye dropper and sure as shit, not only did i start to make a sour face, i woke up. and we both laughed our fucking assess off. and why does the upper mind sense this? i tickled my wife's face with a feather from her pillow when she was asleep and she brushed my hand away almost immediately. or is it the subconscious mind that senses it? no way man, in my opinion it's the upper mind that does this, the sub mind is something totally different. but this is just mine as well as thousands of others who are trained to study the mind
Quote:
3. It ceases during most comas
brain activity ceases... we have no way of measuring consciousness. even the greatest minds in the world have said this and you are positive this isn't so. this is groundbreaking information... who would have thought hat consciousness would have been all figured out by some dude on a mushroom server. what about that thread in spirituality on an atheist physicist who described near death juts as others did. i'll find the thread if you need to see it. it's a Utube video
4. It is affected, even changed significantly, by damage to the brain due to physical trauma, chemical agents or aging.
Quote:
5. It ends at death.
well when someone comes back from death and says it ends i'll believe it but until then i'll rely on the NDE's reported, again, some of these reports have been by atheists. i belong to the Monroe institute as part of buying their hemi-sync CD's and i'm stunned at some of the reports from others... i've never purchased the out of body/NDE CD's yet so ai can't comment with authority, but these are educated men and women who are reporting this shit. i'm hoping to make it to one of their two week workshops one day... and you know what? they only charge for meals and the cost to pay the facilitators and in most cases the facilitators say screw paying me, so i'm not getting ripped off if i do decide to do this...
Quote:
Evidence that consciousness can exist independantly of the brain:
1. Some unsubstantiated anecdotes, wishful thinking and a shelf-load of New Age books.
some of the greatest philosophers in the world have thought about or are thinking about this and you seem to have it all figured out. out of the only two posts of yours that i've read you are bating 100% in relation to having things all figured out. you are mind blowing amazing really... do you get paid for being a philosopher? there are many who do so you know...
Quote:
Hmmm, which makes more sense?
i don't know, you tell me... you tell me what makes more sense and why because your examples were weak examples. you haven't convinced anyone who can think for themselves so please convince us. expand on your examples instead of making simple statements...
(edit) and i made it a point not it use gremlins this post in order to remove the air of comical inspection...
Kensho   <----- my brother from another planet...
Edited by cateyes (01/30/12 05:51 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,639
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: OverStoned]
#15737173 - 01/30/12 06:39 AM (3 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
OverStoned said:
Heard of hydrocephalus??
from http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/science/is_the_brain_really_necessary.htm :
Later, a colleague at Sheffield University became aware of a young man with a larger than normal head. He was referred to Lorber even though it had not caused him any difficulty. Although the boy had an IQ of 126 and had a first class honours degree in mathematics, he had "virtually no brain". A noninvasive measurement of radio density known as CAT scan showed the boy's skull was lined with a thin layer of brain cells to a millimeter in thickness. The rest of his skull was filled with cerebrospinal fluid. The young man continues a normal life with the exception of his knowledge that he has no brain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocephalus
the reporting on this article is ignorant.
The person actually had all the important parts of his brain - especially the crenelated cerebral cortex and all of it's connections intact.
The hydrocephalus condition is due to failure to drain fluid from the ventricles (in the brain) so these fluid chambers become proportionally larger.
The brain is still there and functional - though in some cases there are problems due to pressure in the head.
My father was hydrocephalus and so was a building inspector I knew in the old days, both annoyingly intelligent.
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Samurai Drifter
Wandering Mindfuck
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 5,042
Loc: Frosted
Last seen: 2 days, 2 hours
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Rahz]
#15737191 - 01/30/12 06:52 AM (3 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
No disagreement there, but this creates the notion that there is no specific brain part that is responsible for consciousness.
I don't see how it creates that notion. Jellyfish don't have brains at all.
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The obstacle is the path.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,639
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jellyfish may not have consciousness that is any more involved than plants, i.e. tropism or responses without memory planning or ideation.
our stream of consciousness (and that of other brainy animals) involves conditioned reaction contexts, in which relevance to the recent events (short term memory) is measured against longer term associations and sensory activity.
this is much richer than tropism and reflexes. Even the brain-dead exhibit some tropism and reflexes.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
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I still can see consciousness, under these conditions, as a 'thing' which is 'received/perceived' by the brain, not 'produced/generated'.
In fact I think it's a combination of both.
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Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
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Quote:
I don't see how it creates that notion. Jellyfish don't have brains at all.
Was replying to Blings comment that he thought jellyfish might be conscious in some way. Bad quoting.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Rahz]
#15741528 - 01/31/12 04:02 AM (3 months, 27 days ago) |
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Was replying to Blings comment that he thought jellyfish might be conscious in some way. Bad quoting.
jellyfish are conscious. i think you are confusing intelligence with consciousness.
cateyes said: is this just insticnt? what is instinct?
but then also said: something inborn and fully in place before birth just waiting to kick in.
why ask a question if you know the answer? i think sometimes you mystify the things your trying to explain.
we have no way of measuring consciousness.
i can tell the difference between a rock which is not conscious and a dog which is conscious
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"The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic ideas (the characterological lie about reality) and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels lost. And this is the simple truth - that to live is to feel lost - he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked." - Ernest Becker
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cateyes
Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 2,753
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 Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: blingbling]
#15741686 - 01/31/12 06:08 AM (3 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Quote:
blingbling said:
Was replying to Blings comment that he thought jellyfish might be conscious in some way. Bad quoting.
jellyfish are conscious. i think you are confusing intelligence with consciousness.
i didn't read the original quote nor care to so i'll agree with you on this one...
Quote:
cateyes said: is this just insticnt? what is instinct?
but then also said: something inborn and fully in place before birth just waiting to kick in.
why ask a question if you know the answer? i think sometimes you mystify the things your trying to explain.
i don't know the answer, hence the question... who's to say what we identify as instinct isn't some form of consciousness? i didn't answer my question and you certainly didn't shed some light on it for me either.
Quote:
we have no way of measuring consciousness.
i can tell the difference between a rock which is not conscious and a dog which is conscious
well sure, there is a huge difference between a rock and a dog. brilliant observation... but who's to say there isn't some level of consciousness involved in the forces that form the tight formation of atoms that form the rock? these are some of the quest5ions i believe new age believers ask. thjey try to think outside the box instead of breaking it down to the dog rock equation... can you explain these forces, i understand the scientific definition of them but why? like i said, i didn't answer my own question and you fell way short of the mark in my book...
Kensho <----- brother from another planet...
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Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: blingbling]
#15741966 - 01/31/12 08:48 AM (3 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Was replying to Blings comment that he thought jellyfish might be conscious in some way. Bad quoting.
jellyfish are conscious. i think you are confusing intelligence with consciousness.
No, I was agreeing with you.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,639
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Rahz]
#15743817 - 01/31/12 04:44 PM (3 months, 26 days ago) |
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I do not accept that life and reactivity itself is consciousness - I do not accept plants as conscious though I do respect the life in them - but it is not the same as consciousness - they do not and could not dream or trip for instance, they have no associative resonance.
when we perceive life let us call it life;
when we perceive reactions let us call that reactions;
and when we encounter streams of consciousness encompassing life, reactivity, memory and resonance, let us call the spade a spade.
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~~~~~
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: redgreenvines]
#15744091 - 01/31/12 05:45 PM (3 months, 26 days ago) |
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i don't know the answer, hence the question
you answered your own question.
who's to say what we identify as instinct isn't some form of consciousness?
imo instinct is something conscious entities poses not a different form of consciousness.
who's to say there isn't some level of consciousness involved in the forces that form the tight formation of atoms that form the rock?
the reason i believe that atomic structures are not conscious is because they show no agency. a plant grows towards the sun in order for it to thrive which shows agency. atomic structures do change to suit their environment but their movement is not directed at any goal.
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"The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic ideas (the characterological lie about reality) and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels lost. And this is the simple truth - that to live is to feel lost - he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked." - Ernest Becker
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Diploid
Cuban
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: blingbling]
#15744151 - 01/31/12 05:59 PM (3 months, 26 days ago) |
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a plant grows towards the sun in order for it to thrive which shows agency.
Fire goes after additional fuel and oxidizer in order to thrive and grow and reproduce. By your logic, fire is conscious, no? It clearly shows "agency".
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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DieCommie
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: blingbling] 1
#15744196 - 01/31/12 06:08 PM (3 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said:
the reason i believe that atomic structures are not conscious is because they show no agency. a plant grows towards the sun in order for it to thrive which shows agency. atomic structures do change to suit their environment but their movement is not directed at any goal.
Sure it is. At least, its just as much of a 'goal' as casting phototropism as a goal is. (I dont mind the anthropomorphism as long as we recognize that is what it is.) Atoms evolve according to specific rules towards specific states.
