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 sof4r0ckeRs1984
Alice and Bob
 
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 dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis
#15711083 - 01/24/12 09:44 AM (4 months, 3 days ago) |
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Hi there, I just wondered if things like big mushrooms/rhizomorphic growth etc are dominant or recessive genotypes with cubes.
Maybe there are some biologists around who can answer this?
Greetz
--------------------
The Horrors... Really bad example of dosage, set and setting.
[quote]starfire_xes said:
Don't worry about being ugly. Beauty is only skin deep.
Ugly goes all the way to the bone....
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 total
Post Office Tyvek Advocator
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: sof4r0ckeRs1984]
#15711542 - 01/24/12 11:50 AM (4 months, 3 days ago) |
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This doesnt belong in Advanced Mycology.
Plus i dont think you have much basic knowledge on genetics or mycology, because your question really doesnt make sense.
Also, mycologist study fungi...Not Biologists...
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straightedge
Element Zero Anomaly
Registered: 09/24/11
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: total]
#15712977 - 01/24/12 05:44 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
total said:
This doesnt belong in Advanced Mycology.
Plus i dont think you have much basic knowledge on genetics or mycology, because your question really doesnt make sense.
Also, mycologist study fungi...Not Biologists...
Is that just because you don't understand the question?\
And biology would be a superset of mycology.
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total
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: straightedge]
#15713992 - 01/24/12 09:12 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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sof4r0ckeRs1984
Alice and Bob
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: total]
#15714665 - 01/25/12 01:06 AM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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Come on guys, I don't want a nerd fight. I have a lot of biological common knowledge, plus I know about the mendelian laws of inheritance. Do I have to be a doctor in biology to get this simple question answered?
Just help me with that question.
--------------------
The Horrors... Really bad example of dosage, set and setting.
[quote]starfire_xes said:
Don't worry about being ugly. Beauty is only skin deep.
Ugly goes all the way to the bone....
[/quote]
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total
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: sof4r0ckeRs1984]
#15714671 - 01/25/12 01:11 AM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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Then i would say this...
No "rhizomorphic growth" isnt all genetics...
Mycelium changes from rhizo to non-rhizo based on various conditions...
Such as food and temp...
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Nobitte
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: total]
#15722556 - 01/26/12 07:28 PM (4 months, 18 hours ago) |
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The propensity to develop rhizomorphic mycellium based on environmental conditions would most certainly have some root in the genetics of the organism.
Unfortunately, discerning any patterns in these(traits) would likely require some laborious research (And genetics is really dull)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK21421/ - This article discusses inheritance of certain genes in various organisms (including ascomycete fungi... i think), should serve as a nice little primer if you haven't found anything to read on the subject yet.
Apologies in advance for my doe-eyed ignorance, enthusiasm and for the bump.
Curiosity should be rewarded, not chastised!
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First we must learn...
Then... WE CAN TEACH 
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senorcafe
pass the wasabi
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: Nobitte]
#15726572 - 01/27/12 06:11 PM (3 months, 30 days ago) |
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i believe (and although im a noobly noob im a di heart mycophile who lives by a strict code of morels) if you wanna play with mushie genetics,
- work out monokaryon cultures
- run a PCR reaction and then a gel (i dont know where you get the right start codes for the specific genes you wanted)
- once genotypes are know cross two monokaryons together or a mono with MS
- or go old school mendelin pick your fruits with desired traits and work to a monokaryon culture then cross breed, or just take a print from the best fruit everytime and grow it out.
--------------------
hallucigens dont cause psychedelics, psychedelics cause hallucinations
if you can you should -senorcafe
im so stoned i could eat kitty litter because its crunchy-glenn brace
little brown mushroom-so hard to identify-look alikes common
varied habitats-the mycophile wonders-edible deadly
underneath blue sky-you spread from grass to tree line-popping up when rains
little brown mushroom-maybe one day i shall know-who you really are
Edited by senorcafe (01/27/12 06:13 PM)
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sof4r0ckeRs1984
Alice and Bob
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: senorcafe]
#15726767 - 01/27/12 06:57 PM (3 months, 30 days ago) |
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Hmmm...
The life cycle of shrooms says that the two nuclei of dikaryotic mycelium only melt shortly before the formation of baisdiospores. Then I guess it doubles itself so there will be two diploid nuclei which divide into four haploid nuclei. Or maybe after the Karyogamy they divide into two haploid nuclei and then double...
