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Amazon Shop for: ½ Pint Jars, Vermiculite

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Offline2 cats freckles
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Flipping jars
    #15532624 - 12/17/11 11:27 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I have flipped my jars upside down to see if the mycelium will grow upwards to cover the bottoms.  Anybody see a problem with this?


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InvisibleUmeltin
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Re: Flipping jars [Re: 2 cats freckles]
    #15532656 - 12/17/11 11:34 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

i do this all the time when the jars take forever to colonize the bottoms.


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OfflineKoD
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Re: Flipping jars [Re: Umeltin]
    #15532675 - 12/17/11 11:39 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

If you put a layer of vermiculite on the top to protect against contamination you lose that benefit by flipping/shaking.


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Offlineroaddog
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Re: Flipping jars [Re: 2 cats freckles]
    #15532681 - 12/17/11 11:40 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

2 cats freckles said:
I have flipped my jars upside down to see if the mycelium will grow upwards to cover the bottoms.  Anybody see a problem with this?



Its doable, but could be a little risky.


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Offlinejim617
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Re: Flipping jars [Re: roaddog]
    #15532701 - 12/17/11 11:47 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I remember when I was first learning PFtek I was told to flip my jars, there was a lot of talk about flipping jars to get them to colonize faster, not sure if that was ever proven though. I have flipped my jars in the past with no problems but I am more patiant now.
be careful, sometimes once you flip your jars , then re-flip them back up, the dry verm layer tends to fall down the side of the jar. thats not good.


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Offline2 cats freckles
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Re: Flipping jars [Re: jim617]
    #15532748 - 12/18/11 12:01 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Well, it seems to be accelerating the colonization.  I think the risk is if I turn them back over.  I should probably keep them upside down now until birthing.


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OfflineKoD
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Re: Flipping jars [Re: 2 cats freckles]
    #15532765 - 12/18/11 12:08 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

2 cats freckles said:
Well, it seems to be accelerating the colonization.  I think the risk is if I turn them back over.  I should probably keep them upside down now until birthing.





That sounds like a good idea. Here's a relevant RR quote for other readers.
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
When you examine them, don't turn them upside down.  That can cause the verm barrier to shift.  You can expect there to be contaminant spores near the air/inoculation holes, and if you shift the jar around, those mold spores can be shifted down and into the substrate, contaminating it.




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InvisibleUmeltin
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Re: Flipping jars [Re: KoD]
    #15532781 - 12/18/11 12:12 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

yeah that does sound like its risky. but i do this every batch and never had a contam:shrug:. i read on here somewhere it makes it colonize faster when you flip it because of the ge.

maybe try it out on just a couple jars and see how it goes. what might work for me might not work for you.


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OfflineKoD
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Re: Flipping jars [Re: Umeltin]
    #15532788 - 12/18/11 12:14 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I shake my PF Jars at ~30%, hasn't contam'd yet. :bigjoint:


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Offlinejim617
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Re: Flipping jars [Re: KoD]
    #15532860 - 12/18/11 12:31 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

KoD said:
I shake my PF Jars at ~30%, hasn't contam'd yet. :bigjoint:




you shake your PF jars?


--------------------
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OfflineKoD
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Re: Flipping jars [Re: jim617]
    #15532882 - 12/18/11 12:38 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

jim617 said:
you shake your PF jars?



Yes, they colonize faster. Chunks of the mycelium spread around the jar and branch out gaining more points to expand from. This results in it covering more surface area quicker (and with better coverage in my experiences). I keep a very clean environment so contamination hasn't been an issue.


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Offlinejim617
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Re: Flipping jars [Re: KoD]
    #15532940 - 12/18/11 12:57 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

KoD said:
Quote:

jim617 said:
you shake your PF jars?



Yes, they colonize faster. Chunks of the mycelium spread around the jar and branch out gaining more points to expand from. This results in it covering more surface area quicker (and with better coverage in my experiences). I keep a very clean environment so contamination hasn't been an issue.




are you using a dry verm layer or are you using grain lids for your cakes?  if your shaking pf cakes with the standard verm layer then youve been very lucky to not get a contam. a properly made cake shouldnt even have that much room for shaking.


--------------------
MrFunGuy: "I figured if I put a 15lb cinder block on top of the pot lid that it would cook @15 psi."[]


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InvisibleUmeltin
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Re: Flipping jars [Re: jim617]
    #15532990 - 12/18/11 01:12 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

jim617 said:
Quote:

KoD said:
Quote:

jim617 said:
you shake your PF jars?



Yes, they colonize faster. Chunks of the mycelium spread around the jar and branch out gaining more points to expand from. This results in it covering more surface area quicker (and with better coverage in my experiences). I keep a very clean environment so contamination hasn't been an issue.




are you using a dry verm layer or are you using grain lids for your cakes?  if your shaking pf cakes with the standard verm layer then youve been very lucky to not get a contam. a properly made cake shouldnt even have that much room for shaking.




yeah i dont see how that would work either. is the cake even a cake when fully colonized or is it just a loose clump of mycelium? i could shake my jars all day and nothing would move inside. but if you mean grain jars then thats different


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OfflineKoD
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Re: Flipping jars [Re: jim617]
    #15533004 - 12/18/11 01:15 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

jim617 said:
are you using a dry verm layer or are you using grain lids for your cakes?  if your shaking pf cakes with the standard verm layer then youve been very lucky to not get a contam. a properly made cake shouldnt even have that much room for shaking.



