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OfflineRammy
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A Better Shotgun Terrarium (Science!)
    #15405070 - 11/21/11 10:27 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

So I was thinking about the science behind the shotgun terrarium, as it relies on the pressure differential at varying altitudes within the chamber, and wondering if there is a more efficient way of achieving the same result through a slight modification. Consider this to be a regular shotgun terrarium viewed from the side. Potential convection scenarios for where air could enter and leave (these are just a few examples) are illustrated:

Top                                            Potential Convection Scenarios
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|________________|
Bottom

As we know, pressure correlates directly with both density and altitude (height difference between holes). The shotgun terrarium traditionally relies on the altitude difference between holes to draw air from the lower, more humid areas (the perlite layer) up to the higher levels. Furthermore, this circulation helps to purge CO2 buildup from the system, allowing for essentially a (semi) self-regulating terrarium.

First off, I would like to propose that the pressure gradients, and therefore convection, found in shotgun terrariums are due to differences in relative humidity, NOT temperature differences, as commonly cited. The density of water vapor, and by extension humid air, at room temperature is significantly less than that of the less humid air outside the terrarium. The overall convection flows from bottom to top within the terrarium because the lower perlite layer establishes a higher relative humidity surrounding it than is found at the top of the terrarium.

Consider the convection currents found in the traditional terrarium. Many (if not most) of the possible modes of convection involve transfer from holes that are above the perlite layer, to another hole higher than it. While this serves its purpose in eliminating CO2 via FAE, it does nothing to actively rehydrate the terrarium atmosphere. Simply put, most gas transfer involves exchanging stale, optimally humid air for fresh, sub-optimally humid air.

However, is there not a more efficient way to achieve the same level of FAE, while maximizing automatic re-humidification? Consider the modified shotgun terrarium (viewed from the side):

Top                                            Potential Convection Scenarios
__________________
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|......................................  |      <---------                -->
|......................................  |      <---------                <--
|_________________| 
Bottom

If you're so inclined to count the number of dots (holes), you'll note that there is the same number of holes as in the traditional model, which means that the total surface area where gas exchange can occur remains the same; however, the primary difference is in the placement of the holes. This modified placement ensures that the majority of incoming air moves through the most hydrated layers of the terrarium (the bottom), and the majority of outgoing air is relatively low in humidity (to the rest of the chamber). Essentially, this results in increased passive humidification of the system while also mitigating the amount of water lost per CO2 expelled.

For clarification's sake, you wouldn't want to put ALL of your holes in the perlite layer. This might result in decreased air transfer due to blockage. The top and bottom layers should remain evenly spaced, since there is no altitude (pressure) difference between any holes on these surfaces. Holes in the middle serve less practical purpose than those on the ends.

The take-home message is that you want to concentrate your holes at the bottom and the top of your terrarium to maximize the shotgun terrarium's potential. Theoretically, this could allow you to increase the number of holes in your terrarium if strategically placed, garnering greater FAE with no loss to your relative humidity.

I'm pretty new to mushroom growing, but looking at this from a physics standpoints it seems to be a better design. This is just my theory, I'd love to hear what the community thinks and any challenges to it or anecdotal experience anyone has. I'm modifying my chamber right now in consideration of these changes.


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OfflineMycelio
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Re: A Better Shotgun Terrarium (Science!) [Re: Rammy]
    #15405358 - 11/21/11 11:31 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Rammy said:
...
First off, I would like to propose that the pressure gradients, and therefore convection, found in shotgun terrariums are due to differences in relative humidity, NOT temperature differences, as commonly cited. The density of water vapor, and by extension humid air, at room temperature is significantly less than that of the less humid air outside the terrarium. The overall convection flows from bottom to top within the terrarium because the lower perlite layer establishes a higher relative humidity surrounding it than is found at the top of the terrarium.
...



You forgot about the cooling effect of evaporation. Cool humid air will tend to sink down and flow out at the bottom. Fortunately we have mushroom mycelium in there, generating heat by its metabolism, creating upwards convection. So your idea might work, but you should really test it before giving advice.

Carsten


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OfflineManicMongrel
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Re: A Better Shotgun Terrarium (Science!) [Re: Rammy]
    #15406527 - 11/22/11 07:34 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not a big fan of shotgun terrariums either. It works but doesn't have very good convection currents.

