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 OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor
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 Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Rahz]
#15778964 - 02/08/12 12:00 PM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Perhaps. But perhaps not.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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 Desert Elf
Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 668
Last seen: 1 day, 14 minutes
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Rahz]
#15779014 - 02/08/12 12:10 PM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Perhaps. But perhaps not.
Consider that you are what you are, and (by my guess) you subjectively feel like that. Unless you believe we are somehow different from all the other physical 'things' in the world, then why wouldn't you extend this assumption to all things?
After all, you assume it for other people you meet. Even though you cant escape 'yourself' in order to take a peek from another perspective.
Perhaps not though... I concur. 
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Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,639
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Desert Elf] 1
#15779175 - 02/08/12 12:47 PM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Desert Elf said:
I totally agree. If you followed closely you would have seen that we established that the higher mechanisms of consciousness are not simply electrical force but a complex interplay of fields. Sort of like a fountain (rather than a bundled up hose.)
You seem to be going into more detail on various portions of the brain and their interactions. All I wanted to establish was the that the EM fields in themselves are consciousness, the complex patterns and interaction (of which I am no expert) of these fields are just higher modes of conscious function, caused by numerous brain processes.
My answer to the 'hard problem' is that these fields alone 'feel' as they are.. simply a property of the physical world. So when a meaningful complex 'fountain' of activity is taking place.. it follows that it just 'feels' like us.
Dont get me wrong I am not a neurologist.. haha. I do find this all extremely interesting.
I got to the point of thinking that the interference of electrical waves (not exactly fields but propagating oscillations of fields) are the crux of the elusive 'engram', and that the procession of them is the stream of consciousness.
an engram is basically the key to the image (neuro-sensory gestalt image) that created it, so that when the key happens again, the image resurfaces in mind...
well when I got to that understanding, it seemed that the pattern might be portable, transportable and resolvable on another substrate... and yes it can be used to make another brain have mental contents with similar objects but not with the same memory. (cat & people vision experiments etc...)
anyway,
I had thought that if a standing wave of that complexity could somehow be preserved then we could have a basis for ghosts, or diembodied spirits and what have you ...
or at least you could have wonderful activations in anything like mucous that was alive...
but
as the thought experiment proceeds,
we see that the electrical interference pattern (conscious energy field) is very dependent upon substrate (non-extant without) or there is no procession or sequence or stream - and consciousness really does stream.
the patterns of energies in the cortex, mean nothing when not in the cortex.
it is the very connection to the body through that cortex that makes the thing real.
it is the body is the prime mover, even in quadriplegics.
so just the field pattern, well - as critical a component it may be, it totally needs the brain to make it consciously stream, otherwise, it lasts only a moment and connects with nothing else except entropy.
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~~~~~
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Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,198
Last seen: 3 hours, 6 minutes
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Desert Elf] 1
#15779295 - 02/08/12 01:09 PM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Unless you believe we are somehow different from all the other physical 'things' in the world, then why wouldn't you extend this assumption to all things?
Things have differences. For all I know consciousness could be something that originates on the cellular level. It's easy to imagine that a bacterium feels stimulus, but not so easy to imagine a rock feels stimulus. Form creates function, so unless we want to hold a smug mystic point of view, the forms need further investigation. It could be the function of consciousness takes place within the EM field, or on all level and all expressions. Then again, taking a look at the idea of the sub-conscious, perhaps it does take complex machinery for consciousness to form as RGV says.
It is mystical to me, but that's not an indication I know what I'm talking about.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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Ferdinando
Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 565
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Rahz]
#15787291 - 02/10/12 04:16 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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I like to read your posts and let it sink in
it takes a while
I may stop
and let it manifest or take root
and then it grows
seems natural
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Don't be mad, there's no reason to
We are all reflections of our surroundings
Breathe
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JahLive
Stranger
Registered: 02/10/12
Posts: 4
Last seen: 3 days, 20 hours
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Ferdinando]
#15800344 - 02/12/12 08:58 PM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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The brain and the mind are two different things. Plants have a mind. Shrooms have a mind. Neither has a brain, but you can observe them grow and respond intelligently to their environment.