Does somebody know how exactly it functions?
I also wondered how the mixing of the genomes during karyogamy functions, because in my imagination it will all be messed up
--------------------
The Horrors... Really bad example of dosage, set and setting.
[quote]starfire_xes said:
Don't worry about being ugly. Beauty is only skin deep.
Ugly goes all the way to the bone....
[/quote]
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Nobitte
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: sof4r0ckeRs1984]
#15727162 - 01/27/12 08:48 PM (3 months, 30 days ago) |
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I wish i could lend you my textbooks... its all in front of me, but i cannot be bothered retyping it...
So here is a picture that sums up the lifecycle really well, i hope this helps;
Source: http://www.desktopclass.com/education/fafsc/classification-of-fungi-part-2-f-sc-biology-chapter-8.html
Im sure you have read the wikipedia on basidiomycota, but here it is anyway, specifically the part on life cycles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basidiomycota#Typical_life-cycle
If you're having trouble grasping it from there i would advise reviewing mitosis/meiosis.
--------------------
First we must learn...
Then... WE CAN TEACH
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sof4r0ckeRs1984
Alice and Bob
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: Nobitte]
#15728142 - 01/28/12 02:53 AM (3 months, 30 days ago) |
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Yeah I've seen it before.
When I thought about it yesterday sitting on the shitter I realized how caryogamy happens:
The two haploid nuclei unite and the chromosomes that belong to each other mix informations, then they separate again to form haploid nuclei again, that's the spores. So the spores are not at all an exact representative of what their mothermushroom was, in fact thei're half of the information plus it's randomized. That makes a few trillion possibilities to mix together each time. Also you cannot control how many spores mate together by inoculation, so you start anew each time you do it, or you do it under the microscope with only two spores on agar between glasses in front of a flowhood and watch what will come out.
If there's a genome property for fast growth it might be triggered by a lot of genomes and circumstances, we obviously have no detailed information about it.
But if it was as simple as picking good mushrooms and taking sporeprints and selecting them according to properties it would seriously be awesome.
--------------------
The Horrors... Really bad example of dosage, set and setting.
[quote]starfire_xes said:
Don't worry about being ugly. Beauty is only skin deep.
Ugly goes all the way to the bone....
[/quote]
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Nobitte
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: sof4r0ckeRs1984] 1
#15728375 - 01/28/12 06:35 AM (3 months, 30 days ago) |
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Youve probably seen this before as well.
*flicks through first year work books*
Correct me if i get anything terribly wrong.
Meiosis 1 begins with/following karyogamy in basidiomycetes.
Early Prophase
- Replicated condensed chromosomes form
Prophase I
- Homologous chromosomes form
- Homologous Chromatids can cross over at this point
Metaphase I
- Kinetochores attached to poles (I think fungi have centrosomes that the spindles form from)
- Kinetochores once joined act as a single unit.
- Sister Chromatids pair and align
Anaphase + Telophase I
- Homologous chromosomes move to opposite poles, sister chromatids stay together
- Cleavage furrow forms for first seperation
Interphase II
Prophase II
Metaphase II
- Chromosomes lined up on metaphase plate
- Spindles attach to Sister Chromatids
Anaphase + Telophase II
- Sister chromatids seperate
- cells split forming 4 haploid cells
There are a mind boggling amount of potential pairs.
This is why the chap before said that you might need to engage in some PCR, maybe a little bit of chopping with restriction enzymes followed by Agarose Gel Electrophoresis.
And to be honest, unless i was being paid, i couldnt bothered, but still rather interesting to read about.
--------------------
First we must learn...
Then... WE CAN TEACH
Edited by Nobitte (01/28/12 06:48 AM)
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sof4r0ckeRs1984
Alice and Bob
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: Nobitte]
#15729859 - 01/28/12 02:41 PM (3 months, 29 days ago) |
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Wow man, that's some nice information! Thank you!
--------------------
The Horrors... Really bad example of dosage, set and setting.
[quote]starfire_xes said:
Don't worry about being ugly. Beauty is only skin deep.
Ugly goes all the way to the bone....
[/quote]
Tired of PF-Tek? Swwerts Whole Brown Rice Cakes Pictorial
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metacohl
Mycophage
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: sof4r0ckeRs1984]
#15736257 - 01/29/12 10:30 PM (3 months, 28 days ago) |
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Unless I am mistaken, good chance I am, the question of dominant vs. recessive is moot with cubes because they have haploid nuclei. Because haploid nuclei, by definition, only have one set of chromosomes there are no competing alleles... ie. Only dominant traits.
