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 Javadog
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 Elm Oysters
#15243704 - 10/18/11 03:52 PM (7 months, 7 days ago) |
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Hello all,
I have Elm Oyster (Hypsizygus ulmarius) fruiting right now, and wanted
to get some advice on when these should be picked.
As of this morning*:
Thank you for the time.
JD
* Did anyone else notice that the Shroomery was very slow to respond
this morning? I found that many page-loads died before completion.
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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EvilMushroom666
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15243797 - 10/18/11 04:05 PM (7 months, 7 days ago) |
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Very nice fruits you have their my friend! Simply beautiful!
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 Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15244184 - 10/18/11 05:32 PM (7 months, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
Javadog said:
... and wanted to get some advice on when these should be picked.
Looking good! They will continue to grow, but the stems may get tough soon. I'd pick them tonight or tomorrow.
Quote:
Javadog said:
* Did anyone else notice that the Shroomery was very slow to respond
this morning? I found that many page-loads died before completion.
Yep, it was the same from here.
Carsten
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NSF
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15244577 - 10/18/11 07:22 PM (7 months, 7 days ago) |
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I hate to break it to you but those aren't Elm Oyster, they are just regular oysters 
Elm Oyster doesn't have decurrent gills, they don't come down the stype at all.
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EvilMushroom666
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: NSF]
#15244607 - 10/18/11 07:29 PM (7 months, 7 days ago) |
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I remember reading that most if not all the elm oyster cultures that
are in circulation on the shroomery are not infact Hypsizygus ulmarius.
I found the thread here:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14469126#14469126
Is that the culture you received from myself Java? I am not 100% of its
origins but it either came from Sporeworks or Aloha.
Either way you have some pretty fruits that I am sure will be nice and
tasty
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Javadog
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Well, I'll be.....LOL.
I was given this by someone EM, but I would have to look who.
it is a tad embarrassing...but this was my first time with
this species, so learning was certain to occur! ;0)
No worries either way. I am going to taste them to be sure.
Onward and upward,
JD
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Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
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NSF
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15246340 - 10/19/11 08:01 AM (7 months, 7 days ago) |
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I had the same thing happen with H. ulmarius too. First time i grew it i got P. columbinus. That's why i was so quick to judge.
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trout
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: NSF]
#15246399 - 10/19/11 08:19 AM (7 months, 6 days ago) |
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So has anyone found a true H. Ulmarius culture? I have the standard oyster labled H. U. but I just call it Elm oyster when refering to it as that is the now common name for this type of oyster. But I guess I would like to know what it realy is and also get a true H. Ulmarius. Any thoughts?
Trout
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I need a good Hot Weather Oyster culture!!
Well things don't always look as they are and things can be misread and mistaken for what they realy are so don't read too much into what I say since I might be mistaken myself. And remember I rarely ever give a definate answer.
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Buckeye Oysters
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: NSF]
#15246884 - 10/19/11 10:51 AM (7 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
NSF said:
I hate to break it to you but those aren't Elm Oyster, they are just regular oysters
Elm Oyster doesn't have decurrent gills, they don't come down the stype at all.
You are thinking of Beech mushrooms (Hypsizygus tessulatus) that do not have decurrent gills. There are a lot of mislabeled pics of them on the internet. Elm oysters have decurrent gills, see GGMM pg. 256. They come in white to beige color as well.
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Evolution is Lamarckism in disguise. Adaptation never creates a new species or trait, but rather the new species/trait always existed within the parent DNA until circumstances allowed it to be activated. For instance, every wolf has the DNA for poodles, but that DNA would never be revealed without man selectively breeding for it.
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Buckeye Oysters
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Javadog, next time dont take the top of the bag to fruit, rather cut several small holes or slits on the sides of the block and they will come out there. Removing the top dries the inside of the bag more.
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Evolution is Lamarckism in disguise. Adaptation never creates a new species or trait, but rather the new species/trait always existed within the parent DNA until circumstances allowed it to be activated. For instance, every wolf has the DNA for poodles, but that DNA would never be revealed without man selectively breeding for it.
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: trout]
#15246980 - 10/19/11 11:09 AM (7 months, 6 days ago) |
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Thanks for the heads up, guys. I bought my H. Ulmarius as a liquid culture from The Mushroom Patch. I made some plates from it, but haven't had a chance to fruit it. It is going into a grain jar tomorrow!
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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Javadog
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15247011 - 10/19/11 11:15 AM (7 months, 6 days ago) |
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Thank you all for the info.
I am going to think about this one. (maybe "whew!" ;0)
I will save the bag next too BO. I have done this with my straw sacks,
but never my sawdust blocks.
Take care,
JD
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
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Mycelio
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Quote:
Buckeye Oysters said:
Quote:
NSF said:
I hate to break it to you but those aren't Elm Oyster, they are just regular oysters
Elm Oyster doesn't have decurrent gills, they don't come down the stype at all.
You are thinking of Beech mushrooms (Hypsizygus tessulatus) that do not have decurrent gills. There are a lot of mislabeled pics of them on the internet. Elm oysters have decurrent gills, see GGMM pg. 256. They come in white to beige color as well.
No, Stamets got it wrong too. He and Rush wayne got a mislabeled culture in the mid 90s and spread it worldwide.
Hypsizygus ulmarius grows like a large, pale version of H. tessulatus. Its gills never run down the stem. See here for correct images:
http://www.mushroomexpert.com/hypsizygus_ulmarius.html
http://www.messiah.edu/Oakes/fungi_on_wood/gilled%20fungi/species%20pages/Hypsizygus%20ulmarius.htm
I once got a tiny fraction of a dirty spore print from a mushroom hunter. Unfortunately I never got a clean culture out of it. Growth was OK on grain, but very slow on sawdust. Primordia grew like spikes and then got taken over by pin mold.
Carsten
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15247543 - 10/19/11 01:05 PM (7 months, 6 days ago) |
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Wow, great info, Carsten! I'm not overly hopeful that my culture is the real deal. Aloha Medicinals lists two H. ulmarius strains, both of which they isolated themselves.
I wonder if we should do a group buy of the real thing?
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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Javadog
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15247624 - 10/19/11 01:23 PM (7 months, 6 days ago) |
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Well, that is that. I have an Oyster.
I will have to watch out for this species. I was looking forward to trying it.
Thank you for helping settle the matter Carsten.
JD
--------------------
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Buckeye Oysters
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15248442 - 10/19/11 04:36 PM (7 months, 6 days ago) |
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Well I use the elm oyster strain from Aloha Medicinals and it has decurrent caps like a oyster.
Do you have source about Stamets getting mislabeled strain? I would think he would update his GGMM with that information if it were true. In fact if you go to his website http://www.fungi.com/kits/outdoor.html there is an outdoor Hypsizygus ulmarius kit and its pic looks like it has decurrent caps to me.
"Give your Garden a "HUG":
The Hypsizygus ulmarius Garden Patch™ ★★
A great ally for most garden vegetables, this aggressive Garden Oyster mushroom unlocks nutrients from straw, sawdust, and organic debris, feeding the roots of underlying plants. Ideal for over-wintering and mulching, or early Spring planting where straw is overlaid, the HUG kit is a natural way to recycle nutrients and grow gourmet mushrooms at the same time."
In my opinion the elm oyster strain as sold by Aloha and represented in the GGMM should really just be a variety of ostreatus just like columbinus is, whoever is right. It does have a thicker and broader cap than whites or blues, but everything otherwise is the same.
--------------------
Evolution is Lamarckism in disguise. Adaptation never creates a new species or trait, but rather the new species/trait always existed within the parent DNA until circumstances allowed it to be activated. For instance, every wolf has the DNA for poodles, but that DNA would never be revealed without man selectively breeding for it.
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NSF
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Well this is just a can of worms we've opened up here!
I'm growing some tessulatus at the moment and those are definitely different to oysters, much smaller and definitely not decurrent.
I don't know how i don't have a pic of them. When I get home in a couple of days I'll take a pic and share.
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Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: NSF]
#15249179 - 10/19/11 06:54 PM (7 months, 6 days ago) |
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Lets keep looking into this can of worms. Perhaps we can find out what this white oyster really is.
The 'Hypsizygus ulmarius', we all have has the typical taste, smell and shape of Pleurotus ostreatus or P. pulmonarius. Gills run down the stem and the mushrooms turn yellow when becoming dry. The mycelium colonizes and fruits as fast as P. pulmonarius. It loves straw and when fruiting sideways it often forms enormous clusters like P. ostreatus. As the mycelium on agar can grow thin and on substrate sometimes almost rhizomorphic, while early primordia clusters in high CO2 environment grow like a cauliflower rather than corals, I am not sure if it is a variation of P.o., P.p. or something close.
Even if we say shape is not important, everybody who has grown or eaten Hypsizygus tesselatus or what I consider to be H. ulmarius, should know the very different smell and taste, which should be enough to prove that we grow a Pleurotus and not a Hypsizygus.
Trying to find the source of this confusion I ended up with Stamets description in GGMM and Waynes here,
http://www.bio.net/mm/mycology/1997-May/005601.html
Both perfectly describe the white oyster mentioned above (as Strain DAOM #189249 from the canadian department of agriculture), while descriptions of trustworthy mycologists don't match. To be honest, I see Stamets and Wayne as brilliant growers, but not as outstanding in terms of taxonomy. Try to make sense out of the Sparassis crispa chapter in GGMM and you know what I mean.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but a mix up at the culture library, where all our cultures originate from, seems to be the only plausible reason. Especially as this type of error happens often. Just remember that Cordyceps sinensis from a culture bank, which turned out to be a Fusarium and keep in mind that they often couldn't verify the identity of strains they receive.
Cheers, Carsten
PS: I also often wonder if this mushroom is P. ostreatus var. florida. Has anybody grown that one and can shed some light on this?
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HorizonSpawn
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15250382 - 10/19/11 11:22 PM (7 months, 6 days ago) |
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I am really really hoping to find a legitimate culture of Hypsizygus ulmarius' AND Sparassis crispa (funny that you mention it)... So, please please let's get to the bottom of this 
My eyes will be glued!
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Please assume any and all prints exchanged are "WILD" in nature; and thus, should NOT be considered ASEPTIC...
NOTE: Please excuse my brevity, as it is a bitch 'n' a half and slow as hell to type on this here phone
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Mycelio
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Is anybody able to measure the spore size with a good microscope?
Spores of H. ulmarius should be small (5-6 µ) and spherical, while those of P. ostreatus and P. pulmonarius are larger (8-10.5 x 3-3.5 µ for P.o. and 7-10 x 2.5-5 µ for P.p.) and cylindrical to kidney shaped.
Then mushroom hunters sometimes use chemicals to tell if an oyster is either P.o. or P.p. A drop of KOH on the cap surface of P. pulmonarius should turn orange, while a drop of sulfovanilline (fresh mixture of sulphuric acid and vanilline) on the cap of P. ostreatus should turn red. It should be interesting to know how fresh fruitbodies of this white oyster would react.
Carsten
PS: Pleurotus populinus might also be a candidate, where KOH on the cap should turn yellow or show no reaction.
Edited by Mycelio (10/20/11 06:03 AM)
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15251050 - 10/20/11 06:10 AM (7 months, 6 days ago) |
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I just downloaded from JSTOR the 1986 Redhead paper that everyone seems to reference with regard to H. ulmarius:
S. A. Redhead, "Mycological Observations 15-16: On Omphalia and Pleurotus," Mycologia, Vol. 78, No. 4 (Jul. - Aug., 1986), pp. 522-528.
