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teknix said:
You can see the double talk going on here. Making gas cheaper will not provide incentive for clean energy, that's just retarded.

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teknix said:
A PRO-ENERGY PRESIDENT

As President, Ron Paul will lead the fight to:

* Remove restrictions on drilling, so companies can tap into the vast amount of oil we have here at home.

* Repeal the federal tax on gasoline. Eliminating the federal gas tax would result in an 18 cents savings per gallon for American consumers.

* Lift government roadblocks to the use of coal and nuclear power.

* Eliminate the ineffective EPA. Polluters should answer directly to property owners in court for the damages they create – not to Washington.

* Make tax credits available for the purchase and production of alternative fuel technologies.

It’s time for a President that recognizes the free market’s power and innovative spirit by unleashing its full potential to produce affordable, environmentally sound, and reliable energy.

http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/energy/

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fireworks_god said:
He's not saying that cheaper gasoline gives incentives for clean energy. He's stating that government interference is keeping the free market from reaching it's full potential to produce these things. He's saying that the free market will sort out all of that better without government interference.

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teknix said:
You can see the double talk going on here. Making gas cheaper will not provide incentive for clean energy, that's just retarded. Obviously the people are going to buy the cheaper energy, which definitely wouldn't be the Solar Panels or Wind Turbines when gas and energy is so cheap. The way to get people to buy it is raise the gas taxes and tighter restrictions on polluters.

With more pollution there would be more smog and solar panels would be even less viable. By making Diesel cheap without taxes and taxing the shit out of gasoline, it would promote more diesel engine which are more efficient and can be run off waste. taxing gasoline and using the tax to make the diesel cheaper would in turn make our food cheaper, as well as the transportation of many other goods carried freight but maybe more expensive to drive your car to get the food if you are running gasoline.

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fireworks_god said:
He's not saying that cheaper gasoline gives incentives for clean energy. He's stating that government interference is keeping the free market from reaching it's full potential to produce these things. He's saying that the free market will sort out all of that better without government interference.

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teknix said:
And don't you fucking tell me it is not viable.

"About 81 percent of total primary energy supply in Iceland is derived from domestically produced renewable energy sources. In 2007, geothermal energy provided about 66 percent of primary energy, the share of hydropower was 15 percent, and fossil fuels (mainly oil) 19 percent.[1] The main use of geothermal energy is for space heating with the heat being distributed to buildings through extensive district-heating systems.[1] About 85% of all houses in Iceland are heated with geothermal energy.[2]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Iceland

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"According to a 2011 projection by the International Energy Agency, solar power generators may produce most of the world’s electricity within 50 years, dramatically reducing the emissions of greenhouse gases that harm the environment.[17]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy

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teknix said:
* Eliminate the ineffective EPA. Polluters should answer directly to property owners in court for the damages they create – not to Washington.
[/url]

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ChuangTzu said:

That may or may not be based on sound reasoning, but you've failed to make an argument that Paul's policies would in any way hinder the free market development of solar technology.

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qman said:
"Cheaper gas promotes more consumption, which creates more profits for oil companies."  So cheaper gas creates more profits, this is not true. It is very clear you don't not understand the energy market.

Instead of hating the energy sector, spend some time studying the law of supply and demand, the cost of reserves, the cost of exploration, ect, if will save you a lot of time.

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cateyes said:
out of all of the candidates left, i like ron paul more for his being an honest man, but his policies suck... chasing free markets that got us in the trouble we're in by moving great jobs elsewhere, that's what free markets have brought us... and his intention to with draw all military is reckless in light of the fact i hate war... we have fucked so many people over pulling our forces would create a power vacuum that would rapidly be filled by a number of countries acting in unison... we could be cut off from all outside energy sources and sanctions could begin to be placed on us among many other related issues tied to a major withdrawal... i'm the first to say let's cut back on the military but a total withdrawal from the world theater is just too fucking craaaazy!

i see modern nuclear in our future and we begin to recycle waste instead of storing it by removing the we have to be able to make a profit doing it or we just don't do it mentality, by using breeder reactors... these facilities can be easily located far outside occupied areas... and i do believe there will be advances in solar but we're just not there yet...