Looks to me that you are just cherry picking that which shows 'agency' to satisfy a belief towards nature worship. Tell me, what is the distinguishing characteristic of agency and why is making such a distinction important at all?
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: DieCommie]
#15744294 - 01/31/12 06:32 PM (3 months, 26 days ago) |
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My wind vane always points into the wind. Now I know it is conscious. 
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Gnome_Zen
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: DieCommie]
#15744321 - 01/31/12 06:38 PM (3 months, 26 days ago) |
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Everything is a collective contiousness, reality itself is a contiousness with it just being reality with it being us animals to plants, fungi and all atoms that make up this universe of reality. Down to the Atomic level all atoms interact and you can call that instinct but when looking at instinct all we are is an intelegent instinct. We eat, grow, have sex, communicate all it is, is intelgent instincts that keep us alive and growing we humans are the same as the single atom just intelegent.
EVERY THING IN REALITY IS CONTIOUS BECAUSE ITS IN REALITY and ITS precieving and recieving the reality around its self as reality.
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Find your enlightenment. Mine is Psychedelics.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Gnome_Zen]
#15744337 - 01/31/12 06:41 PM (3 months, 26 days ago) |
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I wish the spell-checker had consciousness...
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Gnome_Zen
YoungMind
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Gnome_Zen]
#15744369 - 01/31/12 06:46 PM (3 months, 26 days ago) |
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Everything is a collective contiousness, reality itself is a contiousness with it just being reality with it being us animals to plants, fungi and all atoms that make up this universe of reality. Down to the Atomic level all atoms interact and you can call that instinct but when looking at instinct all we are is an intelegent instinct. We eat, grow, have sex, communicate all it is, is intelgent instincts that keep us alive and growing we humans are the same as the single atom just intelegent.
EVERY THING IN REALITY IS CONTIOUS BECAUSE ITS IN REALITY and ITS precieving and recieving the reality around its self as reality.
Contiousness It has been defined as: subjectivity, awareness, the ability to experience or to feel, wakefulness, having a sense of selfhood. THE ATOM UNDERSTANDS WHEN TO BOND AND WHAT TO BOND TO SO IT FEELS AND ITS AWARE WHAT TO BOND TO. That sounds like it contious to me not intelgence but it is contious.
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Find your enlightenment. Mine is Psychedelics.
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Diploid
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Gnome_Zen]
#15744389 - 01/31/12 06:50 PM (3 months, 26 days ago) |
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EVERY THING IN REALITY IS CONTIOUS
No it's not.
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: redgreenvines]
#15744566 - 01/31/12 07:36 PM (3 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
I do not accept that life and reactivity itself is consciousness - I do not accept plants as conscious though I do respect the life in them - but it is not the same as consciousness - they do not and could not dream or trip for instance, they have no associative resonance.
when we perceive life let us call it life;
when we perceive reactions let us call that reactions;
and when we encounter streams of consciousness encompassing life, reactivity, memory and resonance, let us call the spade a spade.
Most of that is agreeable, but it doesn't prove anything. It is possible that human type consciousness is special to us by virtue of being human and having some neat feedback tools. It's unique enough in form, but is the uniqueness due to the humanness, or the consciousness? I don't accept that life itself is consciousness either, but I don't know it's not and I don't know where the difference arises if not.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
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Posts: 13,639
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Rahz]
#15746076 - 02/01/12 04:44 AM (3 months, 26 days ago) |
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The difference is certainly not a clear line drawn at the point where humanity begins since dogs are clearly conscious (full of ideas of what is fun and dreams hopes and failures), and it seems like fish may be as well, but certainly not plants.
I get frustrated with people that mix up the idea of life with a conjured "life force" and then apply that concept onto the word consciousness, simply because it fits their thinking of the thing - meantime it appears before them since they dreamed it up: it is just them thinking "life force" that produces this illusion of it in their own minds - a projection.
That is not to say that there can be no consciousness hidden in places we do not detect or that there is no life force that rages through some medium we do not connect with, but if these things exist they exist on planes that are separate from our ongoing existence, day to day, and I know of nobody that is the true ambassador from those places but many impostors have announced their candidacy.
We should keep our minds open. I want there to be more,but I don't want to be stupid about it, and that in itself may be enough.
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Mr.Monsanto
Trying to find the Way
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Evidence that consciousness is generated by the brain:
1. It develops gradually as the brain develops
2. It ceases during dreamless sleep
3. It ceases during most comas
4. It is affected, even changed significantly, by damage to the brain due to physical trauma, chemical agents or aging.
5. It ends at death.
Evidence that consciousness can exist independantly of the brain:
1. Some unsubstantiated anecdotes, wishful thinking and a shelf-load of New Age books.
Hmmm, which makes more sense?
I won't try to debate the 5 points you make but I just wanted to add something. Consciousness can't JUST be the result of your brain, it's inseperable from you as a whole. If you didn't have sensory organs and a functioning nervous system there would be NO thoughts to process. Going by the online definition of consciousness : con·scious·ness/ˈkänCHəsnəs/
Noun:
1.The state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings.
2.The awareness or perception of something by a person.
It is also safe to say that without an environment to perceive, consciousness also would not be able to exist. To say that the brain is the ONLY factor responsible for consciousness ignores all the other facets to existence in a living form. In my eyes the brain simply acts as the conductor for consciousness, as the maestro acts as a conductor for a whole orchestra. Without one the rest would simply be a mess.
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"Let me mention what I've been thinking
How to save the children, when the ship is sinking
So I'm singing, no lip syncing to slogans
Political hooligans with tanks, missiles and guns
Everything is relative when it's all in the family of man
Understand the time has finally come to realise the great power of one
All formulas equalise under the Sun, amen"
Nujabes & Shing.02
We have the power to change the world when we realize how powerful the hearts and minds of men truly are.
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Diploid
Cuban
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Mr.Monsanto]
#15747532 - 02/01/12 01:12 PM (3 months, 26 days ago) |
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If you didn't have sensory organs and a functioning nervous system there would be NO thoughts to process
I'm not convinced this is true. Why can't original thoughts develop ex nihilo in a brain absent external input? You seem to be drawing an arbitrary line.
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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Mr.Monsanto
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Diploid]
#15747979 - 02/01/12 03:18 PM (3 months, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
If you didn't have sensory organs and a functioning nervous system there would be NO thoughts to process
I'm not convinced this is true. Why can't original thoughts develop ex nihilo in a brain absent external input? You seem to be drawing an arbitrary line.
While it is an arbitrary line I find it to be based in fact. Going off the theory of tabula rasa (minus the natural instincts of eating and reproduction/ survival which wouldnt be present without the rest of your body) your brain would simply be a processor with nothing to process. You would have no language to think in, no pictures, no understanding of the external world with which to relate to. In essence you would be as close to dead as you could possibly get without meeting the clinical definition. To me at least, it seems that the mind and body are two parts to the same whole, neither of which could exist without the other. Consciousness, as we know it, would not be in existance without an environment and something to perceive it with. Im more curious to know what you think the content of thoughts would be if there was no stimulus to base it on.
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"Let me mention what I've been thinking
How to save the children, when the ship is sinking
So I'm singing, no lip syncing to slogans
Political hooligans with tanks, missiles and guns
Everything is relative when it's all in the family of man
Understand the time has finally come to realise the great power of one
All formulas equalise under the Sun, amen"
Nujabes & Shing.02
We have the power to change the world when we realize how powerful the hearts and minds of men truly are.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,226
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Mr.Monsanto]
#15748063 - 02/01/12 03:36 PM (3 months, 25 days ago) |
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You would have no language to think in
Language isn't necessary for thought. I think abstractly without language all the time. Lower animals who don't possess language nevertheless demonstrate thinking and intelligence.
Im more curious to know what you think the content of thoughts would be if there was no stimulus to base it on
In computer science, systems have been developed that implement data structures modeled on neurons. Natural random fluctuations (of which nature is full as evidenced by quantum mechanics and which are also constructed into the computer neural models) amplify and build on each other, and thus emerge unexpected complex and beautiful structures ex nihilo.
Given that the brain, way down at the bottom, is made up of fermions and so subject to the indeterminacy of quantum mechanics, it stands to reason that some random "thoughts" would emerge on the tabula rasa and lead to original thoughts, ideas, and more.
I'd agree what absent ALL input (including those engendered by quantum indeterminacy), there would be a kind of unconscious stasis where autonomic and peripheral nervous functions would occur and nothing else. I just don't think that condition is possible in nature just like a complete vacuum is not possible in nature. Quantum indeterminacy would give the brain input to chew on even without any sensory organs to detect the outside world.