Since the brain dies but the mind doesn't, we can only conclude that the brain is the interface to the mind. But it's not a fully open interface. Parts of it are blocked, and psychadelics help to unblock the blocked parts.
What we call consciousness is a state of the interface, not the mind.
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Philosophical
Psychonaut
Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 9
Loc: ausfag
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: JahLive]
#15801302 - 02/13/12 12:13 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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We are limited by our atomic make up, it is possible that we cannot perceive the true reality of the intangible consciousnesses because simply we have not evolved to the standpoint to provide the TOE (Theory of Everything). Our source can be linked to the phenomenon of a exploding star. I think we will only be able to provide a solid answer once we can understand this cosmos (not just the chemical reactions of it, but worm holes and black holes). There is something more than the chemical reaction in my belief, I mean it is the cosmos, its fucking awesome. If all there is to life is chemical reaction we can conclude that consciousness is the result of a chemical reaction.
At this point in time I conclude consciousness is God.
This goes back in history when people didn't have a explanation for something then it is god, or the hand of god.
What is God? An eternal energy which is not bound to the laws of nature but is part of nature.
Maybe consciousness is not bound to the laws of nature. We are bound to the laws of nature, we cannot perceive infinity gentlemen. But we are a biological machine inhabited by a soul/consciousness ( I state this because it hasn't be proven or disproved and whats more beautiful and available to us then Hope, Love and Understanding).
This thread is futile in a sense that the subject at hand is either a result of chemical reactions or god.
We cannot map the consciousness because it can be possible that it is made as the result of the total collection of molecules which make up everything and we come to the conclusion once again that everything is God.
We are the essence of God. We will maybe never be able to perceive the ultimate reality, all we can do now in our insignificant lifespan is hope and speculate. Hey their might just be an afterlife and we will be like ohhhh, haha we weren't even close.
We are just a way for the cosmos to know itself - Carl Sagan
I think this is a Deus ex machina left in the hands for a more advanced civilization to solve. I assume, The Human race will destroy itself eventually due to the mass production of weaponry and pollution. We might never be a type 1 species, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_reactors#Japan.
Edited by Philosophical (02/13/12 07:44 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,639
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Philosophical]
#15801745 - 02/13/12 04:23 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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god is the ZERO in emotional math.
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~~~~~
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 23,674
Loc: Red Panda Village
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Philosophical]
#15801815 - 02/13/12 05:25 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Philosophical said:
I mean lets face facts, The Human race will destroy itself. We will never be a type 1 species, but hey prove me wrong.
Heres my prove, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_reactors#Japan
A species that does this in is such a quantity will not survive.
Ahh, I understand, you're comparing us to that other species that built nuclear reactors and, due to the quantity installed, did not survive. 
You know, it's not hard to say "because of this reason, I have a lot of doubt that humans will survive". At least then it's an accurate statement.
Acting as if your opinion is a fact (it isn't), providing for us proof (it isn't), and concluding that humans will not survive as if you've actually determined this (you haven't) makes you less able to actually understand what's happening.
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 3,635
Last seen: 8 hours, 56 minutes
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: fireworks_god] 1
#15802399 - 02/13/12 09:52 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
Philosophical said:
I mean lets face facts, The Human race will destroy itself. We will never be a type 1 species, but hey prove me wrong.
Heres my prove, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_reactors#Japan
A species that does this in is such a quantity will not survive.
Ahh, I understand, you're comparing us to that other species that built nuclear reactors and, due to the quantity installed, did not survive.
You know, it's not hard to say "because of this reason, I have a lot of doubt that humans will survive". At least then it's an accurate statement.
Acting as if your opinion is a fact (it isn't), providing for us proof (it isn't), and concluding that humans will not survive as if you've actually determined this (you haven't) makes you less able to actually understand what's happening.
The diversity of human culture, and eventually the entire human race, will be thrown into ruin by Genghis Khan by the end of this, the 13th century. Here's my proof. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions
whoops, just had a flashback to my past life as a conquered Asiatic pessimist.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,604
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Philosophical]
#15802409 - 02/13/12 09:57 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Human's have been making mistakes and surviving them for as long as we've been here. Fact is that nobody knows what will happen with us and when. Of course we will go most likely at some point but it may have nothing to do with what we do on earth.