Kensho

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teknix said:

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qman said:
"Cheaper gas promotes more consumption, which creates more profits for oil companies."  So cheaper gas creates more profits, this is not true. It is very clear you don't not understand the energy market.

Instead of hating the energy sector, spend some time studying the law of supply and demand, the cost of reserves, the cost of exploration, ect, if will save you a lot of time.

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By reducing the governments share of the gas tax to give it to the people cheaper, which will in turn create more revenue in sales because gas is so cheap and people won't respect the use of it and use it more freely rather than sparingly. It has already been proven.

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cateyes said:
chasing free markets that got us in the trouble we're in by moving great jobs elsewhere, that's what free markets have brought us

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We haven't had a true free market in well over a hundred years.

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Mycjunky said:

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cateyes said:
chasing free markets that got us in the trouble we're in by moving great jobs elsewhere, that's what free markets have brought us

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I hear this argument all the time but it makes no sense. We haven't had a true free market in well over a hundred years. Weather it's due to import quotas set by the government, monetary policy, entitlement programs, or government intervention in the education and healthcare industries plus many more industries I don't think it's fair to blame the free market because it really doesn't exist anymore due to the above government intervention into the economy and much more. None of those things are present in a true free market economy. In order for the free market to have got us here we'd have to actually have one.

One of the major reasons for outsourcing jobs as well is the companies pay less taxes when they outsource there operations. If we did not have the above regulations increasing taxes  then companies would have more of an incentive to keep jobs inside the U.S.

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VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVTHIS!!!!VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

and exactly what would having no import quotas do? our markets would be flooded with more cheap then we have now. nobody wants what little we make now. so we do away with import quotas, who benefits? the American worker? because it's so lax now the American purchaser is well severed. what do we need more imports of? are you talking about exports??? who wants to buy our shit and who are we to tell them to buy our goods?v but you specifically said imports...

what do you mean by monetary policy? we don't have a lax enough monetary policy now? the fed hasn't had enough latitude to print money? Christ it turns out they either guaranteed, lent or gave away up to 12.8 trillion dollars without revealing it according to bloomberg news investigator bob irvy and the deceased mark pittman... interest rates to banks are what, zero %, or close to it? how much freedom do we need in monetary policies? Christ how much more lax does it have to be? and don't say taxes are too high because we're a capitalistic system and adam smith described the progressive tax structure rules that were followed up until recently...

what do you mean entitlement programs? where would our elderly be without it? and our disabled? and those in need? what do we do, just pretend they're not here? this sounds like a real recipe for tough luck, you're on your own. this sounds like a solid recipe for an extension of south america into US territories... what do entitlements that people paid into have to do with free markets? Ooohh, wait, i get it, put social security in the stock market and watch it whittle away... i mean grow... these are entitlement programs that were bought into through payroll deductions... if they didn't raid the social security trust years ago there wouldn't be a problem with it now, not that there is as desperate a problem as they claim thee is... that's it, do away with entitlements so we have a lot more money for our military... Yeaaaahhh..... that's what we need... more money for our military... right? so we can force the goods we make on others that nobody wants from us onto them... freeee markets... we already import everything we use... what aren't we importing more freely instead of opium and coke... is this what you mean???? just about every single fucking thing in my house is from somewhere else because it's not made here... and trust me, i do go out of my way to buy american when its possible...

well maybe i'll buy into education to a degree, but what do we do, do away with schools and let magnet schools teach our kids? set no standards, not that the standards set now are worth two shits... how does free markets work with education? like higher education costs aren't already exploding through the roof already? my niece just paid $375.00 for two books... i think we should shrink the department of education and leave it up to the states to establish policies with the government set to intercede if one state is clearly failing it's children and offer guidance on how successful states are doing it... Christ, if they're handling there responsibilities the states should be able to recognize where they fall short. but do you really think we'd be better off with no government standards? they need to be elevated but will a free market actually do this? because many privately owned schools have already proven its a weak system... what do you mean free markets in education?