It mostly discussed H. tessellatus, but it contains the following key for distinguishing between H. ulmarius and H. tessellatus.
KEY TO HYPSIZYGUS SPECIES
1. Spores small, 4-5(-6) x 4-5 μm, globose to subglobose; pileus when fresh often guttate-marmorate; basidiomes often cespitose; in North America frequently on Populus sp. and Acer saccharum, occasionally on Betula sp., Ulmus sp., Abies sp., and Fagus sp.
.......................................... H. tessellatus
1. Spores larger, (5-)5.5-6(-7) x 5-5.5(-6) μm, subglobose to broadly ellipsoidal; pileus not guttate, smooth or often areolate with age; basidiomes usually solitary; in North America frequently on Ulmus sp. and Acer negundo L., occasionally on Populus sp. and other Acer sp.
........................................... H . ulmarius
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
Edited by Terry M (10/20/11 06:28 AM)
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NSF
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15251114 - 10/20/11 07:00 AM (7 months, 6 days ago) |
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Care to translate that Terry?! :p
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: NSF]
#15251154 - 10/20/11 07:19 AM (7 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
NSF said:
Care to translate that Terry?! :p
No.
I'm not a mycologist. Though I did look up guttate and marmorate.
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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Aleon
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15251228 - 10/20/11 07:50 AM (7 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mycelio said:
Is anybody able to measure the spore size with a good microscope?
Spores of H. ulmarius should be small (5-6 µ) and spherical, while those of P. ostreatus and P. pulmonarius are larger (8-10.5 x 3-3.5 µ for P.o. and 7-10 x 2.5-5 µ for P.p.) and cylindrical to kidney shaped.
Then mushroom hunters sometimes use chemicals to tell if an oyster is either P.o. or P.p. A drop of KOH on the cap surface of P. pulmonarius should turn orange, while a drop of sulfovanilline (fresh mixture of sulphuric acid and vanilline) on the cap of P. ostreatus should turn red. It should be interesting to know how fresh fruitbodies of this white oyster would react.
Carsten
PS: Pleurotus populinus might also be a candidate, where KOH on the cap should turn yellow or show no reaction.
Does the KOH or sulfovanilline thing actually work? That is a nifty trick if so and would love to start carrying some when im strain hunting.
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Everything we have ever been told is a lie.
Anybody who tells you something is lying, even me.
Seek the truth.
The highest goodness is like water.
Water benefits the ten-thousand things and does not contend.
It dwells in places that most people disdain.
Therefore it approaches Tao.
Passages from a translation of the ancient Tao Te Ching
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Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Aleon]
#15251588 - 10/20/11 09:55 AM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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I never used those chemicals myself as I don't have them, but got the tip from experienced german hunters, who found it in their literature. The KOH effects are mentioned here:
http://www.mushroomexpert.com/pleurotus_pulmonarius.html
http://www.mushroomexpert.com/pleurotus_populinus.html
Carsten
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15255740 - 10/21/11 06:09 AM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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This H. ulmarius misidentification has been driving me nuts. I just found a recent H. ulmarius thread over at FungiForm:
http://www.fungiforum.com/index.php?showtopic=1296&st=20&gopid=12938&#entry12938
There's a pic shown of an Aloha H. ulmarius which appears not to have decurrent gills. And it looks like the wild species at MushroomExpert.com. Mycelio, what do you think? If this is true, I definitely want to do a group buy from Aloha, and exterminate all the false H. ulmarius in circulation!
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15255897 - 10/21/11 07:40 AM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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Keep calm Terry, in my eyes that pic of Frederick is too blurry and shows that pale Pleurotus. Also keep in mind what Buckeye wrote earlier:
Quote:
Buckeye Oysters said:
...
In my opinion the elm oyster strain as sold by Aloha and represented in the GGMM should really just be a variety of ostreatus just like columbinus is, whoever is right. It does have a thicker and broader cap than whites or blues, but everything otherwise is the same.
Their culture list only states 'isolated by Aloha', which does not necessarily mean isolated from the wild. I would expect them to have isolated those strains from spore prints of cultivated mushrooms.
To be sure, we would either need to get our hands on a commercial culture from southeast Asia or start from a local wild find.
Growing Hypsizygus tesselatus/marmoreus might be more rewarding. I don't think there would be a difference tastewise.
Carsten
Edited by Mycelio (10/21/11 10:32 AM)
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15256337 - 10/21/11 09:56 AM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mycelio said:
To be sure, we would either need to get our hands on a commercial culture from southeast Asia or start from a local wild find.
Growing Hypsizygus tesselatus/marmoreus might be more rewarding. I don't think there would be a difference tastewise.
Carsten
From what I've read, H. tesselatus is a better tasting mushroom than the real H. ulmarius anyway. 
I'm growing out my "H. ulmarius" just for grins. I bought it from "The Mushroom Patch," in Canada. We'll (literally) see what fruit it bears.
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15256470 - 10/21/11 10:33 AM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
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I just emailed John at Aloha to find out what he knows about their H. ulmarius cultures.
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15256571 - 10/21/11 11:00 AM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
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Interesting. I'm pretty sure he never realized the issue.
Regarding the common 'H.u.', it is still a very fast and extremely productive oyster, especially on straw. It also fruits in a wide range of temperatures, so it is not bad at all to have this strain.
Carsten
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15256580 - 10/21/11 11:03 AM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
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Well, I got a reply from John already. I'd mentioned the spore characteristics nicely described in the 1986 Redhead paper.
Quote:
Hi Terry,
As far as I know ours are true Hypzyzygus ulmarius. We have done DNA analysis, but not morphological spore based analysis. You should fruit these two strains and do the morphological paper. Shall I send you a couple cultures?
I immediately wrote back "yes!"
Hmmm. I seem to be gradually morphing into a mycologist. 
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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EvilMushroom666
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15256595 - 10/21/11 11:09 AM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
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HorizonSpawn
Gettin' my grow on :)
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My primary interest, as is of my currently expanding Stropharia rugoso-annulata, is for better crop development of my fruit and vegetable gardens...
The fact that it has a good shelf life and serves as a tasty treat, is as icing on the cake
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Please assume any and all prints exchanged are "WILD" in nature; and thus, should NOT be considered ASEPTIC...
NOTE: Please excuse my brevity, as it is a bitch 'n' a half and slow as hell to type on this here phone
Edited by HorizonSpawn (10/21/11 01:00 PM)
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Mycelio
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Hey Terry, that is a cool offer!
DNA analysis can only be as good as the identification of the two samples you compare... When trying to find out if Pleurotus nebrodensis, ferulae or florida are separate species or variations of eryngii and ostreatus I ran into many confusions, obviously based upon mislabeled cultures in culture banks. For example one paper proves by DNA analysis that P. florida is a variation of P. ostreatus, while the next one uses the same methods and finds P. florida belongs to P. pulmonarius. Proper identification within the genus Pleurotus is another large can of worms...
Anyway, a future grow by you will be extremely fascinating. Hopefully somebody chimes in, who can have a look on the spores and measure their size.
Cheers, Carsten
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15257442 - 10/21/11 02:20 PM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
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I wonder if I can use this to justify to myself purchase of a good trinocular microscope, plus an inexpensive stage micrometer?
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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trout
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15257472 - 10/21/11 02:29 PM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
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Well I have access to a very nice large Zeiss microscope. What x do you need for the spore analysis and measuring. It is my dads scope he bought at an auction from a lab and is very nice and takes wonderful pictures with built in cameras and I think I can attach his new digital to it as well. If you think this will work I would provide any documentation I could in exchange for spore prints and tissue cultures/wedges from the original strains. I also have a "H. U." but I think it is the standard oyster like I stated above I could print it and compare as well.
Trout
--------------------
I need a good Hot Weather Oyster culture!!
Well things don't always look as they are and things can be misread and mistaken for what they realy are so don't read too much into what I say since I might be mistaken myself. And remember I rarely ever give a definate answer.
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trout
Flyfisherman
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: trout]
#15257481 - 10/21/11 02:31 PM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
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I am sure he has a stage micrometer as well. He teaches microbiology.
--------------------
I need a good Hot Weather Oyster culture!!
Well things don't always look as they are and things can be misread and mistaken for what they realy are so don't read too much into what I say since I might be mistaken myself. And remember I rarely ever give a definate answer.
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Terry M
Stranger in a Strange Land
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: trout]
#15257521 - 10/21/11 02:41 PM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
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Wow, thanks for the offer, Trout! I think I will take you up on it when I get to the fruiting stage.
Now is not a good time for me to be buy myself a microscope. We just learned today that our second dog needs hip surgery as well (first dog is already scheduled). We're taking him to Tufts for it, as this particular surgery is not routine. $$$
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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trout
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15257709 - 10/21/11 03:32 PM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
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Just talked to dad and he says that would not be a problem. I may have to track down some 35mm film if we can't get his digi attached to it. I might even get lucky and get to take it home for a while, right now it is just sitting in a corner giving it's dust cover a workout. Just let me know Terry.
Trout
--------------------
I need a good Hot Weather Oyster culture!!
Well things don't always look as they are and things can be misread and mistaken for what they realy are so don't read too much into what I say since I might be mistaken myself. And remember I rarely ever give a definate answer.
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NSF
Eager to learn
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: trout]
#15260774 - 10/22/11 06:44 AM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
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This is a great collaboration. How far about are you terry and trout? I guess it doesn't matter, send 2 spore prints or fruit bodies won't change the size of spores. As in, distance won't be a factor.
Wow, 35mm film and then scanning it...that's so 1997! I can't wait to see what comes of this.
--------------------
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trout
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: NSF]
#15260998 - 10/22/11 08:16 AM (7 months, 3 days ago) |
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1991, I used it for a junior high science fair project. I got the Kodak award for photography. Spore clusters of Sordaria Femicola fungus. All I did was press the shutter button but that was good enough for them. My teacher kept the pic on her wall all through high school, probably still there. I am excited to play with it again. It is a Bad A.. scope. I really hope we can get the digi attached. That will make life so much easier. I may actually look at and photograph some of my, stored for a rainy day, "microscopy spores".
Trout
--------------------
I need a good Hot Weather Oyster culture!!
Well things don't always look as they are and things can be misread and mistaken for what they realy are so don't read too much into what I say since I might be mistaken myself. And remember I rarely ever give a definate answer.
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Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: trout]
#15269991 - 10/24/11 07:26 AM (7 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
trout said:
Well I have access to a very nice large Zeiss microscope. What x do you need for the spore analysis and measuring. It is my dads scope he bought at an auction from a lab and is very nice and takes wonderful pictures with built in cameras and I think I can attach his new digital to it as well. If you think this will work I would provide any documentation I could in exchange for spore prints and tissue cultures/wedges from the original strains. I also have a "H. U." but I think it is the standard oyster like I stated above I could print it and compare as well.
Trout
Hi Trout, great that you can help! That Zeiss should be perfect. I know that people use 1000x (100x objective and 10x ocular with a drop of immersion oil between the objective and the covering glass of the slide), if they want to inspect the spore surface, looking for spikes and other things. Just to have a look on shape and size, a smaller magnification without the use of oil should be enough.
If you could have a look on the spores of your common 'H.u.' first, it would be most interesting for most of us. I already thought about sending you a dried mushroom, but I dried them together with other species, so they must be heavily 'contaminated' by other spores.