I usually make the tubs with a row of holes at low level and another at the top. The tub is heated to  about 26*C at the bottom, a small layer of water at the bottom maintain the humidity around 90. This gives fairly good convection currents so that the CO2 concentrations doesn't build up. Air and vapor travel upwards and out through the top holes while the pressure difference sucks cooler new air in at the bottom. You need a lot of holes to get a proper volume flux though.

At my new setup I only have holes and use an automated air pump with UV and hepa filter. All the air is exchanged 4-5 times a day.


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Edited by ManicMongrel (11/22/11 07:37 AM)


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: A Better Shotgun Terrarium (Science!) [Re: Rammy]
    #15407016 - 11/22/11 11:31 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

As we know, pressure correlates directly with both density and altitude (height difference between holes). The shotgun terrarium traditionally relies on the altitude difference between holes to draw air from the lower, more humid areas (the perlite layer) up to the higher levels. Furthermore, this circulation helps to purge CO2 buildup from the system, allowing for essentially a (semi) self-regulating terrarium.




It's mostly a density altitude equation, but not necessarily between individual holes in the top part of the terrarium (provided they're there). With holes in the sides as per the tek, I doubt there's enough molecular weight of air within the growing part of the terrarium to cause much differential there, and if there was, the air would tend to spill out the lower holes, as I'll explain below.

You're correct the moist air within the perlite is less dense, especially less dense than the outside room air.  This is why the terrarium works, IF the person doesn't run a fan in the room to disturb the natural circulation patterns.  However, it's important to also consider the effect of evaporative cooling as the air passes through the perlite.  The cooling effect makes the air more dense, but as it absorbs moisture, it again becomes less dense.

The other factor to consider, which partly tends to work against the first is that during the daylight hours, the terrarium is either lit with an electric lamp or light from a window, either of which cause a small amount of 'solar' greenhouse effect, which tends to lower pressure in the upper part of the terrarium. Now, because that warm air is less dense than the air in the room, it tends to rise, much the way a hot air balloon rises, keeping the circulation pattern going.

I tried doing the engineering calculations several years ago, but the variables were too great(such as changing atmospheric pressure due to weather changes outdoors, etc) and it all gave me multiple headaches. :laugh:

I finally resorted to the 'brute force' method of engineering where I built a few dozen terrariums with all sorts of hole sizes and patterns, including the one you suggested above, and then by default, selected the design which gave the best mushroom growing performance over a year. 

The main problem I had with holes at top and bottom as in your suggestion above, was the fact that the CO2 produced by the mushroom substrates tends to make the air within the fruiting section slightly heavier.  This small amount of weight was screwing up the pressure gradient which causes air to flow up through the perlite, providing the humidity we require.  I think that's about the only thing you forgot to figure into your ideas above.  The holes in the sides of the fruiting area mitigate this molecular weight, keeping the air flowing from bottom to top as we require.

I like that you're thinking.  You make it clear you have an understanding of physics.  You should take up aviation, if you haven't already.
RR


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Re: A Better Shotgun Terrarium (Science!) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #15457548 - 12/03/11 04:36 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Would some holes spaced 2-4" apart around the top of the perlite possibly help with the CO2 regulation?


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Re: A Better Shotgun Terrarium (Science!) [Re: fngbronco]
    #15457580 - 12/03/11 04:54 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I have 2 large 4inch in diameter holes in the middle of a tub at each end, covered with a furnace dust filter to keep out larger particles.
Have holes in the top lid, to vent the heat from the 18inch florescent, which adds up to about another 3inch in diameter hole. And I have 8 half inch in diameter holes around the bottom to let out CO2.
I don't use perlite though, found it unnecessary. I use large coir bins though, so the moisture those give off in a half hour, will bring the humidity to 100% from 70%. When they are getting dry I supplement with a jar filled with wet perlite. It can be removed easily for cleaning.

I've used a fan, and I've left it off, with no real change in operation.
Basically hot air rises, cool air sinks, if you put holes in the top and bottom you'll always have air exchange. Larger holes more exchange, harder to keep in humidity, but you can make less.