we don't have free markets in health care????????? our family health insurance went up 11% this year....... this isn't free enough for you???? i'll grant you one thing for sure... incredible alternative/integrative therapies are out there but the AMA and FDA will fight tooth and nail against them on behalf of the pharmaceutical industry... but corporations must already have great latitude if they can prevent alternative treatments that cost $130.00 and are incredibly effective compared to $2000-2500.00 per treatment and it kills people. is this what you mean by free market? well yes, i doooo agreeeee... but right now we have a health care system that is so run away freeee i don't know how much free it can beeeeee!!!!... are you talking about Obama care? that isn't gonna last. once Obama is out of office that shit is gone... in the mean time it allowed children up to the age of 27 to be on their parents policies... who did this hurt? the free market? let the insurance company get away and leave a great segment of our society without insurance? it all comes out in the wash because a hospital can't refuse treatment. how much more free does our health care system have to be ?  if a hospital provides free health care it raises prices on the rest of us next year... example please...

and the many more industries meaning ones that have to answer to the epa, to the already lax fda? what industries are being held back by agencies? the department of energy is one problem i can see by preventing us from implementing modern nuclear power... what are some more examples you can come up with?  and can you expand on the ones you already pointed out? do we want to pull a perry and do away with the department of the ooh ooh ooh ooh oh what is it? what am i thinking of? yeah, lets do away with agencies that protect us... fucking great idea!!! one example please?

without some rules what determines the standards? can i start selling mercury as a cure for headaches like they did in the past? can i pollute my ass off in neighborhoods? can i import lead painted toys for our children to play with? is this Cooool with U?

how free does it have to be? because you know what? unfortunately it will take a complete dismantling of all federal agencies before a company is willing to do business here... nahhhh... it's going to require us to be willing to work for $2.00 per hour toooo!!!!... like look at Nike... i just got done reading an article where a US film maker spent 1 month working in a Nike factory... the film will be due out this year... i'm making a note to let you know when it's out... the buzz is it's already expected to bring in critical acclaim.. you see the dude slept on floors and worked fucked up hours, like 16 hours and slept with rats and roaches... watched people get beaten women sexually assaulted... but he made $1.25 per hour... yeah.. big money!!! and you want you want more free imports....

Team Sweat is an International Coilition of Consumers, Investors and Workers Committed to Ending the Injustice in Nike's Sweatshops all around the World.... By marshaling the energy of a decade and a half of organizing on the Nike sweatshop issue, Team Sweat is striving to ensure that all workers who produce Nike products are paid a living wage.

WHAT IS AND WHO STARTED TEAM SWEAT??? THE FILM........

Nike Sweatshops: Behind the Swoosh~~~Seriously... Watch This Video

is this what you mean by relaxing imports? tariffs? what? who is making out if we bend over more backwards then we do now?


Kensho

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cateyes said:

and exactly what would having no import quotas do? our markets would be flooded with more cheap then we have now. nobody wants what little we make now. so we do away with import quotas, who benefits? the American worker? because it's so lax now the American purchaser is well severed. what do we need more imports of? are you talking about exports??? who wants to buy our shit and who are we to tell them to buy our goods?v but you specifically said imports...

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what do you mean by monetary policy? we don't have a lax enough monetary policy now? the fed hasn't had enough latitude to print money? Christ it turns out they either guaranteed, lent or gave away up to 12.8 trillion dollars without revealing it according to bloomberg news investigator bob irvy and the deceased mark pittman... interest rates to banks are what, zero %, or close to it? how much freedom do we need in monetary policies? Christ how much more lax does it have to be? and don't say taxes are too high because we're a capitalistic system and adam smith described the progressive tax structure rules that were followed up until recently...

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we don't have free markets in health care????????? our family health insurance went up 11% this year....... this isn't free enough for you???? i'll grant you one thing for sure... incredible alternative/integrative therapies are out there but the AMA and FDA will fight tooth and nail against them on behalf of the pharmaceutical industry... but corporations must already have great latitude if they can prevent alternative treatments that cost $130.00 and are incredibly effective compared to $2000-2500.00 per treatment and it kills people. is this what you mean by free market? well yes, i doooo agreeeee... but right now we have a health care system that is so run away freeee i don't know how much free it can beeeeee!!!!... are you talking about Obama care? that isn't gonna last. once Obama is out of office that shit is gone... in the mean time it allowed children up to the age of 27 to be on their parents policies... who did this hurt? the free market? let the insurance company get away and leave a great segment of our society without insurance? it all comes out in the wash because a hospital can't refuse treatment. how much more free does our health care system have to be ?  if a hospital provides free health care it raises prices on the rest of us next year... example please...

