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 ManicMongrel
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 Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#15316759 - 11/03/11 06:59 AM (6 months, 23 days ago) |
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I know you're skeptical about using fermented substrate as an additive, though do you think it might work if its added as a middle or bottom layer along with composted substrate?
I have a batch of fermented bran I made by boiling wheat bran and a few rye grains, it started brewing in matter of hours. The reek of lactic acid was so strong I had to put the jars in bags.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: ManicMongrel]
#15317417 - 11/03/11 11:01 AM (6 months, 22 days ago) |
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Fermented substrates are protected by lactic acid bacteria and lactic acid. When layering with other stuff, the lactic acid will get neutralized and other microbes may take over. Usually you see mold growing in the contact zone after a week.
Bran will ferment fine, but it is difficult to use afterwards, as it holds so much excess water.
Carsten
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Immortal Corrupter
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#15320344 - 11/03/11 11:27 PM (6 months, 22 days ago) |
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I've been mulling it over and I'm going to start this project tomorrow
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sof4r0ckeRs1984
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#15320824 - 11/04/11 05:39 AM (6 months, 22 days ago) |
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So Carsten, I'd like to make a little experiment with straw/dung lovers. Do you think it would be good to use only straw and no grain involved?
Greetz
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The Horrors... Really bad example of dosage, set and setting.
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Mycelio
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Yes, better use pure straw. Adding small amounts of grain like 5% will not change the PH much, but raise the risk of later contams. 10% or more will cause a very low PH and then cube mycelium may not be able to colonize.
Carsten
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sof4r0ckeRs1984
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#15321045 - 11/04/11 07:35 AM (6 months, 22 days ago) |
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Ok, thanks for this detailed info.
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The Horrors... Really bad example of dosage, set and setting.
[quote]starfire_xes said:
Don't worry about being ugly. Beauty is only skin deep.
Ugly goes all the way to the bone....
[/quote]
Tired of PF-Tek? Swwerts Whole Brown Rice Cakes Pictorial
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sof4r0ckeRs1984
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#15343730 - 11/09/11 07:33 AM (6 months, 16 days ago) |
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Hi Carsten.
I just cooked some straw some days ago. Left it in the straw water and put it all in one vessel. It didn't start bubblikg yet and it smells quite like soy milk lol. Is it wrong to let it ferment in the straw water or should one take new water for that?
Greetz
--------------------
The Horrors... Really bad example of dosage, set and setting.
[quote]starfire_xes said:
Don't worry about being ugly. Beauty is only skin deep.
Ugly goes all the way to the bone....
[/quote]
Tired of PF-Tek? Swwerts Whole Brown Rice Cakes Pictorial
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Mycelio
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Hi sof4r0ckeRs1984,
you want to leave it in the soaking water, keeping soluble carbohydrates as food for the fermentation. Only cooking is not necessary. Now you may have to wait a bit longer until the lactic acid bacteria as well as yeasts recolonize, but it should still work, as these microbes float around everywhere. Don't forget to cover your vessel and stir every day.
Carsten
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sof4r0ckeRs1984
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#15344035 - 11/09/11 09:05 AM (6 months, 16 days ago) |
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Oh man, soy milk smells so delicious ^^
--------------------
The Horrors... Really bad example of dosage, set and setting.
[quote]starfire_xes said:
Don't worry about being ugly. Beauty is only skin deep.
Ugly goes all the way to the bone....
[/quote]
Tired of PF-Tek? Swwerts Whole Brown Rice Cakes Pictorial
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 HorizonSpawn
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#15680823 - 01/17/12 08:49 PM (4 months, 9 days ago) |
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Any note-worthy updates???... I am looking for ways to bypass the energy-hungry steps of pasturization and sterilization...
Hoping to kickstart some experimentations myself 
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sof4r0ckeRs1984
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: HorizonSpawn]
#15686960 - 01/19/12 05:48 AM (4 months, 8 days ago) |
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I have tried it with straw but it smelled like slurry
--------------------
The Horrors... Really bad example of dosage, set and setting.
[quote]starfire_xes said:
Don't worry about being ugly. Beauty is only skin deep.
Ugly goes all the way to the bone....
[/quote]
Tired of PF-Tek? Swwerts Whole Brown Rice Cakes Pictorial
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Mycelio
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Too bad, pure straw always worked for me. Fermenting complete substrate mixtures in freezer bags turned out not to be reliable. There is too much air exchange through the plastic and with grain content below 10% the PH doesn't drop deep enough, so I ended up with a couple of weak mold spots and had to dispose of a lot of fine substrate. As there was too much odor of alcohol and acetic acid, I didn't use the rest for oysters, instead I put some Coprinus comatus substrate on top and cased it after full colonization. One of those bags appears to start fruiting right now, I will post pictures in case of success.
Carsten
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HorizonSpawn
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#15700980 - 01/22/12 07:50 AM (4 months, 4 days ago) |
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Most excellent, on the successes  Hope to have some of my own success stories in the future
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Please assume any and all prints exchanged are "WILD" in nature; and thus, should NOT be considered ASEPTIC...
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 RogerRabbit
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: HorizonSpawn] 1
#15701541 - 01/22/12 10:33 AM (4 months, 4 days ago) |
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I'm pretty sure I mentioned this earlier in this thread, but you can definitely sterilize grains by steaming pf tek style for 8 hours. I've had 100% success with atmospheric pressure steam sterilization. You can use a shorter time with higher temperature, or a longer time at lower temps.
