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zappaisgod said:
Brees and Brady are great Hall of Fame QBs.  That said it took, what, 30 years and a few dozen rule changes favoring the passing game to break his record?  He will never be diminished.

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Deltron3030 said:

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zappaisgod said:
Brees and Brady are great Hall of Fame QBs.  That said it took, what, 30 years and a few dozen rule changes favoring the passing game to break his record?  He will never be diminished.

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for real. marino did it when a cb could do just about anything to a receiver and not get flagged. all these rule changes are making football like basketball on grass.

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SneezingPenis said:

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Deltron3030 said:

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zappaisgod said:
Brees and Brady are great Hall of Fame QBs.  That said it took, what, 30 years and a few dozen rule changes favoring the passing game to break his record?  He will never be diminished.

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for real. marino did it when a cb could do just about anything to a receiver and not get flagged. all these rule changes are making football like basketball on grass.

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whole lotta problems when you try to make the "what if" argument.

"rules changed to favor passers": true. but this isnt some new development this year, or even recently. outside of maybe roughing the passer calls being a little more liberal, nothing has changed this year compared to 5 or even 10 years ago. but even then it doesnt help an argument because brees is the least sacked qb.
then if you look at pass interference, I think it is kind of a wash between losing passing yards in 1984 to what would be considered PI today, or losing passing yards in 2011 to more pass interference being called.

"the league has become more pass prone": yeah, it has. same thing with 1978 when modern passing rules were made and then Fouts broke Unitas record in 1979, and then his own in 1980,  and 1981. which would make you think that back in 1984 when the NFL was dominated by powerbacks, that defenses werent designed around stopping the pass nearly as much as they were about stopping the run. seems to me it would have been easier to get a man open 40 yards downfield back in 1984 than it is in 2011.

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  Clearly you weren't watching games then.  DBs were, relatively speaking, allowed to sexual violate receivers.  That's why most teams relied on the run.  They exploited the easier path, which was the run.  They ran because it was easier.

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Im sure everyone has seen the comparisons of standard deviations and league averages between marino '84 and brees '11, and almost every stat in that category shows that brees did not only in 15 games, but did it within the same margins of league averages as marino did in 1984 when compared to peers at the time.

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Well no, I haven't seen any.  Perhaps you could find us some.  Didn't another QB also break his mark?  Why yes.  Matthew Stafford came within 50 yards and Eli Manning within 100.  And neither Brees (8% more) nor Brady (3%) squeaked past him.

I believe you just chopped your own argument.  My complete point was that league averages were lower 20+ years ago.  Nor are the rule changes over the last year or two particularly relevant.  It has been 20+ years of rule changes, not just two.  Then there is overall playing philosophy.  Do you really think 40 years ago was the same as 20 years ago or this year?  I say them both.  The difference is amazing.

That Marino's record stood this long is astonishing.

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SneezingPenis said:
so you think athleticism and strategy have stayed the same since 84? you dont think that guys are faster, smarter, better trained?

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I think there are just as many obstacle to overcoming 5000 yards today as there was in 84. they might be different, but both QBs got it done in their own way.

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saying one guy is better than the other is barroom hubris. but i think brees record will stand for a while.

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i cant find the stats that they posted on the atl NO game, but most of them showed that compared to all the other qbs at the time, brees was either above, or neck and neck with marino.

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also, brees has a better td/int ratio, completion percentage, and an 8 point higher passer rating.

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SneezingPenis said:
protecting the qb is irrelevant. brees is the least sacked qb in the league.

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  Doesn't that support my argument and not yours?

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also, remember that brees all by his lonesome hit 5k yards and spent hanging out in that 2 man club for 2 years.

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yes it would apply to both sides of the line of scrimmage, what is your point? wrs are better?

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brees is a much more accurate qb than marino. i think this proves it:

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and do you even watch football? the entire atlanta saints game was nothing but them comparing marino and brees stats. sorry if i didnt record it for you or cant recite the tons of statistical comparisons.

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SneezingPenis said:
because a qb is less sacked that detracts from his accomplishment how?

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Brees isnt a scramble QB but he has a few highlight reels from this year alone that are pretty impressive.

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and the 2 man club used to be marino and brees were the only people in nfl history to throw for 5k yards. that was 2009, when he was only something like 8 yards away from breaking marinos record and meachem drops an 11 yard pass that hit him in the chest the last throw of the game for brees. so he would have done it then, all by himself.

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please list the rule changes and what year they were implemented so we can see how this timeline of "making it easy" works.