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without some rules what determines the standards? can i start selling mercury as a cure for headaches like they did in the past? can i pollute my ass off in neighborhoods? can i import lead painted toys for our children to play with? is this Cooool with U?

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Mycjunky said:

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cateyes said:

without some rules what determines the standards? can i start selling mercury as a cure for headaches like they did in the past? can i pollute my ass off in neighborhoods? can i import lead painted toys for our children to play with? is this Cooool with U?

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No you could not because you would be sued in civil court for these kind of practices and go under. Having a free market doesn't mean the government can't stop criminal activity.

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cateyes said:

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Without import quotas prices would be cheaper on many goods that are artificially higher due to the import quotas. The import quotas cause there to be a lack of competition. Lets take the sugar quota for example, this allows current companies in the sugar industry to make more money because there is less competition, and they can raise there prices due to the lower amount of supply. This cost every single American more money for sugar or products with sugar which is why corn syrup is used so often, and it may be a small amount more but if you add up all the other industries affected by import quotas it becomes a significant amount more money Americans spend per year.

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try blaming sugar prices on commodity trading... yeah... one of the most heavily manipulated markets in the world... and don't try to bullshit me they aren't because my wife's friend works in commodities and the shit she has told us is beyond the fucking pale... sugar!!! what about Nike sneakers?

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The Fed wouldn't even be able to print money the way they do in a free market economy. I don't understand your point here. In a true free market they wouldn't even exist. The Fed is one of the worst forms of regulation of the economy that there is. Your argument more proves my point then anything.

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those who support the free markets prop up the fed... in this free market would there be a progressive tax rate? because if there wasn't and the wealthy weren't spending their money as fast as they made it there would no currency flowing through the economy after awhile... what's it called in economics? velocity? all the wealth would quickly be in the hands of the few in the position to accumulate... while the rest just spent to remain alive... why do you think the fed had to print money all of these years? because of excessive government spending? OK... they spent money, where is it? why did the money dry up? i try to look at things in simple terms, you know why? because when you do that you tend to come to the right conclusions... what caused velocity dry up? what is used to stimulate velocity? printing more money, that's how...

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No we do not have a free market in health care at all. Medicare and Medicaid both aren't examples of a free market economy as well as the federal HMO programs. Both of these appear to help patients when in reality they are driving up the cost of healthcare overall. No one is suggesting people go without healthcare, but before government got involved no one was anyways there are charities and churches that will pay for people who need assistance. These programs remove competition in the market again, without competition there is no incentive to worry about cost, which ends up meaning the cost goes up, and the American tax payer has to make up for it.

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this absolutely makes no sense at all...... if there were really churches and charities that covered these costs in the past why was it necessary to create the programs? shit, i do charity work for the salvation army taking care of the refrigeration, air conditioning and heating systems for two facilities... they pay for the parts and a friend and i do preventative maintenance work in order to prevent emergencies situations... they buy the parts under accounts we helped them set up... they have squat to pay for health care... their lunch program is pasta and some ridiculous grape drink... where the hell are you coming up with charity work... the catholic church who is in the best position to help is closing parishes here in new jersey that serve the poor because they are losing money!!!!!! one of their large buildings in a parish in Newark new jersey was sold to a developer for squat!!!! what charities are we talking here??? if prices in medicine didn't increase double digits each year there wouldn't be a problem... why does health care go up each year? why does anything have to go up each year? why does inflation even exist? the entire concept of inflation blows my mind... why does inflation exist? because costs go up? that's called inflation... i asked this question during the first of two economic classless i took during advance school and the professor got my point right away. probably because he was a closet socialist... if hospital pricing didn't go up the medicare costs would have remained stable... dude, do you realize your purchasing power is worth less today then it did back in the 80's...even further back then this... wages have completely stagnated when you consider the costs of inflation... do you buy your own groceries or does mommy do it? just today my sister in law was complaining that a block of mozzarella cheese cost her over $6.00, a year ago  it cost her $4.00 she said... why did they remove food from the calculation for inflation?  food among other essentials... when they did this years ago my dad said watch what happens now...... and he fucking nailed it!!! why is there inflation??? school me!!! you're blaming federal HMO's?