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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4896744
Small Town Girl
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Diploid]
#15748680 - 02/01/12 06:13 PM (3 months, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
In computer science, systems have been developed that implement data structures modeled on neurons. Natural random fluctuations (of which nature is full as evidenced by quantum mechanics and which are also constructed into the computer neural models) amplify and build on each other, and thus emerge unexpected complex and beautiful structures ex nihilo.
Given that the brain, way down at the bottom, is made up of fermions and so subject to the indeterminacy of quantum mechanics, it stands to reason that some random "thoughts" would emerge on the tabula rasa and lead to original thoughts, ideas, and more.
Interesting, do you have any links for this?
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Live your Life!
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: 4896744]
#15749057 - 02/01/12 07:24 PM (3 months, 25 days ago) |
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neural nets in computing are not like what happens in the brain.
the other issue about a brain without sensory input and output might be hard to verify or even be certain of.
even without the regular 5 senses, signals will still get to the brain, temperature, pressure, autonomic tides and peristalsis.
that can be enough to flower into conscious streams.
once signals are in they will circulate and can interpenetrate with learning and recall - becoming thought even without linguistic structure and normal body awareness.
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sk8ordude
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: redgreenvines]
#15749700 - 02/01/12 09:33 PM (3 months, 25 days ago) |
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I think the OP has proved that the brain affects conscious experiance, it could work as a base property of reality and our brains pick it up and turn it to specific channels, which is the way most people that promote such ideas veiw the subject (the ones that come up with it anyways).
Kinda like how a reciever decodes energy frequencies, for instance a cable box is a good analogy, and you have decribed how it doesn't seem to work if you break it or turn it off, but nothing you do to the reciever effects the source.
A better idea for proving how the brain produces consciousness would be to tell us how the brain produces consciousness. But you might be right and those are indeed symptoms of brain produced consciousness, but they could be symptoms of anything, kinda like miracles and how they can be percieved in different ways without accurate information.
Edited by sk8ordude (02/01/12 09:35 PM)
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soldatheero
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: sk8ordude]
#15749777 - 02/01/12 09:53 PM (3 months, 25 days ago) |
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Saying the brain creates consicousness is like saying a cameras lense produces the light that passes through it.
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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: soldatheero]
#15749780 - 02/01/12 09:55 PM (3 months, 25 days ago) |
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No, actually it is nothing at all like that failed analogy. Not even a 'good try' for you. 
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This is your drain on brugs.
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sk8ordude
Stranger
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Perhaps you can explain why its a failed analogy, because nowhere in your OP does it describe the brain doing anything but affecting consciousness.
Edited by sk8ordude (02/01/12 10:07 PM)
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soldatheero
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Really why not? hows it a failed analogy? You think the brain creates something that wasn't already there, I think it takes something that is there and conditions it, how is you logic better than mine?
Light passing through a lense creates an image on a screen but there was never anything but light, the lense restricts the light, it limits it and divides it but there is nothing but light. Same idea that Huxley propsed over a good 60 years ago. The brain "filtes" consciousness it doesnt create it.
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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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tempusvita
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: soldatheero]
#15749945 - 02/01/12 10:40 PM (3 months, 25 days ago) |
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People who have helped me: VicariousGreg , Garfelt , occollegeboi , psilocybinjunkie , PrimalSoup
On a mission to pay it forward!
Edited by tempusvita (02/01/12 10:42 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
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Posts: 13,639
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: tempusvita]
#15750515 - 02/02/12 04:18 AM (3 months, 25 days ago) |
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neither a lens nor a receiver, the cerebral cortex generates the whole thing.
this tissue is not so complicated that it could also be a receiver of some external broadcast reality, and it also cannot be so complicated to transform some external energy like light projecting onto some other undefined surface, there are no structures to do that, but it does have structure, and that structure works to produce consciousness.
(poetically it is fair to say that life and consciousness is all around us and passes through us (like radio waves)... that is what poetic license is about, you can jumble up meaning and deform the ordinary - it is not a clear transmission of information and using it that way can be dumb)
the cerebral cortex is both the stage where the sensory signal energy inter-plays and the very material in which associated patterns are saved and from which they are recalled.
it is not too complicated a task to do those two/3 things (supporting all the salient aspects of consciousness) in one tissue.
usually the idea of lens or receiver is proposed because it looks simpler but in fact those shallow propositions actually imply much more complexity, since you still need to accommodate experiencing and memory of that imaginary broadcast. That's what you get with a geocentric universe: externalize the responsibility to some other agency then validate it by convincing people and sell some books.
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soldatheero
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: redgreenvines]
#15750932 - 02/02/12 07:57 AM (3 months, 25 days ago) |
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How could the cebral cortex be the "stage" and the generator of the whole thing when simple organisms such as worms do not have one yet very likely have experience.
How is it not poetics to say a structure creates a perceptual image?
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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: soldatheero]
#15754490 - 02/03/12 12:39 AM (3 months, 24 days ago) |
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the cortex is the stage because all the incoming signals including recall hit it and generate resonant electrical fields there.
the fields create an interference pattern.
the peaks of the pattern activate linkage cells (multi-axoned neurons) which reactivate previously linked neurons and add the ones that are currently resonating (memory fixation).
in this way the cerebral cortex is both screen and projector.
nothing else is built quite like it.
worms are beautiful, they do have an organized and elegantly coordinated behavior that looks more complicated than a tropism or simple reflex. they might have a form of consciousness since their cerebral ganglia are neuronal structures that collect sensation permitting resonance and linkage.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: redgreenvines]
#15754823 - 02/03/12 05:22 AM (3 months, 24 days ago) |
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I suggest tincture of black walnut and cloves.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Desert Elf
Registered: 08/23/11
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Brain = An organ comprising of neurons.
Mind = The specific and ever changing pathways/ patterns/ networks between these neurons.
Consciousness = The electro-magnetic activity of these networks.
Thus mind can expand or shrink also consciousness can exist in varying degrees and even cease. From a dull consciousness (little actvity) to high consciousness (much activity), to no consciousness (no activity)
The question is.. what is electro-magnetic activity.
The answer lies on the route to the question. Consciouness. Consciousness is electro magetic activity. It is locally aware of itself for what it is.
So when consciouness (EM) is expressed through a rock, it does nothing other than that which rock does. When expressed through a system such as a mind, well... you know what that feels like.
No need for spooky magical explanations, for the physical explanation is magical in itself.
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Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Desert Elf]
#15755540 - 02/03/12 10:25 AM (3 months, 24 days ago) |
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where is the like button??
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Desert Elf]
#15756684 - 02/03/12 03:24 PM (3 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Desert Elf said:
Brain = An organ comprising of neurons.
Mind = The specific and ever changing pathways/ patterns/ networks between these neurons.
Consciousness = The electro-magnetic activity of these networks.
Thus mind can expand or shrink also consciousness can exist in varying degrees and even cease. From a dull consciousness (little actvity) to high consciousness (much activity), to no consciousness (no activity)
The question is.. what is electro-magnetic activity.
The answer lies on the route to the question. Consciouness. Consciousness is electro magetic activity. It is locally aware of itself for what it is.
So when consciouness (EM) is expressed through a rock, it does nothing other than that which rock does. When expressed through a system such as a mind, well... you know what that feels like.
No need for spooky magical explanations, for the physical explanation is magical in itself.
evidence please.
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"The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic ideas (the characterological lie about reality) and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels lost. And this is the simple truth - that to live is to feel lost - he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked." - Ernest Becker
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tempusvita
PLATONIC
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Desert Elf]
#15756959 - 02/03/12 04:33 PM (3 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Desert Elf said:
Brain = An organ comprising of neurons.
Mind = The specific and ever changing pathways/ patterns/ networks between these neurons.
Consciousness = The electro-magnetic activity of these networks.
Thus mind can expand or shrink also consciousness can exist in varying degrees and even cease. From a dull consciousness (little actvity) to high consciousness (much activity), to no consciousness (no activity)
The question is.. what is electro-magnetic activity.
The answer lies on the route to the question. Consciouness. Consciousness is electro magetic activity. It is locally aware of itself for what it is.
So when consciouness (EM) is expressed through a rock, it does nothing other than that which rock does. When expressed through a system such as a mind, well... you know what that feels like.
No need for spooky magical explanations, for the physical explanation is magical in itself.
Why didn't you help me fight off all the mystics in my death thread =/? Lost cause?
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People who have helped me: VicariousGreg , Garfelt , occollegeboi , psilocybinjunkie , PrimalSoup
On a mission to pay it forward!
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Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,198
Last seen: 3 hours, 6 minutes
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: tempusvita]
#15760024 - 02/04/12 11:28 AM (3 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Brain = An organ comprising of neurons.
Mind = The specific and ever changing pathways/ patterns/ networks between these neurons.
Consciousness = The electro-magnetic activity of these networks.
Not verifyable, but a good guess perhaps. It would explain why consciousness is so hard to pin down. It would also lend some credence to the idea that consciousness is everywhere... just not human consciousness. Everyone gets to be right!