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The glut of challengers this season says plenty about the N.F.L., too. Rodney Harrison, the former Patriots safety who is now an analyst on NBC’s “Football Night in America,” points to the rules changes, like those that protect the quarterback in the pocket and defenseless receivers downfield, that favor the offense. Harrison said he believed that because teams could not build defenses able to stop offenses with plenty of weapons and the rules to exploit them, they instead opt to spend their money to develop high-powered offenses that can outscore everybody. The most successful of those teams keep their offenses in place over several years.

Gannon, who finished with 4,689 yards in 2002, said: “You’re talking about elite players with a lot of continuity: the same play-caller, the same systems, the same receivers. They really benefited from the lockout; they could have gone into Week 1 with 90 percent of the offense in without much of a training camp. All that contributes to a certain comfort level, a certain functionality, and these guys are just cutting it loose.

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There were more passing yards in Week One (7,842) than any week in NFL history.  To put that in perspective, teams averaged 245 yards passing.  And this included the Alex Smith-Tarvaris Jackson showdown.

3. 14 quarterbacks passed for over 300 yards.  That’s also the most for any week in NFL history.

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accuracy is a pretty big indication of how well a qb does when it comes to passing yards. do i need to introduce you to a player by the name of Tim Tebow?

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oh and the kicker....

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SneezingPenis said:
That defenses werent designed around stopping the pass nearly as much as they were about stopping the run. seems to me it would have been easier to get a man open 40 yards downfield back in 1984 than it is in 2011.

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SneezingPenis said:
brady? who is that?

oh you mean that qb that is 200 yards behind brees. Ive heard of him.

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SneezingPenis said:

http://www.steelersfever.com/nfl_history_of_rules.html

there are just as many rules that could have helped a qb than hurt a qb that have changed.

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Senor_Doobie said:
It's not like Marino played in bad weather.  Miami is actually really nice this time of year.  Plus, back then the Colts were in the AFC East so that was a guaranteed dome game too.  So I don't buy into the "dome quarterback" argument in this case.  If you are comparing Simms to someone, sure, but Marino played in nice weather and domes most of the time.

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LiquidSmoke said:

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SneezingPenis said:

http://www.steelersfever.com/nfl_history_of_rules.html

there are just as many rules that could have helped a qb than hurt a qb that have changed.

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It's funny that you used a Steelers fan website as the source.  I also simply google searched "nfl penalty history" to look that up.


There were quite a few rules for protecting QBs in there between Marino and Brees' time.


But the one that's clearly a huge advantage is the use of radio communications with the sideline.  I dont think any other rules working against QB's can overule that kind of advantage Brees had compared to Marino.


Oh, and not to mention, playing in a closed dome for more than half the season every year.

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SneezingPenis said:


and one defense guy gets it in his helmet too.

but not i dont think that getting 5000 passing yards this year was just as easy as in 84, but getting 5400+ was just about as hard as getting 5000

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zappaisgod said:
I said it before and I'll say it again.  Marino set his record with almost 100 fewer attempts.  Wrap your feeble mind around that.

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SneezingPenis said:
actually it was more like 60 more pass attempts at the time brees broke marino's record.... but you want to say that all the evolution of athleticism, tactics, and ability in the last 30 years didnt have any effect?

you want to say all things arent equal, except when you compare a certain stat.... am i reading that right?

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Gairacita said:

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zappaisgod said:
I said it before and I'll say it again.  Marino set his record with almost 100 fewer attempts.  Wrap your feeble mind around that.

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he had better recievers

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zappaisgod said:

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SneezingPenis said:
actually it was more like 60 more pass attempts at the time brees broke marino's record.... but you want to say that all the evolution of athleticism, tactics, and ability in the last 30 years didnt have any effect?

you want to say all things arent equal, except when you compare a certain stat.... am i reading that right?

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How slow can you be?  I specifically pointed out the change in tactics due to changing rules as probably the biggest factor.  Hence the fact that five of the all time top passing seasons occurred this year.  There are lots of other stats to point to.  Yards per attempt, yards per completion.  TDs per attempt and completion.  Even though the rules were much tougher on the passing game. 

Athleticism is zero sum.  The players on both sides of the ball are more athletic.  But not as much as you probably believe.  Did you ever even watch Marino play?

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Gairacita said:

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zappaisgod said:
I said it before and I'll say it again.  Marino set his record with almost 100 fewer attempts.  Wrap your feeble mind around that.

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he had better recievers

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zappaisgod said:
Five of the all time top ten season passing stats occurred this year.

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LiquidSmoke said:

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zappaisgod said:
Five of the all time top ten season passing stats occurred this year.

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That's all that really needs to be said.  What Brees did this year wasn't really heads and shoulders above his competition.  The increased trend in production was across the board.


When Marino did it, there was nobody who came close his year.