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without some rules what determines the standards? can i start selling mercury as a cure for headaches like they did in the past? can i pollute my ass off in neighborhoods? can i import lead painted toys for our children to play with? is this Cooool with U?

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No you could not because you would be sued in civil court for these kind of practices and go under. Having a free market doesn't mean the government can't stop criminal activity.

I do believe that regulation has it's place. The problem with regulation though is it needs to be repeatedly questioned and the American people really aren't active enough in politics or even care enough to focus on what programs we should keep and what we shouldn't. The general consensus in the U.S. lately seems to be that more government programs are better without understanding these programs drive up costs in the end. Where is the incentive for these federal programs to actually improve anything? If these programs aren't performing well the typical response by the congress is to throw more money at it, that's not how things actually work in the real world.

I think your a little confused about what a free market economy is.

I'll try to respond to all the other stuff you posted eventually but I'm cutting it close on time.

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how could you sue me if you decided to eat my mercury? i didn't twist your arm!!! and because there are no regulations like the Koch brothers want i can dump all my shit in your neighborhood air... i can do whatever the fuck i want... i could import all of the toys that contain poisons because you'll never know and i can say "shit!!! i had no clue!!!!" if you did discover... what criminal activity? Ooohhh i get it... get rid of all of the employee's and operate under the current guidelines. sure. that will work... if incoming presidents didn't fire federal judges because they were prosecuting cronies we would have been examples for others to consider before they tried to trip others over... look at the big banks... in china they execute men who did the things that some of our bankers did... execute!!!! my dad was talking about several instances this occurred just last weekend... and you can't get any more free a market when the banks can create derivatives that rival the total free wealth of the world itself!!!!!!! there's a fucking free market for ya! derivative markets worth hundreds of trillions of dollars... fucking hundreds of trillions of dollars... do your home work pal... and don't try to assume that i don't understand the markets... put a fucking leash on the banks and we wouldn't be in this position...

youtell me what i don't know about free markets... i understand the perfect model you DREAM of but who are you trying to kid? who is going to let you ruin their game? what kind of movement are we talking about here? because right off the top the only one's who will suffer are the weak... and if you try and trip over big money in any way where they stand to lose control they will pull the rug right out from under you... am i a conspiracy theorist? i know the game better then you'll ever know... i already tried to explain that my wife's friend is deep in the belly, she see;s how things are manipulated... she warned my wife about he sub prime crisis 3 months before it really started to make waves... we sold 5 rentals before the prices began to drop.. now if she knew this based on the buzzzzz can you imagine who else knew? could you imagine who actually caused it? because it was done with intent... here,... let me put on my tin hat... you people are so blind to this mess we're in...

and now you're saying corporations won't exist in this free market... well don't hold your breath bud because not only does the supreme court recognize a corporation as if it were an individual they can now deeply involve themselves in the election process... thank you supreme court ruling!!!! yeah!!!! free markets!!!!!!!!1@@!!!!


Kensho

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In my mind the most important issue we are facing along with foreign policy is the Fed it needs to be at the very least audited if not eliminated completely. Show me another candidate that will actually do something to stop the Fed from operating entirely uncontrolled and I'd consider supporting them but the fact is there aren't any others that would actually do it.

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We should start by ending subsidies for oil companies. And we should never, ever go to war to protect our perceived oil interests. If oil were allowed to rise to its natural price, there would be tremendous market incentives to find alternate sources of energy. At the same time, I can’t support government 'investment' in alternative sources either, for this is not investment at all.

Government cannot invest, it can only redistribute resources. Just look at the mess government created with ethanol. Congress decided that we needed more biofuels, and the best choice was ethanol from corn. So we subsidized corn farmers at the expense of others, and investment in other types of renewables was crowded out.

Now it turns out that corn ethanol is inefficient, and it actually takes more energy to produce the fuel than you get when you burn it.