Cheers, Carsten
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trout
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15270188 - 10/24/11 08:30 AM (7 months, 1 day ago) |
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Well I think it has the oil immersion 100x even if I don't need it. It has a bunch of stuff and extras. I do not have any of my H.U. growing a the moment but I will break some out and get it started again. I was growing it in the summer and have switched over to cooler weather strains but It will be interesting to see how it grows in the cold anyway. I will probably do a mini grow and isolate it so that I get a clean print to work from. The scope is at my parents house 4 hrs away but next time I go up I am going to try and get my dad to let me take it for a while.
Trout
--------------------
I need a good Hot Weather Oyster culture!!
Well things don't always look as they are and things can be misread and mistaken for what they realy are so don't read too much into what I say since I might be mistaken myself. And remember I rarely ever give a definate answer.
Edited by trout (10/24/11 08:32 AM)
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Javadog
Continuing along
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: trout]
#15272397 - 10/24/11 04:58 PM (7 months, 1 day ago) |
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Hey team ;0)
Someone was posting photos of what looked to be an Elm Oyster on Mush Cult
when I suggested that he put in an ID request.
He already had, but got no TIs interest.
Maybe you could take a look:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15248352#15248352
(the gills are not decurrent)
Any other questions to ask him? I can lead him here.
Take care,
JD
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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trout
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15272612 - 10/24/11 05:50 PM (7 months, 1 day ago) |
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Well I think he printed it so I guess spore color would be important. Also on what/where was it growing. It was a fairly good pic so with this info someone who has actually seen them in the wild should be able to ID. It looked good to me if the other info matches. He said he already had it on agar lets hope it takes.
Trout
--------------------
I need a good Hot Weather Oyster culture!!
Well things don't always look as they are and things can be misread and mistaken for what they realy are so don't read too much into what I say since I might be mistaken myself. And remember I rarely ever give a definate answer.
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: trout]
#15273074 - 10/24/11 06:55 PM (7 months, 1 day ago) |
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these are the elm oysters that i found.
at least i think they are.
the spore print is white.
and was attached to a hardwood tree.
do they only grow on elm trees?
--------------------
LOVE PEACE AND BEAUTIFUL MUSIC.
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jimmyjame1
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after taking a few seconds to research an elm tree. i now can say for sure my fruit was from an elm tree.
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LOVE PEACE AND BEAUTIFUL MUSIC.
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Javadog
Continuing along
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I hope that you are successful.
Are you working with agar? I would love to trade a wedge.
Take care,
JD
P.S. Maybe we can get a more definitive ID here...
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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trout
Flyfisherman
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Well anyone have anything else it could be? I would say that is a real deal Hypsizygus ulmarius(Elm oyster). Am I missing something? Nice timing jimmyjame1. Like I said lets hope it takes off and you can share a few wedges. I am sure many will be willing to trade for one.
Trout
--------------------
I need a good Hot Weather Oyster culture!!
Well things don't always look as they are and things can be misread and mistaken for what they realy are so don't read too much into what I say since I might be mistaken myself. And remember I rarely ever give a definate answer.
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15273189 - 10/24/11 07:09 PM (7 months, 1 day ago) |
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yeah its on agar right now.
im gonna make a transfer once it grows out a bit, and then i will be more than happy to have a wedge sent to you.
thanks for all your help. once i get my microscope ill look a the spores and get a closer look at whats going on!
--------------------
LOVE PEACE AND BEAUTIFUL MUSIC.
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jimmyjame1
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once i get this grown out, ill host a giveaway!
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LOVE PEACE AND BEAUTIFUL MUSIC.
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Javadog
Continuing along
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Sounds like a plan.
You already had karma on your side, but I feel much more positive
energy directed towards you all of a sudden.
;0)
JD
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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HorizonSpawn
Gettin' my grow on :)
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Quote:
jimmyjame1 said:
once i get this grown out, ill host a giveaway!
Most excellent!
--------------------
Please assume any and all prints exchanged are "WILD" in nature; and thus, should NOT be considered ASEPTIC...
NOTE: Please excuse my brevity, as it is a bitch 'n' a half and slow as hell to type on this here phone
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Mycelio
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Nice development!
Jimmijame1, it is very generous of you to help! If possible, please keep the spore print for further examination or cultivation trials.
Cheers, Carsten
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15275241 - 10/25/11 07:59 AM (7 months, 1 day ago) |
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well i live right by the woods where these guys are going fricken rampid!
honestly i only harvested like 3 fruit, but they were everywhere!
so if this sample doesnt work ill go out and grab another sample hopefully before winter
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LOVE PEACE AND BEAUTIFUL MUSIC.
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Javadog
Continuing along
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Hoo hoo!
(I admit it...I looked up "rampid"...I think that it is a cross
between "rapid" and "rampant"...I like it ;0)
JD
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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Mycelio
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Jimmijame1, did they all grow directly from wood?
Appearing everywhere is not exactly what elm oysters are supposed to do, but perhaps you are in the middle of a hot spot. Please compare with the links below. Can you make an 'in situ' photo, showing one of them outside growing out of a log?
Thanks, Carsten
http://www.mushroomexpert.com/hypsizygus_ulmarius.html
http://www.messiah.edu/Oakes/fungi_on_wood/gilled%20fungi/species%20pages/Hypsizygus%20ulmarius.htm
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15275716 - 10/25/11 09:56 AM (7 months, 22 hours ago) |
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ill go out and get a shot of them today
yeah they look identical
growing from cracks of an elm tree
--------------------
LOVE PEACE AND BEAUTIFUL MUSIC.
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jimmyjame1
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cause you asked so nicely
here ya go
RAMPID!
     
some are old and some are really high so i cant get great pictures of the tops of them, but you can see that the gills dont go down the stems and they are growing from what i beleive to be decaying elm
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LOVE PEACE AND BEAUTIFUL MUSIC.
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john-hai
oyster lover
Registered: 05/11/11
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NICE!!!!
--------------------
3 rules i use to grow mushroom
#1 local material
#2 recycle when possible
#3 make it simple
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: john-hai]
#15276167 - 10/25/11 11:52 AM (7 months, 20 hours ago) |
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im glad your excited i am too
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LOVE PEACE AND BEAUTIFUL MUSIC.
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Mycelio
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Thanks again for running around and taking photos! You found pretty ones! Only the dark cap colors on pic #3 are kind of invalid, it should be one of the older specimens. Anyway, #1 and #2 show real beauties!
Now the big question remains unanswered. Are there any lookalike species in Canada, which we should rule out?
Carsten
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15276944 - 10/25/11 02:38 PM (7 months, 17 hours ago) |
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yes ill look into that right now!
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LOVE PEACE AND BEAUTIFUL MUSIC.
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Javadog
Continuing along
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Quote:
jimmyjame1 said:
cause you asked so nicely
here ya go
RAMPID! (LOL)
I am SO not a TI....the first and last photo seem to differ in the way
the gills meet the stipe.
The reference photos that Carsten pointed to seem to have a clearly
defined line around the stipe where the gills stop....but does that
last photo match?
Lost, but still very hopeful!
JD
(I agree that #1 looks good (this is an active thread!))
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15277300 - 10/25/11 04:05 PM (7 months, 15 hours ago) |
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i honestly think that its the age of these guys that are making them look that way , but im not sure myself
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LOVE PEACE AND BEAUTIFUL MUSIC.
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M8M
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Quote:
jimmyjame1 said:
after taking a few seconds to research an elm tree. i now can say for sure my fruit was from an elm tree.
You should recheck the ID on the tree species. The tree in the photo does not appear to be an Elm. The branches appear to be opposite arrangement whereas the Elm is alternate arrangement. The bark also does not appear correct for an Elm. The branches on an Elm also exit the trunk at approx. 30 degree angle upwards giving it's distintive "umbrella-like" shape.
M&M
Edited by M8M (10/25/11 04:15 PM)
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Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15277329 - 10/25/11 04:11 PM (7 months, 15 hours ago) |
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I thought about Pleurotus dryinus, but we can rule that one out, as the gills end at the stem, while the stem surface also won't match.
Just found a key to pale spored, gilled species on mushroomexpert, where I end up with H.u.
http://www.mushroomexpert.com/gilled_pale.html
Carsten
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Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: M8M]
#15277398 - 10/25/11 04:25 PM (7 months, 15 hours ago) |
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Box elder is another common host of H.u. Wouldn't that be a match?
Carsten
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Javadog
Continuing along
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15277546 - 10/25/11 04:48 PM (7 months, 15 hours ago) |
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That is a very detailed key. These are important to learn, to be able to work with...
Go team!
;0)
JD
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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cloudsaregathering
pasturbater
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15278106 - 10/25/11 06:43 PM (7 months, 13 hours ago) |
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Kinda hard to see but these are some Elm Oysters (I hope) that I grew awhile back...
--------------------
"the root of the problem has been isolated"
Trade List
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trout
Flyfisherman
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Cloudsaregathering you appear to have the same pleurotus strain that is the cause for confusion. If you look your gills are running down your stems H.u. gills stop at the stem abruptly.
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trout
Flyfisherman
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Cloudsaregathering you appear to have the same pleurotus strain that is the cause for confusion. If you look your gills are running down your stems H.u. gills stop at the stem abruptly.
--------------------
I need a good Hot Weather Oyster culture!!
Well things don't always look as they are and things can be misread and mistaken for what they realy are so don't read too much into what I say since I might be mistaken myself. And remember I rarely ever give a definate answer.
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cloudsaregathering
pasturbater
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: trout]
#15278312 - 10/25/11 07:18 PM (7 months, 12 hours ago) |
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Hmmmmm.... that sucks...
--------------------
"the root of the problem has been isolated"
Trade List
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jimmyjame1
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so you say #1 looks good? because thats the exact spot where i took that cluster im cloning
--------------------
LOVE PEACE AND BEAUTIFUL MUSIC.
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Javadog
Continuing along
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Well CG, those look like what I grew.
...but that ended up being IDed as Oysters...
Let's see what the consensus is.
Take care,
JD
P.S. This is what happens when you start a response but are then
called to dinner. LOL.
Yes, of the photos I thought that #1 had the sort of gills to cap margin
that seems to differentiate these species.
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
Edited by Javadog (10/25/11 07:42 PM)
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15290552 - 10/28/11 10:38 AM (6 months, 28 days ago) |
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H. ulmarius Aloha strains A and B slants received yesterday.
Cultures placed onto agar plates today!
--------------------
Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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HorizonSpawn
Gettin' my grow on :)
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15290605 - 10/28/11 10:52 AM (6 months, 28 days ago) |
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Woo-hoo!
--------------------
Please assume any and all prints exchanged are "WILD" in nature; and thus, should NOT be considered ASEPTIC...
NOTE: Please excuse my brevity, as it is a bitch 'n' a half and slow as hell to type on this here phone
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Javadog
Continuing along
Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 6,055
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Woo-hoo-HOO!
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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trout
Flyfisherman
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15291208 - 10/28/11 01:20 PM (6 months, 28 days ago) |
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So when we figure this out what are we going to do about it. I know the current "Elm Oyster" is a good strain for warm weather and large fruits and it should continue to be traded, but what should it be called Pleurotus Elm Oyster? And if the true H.u. is inferior in productivity and taste as I have read, is it worth growing? I want to see what we get and know for sure but in the end where is this going? What do you all think?
Trout
--------------------
I need a good Hot Weather Oyster culture!!