It should also be mentioned that the passing game production increased tremendously over the past half decade.

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SneezingPenis said:
florida weather is pretty much the same thing as a new orleans dome year round.

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SneezingPenis said:

in 1984 neil lomax was only 400 yards behind marino. pretty much the same margin most of the others are behind brees. also, remember that brees was only 15 yards shy of marino's record back in 2009 and he was the only qb that year to break 5000 yards.

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LiquidSmoke said:

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SneezingPenis said:

in 1984 neil lomax was only 400 yards behind marino. pretty much the same margin most of the others are behind brees. also, remember that brees was only 15 yards shy of marino's record back in 2009 and he was the only qb that year to break 5000 yards.

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For the whole decade of the 1980's, there were never more than 2 QBs who broke 4000 yards.  Most years only had 1.  And it should also be mentioned that Marino led the league in passing yardage for 4 out of the 7 years he played in the 1980's.


In this current decade, an average of 7-8 QBs per year break the 4000 yard barrier.  And again, as zappa mentioned, when Brees broke the record, 5000 yards were reached by 3QBs, 4000 yards was broken by 10 QBs, and it was the highest yards passing season in league history.

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SneezingPenis said:
so the wind only blows in miami, not tampa or carolina.

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SneezingPenis said:
brees' yardage stays the same when in outdoor games this year, and his completion percentage drops less than 3%, which could be attributed to receivers dropping more balls in the cold.

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LiquidSmoke said:

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SneezingPenis said:
brees' yardage stays the same when in outdoor games this year, and his completion percentage drops less than 3%, which could be attributed to receivers dropping more balls in the cold.

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It's funny how many other statistics you left out when compared Brees OUTDOORS vs INDOORS.



Pretty much ALL of his passing stats across the board drop when he goes from INDOORS to OUTDOORS.



As you mentioned, his completion percentage drops by 3%, which is negligable, but it's just the tip of the iceburg that you've neglected to mention.


Brees indoors TD/INT: 34/6

Brees OUTDOORS TD/INT: 12/8

(That's about 75% drop in passing efficiency)


Brees indoors TD per attempt: 9%

Brees OUTDOORS TD per attempt: 4%

(More than 50% drop in percentage)


Brees indoors INT per attempt: 2%

Brees OUTDOORS INT per attept: 3%

(a 33% increase in INTs per attempt)



Brees indoors passer rating: 120.8

Breeds OUTDOORS passer rating: 96.8






So again, try and tell me how Brees playing 11 out of 16 games indoors didn't help?

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SneezingPenis said:


first, you need to check that against other QBs. how much better does brady do in a dome? rodgers?

also, you need to check your stats. are you going as a career? this season? just with the saints? makes a big difference when you nitpick and try to get the stats to support something that really isnt applicable.

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this year Brees averaged 40.1 yard per game more outdoors than indoors. what can you say about that stat? what is there that anyone can say about that stat? maybe his QBR was lower, maybe his PA's were slightly lower, but for the argument about Passing Yards, that speaks for itself.

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zappaisgod said:
As it would help most QBs

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SneezingPenis said:
in the 5 outdoor games this year, he threw for 1849 yards.

in his 11 indoor games, he threw for 3627. do the math. he had better yardage in outdoor games. plain and simple.

we arent talking about the most pass attempts record, we are talking about a players yardage being affected by outdoor conditions.

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SneezingPenis said:

you say wind, i say noise. there is a counter factor for every factor. not all qbs work the same. there is a huge, huge difference between the noise in the superdome and the noise at a titans game (both of which i have been to this year). I would even go as far to say that noise is a bigger factor than wind. you also have turf vs grass, cold vs hot, altitude vs not (pretty much for denver only).

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SneezingPenis said:
you say brees throws more INTs, or has a worse completion percentage....

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LiquidSmoke said:
Yup, Brees sure played better outdoors...

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SneezingPenis said:

also, I never said the 9ers were a top passing defense, but they are a top overall defense.

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and lets not forget that he only threw for 4 yards more a week before in the dome.

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SneezingPenis said:
do you really fail to see the hole in your argument? I have proven time and time again that when it comes to yardage, Brees is not affected by his external conditions in any way that mathematically change him being the current 1 season passing leader.

you can cite QBR and number of throws all you want, but it has absolutely no bearing on the stone cold stats of his yardage. If it was relevant, then I could easily argue that a field maliciously made soggy slows receivers down therefor making less yardage on reception and YAC.

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SneezingPenis said:
when it comes to yardage, brees does better outdoors. that is the statistical fact.

if we are arguing that brees only broke marinos record because he plays indoors, then that statement is bunk if you look at his yardage statistics.

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