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,639
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Rahz]
#15760906 - 02/04/12 02:52 PM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
Brain = An organ comprising of neurons.
Mind = The specific and ever changing pathways/ patterns/ networks between these neurons.
Consciousness = The electro-magnetic activity of these networks.
Not verifyable, but a good guess perhaps. It would explain why consciousness is so hard to pin down. It would also lend some credence to the idea that consciousness is everywhere... just not human consciousness. Everyone gets to be right!
I don't think so but it is a great way to end a thread.
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~~~~~
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Mr Person
Tralfamadorian
Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 91
Loc: Trapped near the inner ci...
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Evidence that consciousness is generated by the brain:
1. - 5.
These are all outward displays of consciousness that you can detect in another person, but they tell you nothing about the internal subjective experience or consciousness of that person (which is fundamentally unknowable). It's this inability to truly know what's going on inside the mind of another person that leaves room for consciousness to exist independently of the brain.
Until we understand the brain well enough to actually define what consciousness is, much less how it arises from the chemical interactions in and connections between neural tissues, then for all we know the brain really could just be the means for ephemeral consciousness to interact with physical reality, an interface or antenna of sorts. All 5 points of your "evidence" would support that conclusion just as readily as the idea that the brain generates consciousness.
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Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder, 'Why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand.
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Desert Elf
Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 668
Last seen: 1 day, 14 minutes
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: blingbling]
#15764630 - 02/05/12 01:42 PM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
Desert Elf said:
Brain = An organ comprising of neurons.
Mind = The specific and ever changing pathways/ patterns/ networks between these neurons.
Consciousness = The electro-magnetic activity of these networks.
Thus mind can expand or shrink also consciousness can exist in varying degrees and even cease. From a dull consciousness (little actvity) to high consciousness (much activity), to no consciousness (no activity)
The question is.. what is electro-magnetic activity.
The answer lies on the route to the question. Consciouness. Consciousness is electro magetic activity. It is locally aware of itself for what it is.
So when consciouness (EM) is expressed through a rock, it does nothing other than that which rock does. When expressed through a system such as a mind, well... you know what that feels like.
No need for spooky magical explanations, for the physical explanation is magical in itself.
evidence please.
For which bit?
Brain = An organ comprising of neurons. (I doubt you object)
Mind = The specific and ever changing pathways/ patterns/ networks between these neurons. (Evidenced by neurology)
Consciousness = The electro-magnetic activity of these networks. (evidenced by neuroimaging scans which display higher levels of electro-magnetic activity during higher states of consciousness)
Thus mind can expand or shrink also consciousness can exist in varying degrees and even cease. From a dull consciousness (little actvity) to high consciousness (much activity), to no consciousness (no activity)
The question is.. what is electro-magnetic activity.
The answer lies on the route to the question. Consciouness. Consciousness is electro magetic activity. It is locally aware of itself for what it is. (evidenced by the fact that when you are conscious, a scan will show this activity. During unconsious moments the scan will show no or little EM activity. When you awaken, you can vouch for the corresponding lack of subjective experience in this time. To assume this changes after death is wishful thinking and unsubstantiated)
So when consciouness (EM) is expressed through a rock, it does nothing other than that which rock does. When expressed through a system such as a mind, well... you know what that feels like. (Is this not self evident?)
--------------------
Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat
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Desert Elf
Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 668
Last seen: 1 day, 14 minutes
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Rahz]
#15764704 - 02/05/12 02:02 PM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Not verifyable, but a good guess perhaps. It would explain why consciousness is so hard to pin down. It would also lend some credence to the idea that consciousness is everywhere... just not human consciousness. Everyone gets to be right!
The evidence suggests that consciousness is EM activity. We can state through personal experience that the subjective experience of consciousness is 'felt'. We feel everything that our consciousness touches... the patterns of the mind and the way they are stimulated feel the way they do because that is what they are. There is no need to question why, because it just is.
The problem is if you say EM is consciousness and viceversa, then people jump to the conclusion that all things have some level of consciousness and they assume this means human consciousness. EM is felt subjectively and through all things but only to the extent of what it is being expressed through in the physical world of arrangements. All arrangements feel like what they are and their consciousness extends, typically, only as far as that arrangement differs from its surroundings. So for example, a brain is being 'felt up' by EM activity, and a brain contains some pretty intense arrangements. So much so that consciousness is focused on the mind as its own entity.
This does allow for some 'hippy shit', because through changing your focus (meditation) perhaps you become subtly aware of a 'further reach' of EM activity.
But of course, it also suggests that death and subsequent decomposition, also leads to the decomposition of mind and the 'individual' experience. It does however support a proposed 'merging into the one and eternal source' You just wouldnt be 'you' when it happens.
Could be that experience is stored in a tangential dimension, which allows 'units' or entities to exist as pure expression of EM without physical restraints... perhaps.
But whatever the truth, we must focus on what we know rather than assumptions.
--------------------
Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat
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Desert Elf
Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 668
Last seen: 1 day, 14 minutes
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: tempusvita]
#15764724 - 02/05/12 02:08 PM (3 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
tempusvita said:
Why didn't you help me fight off all the mystics in my death thread =/? Lost cause?
Because you made the assumption that science had a conclusion about all this. If you deal only with what we know thus far (very little still) and make a total conclusion about unknowns, then you are just as bad as those who believe in assumptions that have no supporting evidence.
Anyone who has ever had a psychedelic experience will vouch for the fact that there is so much more we dont know. Lets just do the best with what we know and continue the search.
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Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat
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tempusvita
PLATONIC
Registered: 01/10/12
Posts: 263
Last seen: 3 months, 19 days
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Desert Elf]
#15764758 - 02/05/12 02:21 PM (3 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Desert Elf said:
Quote:
tempusvita said:
Why didn't you help me fight off all the mystics in my death thread =/? Lost cause?
Because you made the assumption that science had a conclusion about all this. If you deal only with what we know thus far (very little still) and make a total conclusion about unknowns, then you are just as bad as those who believe in assumptions that have no supporting evidence.
Anyone who has ever had a psychedelic experience will vouch for the fact that there is so much more we dont know. Lets just do the best with what we know and continue the search.
I have made an error....
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People who have helped me: VicariousGreg , Garfelt , occollegeboi , psilocybinjunkie , PrimalSoup
On a mission to pay it forward!
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 1,389
Last seen: 18 hours, 57 minutes
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Desert Elf]
#15765309 - 02/05/12 04:45 PM (3 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Desert Elf said:
Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
Desert Elf said:
Brain = An organ comprising of neurons.
Mind = The specific and ever changing pathways/ patterns/ networks between these neurons.
Consciousness = The electro-magnetic activity of these networks.
Thus mind can expand or shrink also consciousness can exist in varying degrees and even cease. From a dull consciousness (little actvity) to high consciousness (much activity), to no consciousness (no activity)
The question is.. what is electro-magnetic activity.
The answer lies on the route to the question. Consciouness. Consciousness is electro magetic activity. It is locally aware of itself for what it is.
So when consciouness (EM) is expressed through a rock, it does nothing other than that which rock does. When expressed through a system such as a mind, well... you know what that feels like.
No need for spooky magical explanations, for the physical explanation is magical in itself.
evidence please.
For which bit?
Brain = An organ comprising of neurons. (I doubt you object)
Mind = The specific and ever changing pathways/ patterns/ networks between these neurons. (Evidenced by neurology)
Consciousness = The electro-magnetic activity of these networks. (evidenced by neuroimaging scans which display higher levels of electro-magnetic activity during higher states of consciousness)
Thus mind can expand or shrink also consciousness can exist in varying degrees and even cease. From a dull consciousness (little actvity) to high consciousness (much activity), to no consciousness (no activity)
The question is.. what is electro-magnetic activity.
The answer lies on the route to the question. Consciouness. Consciousness is electro magetic activity. It is locally aware of itself for what it is. (evidenced by the fact that when you are conscious, a scan will show this activity. During unconsious moments the scan will show no or little EM activity. When you awaken, you can vouch for the corresponding lack of subjective experience in this time. To assume this changes after death is wishful thinking and unsubstantiated)
So when consciouness (EM) is expressed through a rock, it does nothing other than that which rock does. When expressed through a system such as a mind, well... you know what that feels like. (Is this not self evident?)
correlation does not entail causation. don't you think your jumping the gun a bit?
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"The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic ideas (the characterological lie about reality) and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels lost. And this is the simple truth - that to live is to feel lost - he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked." - Ernest Becker
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Desert Elf
Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 668
Last seen: 1 day, 14 minutes
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: blingbling]
#15767412 - 02/06/12 06:31 AM (3 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said:
correlation does not entail causation. don't you think your jumping the gun a bit?
Not necessarily, but it is evidence none-the-less.