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Offlineshroombasauce
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Re: A Better Shotgun Terrarium (Science!) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #16528517 - 07/14/12 02:23 AM (2 years, 10 days ago)

I'm kind of new to this, but I've been using this forum forever now; so its about that time for me to start contributing. The basic design presented on mushroomvideos.com has a great structural foundation to the new concept of ventilating the terrarium, but it is evident that he didn't go through the trouble of critiquing his newly publicized idea. Most likely the reason behind his lack of improvement was due to the reason that it works enough.

On the other hand, protectionist like I and a great portion of the community are always looking for the cookie cutter "best" way of doing everything. After carefully reading this thread, watching the videos, and doing extended research I still can not figure out the "best" way to construct a terrarium for optimal mushroom growth.

As stated before, the biggest issue with the 1/4 in" holes spaced 2 in" apart from each other on all 6 sides is that the terrarium leaks took much humidity, which can easily be fixed with a humidifier hooked up to the terrarium itself. This also depends on the setup and etc.

Back to the original discussion topic aka the optimal orientation of holes in the terrarium, I feel like holes on the very bottom of the terrarium dries out the perlite. Hypothetically, I assume that the the humidity diffuses from higher to lower concentrations until it reaches an average medium.

ahhh, its getting late a I have to go for the moment, but ill finish this post when i come back.

(bottom)
Ideally, what about 2 rows of 1/4 in. holes 1 in. apart from each other horizontally and 2 in. apart vertically, so that 1 set is a near/little below the surface and the other is above the surface?
(top)In addition, have 1 row identically spaced out near the top of the terrarium.
(middle)Additionally, 1 row of 1/4 in. holes 2 in. apart from each other horizontally in the middle of terrarium, where the the center of mushroom grow is located in a PF tek setup.



So it would look something like:
Top                                            Potential Convection Scenarios
__________________
|......................................  |      -------------------->
|                                        |
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|                                        |
|_________________|
Bottom           

Let me know what you guys think about my incomplete theory. I'll try to finish my post by tomorrow. In addition, how do you guys feel about putting holes on the top and bottom side on terrarium itself? In other words, how many sides of the terrarium should contain ventilation holes?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: A Better Shotgun Terrarium (Science!) [Re: shroombasauce]
    #16529261 - 07/14/12 08:58 AM (2 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

shroombasauce said:
it is evident that he didn't go through the trouble of critiquing his newly publicized idea.




:facepalm:

Quote:

shroombasauce said:
As stated before, the biggest issue with the 1/4 in" holes spaced 2 in" apart from each other on all 6 sides is that the terrarium leaks took much humidity, which can easily be fixed with a humidifier hooked up to the terrarium itself.




When you get around to doing your first grow, may I suggest you tape up half the holes and watch your humidity drop as a result.  Furthermore, humidity doesn't 'leak out' the holes except near the very top where the humid air rises and carries the stale CO2 laden air away. (I'll now await my lesson on how CO2 is heavier than air and only leaves via the bottom)

The biggest noob mistake is thinking only in terms of humidity, when fresh air exchange is far more important.  The shotgun terrarium provides the proper balance of both.
RR


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Re: A Better Shotgun Terrarium (Science!) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #16529281 - 07/14/12 09:11 AM (2 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

I feel like holes on the very bottom of the terrarium dries out the perlite




That moisture is evaporating into the air. Mist the perlite to replace it.

Quote:

and doing extended research I still can not figure out the "best" way to construct a terrarium for optimal mushroom growth.




This is a solved problem, it's like trying to determine the optimal shape for a wheel.


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Offlinepsillymathhead
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Re: A Better Shotgun Terrarium (Science!) [Re: Doc_T]
    #16563887 - 07/21/12 12:51 PM (2 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Doc_T said:

This is a solved problem, it's like trying to determine the optimal shape for a wheel.




Touché lol.

I have thought about this chamber as well.  It is how I teach anyone new to the hobby... with great success.  Back when I learned about this hobby, it was still common to use aquariums with the dank nasty water laden perlite.  What a mess that was, although it got the job done for many years.

Being a scientist, when I started trying to think deeply about what is happening in the chamber, I realized that it is a very dynamic system, much of which is very delicate (bc of small scale) to the point of being difficult to model.  With that said, IME, FAE aside, people that have the highest RH with the SGFC are using a closely positioned artificial light source.  IE, flouro with reflector over the tub. This leads me to believe that the greenhouse effect,when present, is probably driving the system to max RH.  Without the close lightsource there is still success, just not the level of beading that I see with directly lighted SGFC.  I don't know anyone using window sunlight due to privacy concerns...