Shit I've been hoping for the end of the human race for many years and so far I'm very disappointed. 
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 5,116
Loc: Between
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Philosophical]
#15802559 - 02/13/12 10:47 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Philosophical said:
[...]What is God? An eternal energy which is not bound to the laws of nature.[...]
No.
edit: God and nature/all is one and the same. No separation needed. In history, the catholic church even defined the laws of nature as the laws of god because only a trickster (/heretic) would be able to defy them 
Edited by BlueCoyote (02/13/12 10:57 AM)
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 5,116
Loc: Between
Last seen: 1 day, 4 hours
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Icelander]
#15802570 - 02/13/12 10:51 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Human's have been making mistakes and surviving them for as long as we've been here. Fact is that nobody knows what will happen with us and when. Of course we will go most likely at some point but it may have nothing to do with what we do on earth.
Shit I've been hoping for the end of the human race for many years and so far I'm very disappointed.
If we are forced to depend/rely on what we are able to do because the self regenerating eco-system of our planet is destroyed, only maybe an asteroid can prevent us from a long time of suffering ahead of most humans in the future because of economical dictatorship.
Edited by BlueCoyote (02/13/12 10:58 AM)
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 1,389
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: BlueCoyote]
#15806909 - 02/14/12 03:31 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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SPEAK ENGLISH!!
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"The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic ideas (the characterological lie about reality) and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels lost. And this is the simple truth - that to live is to feel lost - he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked." - Ernest Becker
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 1,389
Last seen: 18 hours, 57 minutes
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Icelander]
#15806915 - 02/14/12 03:34 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Human's have been making mistakes and surviving them for as long as we've been here. Fact is that nobody knows what will happen with us and when. Of course we will go most likely at some point but it may have nothing to do with what we do on earth.
Shit I've been hoping for the end of the human race for many years and so far I'm very disappointed.
all life will eventually be wiped out so there's no reason to be upset.
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"The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic ideas (the characterological lie about reality) and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels lost. And this is the simple truth - that to live is to feel lost - he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked." - Ernest Becker
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4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 15 days, 19 hours
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: blingbling]
#15807587 - 02/14/12 09:17 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Human's have been making mistakes and surviving them for as long as we've been here. Fact is that nobody knows what will happen with us and when. Of course we will go most likely at some point but it may have nothing to do with what we do on earth.
Shit I've been hoping for the end of the human race for many years and so far I'm very disappointed.
all life will eventually be wiped out so there's no reason to be upset.
This seems likely, but so does the possibility of it all repeating itself.
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Live your Life! 
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White Beard
Venerable White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 2,318
Loc: In the forest somewhere.
Last seen: 2 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: Icelander]
#15807631 - 02/14/12 09:32 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Human's have been making mistakes and surviving them for as long as we've been here. Fact is that nobody knows what will happen with us and when. Of course we will go most likely at some point but it may have nothing to do with what we do on earth.
Shit I've been hoping for the end of the human race for many years and so far I'm very disappointed.
You know what would be funny? If we don't actually die and we're stuck on some weird time loop in space. For eternally we discuss what will happen to us when we die.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,604
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: BlueCoyote]
#15807716 - 02/14/12 09:58 AM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
If we are forced to depend/rely on what we are able to do because the self regenerating eco-system of our planet is destroyed, only maybe an asteroid can prevent us from a long time of suffering ahead of most humans in the future because of economical dictatorship.
And just think, I'm too old to give a shit.  I finally got that lucky break.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Krackatus
Junglist
Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 289
Loc: UK 
Last seen: 7 hours, 58 minutes
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Re: Brain and Consciousness in a nutshell [Re: 4896744]
#15809799 - 02/14/12 05:45 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
iThink said:
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"I thought I knew a lot about psychedelics before I encountered DMT, it showed me that I knew virtually nothing" - Terence McKenna
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