Now I have read some CRAZY shit about exchange of genetic information betwee the two individual nuclei in dikaryotic cells, but I believe this is not the same as dominant and recessive genetics.
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It's only rocket science.
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senorcafe
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: metacohl]
#15737139 - 01/30/12 06:23 AM (3 months, 28 days ago) |
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fungi are masters at being able to exchange chromosomes due to crossing over and subtle changes during mitosis and meiosis. the more random and frequent these mutations the better adaptive to the enviroment the fungi is.
when to monokaryotic hyphae "mate" the two haploid nuclei fuse to create the dikaryotic, both nuclei information shows. which then will live and die producing haploid spores
and somewhere in the cycle they become diploid?
--------------------
hallucigens dont cause psychedelics, psychedelics cause hallucinations
if you can you should -senorcafe
im so stoned i could eat kitty litter because its crunchy-glenn brace
little brown mushroom-so hard to identify-look alikes common
varied habitats-the mycophile wonders-edible deadly
underneath blue sky-you spread from grass to tree line-popping up when rains
little brown mushroom-maybe one day i shall know-who you really are
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sof4r0ckeRs1984
Alice and Bob
Registered: 07/30/10
Posts: 1,338
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: senorcafe]
#15738370 - 01/30/12 01:19 PM (3 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
metacohl said:
Now I have read some CRAZY shit about exchange of genetic information betwee the two individual nuclei in dikaryotic cells, but I believe this is not the same as dominant and recessive genetics.
Tell me moar 
Quote:
senorcafe said:
and somewhere in the cycle they become diploid?
Yes, they unite to a diploid nucleus during meiosis (see diagram above)
It's called karyogamy (gr.: the mating of cores)
--------------------
The Horrors... Really bad example of dosage, set and setting.
[quote]starfire_xes said:
Don't worry about being ugly. Beauty is only skin deep.
Ugly goes all the way to the bone....
[/quote]
Tired of PF-Tek? Swwerts Whole Brown Rice Cakes Pictorial
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metacohl
Mycophage
Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 57
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: sof4r0ckeRs1984]
#15738603 - 01/30/12 02:10 PM (3 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
sof4r0ckeRs1984 said:
Quote:
metacohl said:
Now I have read some CRAZY shit about exchange of genetic information betwee the two individual nuclei in dikaryotic cells, but I believe this is not the same as dominant and recessive genetics.
Tell me moar
Senor Cafe mentioned "Crossing Over" which usually occurs during meosis and is the exchange of genetic info between chromosomes. However, in a process called Parasexuality, crossing over can occur during mitotic divisions of a dikaryotic cell. I'm sure this isnt the only example of parasexuality, maybe someone else can chime in. I remember something about the exchange of cytoplasmic genetic elements.
--------------------
It's only rocket science.
Edited by metacohl (01/30/12 02:34 PM)
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senorcafe
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: metacohl]
#15739111 - 01/30/12 04:08 PM (3 months, 27 days ago) |
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there it is step 5 lol
and thanks i didnt know the word parasexuality i just knew it could happen
great thread
--------------------
hallucigens dont cause psychedelics, psychedelics cause hallucinations
if you can you should -senorcafe
im so stoned i could eat kitty litter because its crunchy-glenn brace
little brown mushroom-so hard to identify-look alikes common
varied habitats-the mycophile wonders-edible deadly
underneath blue sky-you spread from grass to tree line-popping up when rains
little brown mushroom-maybe one day i shall know-who you really are
|
Nobitte
Student
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Posts: 392
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: senorcafe]
#15739796 - 01/30/12 06:25 PM (3 months, 27 days ago) |
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I remember hearing in a lecture that septate hyphae can still have cytoplasmic continuity, through pores in the septa, which means that the contents of the cytosol, including some organelles have the capacity to migrate from one section to another, i do not know whether this facilitates any kind of gene exchange (i wish one of the pros would chime in and sort us all out, maybe a little lecture/seminar).
I figure that the cytoplasm and contents are migrated into new sections as it colonises more substrate/creates more hypha.
I found this!
http://www.fungionline.org.uk/3hyphae/3septa.html#septa4
In any case, having what are effectively two haploid organisms creating a single mass in symphony is something that always struck me about dikarya, i would imagine this would be done in a consistent fashion, that is to say, achieving more or less the same result in each cell(does anyone know?).