Well things don't always look as they are and things can be misread and mistaken for what they realy are so don't read too much into what I say since I might be mistaken myself. And remember I rarely ever give a definate answer.
|
Javadog
Continuing along
Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 6,055
Loc: USA
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: trout]
#15291774 - 10/28/11 03:34 PM (6 months, 28 days ago) |
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Hey trout,
For my part, I love growing and eating.
I will grow everything that I can get my hands on and will eat whatever
is edible. ....this being said, I am sure that there will be species that
I will enjoy growing more than I enjoy eating. I expect that in time,
as I get more skill at what I am doing, then I might focus on growing
just the species that I like to eat, or know I can sell, etc, while
passing by those species that I enjoy eating less.
Sense?
JD
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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Terry M
Stranger in a Strange Land
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: trout]
#15291850 - 10/28/11 03:52 PM (6 months, 28 days ago) |
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I agree, trout. We don't know what we have, and we don't know if "true" H. ulmarius is any better.
I'd like to characterize everything labeled Hypsizygus ulmarius to find out what it is. My current "H. ulmarius" came from the company "The Mushroom Patch." I don't know if this is the same as is traded here. I've got a wedge of mine in a grain jar now. Maybe I should get some standard issue "Shroomery H. ulmarius" growing as well.
I'm going to try to classify these and the Alohas. Mycologists like Bulliard and Peck and Murrill were staring at mushroom spores through microscopes before any of us were born. Many names and classifications have changed over the years. But we won't be discovering any new species. I for one would like to know what I'm growing!
--------------------
Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
Edited by Terry M (10/29/11 02:20 PM)
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solarity
mm... my favourite food
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15291913 - 10/28/11 04:08 PM (6 months, 28 days ago) |
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Now I am really confused, when Stamets was raving about the taste and quality of H.Ulm in GGMM do you think he was talking about a different mushroom?
I love H.Tess and was acquired a (non shroomery) H.Ulm strain hoping for something as good but on straw.
--------------------
Thinking about Growing Gourmet for a living? See if you can afford it!
Mmmm! Goddamn, Jimmie! This is some serious gourmet shit! Usually, me and Vince would be happy with some plain ole Agaricus right, but he springs this serious GOURMET shit on us!
TRADE Looking for a Volvariella Volvacea culture and a commercial pink culture of known origin. Have strong edible strains to trade.
Edited by solarity (10/28/11 04:09 PM)
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HorizonSpawn
Gettin' my grow on :)
Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 1,738
Loc: Myco-Tek.org
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Quote:
solarity said:
Now I am really confused, when Stamets was raving about the taste and quality of H.Ulm in GGMM do you think he was talking about a different mushroom?
I love H.Tess and was acquired a (non shroomery) H.Ulm strain hoping for something as good but on straw.
This is what I want to know... Because whatever Stamets had/has appears to be beneficial to vegetable crops; which is my #1 priority... It being a delicious edible, a secondary beneficial delight
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Please assume any and all prints exchanged are "WILD" in nature; and thus, should NOT be considered ASEPTIC...
NOTE: Please excuse my brevity, as it is a bitch 'n' a half and slow as hell to type on this here phone
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NSF
Eager to learn
Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 464
Last seen: 1 day, 16 hours
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I don't see how a tree loving species is going to be beneficial to vegetable crops. I just mean from a logistics point if view. Unless you inoculate elm mulch and spread it over the vegetables.
I think it's good for us to try and clear up what's what. It seems like there is confusion stretching back decades. We might just have to settle for some new identifiers to distinguish what we've got. It's very easy to muddle species. I've received the wrong thing before, i've even labelled something wrong and sent it out, realising this after i'd posted it. I did pass on the correction though.
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Javadog
Continuing along
Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 6,055
Loc: USA
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: NSF]
#15293277 - 10/28/11 09:34 PM (6 months, 28 days ago) |
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I sent someone something I thought was an edible....they got massive
flushes of F+. They ended up using one particularly beautiful shot as
their avatar for a while. It was all good in the end, but embarrassing.
JD
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Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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HorizonSpawn
Gettin' my grow on :)
Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 1,738
Loc: Myco-Tek.org
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: NSF]
#15293280 - 10/28/11 09:35 PM (6 months, 28 days ago) |
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Beats the hell outta me
"Give your Garden a "HUG": The Hypsizygus ulmarius Garden Patch™ ★★
A great ally for most garden vegetables, this aggressive Garden Oyster mushroom unlocks nutrients from straw, sawdust, and organic debris, feeding the roots of underlying plants. Ideal for over-wintering and mulching, or early Spring planting where straw is overlaid, the HUG kit is a natural way to recycle nutrients and grow gourmet mushrooms at the same time."
Pulled it off of Stamets' site: HERE
I'm doing this very thing with Stropharia rugosso-annulata, right now
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Please assume any and all prints exchanged are "WILD" in nature; and thus, should NOT be considered ASEPTIC...
NOTE: Please excuse my brevity, as it is a bitch 'n' a half and slow as hell to type on this here phone
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HorizonSpawn
Gettin' my grow on :)
Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 1,738
Loc: Myco-Tek.org
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15293298 - 10/28/11 09:40 PM (6 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Javadog said:
I sent someone something I thought was an edible....they got massive
flushes of F+. They ended up using one particularly beautiful shot as
their avatar for a while. It was all good in the end, but embarrassing.
JD
Oh crap! Could you just imagine how THAT dinner party turned out?! That would NOT be fun for the unexpected.
--------------------
Please assume any and all prints exchanged are "WILD" in nature; and thus, should NOT be considered ASEPTIC...
NOTE: Please excuse my brevity, as it is a bitch 'n' a half and slow as hell to type on this here phone
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Terry M
Stranger in a Strange Land
Registered: 06/18/10
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The culture Stamets uses is DAOM #189249, maintained by the Canadian Collection of Fungal Cultures (CCFC). I'm onto it.
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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HorizonSpawn
Gettin' my grow on :)
Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 1,738
Loc: Myco-Tek.org
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15294335 - 10/29/11 07:12 AM (6 months, 28 days ago) |
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Thanks Terry!
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Please assume any and all prints exchanged are "WILD" in nature; and thus, should NOT be considered ASEPTIC...
NOTE: Please excuse my brevity, as it is a bitch 'n' a half and slow as hell to type on this here phone
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jimmyjame1
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this thread is still going! and my agar work seems to be working too.
ill keep you posted
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LOVE PEACE AND BEAUTIFUL MUSIC.
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Mycelio
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Hi Guys,
just took a look on the spores of my 'H.u.'. Unfortunately I only had a children microscope with max. 400x (40x objective, 10x ocular) magnification. It was dusty as hell, there was only a lid and no glass slide, so I scratched a few particles off the gills of an old, dried mushroom on a piece of clear plastic, put in a hair to compare size with, covered and tried my luck.
Well... 400x may not allow an exact measurement and some kind of stain would have been nice, as the spores are transparent, but I did see something. There were no spherical spores at all, but tons of cylindrical ones, a little less than 10µ in length, roughly estimated.
Quote:
trout said:
So when we figure this out what are we going to do about it. I know the current "Elm Oyster" is a good strain for warm weather and large fruits and it should continue to be traded, but what should it be called Pleurotus Elm Oyster? ...
Mushroom cultivation is an area full of misunderstandings and misinterpretations, so each busted myth is a step forward in my eyes. I will keep calling it white oyster, pale oyster or Pleurotus spec.
Pleurotus 'H.u.' might be an option too.
Carsten
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15295597 - 10/29/11 12:50 PM (6 months, 27 days ago) |
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i looked at my spore print under a microscope ( REALLY CHEAP ONE )
they appear to have ROUND spores ! ill keep you posted
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LOVE PEACE AND BEAUTIFUL MUSIC.
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Terry M
Stranger in a Strange Land
Registered: 06/18/10
Posts: 800
Loc: Rhode Island
Last seen: 1 hour, 13 minutes
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I am see more of the decurrent/non-decurrent gill dichotomy.
In this link on MushroomExpert.com, it says of H. ulmarius:
Quote:
Gills: Attached to the stem and not running down it; close or nearly distant; whitish, becoming cream.
But in Stamets' GGMM it says,
Quote:
Gills decurrent, close, often running down the stem.
I have an old Dover edition of Charles McIlvaine's "One Thousand American Fungi," first edition, originally published in 1900. I bought this many years ago when I first tried to collect and identify mushrooms. The book was thick and cheap! Here's what is says about Pleurotus ulmarius Bull:
Quote:
Gills horizontal, emarginate or rounded behind, slightly adnexed, broad (broader in the middle), somewhat crowded. whitish.
More evidence for Stamets' H. ulmarius being some kind of Pleurotus. So McIlvaine put it in this genus, as did Bulliard. This is one confusing 'shroom! I can't wait to get the culture from CCFC.
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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solarity
mm... my favourite food
Registered: 03/31/09
Posts: 345
Loc: UK
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15299290 - 10/30/11 11:16 AM (6 months, 26 days ago) |
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Just to confuse this a bit more check out Rogers on H Tess -
Quote:
"Formerly known as Pleurotus ulmarius,"
--------------------
Thinking about Growing Gourmet for a living? See if you can afford it!
Mmmm! Goddamn, Jimmie! This is some serious gourmet shit! Usually, me and Vince would be happy with some plain ole Agaricus right, but he springs this serious GOURMET shit on us!
TRADE Looking for a Volvariella Volvacea culture and a commercial pink culture of known origin. Have strong edible strains to trade.
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Mycelio
Stranger
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Sure, H. tessulatus and H. ulmarius both have been in the genus Pleurotus previously and they are often confused. Some mycologists still believe they are one species.
I just checked the current official state at Index Fungorum.
http://www.speciesfungorum.org/Names/GSDSpecies.asp?RecordID=287202
http://www.speciesfungorum.org/Names/GSDSpecies.asp?RecordID=106194
Now we also know that H. tessulatus is the correct spelling.
Carsten
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Jef
Out-of-work Sex Slave
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Re: Don't get all P.O.ed about "Elm Oysters" [Re: Mycelio]
#15324806 - 11/04/11 10:25 PM (6 months, 21 days ago) |
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While escaping out a basement window, from my confinement as a sex slave, the police saw me and thought I was breaking in. I said "Just look! the window's unlocked!" But, tired of me, my old flame had locked the window and quietly left the house. So after a spell both naked and in jail, I am released now and back in a different home that has internet. People have often remarked that I should be put in a home ...and now, here I am!
I have the same decurrent strain fruiting right now in the unheated workshop through sub zero nights. I guess I could get a spore print and send it where it would help. Whoever wants it PM me.
I have no opinion of what it is but it has been my best edible strain from the word go. I have grown and fruited it from grain spawn, sawdust blocks and in my garden beds with the addition of maple shavings. Unlike all the oysters I've tried, it didn't like coffee grounds. I inoculated garden soil with spawn and those vegetables were much healthier and more drought-tolerant than those I didn't infect. I have often used really old spawn (I never seem to use any spawn on time) and still got good results.
I'm not aware of any (other?) pleurotus ostreatus complex species that fruit well from the ground on diffuse substrates like wood shavings or cardboard.
Even if it is a P.O. strain it is still a very special strain....and I like it!
Hello Carsten, glad to see your good, solid reasoning still helps to sort out even the best of messes.
Jef
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I am my own lab rat.
“Young lady!” cried Mr. Grout, very much appalled. “It ill becomes a young person of no consequence, such as yourself, to go about slandering great people in all the dignity of their property!”