I keep a dry verm layer on top and use a Tyvek filter disc, usually i end up breaking the substrate in half, but mycelium still spreads around very well. The gap fills with a very large frosting of mycelium for sure :smile: A lot of mushrooms usually form around there.

My jars break up pretty good because I have many other ingredients in the substrate.
:toast:


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Re: Flipping jars [Re: Umeltin]
    #15533012 - 12/18/11 01:17 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I've heard you can be fairly safe flipping them as long as you flip once and leave it that way. Don't flip your jars 20 times back and forth examining them.


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InvisibleUmeltin
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Re: Flipping jars [Re: trophycase]
    #15533029 - 12/18/11 01:21 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

trophycase said:
I've heard you can be fairly safe flipping them as long as you flip once and leave it that way. Don't flip your jars 20 times back and forth examining them.




yup thats about the same thing i read. i just flip once and leave it til its done colonizing and consolidating


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Re: Flipping jars [Re: KoD]
    #15533183 - 12/18/11 02:09 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I've heard this, and vehemently disagree, not just empiracally, but theoretically as well.

The verm layer serves a single purpose, to protect against unwanted airborne contaminants. It does this by two factors.

1. Volume of undesirable bacterial/fungal food. Dry vermiculate, or at least very low moisturized vermiculite is a very poor food source for most bacteria and fungi. Thus the sheer volume (area multiplied by mass) of vermiculite is a deterant of contamination because it doesn't, inately, contain much of what is needed to purport those organisms.

2. Physical barrier for contaminants. Much on the same wavelength, this is related to vermiculite's available air space, physical space, or, it's volume. Because there is so much space and empty crevasses in verm, it's an ideal absorber of physical particulates. Due to many electrical and physical forces which i, very honestly, don't fully understand myself, particulates in the air (not bacteria or fungal spores themselves, but the much larger particles they're attached and tethered too) adhere to the spaces and surfaces in verm, and other filters.

This principle is made MUCH more valid when using filter disks, or tyvek, or anything that can otherwise hinder the flow of free air between the filtered parts, which verm doesn't do. Because it inherently has spaces between itself, verm isn't the best choice for filtering, because a majority of the larges particles will take the least path of resistance, which of course is between the verm itself.

It's the combination of the two, plus the virtual sterility of the substrate matched with the immense amount of spores most inoculate their jars with, that give our PF experiments such high success rates.


Both of these factors are independent of gravity (or "which way the jars is flipped", however you look at it. And i have. :sun:


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Offline2 cats freckles
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Re: Flipping jars [Re: Umeltin]
    #15533193 - 12/18/11 02:10 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Shaking these would be pointless, except to encourage the verm layer on top to slip down the sides, then I would be screwed


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When I looked up, the clouds shimmered....when I looked up again, they were gone, followed by the sound of distant shattering crystals


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Re: Flipping jars [Re: KoD]
    #15533212 - 12/18/11 02:17 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I've heard this, and vehemently disagree, not just empiracally, but theoretically as well.

The verm layer serves a single purpose, to protect against unwanted airborne contaminants. It does this by two factors.

1. Volume of undesirable bacterial/fungal food. Dry vermiculate, or at least very low moisturized vermiculite is a very poor food source for most bacteria and fungi. Thus the sheer volume (area multiplied by mass) of vermiculite is a deterant of contamination because it doesn't, inately, contain much of what is needed to purport those organisms.

2. Physical barrier for contaminants. Much on the same wavelength, this is related to vermiculite's available air space, physical space, or, it's volume. Because there is so much space and empty crevasses in verm, it's an ideal absorber of physical particulates. Due to many electrical and physical forces which i, very honestly, don't fully understand myself, particulates in the air (not bacteria or fungal spores themselves, but the much larger particles they're attached and tethered too) adhere to the spaces and surfaces in verm, and other filters.

This principle is made MUCH more valid when using filter disks, or tyvek, or anything that can otherwise hinder the flow of free air between the filtered parts, which verm doesn't do. Because it inherently has spaces between itself, verm isn't the best choice for filtering, because a majority of the larges particles will take the least path of resistance, which of course is between the verm itself.

It's the combination of the two, plus the virtual sterility of the substrate matched with the immense amount of spores most inoculate their jars with, that give our PF experiments such high success rates.


Both of these factors are independent of gravity or, "which way the jars is flipped", however you look at it. And i have. :sun:


--------------------
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Invisiblewildernessjunkie
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Re: Flipping jars [Re: KoD]
    #15533242 - 12/18/11 02:30 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

KoD said:
I shake my PF Jars at ~30%, hasn't contam'd yet. :bigjoint:




Dont do this.

Also, only flip jars that have stalled. And once you flip, leave them flipped. Dont turn them right side up again.


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Amazon Shop for: ½ Pint Jars, Vermiculite

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Mushroom Cultivation

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