RR
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jtronique
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#15866534 - 02/26/12 02:21 PM (3 months, 16 hours ago) |
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Very awesome thread. Gorgeous Oysters, Mycelio! I am curious about your variety of Straw or Hay. Was it Alfalfa? I would like to experiment with Rabbit food pellets. The brand I am familiar with, I am pretty sure is Alfalfa. Many thanks in advance for your thoughts.
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superfunkibey
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: jtronique]
#15868932 - 02/27/12 12:23 AM (3 months, 6 hours ago) |
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Any new updates on this thread? I am considering giving this a try to make sorghum grain spawn as I don't have a pc. Does the jars have to been sealed airtight during fermentation? How about after inoculation; would they need the usual polyfill air holes?
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: superfunkibey]
#15869308 - 02/27/12 05:42 AM (3 months, 1 hour ago) |
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@jtronique
I use wheat straw pellets, which is sold as pet bedding. Regarding alfalfa, see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfalfa
You may find alfalfa pellets as food supplement for horses.
@superfunkibey
No news right now, my Coprinus comatus blocks got overrun by gnats. I got lots of primordia, but only one crippled mushroom emerged, so I moved them outside.
Never tried sorghum, if you can get wheat berries, it may be best to start a small jar from each of these grains and compare. Jar lids can be screwed tight or almost tight, the produced CO2 will be able to get out.
After inoculation (on top, don't mix!), the jars need more air than usually.
Carsten
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jtronique
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 Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#15872381 - 02/27/12 06:13 PM (2 months, 30 days ago) |
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@Mycelio, thank you , checking out your info now! That helps clarify a lot!
@superfunkibey , interesting that you said Sorghum! I have a story to tell you. (Have you started yours yet?)
I just finished the 24 hour first soak of Sorghum. (Like literally, I'm drying my hands from completing this... so I'm psyched that you asked.)
Actually, Sorghum is 1 of 4 grains I am testing in parallel atm.
The other 3 grains are: Steel cut Oats, Brown Rice, and Kashi (7 grain) pilaf , as I had it laying around.
I am most impressed already with the Sorghum, within 24 hours it had a very fruity, sweet smelling juice, reminiscent of Molasses. It was only then that I remembered that there is a type of sweetener called "sorghum molasses", "made from sorghum syrup," in some regions of the U.S. I think my grandmother said it was popular in the depression. Anyway, considering its high sugar content and response to fermentation, my money is on this one being the most successful grain spawn.
I am intending to try to propogate Portobello mushrooms. Although if anyone has a suggestion for an edible, I may be swayed ;-)
Here is some info on Sweet Sorghum (which I found interesting for nutritional aspects) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorghum_Molasses
This is the brand of Organic Sorghum that I used:
http://www.celiac.com/glutenfreemall/shiloh-farms-whole-grain-organic-glutenfree-sorghum-p-336.html
I will definitely post how my stems react in each environment once the grain has "matured".
Many many many thanks for a very interesting Tek and sorry if there were any very obvious glaring errors , I'm a Noob taking quite a high road ;-)
Cheers,
Jill
P.S. I did read the entire thread - I believe Mycelio's feelings on adding culture were more or less to let nature do its thing and introduce itself to the grain? At this point, I also agree, but I have noticed I have Culturelle probiotic capsules here which are comprised exclusively of Lactobacillus (and Inulin filler). So I'm curious, but I'd like to save those and go au natural. Although it would be pretty easy in future spawns to try opening up a capsule or two and mixing it in. Just a thought though, wanted to mention it in case some of you are on 2nd and 3rd generation experiments.
In addition, I sort of stumbled on a mention of a culture called Kefir......which was different than the Bokashi. It's the same culture you would imagine in the probiotic milk, but you can also get "water grains", for fermenting Juice, etc. Often this is sold as the "vegan version", but I never knew there were two derivatives of Kefir until this thread had me digging deep into new knowledge. From my preliminary research it sounds like this is a symbiont of Yeast and LB... Too soon to know if having it could accelerate things, perhaps for some of you who are on round 2 or 3 of experimentation, I thought I'd mention it to you (as well as being a good starter for some homebrews of alcohol....)
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obi
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: jtronique]
#15874673 - 02/28/12 02:42 AM (2 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
jtronique said:
In addition, I sort of stumbled on a mention of a culture called Kefir......which was different than the Bokashi. It's the same culture you would imagine in the probiotic milk, but you can also get "water grains", for fermenting Juice, etc. Often this is sold as the "vegan version", but I never knew there were two derivatives of Kefir until this thread had me digging deep into new knowledge. From my preliminary research it sounds like this is a symbiont of Yeast and LB... Too soon to know if having it could accelerate things, perhaps for some of you who are on round 2 or 3 of experimentation, I thought I'd mention it to you (as well as being a good starter for some homebrews of alcohol....)
I mentioned it in this thread but I never did do an experiment. I've lost my kefir culture, sadly.
I did experiment with a sour dough starter a couple of weeks ago and it worked really well...even at really low temps the fermentation kept going.
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Edited by obi (02/28/12 02:43 AM)
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HorizonSpawn
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: obi]
#15875241 - 02/28/12 08:09 AM (2 months, 29 days ago) |
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I still haven't started my first attempts, yet
Curious; would a bit of kombucha be a viable "kickstart"?... Furthermore; would it not be beneficial to use some of the previous batch's water to inoculate a new batch?
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Please assume any and all prints exchanged are "WILD" in nature; and thus, should NOT be considered ASEPTIC...
NOTE: Please excuse my brevity, as it is a bitch 'n' a half and slow as hell to type on this here phone
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