- Mrs. Mabb, The Ladies of Grace Adieu, by Susanna Clarke
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Mycelio
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Re: Don't get all P.O.ed about "Elm Oysters" [Re: Jef]
#15326629 - 11/05/11 11:30 AM (6 months, 20 days ago) |
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Hey Jef,
good to know that you finally managed to escape from your dungeon, I often missed you humour!
You are correct that this white oyster does exceptionally well in soil, though all members of the P. ostreatus complex are able to grow into soil and catch yummy nematodes for some extra nitrogen. This one even performs fine on compost. Due to the high spore load it often contaminates and takes over my agaricus cultures on compost... 
Anyway, this species seems to combine traits of P. ostreatus and P. eryngii, which - according to latest DNA studies - are very close relatives, closer than P. ostreatus and P. pulmonarius.
Cheers, Carsten
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Don't get all P.O.ed about "Elm Oysters" [Re: Mycelio]
#15341404 - 11/08/11 06:18 PM (6 months, 17 days ago) |
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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15341363
look what i had to do to get a TE look at these picture of my oysters. LOL
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LOVE PEACE AND BEAUTIFUL MUSIC.
Edited by jimmyjame1 (11/08/11 06:19 PM)
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Terry M
Stranger in a Strange Land
Registered: 06/18/10
Posts: 800
Loc: Rhode Island
Last seen: 1 hour, 13 minutes
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: trout]
#15343419 - 11/09/11 05:23 AM (6 months, 17 days ago) |
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Trout, thank you for your generous offer, but it appears that I'll shortly be owning my own classic Zeiss trinocular microscope, with 100x oil immersion objective. I'm giving myself a crash course in mushrooom microscopy by studying Largent et al.'s "How to Identify Mushrooms to Genus III: Microscopic Features." When I'm all set up and have some spores, I'll be posting lots of pictures!
BTW, I checked on ordering DAOM #189249 from Carolyn Babcock, curator at the CCFC. I was put off by "Please note that requests from outside Canada may require an Import Permit. I will require a full mailing address of your research organization."
I am in the US. It is $75 from them, which I am happy to pay. But I don't want to deal with any Import Permit paperwork. As for my "research organization," I have successfully used my wife's college, where she is a professor, to order from the Fungal Genetics Stock Center. I just omitted her academic department, which is Art and Art History.
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 37,004
Loc: USA Mountain Northwest
Last seen: 2 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: Don't get all P.O.ed about "Elm Oysters" [Re: Jef]
#15343816 - 11/09/11 08:02 AM (6 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Jef said:
While escaping out a basement window, from my confinement as a sex slave
Quote:
Jef said:
But, tired of me, my old flame had locked the window and quietly left the house.
Obviously, she's in the market for a new sex slave. She may feel free to PM me.
RR
--------------------
www.mushroomvideos.com
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
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Mycelio
Stranger
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Posts: 1,429
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Re: Don't get all P.O.ed about "Elm Oysters" [Re: jimmyjame1]
#15343838 - 11/09/11 08:09 AM (6 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
jimmyjame1 said:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15341363
look what i had to do to get a TE look at these picture of my oysters. LOL
LOL
I think we can safely change his diagnosis to H. ulmarius, as you found large fruitbodies, not appearing in big groups.
Carsten
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Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15343846 - 11/09/11 08:12 AM (6 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Terry M said:
Trout, thank you for your generous offer, but it appears that I'll shortly be owning my own classic Zeiss trinocular microscope, with 100x oil immersion objective. I'm giving myself a crash course in mushrooom microscopy by studying Largent et al.'s "How to Identify Mushrooms to Genus III: Microscopic Features." When I'm all set up and have some spores, I'll be posting lots of pictures!
BTW, I checked on ordering DAOM #189249 from Carolyn Babcock, curator at the CCFC. I was put off by "Please note that requests from outside Canada may require an Import Permit. I will require a full mailing address of your research organization."
I am in the US. It is $75 from them, which I am happy to pay. But I don't want to deal with any Import Permit paperwork. As for my "research organization," I have successfully used my wife's college, where she is a professor, to order from the Fungal Genetics Stock Center. I just omitted her academic department, which is Art and Art History.
Wow, that is good news. Perhaps a canadian member might help avoiding import trouble?
Carsten
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
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Posts: 37,004
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15343958 - 11/09/11 08:43 AM (6 months, 16 days ago) |
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Spore size and shape notwithstanding, I will attest that H ulmarius and P ostreatus spores both make me sick as hell. I have no other allergies to any other mushroom spores at all, but can't grow any more mushrooms in the 'oyster family', no matter what. It only takes a few seconds of exposure to either species(genera if it's still open to debate) to get a high fever, cough, sore throat, headache from hell, etc.
That said, I still like P ostreatus as a meal, especially with Italian food such as pizza and spaghetti, but elm oysters suck. The taste and texture just isn't the same. 
RR
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Jef
Out-of-work Sex Slave
Registered: 12/02/08
Posts: 739
Loc: near Duncan, BC
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Re: Don't get all P.O.ed about "Elm Oysters" [Re: RogerRabbit]
#15344344 - 11/09/11 10:29 AM (6 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
Jef said:
While escaping out a basement window, from my confinement as a sex slave
Quote:
Jef said:
But, tired of me, my old flame had locked the window and quietly left the house.
Obviously, she's in the market for a new sex slave. She may feel free to PM me.
RR
If I remember rightly, Mrs. Rabbit is Eastern European. I'm sure the poison would kill you before your first orgasm.
--------------------
I am my own lab rat.
“Young lady!” cried Mr. Grout, very much appalled. “It ill becomes a young person of no consequence, such as yourself, to go about slandering great people in all the dignity of their property!”
- Mrs. Mabb, The Ladies of Grace Adieu, by Susanna Clarke
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Mycelio
Stranger
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Spore size and shape notwithstanding, I will attest that H ulmarius and P ostreatus spores both make me sick as hell. I have no other allergies to any other mushroom spores at all, but can't grow any more mushrooms in the 'oyster family', no matter what. It only takes a few seconds of exposure to either species(genera if it's still open to debate) to get a high fever, cough, sore throat, headache from hell, etc.
That said, I still like P ostreatus as a meal, especially with Italian food such as pizza and spaghetti, but elm oysters suck. The taste and texture just isn't the same.
RR
This sounds like you developed an allergic reaction against proteines on the surface of the spores of Pleurotus ostreatus and closely related species. If you had two separate allergies (one against P. ostreatus and the other against H. ulmarius (assuming the commonly cultivated H.u. would really be H.u.), H. tessulatus should also affect you, which seems not to be the case.
I'm glad you can still eat oysters cooked!
Carsten
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Terry M
Stranger in a Strange Land
Registered: 06/18/10
Posts: 800
Loc: Rhode Island
Last seen: 1 hour, 13 minutes
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15365030 - 11/13/11 01:17 PM (6 months, 12 days ago) |
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That's kind of what I was thinking, Carsten. RR's immune system may be better at Pleurotus taxonomy than all the mycologists in the world!
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15365779 - 11/13/11 04:05 PM (6 months, 12 days ago) |
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i think its time that RR takes some Reishi. i hear it helps with allergies and other immune system issues.
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LOVE PEACE AND BEAUTIFUL MUSIC.
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trout
Flyfisherman
Registered: 12/11/07
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LOL
RR's allergy is the proof we need that we have very cool strain of Pleurotus not H.u. Seriously I agree. It is just funny!
Trout
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I need a good Hot Weather Oyster culture!!
Well things don't always look as they are and things can be misread and mistaken for what they realy are so don't read too much into what I say since I might be mistaken myself. And remember I rarely ever give a definate answer.
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Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: trout]
#15373368 - 11/15/11 07:36 AM (6 months, 10 days ago) |
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I'm still fascinated by the obvious fact that our immune system is able to target molecules, which are special for the P. ostreatus complex and keep being cool about all other spores.
Reishi vs. allergies may be the next myth we should look into...
Carsten
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15373387 - 11/15/11 07:42 AM (6 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Reishi vs. allergies may be the next myth we should look into...
Myth is correct. I consume reishi daily.
I have no allergies of any kind other than the oyster complex of mushroom spores as I refer to them.
On second thought, truth be known, there actually is this problem with one of my ex-wives. . . 
RR
--------------------
www.mushroomvideos.com
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
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jimmyjame1
Lover
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do you notice any effects from it?
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LOVE PEACE AND BEAUTIFUL MUSIC.
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Jef
Out-of-work Sex Slave
Registered: 12/02/08
Posts: 739
Loc: near Duncan, BC
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If you take it long enough your tits sag, and your hair goes gray. 
Worked for me!
--------------------
I am my own lab rat.
“Young lady!” cried Mr. Grout, very much appalled. “It ill becomes a young person of no consequence, such as yourself, to go about slandering great people in all the dignity of their property!”
- Mrs. Mabb, The Ladies of Grace Adieu, by Susanna Clarke
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Javadog
Continuing along
Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 6,055
Loc: USA
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Jef]
#15383680 - 11/17/11 10:23 AM (6 months, 8 days ago) |
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Hey,
Check out Ralphsters H. ulmaris page:
http://www.ralphstersspores.com/USA/product_info.php?cPath=10&products_id=365
Isn't this the same not-H.u. that I started this thread to display?
I would really like an Elm Oyster that is actually an Elm Oyster.
Take care,
JD
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15383712 - 11/17/11 10:31 AM (6 months, 8 days ago) |
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i have a beautiful large spore print that i took from a wild elm oyster.
i imagine you have the ability to clean it up on agar and grow it.
the print is yours if you want it.
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LOVE PEACE AND BEAUTIFUL MUSIC.
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Javadog
Continuing along
Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 6,055
Loc: USA
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 'ed
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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Terry M
Stranger in a Strange Land
Registered: 06/18/10
Posts: 800
Loc: Rhode Island
Last seen: 1 hour, 13 minutes
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15384303 - 11/17/11 12:51 PM (6 months, 8 days ago) |
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Ralph sent me two cultures. I'm inoculating plates from them tomorrow. I've got a Mushroom Patch strain I bought a while ago of nominally H. ulmarius growing nicely in a fruiting bag, side by side with H. tessulatus for comparison. Aloha strain B will be going from grain jar to sawdust/wood chip bag tomorrow. Aloha strain A is lagging behind a bit. Tomorrow I also start growing out a plate of "Official Generic Shroomery" H. ulmarius, which EvilMushroom kindly supplied.
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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Javadog
Continuing along
Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 6,055
Loc: USA
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15384328 - 11/17/11 12:55 PM (6 months, 8 days ago) |
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Did you see the photo on Ralphsters of the H ulmaris they are selling?
Did it not look like the "Official Generic Shroomery" that I posted
to start this thread?
Interesting.
I look forward to your results.
JD
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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Terry M
Stranger in a Strange Land
Registered: 06/18/10
Posts: 800
Loc: Rhode Island
Last seen: 1 hour, 13 minutes
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15384570 - 11/17/11 01:37 PM (6 months, 8 days ago) |
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A simple test I can do right away is seeing which strain pairs are genetically compatible on agar. Is their a buffer zone between two growing strains, or do they intermix?
Maybe I will start this tomorrow. I currently have 4 strains in agar culture, so a pairwise combination of all of them would be 4x3=12 comparisons. Heck, I use 3 section plates, so this would only require 4 plates!
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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HorizonSpawn
Gettin' my grow on :)
Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 1,738
Loc: Myco-Tek.org
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15386857 - 11/17/11 11:07 PM (6 months, 8 days ago) |
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--------------------
Please assume any and all prints exchanged are "WILD" in nature; and thus, should NOT be considered ASEPTIC...