Man's entrance to bank on surveillance footage correlates to time of robbery. Does not prove he is the culprit, but is evidence to suggest such a claim.
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Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,639
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Desert Elf]
#15768149 - 02/06/12 11:29 AM (3 months, 21 days ago) |
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to suggest investigation, not to suggest guilt
circumstantial
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~~~~~
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 1,389
Last seen: 18 hours, 57 minutes
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Desert Elf]
#15770762 - 02/06/12 08:02 PM (3 months, 20 days ago) |
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Not necessarily, but it is evidence none-the-less.
evidence of what? your assuming that consciousness is electromagnetic because according to your source people who are conscious emit an electromagnetic field but this electromagnetic field could simply be a byproduct of biological mechanisms in the brain. just because the brain emits an electromagnetic field does not mean that consciousness is electromagnetic.
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"The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic ideas (the characterological lie about reality) and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels lost. And this is the simple truth - that to live is to feel lost - he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked." - Ernest Becker
Edited by blingbling (02/06/12 08:03 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,639
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: blingbling]
#15772464 - 02/07/12 05:20 AM (3 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said:
Not necessarily, but it is evidence none-the-less.
evidence of what? your assuming that consciousness is electromagnetic because according to your source people who are conscious emit an electromagnetic field but this electromagnetic field could simply be a byproduct of biological mechanisms in the brain. just because the brain emits an electromagnetic field does not mean that consciousness is electromagnetic.
funny you should say that, but also incorrect on both counts
Yes, there is a field from the brain - but that is like saying there is a light from a TV screen, the important issue is not the light but that there are patterns in the light (both cases) - patterns in the brain means multiple shifting fields anchored to the biological substrate.
in both cases (tv and brain) the patterns are 'interesting' and suggest 'meaning'
in the case of brain only, the patterns (by virtue of the underlying biological structure) produce 'meaning' by 'reflexive' associative recollection and remixing of that into the stream of patterned energy fields.
Consciousness seems very special and personal because of the ongoing personal remix layer.
the cerebral cortex is the place where the material (body) becomes aware of it's presence and in which it relates to its surrounds.
this may not be perfect, but it's what we got.
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~~~~~
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Desert Elf
Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 668
Last seen: 1 day, 14 minutes
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: redgreenvines]
#15772509 - 02/07/12 05:46 AM (3 months, 20 days ago) |
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Also I want to stress that I didnt mean that all electromagnetism (say, a current through a copper wire) is conscious of itself. At least, not in any meaningful way. That is, it doesnt go round thinking about things and imagining what it will do next. Those kinds of processes are only produced by complex mechanisms in the brain.
Coming back to the hard problem. If we cannot assume there is a subjective property to EM fields, then we simply revert back to the impossible task of trying to make something physical create something non-physical. The task is flawed to begin with because ... well how exactly can anything be non-physical? And even if we can replicate the physical processes that create consciousness, we can never test for it, because of its subjective nature.
Subjective experience is an undeniable property of the physical world. I can vouch for this, and so can anyone else. If there is any further mystery to this, then it will reveal itself at that time. At the moment the world is doing this.
--------------------
Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 1,389
Last seen: 18 hours, 57 minutes
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Desert Elf]
#15775443 - 02/07/12 05:37 PM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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If we cannot assume there is a subjective property to EM fields, then we simply revert back to the impossible task of trying to make something physical create something non-physical.
is this supposed to be evidence that consciousness is electromagnetic?
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"The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic ideas (the characterological lie about reality) and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels lost. And this is the simple truth - that to live is to feel lost - he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked." - Ernest Becker
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,639
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Desert Elf]
#15776286 - 02/07/12 08:07 PM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Desert Elf said:
Also I want to stress that I didnt mean that all electromagnetism (say, a current through a copper wire) is conscious of itself. At least, not in any meaningful way. That is, it doesnt go round thinking about things and imagining what it will do next. Those kinds of processes are only produced by complex mechanisms in the brain.
those are varieties of the associative process
the whole brain is involved in this associative activity at the same time as it is involved in sensations.
associations and sensations mix in the cortex
whatever is active in any moment gets linked together ---- that is memory creation
the rest of consciousness is experiencing sensation and memory mixing.
Quote:
Desert Elf said:
Coming back to the hard problem. If we cannot assume there is a subjective property to EM fields, then we simply revert back to the impossible task of trying to make something physical create something non-physical. The task is flawed to begin with because ... well how exactly can anything be non-physical? And even if we can replicate the physical processes that create consciousness, we can never test for it, because of its subjective nature.
Subjective experience is an undeniable property of the physical world. I can vouch for this, and so can anyone else. If there is any further mystery to this, then it will reveal itself at that time. At the moment the world is doing this.
it is absolutely a physical process, the wonder of it is so great that we are very inclined to declare that it is too good to be real, or too good to be physical, or too fluid to be made the way it is described.
slightly awe inspiring i'd say - and that's without machine elves
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~~~~~
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Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,198
Last seen: 3 hours, 6 minutes
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: redgreenvines]
#15776717 - 02/07/12 09:28 PM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
whatever is active in any moment gets linked together ---- that is memory creation
the rest of consciousness is experiencing sensation and memory mixing.
It seems to me that consciousness is the experiencing, and the sensations and memory/thought/emotion/etc. is what's being experienced. Complexity can shape the expression into memories and reasoning but it doesn't explain why we are aware of any of it.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Rahz]
#15777054 - 02/07/12 10:46 PM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
whatever is active in any moment gets linked together ---- that is memory creation
the rest of consciousness is experiencing sensation and memory mixing.
It seems to me that consciousness is the experiencing, and the sensations and memory/thought/emotion/etc. is what's being experienced. Complexity can shape the expression into memories and reasoning but it doesn't explain why we are aware of any of it.
i think we are aware of it because that's what happens when the neural circuits reach a threshold of complexity
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"The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic ideas (the characterological lie about reality) and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels lost. And this is the simple truth - that to live is to feel lost - he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked." - Ernest Becker
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soldatheero
lastirishman
Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,588
Loc:
Last seen: 1 day, 15 hours
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: blingbling] 1
#15777130 - 02/07/12 11:10 PM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
it is absolutely a physical process, the wonder of it is so great that we are very inclined to declare that it is too good to be real, or too good to be physical, or too fluid to be made the way it is described.
What does it really mean to say it is a physical processes?
These statements such as "consciousness = electromagnetic activity of neurons" what does this really mean when you do not even know what electro-magnetism is or what is causing it.
To say consciousness is the result of magnetic fields or electricity passing through neural networks means nothing when in the deeper picture you do not know what causes electricity.
We don't understand what causes electricity or magnetism we just observe it and recognized it as a phenomenon. We can describe it's behavior to a tee but we don't know what it is.
You believe that consciousness is the result of electro-magnetism, to that I would say no shit you do because the entire physical universe is the result of the EMF as it is fundamental.
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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 1,389
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: soldatheero] 1
#15777192 - 02/07/12 11:24 PM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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this whole electromagnetic consciousness idea seems like a perverted materialism to me. it's like their trying to maintain a materialist stance by claiming it's physical and also an idealist stance by making it ethereal. at least idealists have some logical arguments even though their arguments only exist in word games.
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"The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic ideas (the characterological lie about reality) and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels lost. And this is the simple truth - that to live is to feel lost - he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked." - Ernest Becker
Edited by blingbling (02/07/12 11:25 PM)
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soldatheero
lastirishman
Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,588
Loc:
Last seen: 1 day, 15 hours
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: blingbling]
#15777253 - 02/07/12 11:43 PM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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Funny how you say idealist arguments only exist in word games yet what you are pointing out is exactly materialists using word games. rofl
You are right though.. Expanding the definition of material to including the etheral.
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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 1,389
Last seen: 18 hours, 57 minutes
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: soldatheero]
#15777358 - 02/08/12 12:11 AM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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Funny how you say idealist arguments only exist in word games yet what you are pointing out is exactly materialists using word games. rofl
perverted materialists*
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"The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic ideas (the characterological lie about reality) and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels lost. And this is the simple truth - that to live is to feel lost - he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked." - Ernest Becker
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,298
Loc: Americas
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: soldatheero]
#15777630 - 02/08/12 02:49 AM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
funny you should say that, but also incorrect on both counts
What is incorrect in what he said, specifically?
Quote:
Yes, there is a field from the brain - but that is like saying there is a light from a TV screen, the important issue is not the light but that there are patterns in the light (both cases) - patterns in the brain means multiple shifting fields anchored to the biological substrate.
So what, there is light from a TV screen. You claim this is not important, but fail to show how this unimportance as alleged has any relevance to your claim.
Quote:
Desert Elf said:
Coming back to the hard problem. If we cannot assume there is a subjective property to EM fields, then we simply revert back to the impossible task of trying to make something physical create something non-physical. The task is flawed to begin with because ... well how exactly can anything be non-physical?