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zappaisgod said:
There are reasonable concerns and then there is absolutely insane nonsense.  Prime examples of insane nonsense are squelching the XL pipeline and banning Edison light bulbs.

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clam_dude said:
Why is it insane to "Ban Edison light bulbs" ?  It is not the kind of light bulb that has been banned, but rather a new efficiency standard has been set.  Those bulbs just don't meet the new standard.

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clam_dude said:

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zappaisgod said:
There are reasonable concerns and then there is absolutely insane nonsense.  Prime examples of insane nonsense are squelching the XL pipeline and banning Edison light bulbs.

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Why is it insane to "Ban Edison light bulbs" ?  It is not the kind of light bulb that has been banned, but rather a new efficiency standard has been set.  Those bulbs just don't meet the new standard.

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luvdemshrooms said:
LED's are still way too expensive for many people. Should they sit in the dark?

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well maybe i'll buy into education to a degree, but what do we do, do away with schools and let magnet schools teach our kids? set no standards, not that the standards set now are worth two shits... how does free markets work with education? like higher education costs aren't already exploding through the roof already? my niece just paid $375.00 for two books... i think we should shrink the department of education and leave it up to the states to establish policies with the government set to intercede if one state is clearly failing it's children and offer guidance on how successful states are doing it... Christ, if they're handling there responsibilities the states should be able to recognize where they fall short. but do you really think we'd be better off with no government standards? they need to be elevated but will a free market actually do this? because many privately owned schools have already proven its a weak system... what do you mean free markets in education?

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YawnGG said:
Really it is a vast subject... as is anything to do with the current state of government.. I am a firm believer in Dr.Paul. I don't have a job and spend many hours a day educating myself on the corruption of this government as well as studying the history of corruption of all governments.

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Our founding fathers warned us about a central bank controlling our money supply over and over again

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The First Bank of the United States was a central bank, chartered for a term of twenty years, by the United States Congress on February 25, 1791. Establishment of the Bank was included in a three-part expansion of Federal fiscal and monetary power (along with a federal mint and excise taxes) championed by Alexander Hamilton, first Secretary of the Treasury. Hamilton believed a central bank was necessary to stabilize and improve the nation's credit, and to improve handling of the financial business of the United States government under the newly enacted Constitution.

Officially proposed to the first session of the First Congress in 1790, Hamilton's Bank faced widespread resistance from opponents of increased Federal power. Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson and James Madison led the opposition, which claimed that the bank was unconstitutional, and that it benefited merchants and investors at the expense of the majority of the population.

The First Bank building is now a National Historic Landmark located in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania within Independence National Historical Park.

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In regards to Paul's quote, It doesn't address my concern in regards to Coal Power. Ethanol was pushed because it can be used in combustion engines that our economy produces. The Research has lead to many breakthroughs in regards to Biofuel, such as using waste instead of food to produce fuel.

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YawnGG said:
In your own post you mentioned that is unconstitutional, our founding fathers wrote constitution very carefully to try and stop this from happending. Thank you for proving my point! They also warned about it over and over again...

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Maybe you should go back and reread what he posted, because it's plainly obvious that you failed to understand what was written. No where in the post does it say that it is unconstitutional; it specifically says "Thomas Jefferson and James Madison led the opposition, which claimed that the bank was unconstitutional".

Get it? The opposition claimed it was unconstitutional. It doesn't say that the bank was unconstitutional. You were so eager to have your point of view confirmed that you didn't even pay attention to what the post actually meant.

The totally amazing thing about this whole matter is that you once again say "our founding fathers wrote constitution very carefully to try and stop this from happening". Don't you know who Alexander Hamilton is? The first five words of his entry in Wikipedia state "Alexander Hamilton was a Founding Father".
In the future, learn which founding fathers held your point of view and cite them specifically, not "our founding fathers", because doing so only reveals just how little you actually know about the subject.

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YawnGG said:
No I read it just fine.

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No, you said the quotation said that it was unconstitutional and that it thereby proved your point.
As anyone can tell, it only mentioned that the opposition claimed it was unconstitutional.

Now you want to pretend otherwise and claim you read it just fine? If you read it just fine, then show us all where it said that it was unconstiutional.