NOTE: Please excuse my brevity, as it is a bitch 'n' a half and slow as hell to type on this here phone
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Terry M
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I've got some early results of my genetic compatibility test. I just used Aloha A, not B, to keep down the number of combinations. I'm also doing Aloha A against B to make sure they are compatible.
The cultures being tested are:
Shroomery generic -- kindly suppled by EvilMushroom666
Ralph plate (syringe also supplied which is still growing out)
The Mushroom Patch -- I had this culture already
Aloha A
First of all, this test is taking a while because Aloha strains are slower growers on agar than the rest, which are pretty fast. This is a tip-off already. The agar plates (MEA) were inoculated on 11/18, making them now 5 days old.
I can definitely conclude that the Shroomery generic, kindly supplied by EvilMushroom666, is not genetically compatible with Aloha A, and therefore not the same species. A very clear "zone of aversion" appeared between the two cultures, over which neither mycelia crossed.
The other species tested with Aloha A have not produced clear results yet. The cultures haven't "met" yet. However most of the other cultures have, and and the mycelia mixed without any zone of aversion.
The lack of a zone of aversion does not prove they are the same species. To test for this (I'm reasonably sure*) one must observe the hyphae of the two mixed mycelia and see if there are clamp connections between them. I just got a microscope, and tried this. They cannot, of course, be observer from the top in a closed plate because the petri dish top prevents the objectives from getting close enough. So I tried the bottom, through the agar. But again, couldn't get it close enough to focus on the agar to surface where the mycelia are.
When this part of the experiment is over, I can take the petri dish covers off and look for clamp connections.
*Anderson, N. A., Wang, S. S., and Schwandt, J.W., "The Pleurotus ostreatus-sapidus Species Complex," Mycologia, Vol. 65, No. 1 (Jan. - Feb., 1973), pp. 28-35.
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
Edited by Terry M (11/23/11 05:22 AM)
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15411834 - 11/23/11 05:48 AM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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great work Terry
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Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15411965 - 11/23/11 06:55 AM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Hi Terry,
the incompatibility may not prove that much. Aversion can be a hint for two species, but not all strains within one species have to be compatible, especially as yours are all dikaryotic.
As you say, a lacking zone of inhibition is also no hard proof of different species. I had contaminations by Pleurotus 'H.u.' spores, taking over Agaricus and Cordyceps cultures without any visible sign.
Clamp connection will be a proof only if you pair monokaryotic mycelia from single spore isolates, like in the cited document. All your samples should be dikaryotic, already having clamp connections.
Anyway, it is still very interesting to see how they react.
Slower growth should be a hint for Hypsizygus, but again no hard proof.
Whenever you use spawn to inoculate something, just check the smell of the empty spawn jars. I found the odor to be quite different between Hypsizygus and Pleurotus species.
Cheers, Carsten
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15412029 - 11/23/11 07:23 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mycelio said:
Clamp connection will be a proof only if you pair monokaryotic mycelia from single spore isolates, like in the cited document. All your samples should be dikaryotic, already having clamp connections.
I realize that there will be lots of clamp connections. But I'm planning to move the slide and trace two clamped hyphae back closer to their roots, where they will be in one culture, the other culture, or both cultures.
Edited by Terry M (11/23/11 07:25 AM)
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15412094 - 11/23/11 07:49 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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I meant "plate" and not "slide." I'm used to thinking about slides on a microscope stage, not plates!
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Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15412122 - 11/23/11 07:58 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Alright, now I get it. You will be looking for traces of anastomosis in your plates. I hope the situation in there is not too chaotic and you can spot them!
Carsten
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Javadog
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15412173 - 11/23/11 08:18 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Hey Terry,
Good stuff.
First:
"First of all, this test is taking a while because Aloha strains are slower growers on agar than the rest, which are pretty fast. This is a tip-off already."
I understand. I have found Pleurotis to be a relatively colonizer,
and suppose the H. ulmaris is slower.
Then:
"However most of the other cultures have, and and the mycelia mixed without any zone of aversion."
So, the early results are that the Aloha subject is truly H. u. whereas
the other three species are the same, and are not H. u.
Did I follow you?
Take care,
JD
--------------------
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Myco-tek.org
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15412275 - 11/23/11 08:51 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Javadog said:
Hey Terry,
Good stuff.
First:
"First of all, this test is taking a while because Aloha strains are slower growers on agar than the rest, which are pretty fast. This is a tip-off already."
I understand. I have found Pleurotis to be a relatively colonizer,
and suppose the H. ulmaris is slower.
Then:
"However most of the other cultures have, and and the mycelia mixed without any zone of aversion."
So, the early results are that the Aloha subject is truly H. u. whereas
the other three species are the same, and are not H. u.
Did I follow you?
Take care,
JD
Yes. But this is just an early result, and will need more evidence. Not proof by any means, but this observation is consistent with this. Hopefully, I will get some genetic evidence from examining the clamp connections under a microscope.
However in biology, some people believe that genetics can establish a difference in species. [If they can interbreed, and if so, whether or not the offspring are fertile. The situation is more complicated with mushrooms!] Others believe that morphological comparison defines a species. I'll do morphological comparison as well, once I have fruit bodies to examine and compare with descriptions in the literature.
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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Javadog
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15412280 - 11/23/11 08:53 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Terry M said:
Quote:
Javadog said:
Hey Terry,
Good stuff.
First:
"First of all, this test is taking a while because Aloha strains are slower growers on agar than the rest, which are pretty fast. This is a tip-off already."
I understand. I have found Pleurotis to be a relatively colonizer,
and suppose the H. ulmaris is slower.
Then:
"However most of the other cultures have, and and the mycelia mixed without any zone of aversion."
So, the early results are that the Aloha subject is truly H. u. whereas
the other three species are the same, and are not H. u.
Did I follow you?
Take care,
JD
Yes. But this is just an early result, and will need more evidence. Not proof by any means, but this observation is consistent with this. Hopefully, I will get some genetic evidence from examining the clamp connections under a microscope.
However in biology, some people believe that genetics can establish a difference in species. [If they can interbreed, and if so, whether or not the offspring are fertile. The situation is more complicated with mushrooms!] Others believe that morphological comparison defines a species. I'll do morphological comparison as well, once I have fruit bodies to examine and compare with descriptions in the literature.
Right. A prime indicator will be whether the gills are decurrent.
Good luck!
JD
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15414895 - 11/23/11 07:36 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Here are the genetic compatibility test results.
Nothing tested was compatible wilh Aloha A. Everything else was compatible with each other. Also, Aloha A is compatible with Aloha B. But we can't conclude that Aloha B will behave just like Aloa A for compatibility, because we can't assume commutativity.
To be added to this test are a Ralph strain in a syringe, which I am growing out now. And Out-Grow is sending me a culture as well. I will add these to the matrix once I've done the testing. And I'm growing out all 7 of these cultures for morphological analysis.
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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EvilMushroom666
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15414918 - 11/23/11 07:41 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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I am more then willing to measure and photograph any spore samples to help
out when the time comes .
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Javadog
Continuing along
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Right on guys. Thanks for keeping the ball rolling.
I was reading through GGMM this evening, and I confirmed
that that tome describes H. ulmaris as having decurrent gills.
In that same book, H. tessulatus has a gill-stipe connection that
looks much more like what we have been expecting.
I am not sure that I will even look as the two Hypsizygus species
in that book. The nomenclature will make your head swim. Not only
is there the general confusion about H. u. but the names seem to
have been traded about, going from one genus to another.
I have a print of what we think is H. u. from JJ and have already
put some on agar. I should have a fruits to show for it before Christmas.
Take care,
JD
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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HorizonSpawn
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15415104 - 11/23/11 08:26 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Terry, awesome work!... The Myco-community is in your debt
--------------------
Please assume any and all prints exchanged are "WILD" in nature; and thus, should NOT be considered ASEPTIC...
NOTE: Please excuse my brevity, as it is a bitch 'n' a half and slow as hell to type on this here phone
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Terry M
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I've got the compatibility results for the 4 strains tested so far. "+" means compatible, and "—" means not compatible.
Aloha A Ralph P Shroom MP
Aloha A
Ralph P —
Shroom — +
MP — + +
I'll be getting a culture from Out-Grow, and have just finished growing out a syringe culture from Ralph, which may or may not be the same. I will add these two to the compatibility matrix when I've tested them.
I'll try to get some photographs of these before I open them and examine them with the microscope. I'll probably only have one day to do each plate, as they'll certainly get contaminated once I take the covers off. I want phase contrast to be an option for viewing them, so I need to wait until I've learned how to do phase contrast microscopy! Meanwhile, the plates are in the fridge.
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
Edited by Terry M (11/24/11 05:40 AM)
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15416411 - 11/24/11 06:12 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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I just took some plate photos.
Note the "zone of aversion" set up between incompatible strains.
Edited by Terry M (11/24/11 06:17 AM)
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Javadog
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15416759 - 11/24/11 08:34 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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"zone of aversion" Yes, those photos do tell the tale, and well.
Great work!
JD
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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Javadog
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15416797 - 11/24/11 08:44 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Javadog said:
Check out Ralphsters H. ulmaris page:
http://www.ralphstersspores.com/USA/product_info.php?cPath=10&products_id=365
Isn't this the same not-H.u. that I started this thread to display?
P.S. I just wondered....did anyone check this link? You can see on
the stipes that Ralph's H.u. has the decurrent gills.
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15416818 - 11/24/11 08:51 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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>.< oh no!
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LOVE PEACE AND BEAUTIFUL MUSIC.
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15416942 - 11/24/11 09:28 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Javadog said:
"zone of aversion"
I actually got that term from a mycology paper!
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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CH HELL
Brain Sturgeon
Registered: 10/02/08
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15417092 - 11/24/11 10:14 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Terry M said:
I just took some plate photos.
Note the "zone of aversion" set up between incompatible strains.
I am liking the idea here Terry. This "zone of aversion" you are talking about is better to be seen from the bottom of a petri dish when the plates are grown out more. I wouldn't use this as a definitive ID because this zone happens often with same strains it just show they are not from the same 'area' but still could be the same species.
I can help with microscopy or even fruiting these if you want. I already have the cultures(except I only have one Aloha which could be A or B).
Keep it up and Happy Thanksgiving!
CH
--------------------
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: CH HELL]
#15417158 - 11/24/11 10:38 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
CH HELL said:
I wouldn't use this as a definitive ID because this zone happens often with same strains it just show they are not from the same 'area' but still could be the same species.
Yes. Here is a pretty cool table from the paper by N. A. Anderson, S. S. Wang, and J. W.Schwandt, 1973. "The Pleurotus Ostreatus-Sapidus Species Complex," Mycologia 65: 28-35.
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15427019 - 11/26/11 03:49 PM (5 months, 30 days ago) |
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Cool! So, even if not forming a zone of aversion can be meaningless (like I have seen between Pleurotus 'H.u.' and Agaricus mycelium), we clearly have two compatibility groups, one made of Aloha A and B while the other consists of the rest, where at least one is our Pleurotus 'H.u.'. This should indicate having either two incompatible oyster strains or different species.
Now adding the much slower growth of the Aloha group and - if I see this correctly - the slightly different growth pattern between the groups, but identical within each group, which all matches my observations of a real H.u. and the white oyster, I'm leaning towards two species, where the Aloha strains might be the real deal.
But then BuckeyeOysters' strain would neither be Aloha A nor B.
This will stay interesting for quite a while...