What grounds do you have to say this- that we must make something physical create something non-physical? I don't see where that comes from. Further, its even more difficult to imagine how an EM field having subjective qualities or not has any such consequence as suggested in your post.
People often seem to use "subjective" in this forum in weird ways, and this is one such example. Often they seem to presume that subjective data can't be objectively analyzed or is false- sometimes even transcendent or supernatural. Its clear that an EM field has particular properties and a subjective evaluation can be made of them like every other phenomena, but how could this be relevant?
Quote:
soldatheero said:
These statements such as "consciousness = electromagnetic activity of neurons" what does this really mean when you do not even know what electro-magnetism is or what is causing it.
Doesn't seem to be a relevant question though, since we seem to know quite a bit about EM and certainly as much as other things we're comfortable claiming to understand. We also know where EM comes from and what is causing it, so no trouble there. Obviously it can't be correct that EM is consciousness, as later the poster says not all EM is concious, and it seems very likely that consciousness was arbitrarily attributed to but one of signal transmission methods used in the nervous system that is quite localized and limited in its role in the brain. Seems sort of like saying a computer is wire just because that transmits signals from component to component on circuit bords, et cet.
Quote:
To say consciousness is the result of magnetic fields or electricity passing through neural networks means nothing when in the deeper picture you do not know what causes electricity.
We do: the existance of a potential difference between two arreas between which a charge carrier travles in response to such, in this case induced by ion concentrations.
Quote:
We don't understand what causes electricity or magnetism we just observe it and recognized it as a phenomenon. We can describe it's behavior to a tee but we don't know what it is.
What's the difference between describing behavior and knowing what something is? There's no way to know what the fundamental reality of anything is, and since it would make no difference what the answer is, its a moot question. Science is limited to finding the efficient causes of pheomena, and it wouldn't be of any importance even if we weren't. In a very real sense, there is no underlying reality if its impossible to observe even in principle.
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You believe that consciousness is the result of electro-magnetism, to that I would
say no shit you do because the entire physical universe is the result of the EMF as it is fundamental.
What evidence of this do you have? EM is just one of the forces in the universe, and i can't see why we wouldn't have a universe if we suppose no charged particles came into existance.
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Desert Elf
Registered: 08/23/11
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: blingbling]
#15777664 - 02/08/12 03:39 AM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said:
If we cannot assume there is a subjective property to EM fields, then we simply revert back to the impossible task of trying to make something physical create something non-physical.
is this supposed to be evidence that consciousness is electromagnetic?
In objective reality, we can observe consciousness as patterns of EM activity in the brain. This is fact. Subjectively, we can state that this EM field looks like consciousness but we cannot vouch for the subjective 'experience' of those patterns. Only the individual can personally vouch for their subjective experience. But then, the individual is the subjective experience of those patterns.
And I am not trying to justify materialism at all. It doesnt matter how you describe it, what words you use, the fact is it is only a certain way.
The physical world includes in it basically everything. Please explain how anything can be non-physical?
All I am saying is that people crete a problem out of nothing by assuming subjective experience cannot just be a property of the physical world.
Self awareness in and learning occur not after some threshold of complexity as if by magic. they arise when the mechanisms for such processes arise. The fact that there is 'someone' feeling this self awareness is just how it is. It cannot be denied and there is no need to separate it from the physical world... unless your definition of the physical world has a personal connotation of being decidedly 'dead.' A physical materialist can even believe in magic if they like, they would just have to accept that we don't understand it yet.
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Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat
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Desert Elf
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: johnm214]
#15777670 - 02/08/12 03:46 AM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
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Desert Elf said:
Coming back to the hard problem. If we cannot assume there is a subjective property to EM fields, then we simply revert back to the impossible task of trying to make something physical create something non-physical. The task is flawed to begin with because ... well how exactly can anything be non-physical?
What grounds do you have to say this- that we must make something physical create something non-physical? I don't see where that comes from. Further, its even more difficult to imagine how an EM field having subjective qualities or not has any such consequence as suggested in your post.
People often seem to use "subjective" in this forum in weird ways, and this is one such example. Often they seem to presume that subjective data can't be objectively analyzed or is false- sometimes even transcendent or supernatural. Its clear that an EM field has particular properties and a subjective evaluation can be made of them like every other phenomena, but how could this be relevant?
In this case, EM activity in the brain can be objectively measured. I don't deny this. Possibly in future we will have such high resolution scanning and advanced understanding of brain function to measure subjective thoughts accurately.
All I meant was that even though we can see evidence of consciousness, only the individual can vouch for their own personal experience of that activity. The phenomenological aspect of experience. That is not to say that I don't believe this evidence gives plenty reason to assume conscious activity. Quite the opposite, I say where there is smoke there's fire.
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Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: soldatheero]
#15777687 - 02/08/12 03:58 AM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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Please explain how anything can be non-physical?
no thanks.
All I am saying is that people crete a problem out of nothing by assuming subjective experience cannot just be a property of the physical world.
i agree.
Self awareness in and learning occur not after some threshold of complexity as if by magic. they arise when the mechanisms for such processes arise.
same thing really
It cannot be denied and there is no need to separate it from the physical world... unless your definition of the physical world has a personal connotation of being decidedly 'dead.'
i agree.
In objective reality, we can observe consciousness as patterns of EM activity in the brain. This is fact. Subjectively, we can state that this EM field looks like consciousness but we cannot vouch for the subjective 'experience' of those patterns.
so where is the part where EM = consciousness?
If we cannot assume there is a subjective property to EM fields, then we simply revert back to the impossible task of trying to make something physical create something non-physical.
my point was that this is not evidence of EM = consciousness.
your simply mystifying consciousness by claiming it is EM. the end.
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"The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic ideas (the characterological lie about reality) and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels lost. And this is the simple truth - that to live is to feel lost - he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked." - Ernest Becker
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Desert Elf
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: blingbling]
#15777713 - 02/08/12 04:13 AM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said:
Self awareness in and learning occur not after some threshold of complexity as if by magic. they arise when the mechanisms for such processes arise.
same thing really
In objective reality, we can observe consciousness as patterns of EM activity in the brain. This is fact. Subjectively, we can state that this EM field looks like consciousness but we cannot vouch for the subjective 'experience' of those patterns.
so where is the part where EM = consciousness?
If we cannot assume there is a subjective property to EM fields, then we simply revert back to the impossible task of trying to make something physical create something non-physical.
my point was that this is not evidence of EM = consciousness.
your simply mystifying consciousness by claiming it is EM. the end.
Not the end I am sorry to say. It is not mystification at all, it is the exact opposite. We observe EM fileds in the brain as a complex flow of activity which coincides with the subjects personal experience of consciousness. To deduce that such activity having a subjective quality to it is a reasonable step. Obviously this needs much further investigation, but as we can all vouch for our own experience there seems to be no need to conjure up any mystical source of consciousness to solve the problem of duality. It isnt a problem to begin with, there is simply what is and observations about what is.
Also when you said threshold complexity, I assumed you meant just arbitrary complexity after a certain point becomes conscious for the fact that it is complex rather than because consciousness is a property of the physical world which only becomes 'meaningful' when specific physical mechanisms are able to carry out certain processes. So sorry, I guess you meant complexity in the same way.
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Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Desert Elf]
#15777751 - 02/08/12 04:39 AM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Desert Elf said:
Consciousness = The electro-magnetic activity of these networks.
this is the part i disagree with. imo consciousness is the sum of many parts and not simply electro-magnetic activity. even if the electro-magnetic activity changes when subjective experience changes it is still not evidence that consciousness is electro-magnetic. it could simply be that electro-magnetism is a byproduct of the physical mechanisms in the brain which cause experience and not experience itself. i would agree with almost everything else you have said.
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"The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic ideas (the characterological lie about reality) and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels lost. And this is the simple truth - that to live is to feel lost - he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked." - Ernest Becker
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Desert Elf
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: blingbling]
#15777768 - 02/08/12 04:54 AM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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I agree it takes complex systems to produce any meaningful consciousness. I don't just think EM is consciousness full stop. At least not in a meaningful sense.
I admit it is a step to take but a reasonable one at least.
If we can identify any other function of the brain.. perhaps one day we discover a 'consciousness field' of energy.. I don't know...
I just personally think we have found that field already, and the only reason we refuse to accept it as the visible effect of conscious activity is because people assume there is something special about consciousness that cannot arise in the physical world without some magical explanation.
Dont get the impression that I meant wherever you find EM, there is some conscious spirit, pondering itself.
I think EM feels like EM feels like, and complex patterns of EM feel like this.. you and I.
I think an experiment in which we duplicate the EM activity of the human brain in perfect resolution, would be pointless. To test such a device/machine/whatever we would detect EM activity and state that it shows the exact signs of conscious activity, yet I can think of no way we can verify that such a thing would 'feel' itself.