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Re: A Better Shotgun Terrarium (Science!) [Re: psillymathhead]
    #16565217 - 07/21/12 09:59 PM (2 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

This leads me to believe that the greenhouse effect,when present, is probably driving the system to max RH




You think light energy is exciting the water molecules- a foot away and on the other side of plastic, enough to cause measurably greater evaporation?
Or are you saying something else there?

I use sunlight, but not for shotguns, so I can't really comment on that part.


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Re: A Better Shotgun Terrarium (Science!) [Re: Doc_T]
    #16565501 - 07/21/12 10:54 PM (2 years, 2 days ago)

I use my SGFC in a closet so that the air currents (windows and vents) don't mess up the circulation of the air provided by the design. Never had a problem except when I was too busy to fan them for a few days.


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Re: A Better Shotgun Terrarium (Science!) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #16566944 - 07/22/12 09:13 AM (2 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

shroombasauce said:
it is evident that he didn't go through the trouble of critiquing his newly publicized idea.




:facepalm:

Quote:

shroombasauce said:
As stated before, the biggest issue with the 1/4 in" holes spaced 2 in" apart from each other on all 6 sides is that the terrarium leaks took much humidity, which can easily be fixed with a humidifier hooked up to the terrarium itself.




When you get around to doing your first grow, may I suggest you tape up half the holes and watch your humidity drop as a result.  Furthermore, humidity doesn't 'leak out' the holes except near the very top where the humid air rises and carries the stale CO2 laden air away. (I'll now await my lesson on how CO2 is heavier than air and only leaves via the bottom)

The biggest noob mistake is thinking only in terms of humidity, when fresh air exchange is far more important.  The shotgun terrarium provides the proper balance of both.
RR




Truth, I think Fresh Air and drying of substrate is far more important. Watch mushrooms fruit outdoors, it will rain for 5 days and no fruits at 100 percent humidity but as soon as the sun comes out and starts drying the ground that's when the fruits happen.


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Offlinepsillymathhead
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Re: A Better Shotgun Terrarium (Science!) [Re: nastos]
    #16568165 - 07/22/12 03:08 PM (2 years, 2 days ago)

I think the waste heat emitted from a very close light system (say a 2' flouro with ballast/reflector) combining with the light hitting the top, all heating the top area of the chamber (and above) has a lot more effect than the light exciting contents of the chamber.  In my mind this is actually a non trivial temperature differential.  The other variables seem difficult to measure/model IMO... leading to the trial/error experiments instead of theoretical models.  Perhaps calling this a "greenhouse" effect was a mistake on my part, given the traditional sense of the phrase... a stretch at best :smile:

I don't personally use a close light source, bc the SGFC works well enough for me using ambient light.  However, I have seen adding a close source increase the beading (RH) in SGFCs.  That is all I was trying to add, perhaps for members in dryer enviornments who have trouble getting the RH up all the way :wink:

I would be curious if anyone has used growstones as an alternative to the large chunky perlite in the SGFC....  This was recommended to me at my local hydroponic shop, but I don't really need another chamber...


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Re: A Better Shotgun Terrarium (Science!) [Re: psillymathhead]
    #16569300 - 07/22/12 06:28 PM (2 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:


I would be curious if anyone has used growstones as an alternative to the large chunky perlite in the SGFC....  This was recommended to me at my local hydroponic shop, but I don't really need another chamber...




I've used growstones- they work well.


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Re: A Better Shotgun Terrarium (Science!) [Re: psillymathhead]
    #16569368 - 07/22/12 06:41 PM (2 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

psillymathhead said:
I think the waste heat emitted from a very close light system (say a 2' flouro with ballast/reflector) combining with the light hitting the top, all heating the top area of the chamber (and above) has a lot more effect than the light exciting contents of the chamber. 





You know those ionic air filters? Moves air around without a fan?
I think it would be intersting to compare using one of those in the room not not using it.
Not for the filtration, just for the air movement.


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OfflineAceofShroomz
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Re: A Better Shotgun Terrarium (Science!) [Re: Rammy]
    #16618710 - 07/30/12 10:06 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Yeah you tell RR and the experienced growers how to cultivate OP! What do they know lol... Funny guy.. Fun Guy.. Fungi! AhhHHhhHhh ;D


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