Terry, when you are done with those dishes, can you take a needle, scratch the mycelium of one group in each plate and compare the smell?
Just in case you didn't dispose of the dishes already...
Carsten
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15435348 - 11/28/11 12:03 PM (5 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mycelio said:
But then BuckeyeOysters' strain would neither be Aloha A nor B.
I don't understand. BuckeyeOysters said he got his from Aloha.
UPDATE:
I just looked at the mycelium under the microscope. They're damn thin! Even at 1000x, they are still pretty thin. And a clamp connection is small compared to a mycelium diameter. I don't know how micrographs showing clamp connections are done. Is there a mushroom species with really thick mycellium, the mycological equivalent of Drosophila genes?
It wouldn't have worked anyway, because the tangle of mycelia is too disorganized. No way to trace any back.
So I think that there will be two indisputable tests for this project: macroscopic and microscopic.
1. Hypsizygus gills are adnexed or adnate. Oysters are decurrent (is this true for all Pleurotus?).
2. Hypsizygus spores are globose or subglobose. Oysters spores are cylindrical.
--------------------
Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
Edited by Terry M (11/28/11 03:27 PM)
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solarity
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15435731 - 11/28/11 01:24 PM (5 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Terry M said:
I don't understand. BuckeyeOysters said he got his from Aloha.
Actually he said
Quote:
Yes it is aloha strain that I got on a trade. Not sure which specific one though.
So it may be Shroomery Pl.Ulm after all.
I have what I strongly believe to be Elm A on a couple of experimental straw logs about to go into the FC next day or so. Pics if fruits!
--------------------
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Jef
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Quote:
I don't know how micrographs showing clamp connections are done
All the clamp connection photos I have seen have been electron micrographs. That is not to say that there are no optical scopes that could do it, but maybe they are very powerful and few. The limitation with optical scopes tends to be supplying enough light to see a very small area without cooking it thoroughly out of existence.
Perhaps I will add even more mud in the soup. My understanding is that from multispore culture, usually anyway, mycelium from two different germinated spores have to meet and form clamp connections to make a genetically homogeneous fruitable mycelial mass. This can be most easily isolated in a fruit body.
Two spores from the same parent mushroom may do this, but not necessarily any two spores. So it would seem more than possible that two different spores from the same mushroom might, for reasons of incompatibility, form zones of aversion.
Mainly, people hereabouts trade cultures in mycelial form, but it also seems very possible that, understanding the genetic variabilities (or not), people here might also have started new cultures from spore, and (incorrectly) considered them the same strain as the parent strain. A multispore culture like this could have literally dozens of different mycelia derived from dozens of spores. Each of these many combined mycelia would have an opportunity to "object" to any strain that is met, making a zone of aversion. These cultures are also likely to be "making the rounds".
More about all this here.
What I'm saying, I guess, is without elaborate DNA tests, and the knowledge to interpret them, we can learn very little from mycelial cultures, but we could still do them for fun!
I think that Terry M is right on the money when he suggests that fruit bodies and spores are the areas for focus.
I am very much in favour of having all of this stuff sorted out, and, once done having it put "on deposit" at another culture bank, (and perhaps bemushroomed).
I am certainly not the foremost here in my knowledge, but I know enough to know when I am out of my depth... and I am.
Jeff
Edited by Jef (11/28/11 04:07 PM)
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Javadog
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Jef]
#15436414 - 11/28/11 04:07 PM (5 months, 28 days ago) |
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Very interesting. Thank you for chiming in Jef.
JD
--------------------
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Jef]
#15436871 - 11/28/11 05:42 PM (5 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Jef said:
All the clamp connection photos I have seen have been electron micrographs.
Aha! I suspected so. I used to operate an electron microscope, and an interesting property is that you get huge depth of field. And in the clamp connection photos I've seen, everything is in focus.
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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NSF
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15437029 - 11/28/11 06:10 PM (5 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Terry M said:
I just looked at the mycelium under the microscope. They're damn thin! Even at 1000x, they are still pretty thin.
I was just having a look on ebay (.com.au because I'm aussie) at microscopes, but I know absolutely nothing about them.
What should I be looking for? Is oil immersion required for 1000x magnification? Do I need to go beyond 1000x? How cheap is too cheap?
Would something like this be suitable?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/330648699568?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
What sort of price is suitable for something with a camera so you can share observations?
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NSF
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Jef]
#15437124 - 11/28/11 06:26 PM (5 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Jef said:
Perhaps I will add even more mud in the soup. My understanding is that from multispore culture, usually anyway, mycelium from two different germinated spores have to meet and form clamp connections to make a genetically homogeneous fruitable mycelial mass. This can be most easily isolated in a fruit body.
Two spores from the same parent mushroom may do this, but not necessarily any two spores. So it would seem more than possible that two different spores from the same mushroom might, for reasons of incompatibility, form zones of aversion.
Mainly, people hereabouts trade cultures in mycelial form, but it also seems very possible that, understanding the genetic variabilities (or not), people here might also have started new cultures from spore, and (incorrectly) considered them the same strain as the parent strain. A multispore culture like this could have literally dozens of different mycelia derived from dozens of spores. Each of these many combined mycelia would have an opportunity to "object" to any strain that is met, making a zone of aversion.
Jeff
Jeff...on this topic of genetic diversity, or lack thereof, can I muddy the topical waters further and discuss the 'age' of the genes (P or whatever you want to call it). If we were to continue a strain straight from tissue culture then it's 'age' would ever increase? correct? But if we do it from spores have we in effect 'reset' the age of a culture?
I remember hearing somewhere about shiitake in Japan, where the thinking was something along the lines of 'if the fruit is grown out on wood and a tissue culture taken then this is considered age zero'.
Sorry if this is a complete side track on the work Terry is doing but I know culture age is something that invariably gets discussed. Not sure why I felt compelled to be the first to bring it up in this thread. :P
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Javadog
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: NSF]
#15437331 - 11/28/11 07:10 PM (5 months, 28 days ago) |
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As far as permission goes, all you need is mine.
I started this off as a "Check out my Elm Oysters" thread, but it
has turned into the "edible mystery thread".
I couldn't be happier, as I needed some learnin'.
As of this moment, I am using the decurrent gills to define the
"Shroomery Elm Oyster" species. As I pointed out, even the H.u. page
on Ralphsters website shows this type of gill arrangement.
Have at it!
JD
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
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CH HELL
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15437642 - 11/28/11 08:08 PM (5 months, 28 days ago) |
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JD I wouldn't read too much into the pictures on Ralphs site as most of them are just stock photo's.
NSF- That scope will be fine for looking at spores. Be sure to look at the objective sizes as that scope has 40-100 which is common, only the eye pieces are different 10X and 20X. I personally wouldn't use a 20x eye piece for anything. Also IMO 400X is all you need for microscopy. If you can find a 400x stereo scope you will be much happier as you can do most anything myco related with it.
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PM me if you need help with anything!
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Jef
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: NSF]
#15437945 - 11/28/11 09:12 PM (5 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Jeff...on this topic of genetic diversity, or lack thereof, can I muddy the topical waters further and discuss the 'age' of the genes (P or whatever you want to call it).
I don't know what P is, but a culture can grow old (senescent)when it runs out of substrate and is then prevented from fruiting for too long.
Quote:
If we were to continue a strain straight from tissue culture then it's 'age' would ever increase? correct? But if we do it from spores have we in effect 'reset' the age of a culture?
Yes, that's usually true to our experience.We are not really able to support unbridled and continuous growth in our cultures. It is more like a stop and start affair, that may be the cause of senescence. There are thousands of years old single armillaria spanning many acres and weighing thousands of tons. IT has not begun making copying mistakes in its DNA. (Google: world's largest organism) This may be an anomaly, or perhaps it just shows the potential that fungi have given limitless food and the opportunity.
Quote:
I remember hearing somewhere about shiitake in Japan, where the thinking was something along the lines of 'if the fruit is grown out on wood and a tissue culture taken then this is considered age zero'.
They can consider what they like, but I don't believe this is so.
Jef
Oh and Javadog, thanks for being so good about what may be the biggest tread-jack ever.
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I am my own lab rat.
“Young lady!” cried Mr. Grout, very much appalled. “It ill becomes a young person of no consequence, such as yourself, to go about slandering great people in all the dignity of their property!”
- Mrs. Mabb, The Ladies of Grace Adieu, by Susanna Clarke
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NSF
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Jef]
#15438827 - 11/29/11 02:27 AM (5 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
CH HELL said:
NSF- That scope will be fine for looking at spores. Be sure to look at the objective sizes as that scope has 40-100 which is common, only the eye pieces are different 10X and 20X. I personally wouldn't use a 20x eye piece for anything. Also IMO 400X is all you need for microscopy. If you can find a 400x stereo scope you will be much happier as you can do most anything myco related with it.
Huh?! What?! I think I might have to go away and read the wiki on microscopes and how they work.
Is it pretty much a mathematical thing where the eye piece multiplied by the objective sizes? So 10*40 = 400x, 10*100 = 1000x, 20*100=2000x?
And why do I only need 400x? Sorry, I was just talking to a fungi fan on the weekend who said they needed to go to 1000x to be able to see...damn, now i forget. Spore identification at 400x but I can't remember what it was at 1000x with oil immersion.
Quote:
Jef said:
I don't know what P is, but a culture can grow old (senescent)when it runs out of substrate and is then prevented from fruiting for too long.
I thought that another cause of senescence was taking a culture too far and producing more and more isolates from children of children using tissue culturing from fruit? Or is it just age of mycelial transfers?
Quote:
Yes, that's usually true to our experience. We are not really able to support unbridled and continuous growth in our cultures. It is more like a stop and start affair, that may be the cause of senescence. There are thousands of years old single armillaria spanning many acres and weighing thousands of tons. IT has not begun making copying mistakes in its DNA. (Google: world's largest organism) This may be an anomaly, or perhaps it just shows the potential that fungi have given limitless food and the opportunity.
I have read about that giant honey mushroom.
When taking spores from a fruit, I know there is genetic diversity but just how much are we talking? Is it like saying in humans there's dominant and recessive for hair colour and eye colour and the strain you isolate from a spore might have recessives, wheras the parent was showing traits that were actually dominant (and desired) and now in the offspring you've isolated you no longer have that trait?
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Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15438963 - 11/29/11 03:54 AM (5 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Terry M said:
...
I just looked at the mycelium under the microscope. They're damn thin! Even at 1000x, they are still pretty thin. And a clamp connection is small compared to a mycelium diameter. I don't know how micrographs showing clamp connections are done. Is there a mushroom species with really thick mycellium, the mycological equivalent of Drosophila genes?
It wouldn't have worked anyway, because the tangle of mycelia is too disorganized. No way to trace any back.
Too bad, I was afraid the hyphal chaos would not allow to see a clear result, though clamp connections would not be a hint for mycelial fusion. You surely started with dikaryotic mycelia, all having clamp connections. Instead you would be looking for anastomosis, hyphae branching off at 90 degrees, connecting two hyphae from different mycelia.
Quote:
Terry M said:
...
So I think that there will be two indisputable tests for this project: macroscopic and microscopic.
1. Hypsizygus gills are adnexed or adnate. Oysters are decurrent (is this true for all Pleurotus?).
2. Hypsizygus spores are globose or subglobose. Oysters spores are cylindrical.
Please don't ignore the smell of scratched mycelium. The genera Hypsizygus and Pleurotus emit a completely different odor, due to a different metabolism.