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Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
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Posts: 13,639
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Rahz]
#15777781 - 02/08/12 05:02 AM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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I am responding to Rahz at this moment since I think that he is closest to following my tack, but all of you seem interested and ready to wrangle useful meaning from this thread.
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Rahz said:
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whatever is active in any moment gets linked together ---- that is memory creation
the rest of consciousness is experiencing sensation and memory mixing.
It seems to me that consciousness is the experiencing, and the sensations and memory/thought/emotion/etc. is what's being experienced. Complexity can shape the expression into memories and reasoning but it doesn't explain why we are aware of any of it.
you say we, what we,
aside from activity in that place where everything mixes (elements of sensation, elements of associated memory) there is no separate observer.
I know it was already hard to consider that the same material (cerebral cortex) receives sensations, and records associations of sensations mixed with recollections, and endures 'states of mind' with longer and slower fading, is also the stage of all that activity.
Now you have to consider that this material also is the same thing that watches itself. OK ok, not exactly in exactly the very the same place, the reflection is frontal cortex, and prefrontal cortex adds an extra wrinkle to 'self' awareness.
frontal and prefrontal provide a physical opportunity to evaluate the current momentary mashup against events in the stream of consciousness over the last 5 minutes (patterns that are still in recent fixation mode), and prefrontal provides the opportunity to create evaluation patterns of the overall personal picture, save them and relate them to what it has learned.
fragments of experience that emerge from prefrontal appear to be what is commonly taken for your immortal soul, and fragments of experience emerging from your frontal cortex appear to be your ego.
these are fleeting fragments of experience, you cannot touch them so they seem intangible or spiritual. they have no verifiable existence other than their momentary occurrences in cortical areas of the brain.
riding the wave, of the now, as it were, the presence of the other is palpable, the echo-selves, the 'higher' selves, and other fancy creations. all phantastic, constructs to help explain the fleeting evidence of two levels of fragmentary self reflective activity.
the body contains the self events, and those events are not a separate thing from the body. Unlike the tv show which only provides transmitted or recorded content, the body creates it's show on the go, always richer until it's over.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
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Posts: 13,639
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: johnm214]
#15777790 - 02/08/12 05:12 AM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
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redgreenvines said:
funny you should say that, but also incorrect on both counts
What is incorrect in what he said, specifically?
what is incorrect (already explained that) is to consider that electrical patterns or fields are the same as electrical force, as if magnetically recorded information on your hard drive were the same as a weakly forced magnet itself.
EM energy yes, but not just energy, energy patterns in the matrix of body, as a progression, integrated with tissues and the surrounds. You could say intelligent energy patterns because of the associative nature of them.
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Desert Elf
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: redgreenvines]
#15778462 - 02/08/12 09:33 AM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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I totally agree. If you followed closely you would have seen that we established that the higher mechanisms of consciousness are not simply electrical force but a complex interplay of fields. Sort of like a fountain (rather than a bundled up hose.)
You seem to be going into more detail on various portions of the brain and their interactions. All I wanted to establish was the that the EM fields in themselves are consciousness, the complex patterns and interaction (of which I am no expert) of these fields are just higher modes of conscious function, caused by numerous brain processes.
My answer to the 'hard problem' is that these fields alone 'feel' as they are.. simply a property of the physical world. So when a meaningful complex 'fountain' of activity is taking place.. it follows that it just 'feels' like us.
Dont get me wrong I am not a neurologist.. haha. I do find this all extremely interesting.
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Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat
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grease
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: 4896744] 1
#15778508 - 02/08/12 09:46 AM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
iThink said:
It's the organ in your skull. It is processing information that it receives from sensory organs and creates memories and thoughts/feelings associated with said memories based on the patterns it has recorded through experience and its pre-existing structure. It uses past patterns to recognize the need for future patterns to maintain survival and/or reach other goals.
If life is only about survival and reproduction, and improval of species, then why are we even conscious at all?
Infact, it amuses me to see people make scientific facts about consciousness, when they don't even have a concept of what consciousness is. By consciousness I mean the capacity of experience. If we are simply robots, zombies protecting our species, then why do we have this feeling of "me"? How can you take a big mixture of building blocks that has no consciousness, and suddenly it becomes conscious?
We don't know shit about consciousness, it's ok to discuss the topic, but there is no scientific explanation for it.
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Desert Elf
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: grease]
#15778610 - 02/08/12 10:17 AM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
grease said:
Quote:
iThink said:
It's the organ in your skull. It is processing information that it receives from sensory organs and creates memories and thoughts/feelings associated with said memories based on the patterns it has recorded through experience and its pre-existing structure. It uses past patterns to recognize the need for future patterns to maintain survival and/or reach other goals.
If life is only about survival and reproduction, and improval of species, then why are we even conscious at all?
Infact, it amuses me to see people make scientific facts about consciousness, when they don't even have a concept of what consciousness is. By consciousness I mean the capacity of experience. If we are simply robots, zombies protecting our species, then why do we have this feeling of "me"? How can you take a big mixture of building blocks that has no consciousness, and suddenly it becomes conscious?
We don't know shit about consciousness, it's ok to discuss the topic, but there is no scientific explanation for it.
What makes you think a robot or zombie wouldn't just feel like a robot or zombie.
What makes you think that all those 'building blocks' dont feel like building blocks.
Perhaps everything just feels like what it is.
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Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat
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Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Desert Elf]
#15778925 - 02/08/12 11:52 AM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
i think we are aware of it because that's what happens when the neural circuits reach a threshold of complexity
I don't make the statement that EM is consciousness, but I do consider the possibility because I don't know what generates consciousness. No one has made a reasonable case that consciousness requires complexity. It seems the argument makes the jump to the evidence being the proof.
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Now you have to consider that this material also is the same thing that watches itself.
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Perhaps everything just feels like what it is.
Perhaps. But perhaps not.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Rahz]
#15778964 - 02/08/12 12:00 PM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Perhaps. But perhaps not.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Desert Elf
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Rahz]
#15779014 - 02/08/12 12:10 PM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Perhaps. But perhaps not.
Consider that you are what you are, and (by my guess) you subjectively feel like that. Unless you believe we are somehow different from all the other physical 'things' in the world, then why wouldn't you extend this assumption to all things?
After all, you assume it for other people you meet. Even though you cant escape 'yourself' in order to take a peek from another perspective.
Perhaps not though... I concur. 
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Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
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Posts: 13,639
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Desert Elf] 1
#15779175 - 02/08/12 12:47 PM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Desert Elf said:
I totally agree. If you followed closely you would have seen that we established that the higher mechanisms of consciousness are not simply electrical force but a complex interplay of fields. Sort of like a fountain (rather than a bundled up hose.)
You seem to be going into more detail on various portions of the brain and their interactions. All I wanted to establish was the that the EM fields in themselves are consciousness, the complex patterns and interaction (of which I am no expert) of these fields are just higher modes of conscious function, caused by numerous brain processes.
My answer to the 'hard problem' is that these fields alone 'feel' as they are.. simply a property of the physical world. So when a meaningful complex 'fountain' of activity is taking place.. it follows that it just 'feels' like us.
Dont get me wrong I am not a neurologist.. haha. I do find this all extremely interesting.
I got to the point of thinking that the interference of electrical waves (not exactly fields but propagating oscillations of fields) are the crux of the elusive 'engram', and that the procession of them is the stream of consciousness.
an engram is basically the key to the image (neuro-sensory gestalt image) that created it, so that when the key happens again, the image resurfaces in mind...
well when I got to that understanding, it seemed that the pattern might be portable, transportable and resolvable on another substrate... and yes it can be used to make another brain have mental contents with similar objects but not with the same memory. (cat & people vision experiments etc...)
anyway,
I had thought that if a standing wave of that complexity could somehow be preserved then we could have a basis for ghosts, or diembodied spirits and what have you ...
or at least you could have wonderful activations in anything like mucous that was alive...
but
as the thought experiment proceeds,
we see that the electrical interference pattern (conscious energy field) is very dependent upon substrate (non-extant without) or there is no procession or sequence or stream - and consciousness really does stream.
the patterns of energies in the cortex, mean nothing when not in the cortex.
it is the very connection to the body through that cortex that makes the thing real.
it is the body is the prime mover, even in quadriplegics.
so just the field pattern, well - as critical a component it may be, it totally needs the brain to make it consciously stream, otherwise, it lasts only a moment and connects with nothing else except entropy.
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Rahz
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Desert Elf] 1
#15779295 - 02/08/12 01:09 PM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Unless you believe we are somehow different from all the other physical 'things' in the world, then why wouldn't you extend this assumption to all things?