What a great topic to study  .
--------------------
First we must learn...
Then... WE CAN TEACH
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metacohl
Mycophage
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Posts: 57
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: Nobitte]
#15740454 - 01/30/12 08:43 PM (3 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Nobitte said:
I remember hearing in a lecture that septate hyphae can still have cytoplasmic continuity, through pores in the septa, which means that the contents of the cytosol, including some organelles have the capacity to migrate from one section to another, i do not know whether this facilitates any kind of gene exchange (i wish one of the pros would chime in and sort us all out, maybe a little lecture/seminar).
I figure that the cytoplasm and contents are migrated into new sections as it colonises more substrate/creates more hypha.
This is really awesome, septa would have really interesting implication for integration of genetic elements in the cytoplasm. Perhaps this is one way that the hyphal cells are able to "pass along" the genetic info obtained during anastomosis.
Quote:
In any case, having what are effectively two haploid organisms creating a single mass in symphony is something that always struck me about dikarya, i would imagine this would be done in a consistent fashion, that is to say, achieving more or less the same result in each cell(does anyone know?).
What a great topic to study .
Yes, I think the idea is that during mitotic division the two haploid nuclei remain intact and are copied in a consistent and coordinated fashion. Except..... for the mitotic crossover I mentioned earlier. I have read that mitotic crossover does not follow the coordinated process of meotic crossover.
I am going to echo the request for one of the pros to educate us on this complex topic.... I for one have about exhausted my knowledge, but not interest, on this subject.
--------------------
It's only rocket science.
Edited by metacohl (01/30/12 08:49 PM)
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senorcafe
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: metacohl]
#15741949 - 01/31/12 08:42 AM (3 months, 27 days ago) |
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from reading that i was thinking about senescence
orginisms die because (at least i read and think) everytime DNA replicates and or crossing over occurs tiny frgaments of the chromosomes become damaged. when being copied multiple times the DNA damages and we start to have weak bones hard breathing poor eyesight etc.
so since mycelium copy their haploid DNA and keep replicating it and advancing through a substrate its damaging its DNA when it turns dikaryotic it allows the mycelium extra information to keep on trucking.
eventually the dikaryotic mycelium replicates and damages its DNA to the point it dies / senecences's (lol sssssss)
and yes i wouldnt mind a pro chimeing in with a lecture
--------------------
hallucigens dont cause psychedelics, psychedelics cause hallucinations
if you can you should -senorcafe
im so stoned i could eat kitty litter because its crunchy-glenn brace
little brown mushroom-so hard to identify-look alikes common
varied habitats-the mycophile wonders-edible deadly
underneath blue sky-you spread from grass to tree line-popping up when rains
little brown mushroom-maybe one day i shall know-who you really are
|
sof4r0ckeRs1984
Alice and Bob
Registered: 07/30/10
Posts: 1,338
Loc: so fa away
Last seen: 1 month, 16 days
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: senorcafe]
#15742983 - 01/31/12 01:25 PM (3 months, 27 days ago) |
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But that's just your own thoughts, not science, isn't it?
--------------------
The Horrors... Really bad example of dosage, set and setting.
[quote]starfire_xes said:
Don't worry about being ugly. Beauty is only skin deep.
Ugly goes all the way to the bone....
[/quote]
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senorcafe
pass the wasabi
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: sof4r0ckeRs1984] 1
#15743319 - 01/31/12 02:47 PM (3 months, 26 days ago) |
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it my thoughts being a science major
and just read/took exam on DNA RNA transcriptions
my proffessor described the breaking down of DNA and how it causes aging and organ failure overtime
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hallucigens dont cause psychedelics, psychedelics cause hallucinations
if you can you should -senorcafe
im so stoned i could eat kitty litter because its crunchy-glenn brace
little brown mushroom-so hard to identify-look alikes common
varied habitats-the mycophile wonders-edible deadly
underneath blue sky-you spread from grass to tree line-popping up when rains
little brown mushroom-maybe one day i shall know-who you really are
|
 Mycelio
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: senorcafe]
#15743729 - 01/31/12 04:23 PM (3 months, 26 days ago) |
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I think your theory misses a couple of important points. There are repair mechanisms, counteracting the replication errors you cited. Of course errors will still pile up over time, but not too fast. Epigenetic errors (faulty activation/deactivation of genes) may also play a role. Then there are telomeres, limiting the number of possible cell divisions, which may be most important for senescence.