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Ok we have two extremely prolific, highly quoted and respected people, vs one guy who was never heard from again. Who is more reconized as our founding fathers?

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Ahh, I understand, your metric for determining who is a real founding father is how often they are quoted.
You can't rewrite history. I could care less who you recognize as a founding father and who you don't - it doesn't change who actually was instrumental to the formation of the United States and who actually was a founding father.

Perhaps you weren't aware that George Washington typically favored Hamilton's policies over those of Thomas Jefferson, that he usually sided with Hamilton in making his decisions as President, that Washington was so unhappy with the way in which Jefferson attempted to undermine Hamilton that he never spoke to him again after Jefferson volunteered to leave his Cabinet? Maybe you were aware that he is the President that signed into law the establishment of the central bank in question?
Feel free to explain to us all why George Washington is less recognized as a founding father.

Next time, specify which founding fathers you are referring to when you say they thought this or agreed with that. As it's quite clear, key founding fathers didn't hold the same opinions as you on this issue. You have no justification for continuing to say otherwise.

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Seuss said:
Generally, historians give James Madison the bulk of credit for authoring the majority of the US Constitution, including the Bill of Rights.

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YawnGG said:
No I read it just fine.

Ok we have two extremely prolific, highly quoted and respected people, vs one guy who was never heard from again. Who is more reconized as our founding fathers? Anyway. this is completely off topic.. And incase you people havent realized anytime theres large amounts of money with a decision to be made, money always wins.. So ya.. I stand by everything I said, but lets sit here and argue symantics because thats so much fun.

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Seuss said:
> I would like to point out that the constitution was written by Thomas Jefferson

Really?  I bet Gouverneur Morris, John Dickinson, John Adams, Thomas Paine, Edmund Randolph, James Madison, Roger Sherman, James Wilson, and George Wythe would be pretty pissed at getting shafted credit.  Generally, historians give James Madison the bulk of credit for authoring the majority of the US Constitution, including the Bill of Rights.

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meams said:
He's clearly a bit dilusional

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YawnGG said:
fireworks "GOD": I would like to point out that the constitution was written by Thomas Jefferson, the very man attempting to stop the centralized bank.

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Well, others have already demonstrated how wrong you are with this statement. You futher mention that Thomas Jefferson wrote the first draft of the Constitution, but this is incorrect, as he wasn't involved with the actual writing of the Constitution. You've clearly confused his role in writing the draft for the Declaration of Independence.

I see you're not so eager to dismiss George Washington's role as a founding father the way you are willing to ignorantly portray Hamilton as not "really being recognized" as being one.

At least now you've learned to refer to Thomas Jefferson and James Madison by name, instead of mistakenly referring to "our forefathers" as if they all held your point of view on the matter, which is all I was ever intending to demonstrate to you. I could care less about whatever other point you're trying to prove in this thread.

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YawnGG said:
Hey im only human, I still stand behind it.

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YawnGG said:
Thanks for taking a serious interest, lets put these games behind us.

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No, I was only curious what you were referring to when you said you still stand behind it. I don't hold an interest in discussing the "true" nature of the Federal Reserve, central banking in general, or anything like that.

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YawnGG said:
so if you don't understand this, then you can remain ignorant, but don't pretend you care about politics, or even post in this forum while im on the topic. Sheeple.

To ignorant to care about his own race.

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Are you really trying to say that, if I have no interest in discussing this particular matter with you, then I'm only pretending to care about politics and that I shouldn't even post in this forum?

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YawnGG said:
No, I am saying that because you obviously don't understand what im talking about and refuse to learn, feel free never to discuss it with me, i could care less.

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How do you know what I understand and what I do not understand on the topic? Did I say anything at all about the topic to suggest what I do know and what I do not know concerning it?

I'm the one who originally expressed that I have no interest in discussing the topic, and I never did discuss any aspect of it with you, so your conclusion that "because of this and this and this, feel free to never discuss this with me", is awfully similar to telling someone who fires you "you can't fire me because I quit!".  

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If you don't understand the federal reserve then you have no idea about politics, as it controls politics. Sooo ya.. maybe you should educate yourself about this before you post on a forum labeled politics.

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