Things have differences. For all I know consciousness could be something that originates on the cellular level. It's easy to imagine that a bacterium feels stimulus, but not so easy to imagine a rock feels stimulus. Form creates function, so unless we want to hold a smug mystic point of view, the forms need further investigation. It could be the function of consciousness takes place within the EM field, or on all level and all expressions. Then again, taking a look at the idea of the sub-conscious, perhaps it does take complex machinery for consciousness to form as RGV says.
It is mystical to me, but that's not an indication I know what I'm talking about.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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Ferdinando
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Posts: 565
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Rahz]
#15787291 - 02/10/12 04:16 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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I like to read your posts and let it sink in
it takes a while
I may stop
and let it manifest or take root
and then it grows
seems natural
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Don't be mad, there's no reason to
We are all reflections of our surroundings
Breathe
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JahLive
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Ferdinando]
#15800344 - 02/12/12 08:58 PM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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The brain and the mind are two different things. Plants have a mind. Shrooms have a mind. Neither has a brain, but you can observe them grow and respond intelligently to their environment.
Since the brain dies but the mind doesn't, we can only conclude that the brain is the interface to the mind. But it's not a fully open interface. Parts of it are blocked, and psychadelics help to unblock the blocked parts.
What we call consciousness is a state of the interface, not the mind.
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Philosophical
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: JahLive]
#15801302 - 02/13/12 12:13 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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We are limited by our atomic make up, it is possible that we cannot perceive the true reality of the intangible consciousnesses because simply we have not evolved to the standpoint to provide the TOE (Theory of Everything). Our source can be linked to the phenomenon of a exploding star. I think we will only be able to provide a solid answer once we can understand this cosmos (not just the chemical reactions of it, but worm holes and black holes). There is something more than the chemical reaction in my belief, I mean it is the cosmos, its fucking awesome. If all there is to life is chemical reaction we can conclude that consciousness is the result of a chemical reaction.
At this point in time I conclude consciousness is God.
This goes back in history when people didn't have a explanation for something then it is god, or the hand of god.
What is God? An eternal energy which is not bound to the laws of nature but is part of nature.
Maybe consciousness is not bound to the laws of nature. We are bound to the laws of nature, we cannot perceive infinity gentlemen. But we are a biological machine inhabited by a soul/consciousness ( I state this because it hasn't be proven or disproved and whats more beautiful and available to us then Hope, Love and Understanding).
This thread is futile in a sense that the subject at hand is either a result of chemical reactions or god.
We cannot map the consciousness because it can be possible that it is made as the result of the total collection of molecules which make up everything and we come to the conclusion once again that everything is God.
We are the essence of God. We will maybe never be able to perceive the ultimate reality, all we can do now in our insignificant lifespan is hope and speculate. Hey their might just be an afterlife and we will be like ohhhh, haha we weren't even close.
We are just a way for the cosmos to know itself - Carl Sagan
I think this is a Deus ex machina left in the hands for a more advanced civilization to solve. I assume, The Human race will destroy itself eventually due to the mass production of weaponry and pollution. We might never be a type 1 species, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_reactors#Japan.
Edited by Philosophical (02/13/12 07:44 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Philosophical]
#15801745 - 02/13/12 04:23 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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god is the ZERO in emotional math.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Philosophical]
#15801815 - 02/13/12 05:25 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Philosophical said:
I mean lets face facts, The Human race will destroy itself. We will never be a type 1 species, but hey prove me wrong.
Heres my prove, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_reactors#Japan
A species that does this in is such a quantity will not survive.
Ahh, I understand, you're comparing us to that other species that built nuclear reactors and, due to the quantity installed, did not survive. 
You know, it's not hard to say "because of this reason, I have a lot of doubt that humans will survive". At least then it's an accurate statement.
Acting as if your opinion is a fact (it isn't), providing for us proof (it isn't), and concluding that humans will not survive as if you've actually determined this (you haven't) makes you less able to actually understand what's happening.
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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Sleepwalker
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: fireworks_god] 1
#15802399 - 02/13/12 09:52 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
Philosophical said:
I mean lets face facts, The Human race will destroy itself. We will never be a type 1 species, but hey prove me wrong.
Heres my prove, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_reactors#Japan
A species that does this in is such a quantity will not survive.
Ahh, I understand, you're comparing us to that other species that built nuclear reactors and, due to the quantity installed, did not survive.
You know, it's not hard to say "because of this reason, I have a lot of doubt that humans will survive". At least then it's an accurate statement.
Acting as if your opinion is a fact (it isn't), providing for us proof (it isn't), and concluding that humans will not survive as if you've actually determined this (you haven't) makes you less able to actually understand what's happening.
The diversity of human culture, and eventually the entire human race, will be thrown into ruin by Genghis Khan by the end of this, the 13th century. Here's my proof. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions
whoops, just had a flashback to my past life as a conquered Asiatic pessimist.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,604
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Philosophical]
#15802409 - 02/13/12 09:57 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Human's have been making mistakes and surviving them for as long as we've been here. Fact is that nobody knows what will happen with us and when. Of course we will go most likely at some point but it may have nothing to do with what we do on earth.
Shit I've been hoping for the end of the human race for many years and so far I'm very disappointed. 
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 5,116
Loc: Between
Last seen: 1 day, 4 hours
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Philosophical]
#15802559 - 02/13/12 10:47 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Philosophical said:
[...]What is God? An eternal energy which is not bound to the laws of nature.[...]
No.
edit: God and nature/all is one and the same. No separation needed. In history, the catholic church even defined the laws of nature as the laws of god because only a trickster (/heretic) would be able to defy them 
Edited by BlueCoyote (02/13/12 10:57 AM)
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 5,116
Loc: Between
Last seen: 1 day, 4 hours
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Icelander]
#15802570 - 02/13/12 10:51 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Human's have been making mistakes and surviving them for as long as we've been here. Fact is that nobody knows what will happen with us and when. Of course we will go most likely at some point but it may have nothing to do with what we do on earth.
Shit I've been hoping for the end of the human race for many years and so far I'm very disappointed.
If we are forced to depend/rely on what we are able to do because the self regenerating eco-system of our planet is destroyed, only maybe an asteroid can prevent us from a long time of suffering ahead of most humans in the future because of economical dictatorship.
Edited by BlueCoyote (02/13/12 10:58 AM)
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 1,389
Last seen: 18 hours, 57 minutes
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: BlueCoyote]
#15806909 - 02/14/12 03:31 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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SPEAK ENGLISH!!
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"The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic ideas (the characterological lie about reality) and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels lost. And this is the simple truth - that to live is to feel lost - he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked." - Ernest Becker
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 1,389
Last seen: 18 hours, 57 minutes
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Icelander]
#15806915 - 02/14/12 03:34 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Human's have been making mistakes and surviving them for as long as we've been here. Fact is that nobody knows what will happen with us and when. Of course we will go most likely at some point but it may have nothing to do with what we do on earth.
Shit I've been hoping for the end of the human race for many years and so far I'm very disappointed.
all life will eventually be wiped out so there's no reason to be upset.
--------------------
"The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic ideas (the characterological lie about reality) and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels lost. And this is the simple truth - that to live is to feel lost - he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked." - Ernest Becker
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4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 15 days, 19 hours
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: blingbling]
#15807587 - 02/14/12 09:17 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Human's have been making mistakes and surviving them for as long as we've been here. Fact is that nobody knows what will happen with us and when. Of course we will go most likely at some point but it may have nothing to do with what we do on earth.
Shit I've been hoping for the end of the human race for many years and so far I'm very disappointed.
all life will eventually be wiped out so there's no reason to be upset.
This seems likely, but so does the possibility of it all repeating itself.
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Live your Life!
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White Beard
Venerable White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 2,318
Loc: In the forest somewhere.
Last seen: 2 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Icelander]
#15807631 - 02/14/12 09:32 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Human's have been making mistakes and surviving them for as long as we've been here. Fact is that nobody knows what will happen with us and when. Of course we will go most likely at some point but it may have nothing to do with what we do on earth.
Shit I've been hoping for the end of the human race for many years and so far I'm very disappointed.
You know what would be funny? If we don't actually die and we're stuck on some weird time loop in space. For eternally we discuss what will happen to us when we die.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,604
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: BlueCoyote]
#15807716 - 02/14/12 09:58 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
If we are forced to depend/rely on what we are able to do because the self regenerating eco-system of our planet is destroyed, only maybe an asteroid can prevent us from a long time of suffering ahead of most humans in the future because of economical dictatorship.
And just think, I'm too old to give a shit.  I finally got that lucky break.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Krackatus
Junglist
Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 289
Loc: UK 
Last seen: 7 hours, 58 minutes
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: 4896744]
#15809799 - 02/14/12 05:45 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
iThink said:
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"I thought I knew a lot about psychedelics before I encountered DMT, it showed me that I knew virtually nothing" - Terence McKenna
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