Anyway, be aware that fungi generally do not read textbooks and so most species do not follow the standard example of the fungal lifecycle. They have developed all sorts of tricks, like producing asexual spores. By fusing with hyphae from them, they introduce fresh, young, otherwise identical nuclei into the hyphal network. Also you wont find many dikaryotic mycelia in reality, usually they are heterokaryotic, having more than two types of nuclei traveling though the network. Aged nuclei will be replaced by fresh ones.
Being an amateur mycologist, I am pretty sure there are many more details, which I don't know of yet.
Carsten
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senorcafe
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: Mycelio]
#15744335 - 01/31/12 06:40 PM (3 months, 26 days ago) |
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DNAs repair system is pretty sound i do agree. but i was poking at the end of chromosomes (telomers) which over time deterioate due to replicating and just being in "the enviroment".
so dikaryotic is when the two nuclei become one? and heterokayrotic are when both nuclei are present?
lets say i had a skin cell that was heterokaryotic(nuclei from dad and one from mom) how would the cell know which genes to express from which nucleus? one would say store vitamin d while the other would say replicate. or would they work in sync because they recieve the same messages and hormones.
--------------------
hallucigens dont cause psychedelics, psychedelics cause hallucinations
if you can you should -senorcafe
im so stoned i could eat kitty litter because its crunchy-glenn brace
little brown mushroom-so hard to identify-look alikes common
varied habitats-the mycophile wonders-edible deadly
underneath blue sky-you spread from grass to tree line-popping up when rains
little brown mushroom-maybe one day i shall know-who you really are
|
sof4r0ckeRs1984
Alice and Bob
Registered: 07/30/10
Posts: 1,338
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: senorcafe]
#15746025 - 02/01/12 04:07 AM (3 months, 26 days ago) |
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Well I don't know about heterocaryotic, but dicaryotic is not when they unite. (Dicaryotic = gr. having two cores)
You mean Diploid.
--------------------
The Horrors... Really bad example of dosage, set and setting.
[quote]starfire_xes said:
Don't worry about being ugly. Beauty is only skin deep.
Ugly goes all the way to the bone....
[/quote]
Tired of PF-Tek? Swwerts Whole Brown Rice Cakes Pictorial
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Nobitte
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: sof4r0ckeRs1984]
#15746080 - 02/01/12 04:46 AM (3 months, 26 days ago) |
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From what I've read, Dikaryotic refers to there being two nuclei present, which can be both identical and not.
Heterokaryotic, as far as i can tell refers to two -different- nuclei sharing the same cell space.
By these definitions, something can be Di and Hetero karyotic, but a cell can also be Di, without being Hetero(Has two nuclei, but they are identical), however not the other way round.
For (most) mushroom cultivators though, i imagine this would all be by and large irrelevant because of the ability to select traits using cloning and isolation on agar mediums.
Im pretty sure, looking at the page i posted earlier on inheritance patterns in fungi, shows that traits that occupy homologous positions would more or less follow the same patterns you would find in other eukaryotes.
Boo hiss... someone really smart... come save me from my ignorance.
--------------------
First we must learn...
Then... WE CAN TEACH
Edited by Nobitte (02/01/12 08:36 PM)
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Mycelio
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Re: dominant/recessive properties on Psi. cubensis [Re: senorcafe]
#15746090 - 02/01/12 04:54 AM (3 months, 26 days ago) |
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Yep, with dikaryotic I meant two separate nuclei per hyphal cell, heterokaryotic describes a mycelium with two or more different nuclei present, for example morchella species often have dozens of nuclei per cell. The fruitbodies often revert to a dikaryotic state, forming most spores with one haploid nucleus, while a lower percentage has more than one nucleus per spore. I read about many other species, where mycologist always find some spores with more nuclei than expected.
Quote:
senorcafe said:
... how would the cell know which genes to express from which nucleus? one would say store vitamin d while the other would say replicate. or would they work in sync because they receive the same messages and hormones.
Good question... I haven't read about that yet, but logic tells me they must act in sync, using chemical signals. Just think of slime molds in the plasmodium stage with millions of nuclei per cell, perfectly synced. During fungal cell division and nuclear migration, it appears that one nucleus has a leading role, while the other follows.
Carsten
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