Carsten
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Mycelio
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Quote:
solarity said:
Quote:
Terry M said:
I don't understand. BuckeyeOysters said he got his from Aloha.
Actually he said
Quote:
Yes it is aloha strain that I got on a trade. Not sure which specific one though.
So it may be Shroomery Pl.Ulm after all.
Exactly my thoughts, especially after seeing pictures of his fruitbodies.
Quote:
solarity said:
I have what I strongly believe to be Elm A on a couple of experimental straw logs about to go into the FC next day or so. Pics if fruits
Crossing my legs for that one, though if it does well on straw and perhaps grows fast, your chances aren't too great.
Carsten
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15439149 - 11/29/11 06:01 AM (5 months, 28 days ago) |
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Carsten: I tried the scratch and sniff test with a scalpel while the dish was open. Unfortunately, I couldn't smell anything. I'll be sure to do it whenever I have available fruits.
I'm currently fruiting some "H. ulmarius" I'd bought directly from The Mushroom Patch (www.themushroompatch.com). Mushrooms are still tiny, but the decurrent gills are unmistakable. Anybody want to bet on the spore shape? I'll give odds!
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ProfessorM
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Jef]
#15439165 - 11/29/11 06:09 AM (5 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Jef said:
Quote:
I don't know how micrographs showing clamp connections are done
All the clamp connection photos I have seen have been electron micrographs. That is not to say that there are no optical scopes that could do it, but maybe they are very powerful and few. The limitation with optical scopes tends to be supplying enough light to see a very small area without cooking it thoroughly out of existence.
Jeff
I'm in a mycology class at a local college right now and I can tell you that clamp connections and most microscopic keying features of mushrooms can be viewed with a conventional scope... if you are patient. It takes time to get good enough at making slides to be able to see specific features.
Scopes are very valuable when you want to identify down to species, and for certain species, it is impossible to identify without them. You can use KOH and Meltzers reactions to sort some things out, but you'll miss some of the coolest little unique quirks of the mushrooms (like oyster's horned basidia).
Best book around for keying out mushrooms that I've found is Mushrooms Demystified by David Arora.
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Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15439178 - 11/29/11 06:15 AM (5 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Terry M said:
Carsten: I tried the scratch and sniff test with a scalpel while the dish was open. Unfortunately, I couldn't smell anything. I'll be sure to do it whenever I have available fruits.
...
Alright, I was hoping there would be enough mycelium for that in the dishes.
Thanks for trying,
Carsten
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Javadog
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15439449 - 11/29/11 08:06 AM (5 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Terry M said:
Carsten: I tried the scratch and sniff test with a scalpel while the dish was open. Unfortunately, I couldn't smell anything. I'll be sure to do it whenever I have available fruits.
I'm currently fruiting some "H. ulmarius" I'd bought directly from The Mushroom Patch (www.themushroompatch.com). Mushrooms are still tiny, but the decurrent gills are unmistakable. Anybody want to bet on the spore shape? I'll give odds!
Well, our little mystery seems to widen in scope.
I have the wild-find H.u. in agar, and should be joining the fray again shortly.
JD
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jimmyjame1
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 Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15439478 - 11/29/11 08:16 AM (5 months, 27 days ago) |
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CH HELL
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: NSF]
#15439660 - 11/29/11 09:23 AM (5 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
NSF said:
Quote:
CH HELL said:
NSF- That scope will be fine for looking at spores. Be sure to look at the objective sizes as that scope has 40-100 which is common, only the eye pieces are different 10X and 20X. I personally wouldn't use a 20x eye piece for anything. Also IMO 400X is all you need for microscopy. If you can find a 400x stereo scope you will be much happier as you can do most anything myco related with it.
Huh?! What?! I think I might have to go away and read the wiki on microscopes and how they work.
Is it pretty much a mathematical thing where the eye piece multiplied by the objective sizes? So 10*40 = 400x, 10*100 = 1000x, 20*100=2000x?
And why do I only need 400x? Sorry, I was just talking to a fungi fan on the weekend who said they needed to go to 1000x to be able to see...damn, now i forget. Spore identification at 400x but I can't remember what it was at 1000x with oil immersion.
Yes that is correct 10X40= 400 or 20x400=800. 20X eye pieces seem to distort the image.
400X is plenty for looking at spores and Mycelium.
--------------------
If you have Porcini Mushrooms_ Boletus edulis culture PM me for a trade!
PM me if you need help with anything!
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: CH HELL]
#15439680 - 11/29/11 09:30 AM (5 months, 27 days ago) |
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i just got a microscope , i think it can go to 1000x with the x10 eyepiece. it has a built in digital camera and a plug in light source.
im excited for it.
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Terry M
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Quote:
jimmyjame1 said:
i just got a microscope , i think it can go to 1000x with the x10 eyepiece. it has a built in digital camera and a plug in light source.
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15439864 - 11/29/11 10:33 AM (5 months, 27 days ago) |
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i cant wait to be showing some pics off:)
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NSF
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What brand? How much? Any links?
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: NSF]
#15440581 - 11/29/11 01:59 PM (5 months, 27 days ago) |
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NSF
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I can't wait for a review. That seems like such a cheap price, I'm shocked it's so cheap!
Hopefully you get it soon and share how it performs, then I can get my order in to Santa in the next couple of weeks 
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: NSF]
#15443595 - 11/30/11 05:18 AM (5 months, 27 days ago) |
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Yea ive been searching for a good deal for a while I probably won't be using it until christmas day myself just because its a present.
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Terry M
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Here are the "Hypsizygus ulmarius" grown from the Mushroom Patch culture.
Gills: Decurrent like oysters, not adnexed or adnate, which Hypsizygus has.
Smell: oyster mushroomy.
And the spores:
Spores: cylindrical, like an oyster, not globosis or subglobosis, like Hypsizygus.
I've got other "H. ulmarius" at various stages of growth. I'm still waiting for cultures from Out-Grow and Javadog (jimmyjame1's mushrooms).
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Hypsizygus ulmarius [Re: Terry M]
#15453726 - 12/02/11 08:10 AM (5 months, 24 days ago) |
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those look tastey , but defiantly not like the mushroom i found.
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jimmyjame1
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just out of curiosity what is your substrate ratios?
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Terry M
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Quote:
jimmyjame1 said:
just out of curiosity what is your substrate ratios?
16 parts sawdust
8 parts wood chips
2 parts wheat bran
1 part gypsum
For one 4+ pound bag, I use a quart jar 2/3 filled with spawn, which is a 10% spawn to substrate ratio.
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Hypsizygus ulmarius [Re: Terry M]
#15453825 - 12/02/11 08:37 AM (5 months, 24 days ago) |
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beautiful sounds like a happy bag!
how big are your wood chips, i have some hickory chips ( for smoking meat) they are quite chunky but i thought if i mixed with plenty of saw dust it would work fine.
and for wheat bran, are there any substitutes you could recommend? would something like brow rice flower work in the same way?
how would you say this substrate preforms compared to straw?
i know its a lot of questions im just trying to learn as much as i can about wood substrates right now because i have a lot of wood lovers on grain right now and some small myco bags with filter ports, but my spawning procedure is a little weak right now.
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Javadog
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Re: Hypsizygus ulmarius [Re: Terry M]
#15453964 - 12/02/11 09:12 AM (5 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Terry M said:
Quote:
jimmyjame1 said:
just out of curiosity what is your substrate ratios?
16 parts sawdust
8 parts wood chips
2 parts wheat bran
1 part gypsum
For one 4+ pound bag, I use a quart jar 2/3 filled with spawn, which is a 10% spawn to substrate ratio.
Nice formula Terry.
I have the JJ EO on agar X 2 right now.
I am doing a plastic bag test, with one dish in a ziplock and the other
not. Both are parafilm wrapped. I want to test the breathability of
my ziplocks. Point: I am just not able to leave them inflated with
air. Even though it would be sterile flow hood air, I need to be able
to stack my dishes. Thus, if these bags do not breath enough for
good growth, then I will stop using them.
I will have a wedge out to you before too long in any case.
Take care,
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Hypsizygus ulmarius [Re: Javadog]
#15453991 - 12/02/11 09:19 AM (5 months, 24 days ago) |
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awesome send one to mr Terry there too!
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Javadog
Continuing along
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Quote:
jimmyjame1 said:
awesome send one to mr Terry there too!
LOL....I think that I just said that...
Thank *you* for sharing a wild find!
JD
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Hypsizygus ulmarius [Re: Javadog]
#15454049 - 12/02/11 09:30 AM (5 months, 24 days ago) |
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oops sorry
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Javadog
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No worries bro. It was just funny.
JD
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
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Terry M
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Quote:
jimmyjame1 said:
beautiful sounds like a happy bag!
how big are your wood chips, i have some hickory chips ( for smoking meat) they are quite chunky but i thought if i mixed with plenty of saw dust it would work fine.
I use wood chips of the kind that are sold for barbecue. To avoid are wood chunks, which I bought once by mistake. Those chunks are literally blocks of wood. I used cherry, and this source dried up, so I'm switching to Alder. But I've wondered about hickory.
Quote:
and for wheat bran, are there any substitutes you could recommend? would something like brow rice flower work in the same way?
I dont think so. You can use any type of bran: wheat, rice, oat, etc. I buy my wheat bran at Whole Foods. It's the cheapest thing by volume in the entire store!
Quote:
how would you say this substrate preforms compared to straw?
Apple and oranges. Picky wood lovers would not do well on straw. Oyster mushrooms do well on practically anything.
Get yourself a copy of Stamets' "Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms." Just ignore the White Elm Mushroom chapter.
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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Javadog
Continuing along
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Re: Hypsizygus ulmarius [Re: Terry M]
#15454440 - 12/02/11 11:42 AM (5 months, 24 days ago) |
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I have heard good things about Hickory, but Alder is the gold standard
from what I have read.
"Just ignore the White Elm Mushroom chapter."  Yes, this is perhaps
the original source for our mystery and this misnamed culture.
JD
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Hypsizygus ulmarius [Re: Javadog]
#15454521 - 12/02/11 12:10 PM (5 months, 24 days ago) |
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Lol ok that book is on my holiday wishlist
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Mycelio
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Re: Hypsizygus ulmarius [Re: Terry M]
#15458043 - 12/03/11 07:17 AM (5 months, 23 days ago) |
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Good work Terry!
And good to see an independent confirmation of the spore shape!
Carsten
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solarity
mm... my favourite food
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15458957 - 12/03/11 11:45 AM (5 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mycelio said:
Crossing my legs for that one, though if it does well on straw and perhaps grows fast, your chances aren't too great.
Well it sure has been fast on straw, grain and agar. Fastest culture I have worked with - actually from a commercial POV I am hoping it is the nice tasting one Stamets grew...!
Anyway, first pasteurised straw log has pins on (18 days incubation - too long I think as producing lots of metabolites) and 4 days in the FC so I guess we will see soon enough. I have a bunch of others at verious spawn rates/lime pasteurised all colonised like crazy - lime seems faster than heat but only fruiting will tell.
--------------------
Thinking about Growing Gourmet for a living? See if you can afford it!
Mmmm! Goddamn, Jimmie! This is some serious gourmet shit! Usually, me and Vince would be happy with some plain ole Agaricus right, but he springs this serious GOURMET shit on us!
TRADE Looking for a Volvariella Volvacea culture and a commercial pink culture of known origin. Have strong edible strains to trade.
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Terry M
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I've got cobweb mold on the top surface of H. ulmarius Aloha B. Never happened to me before. Should I try to save it by opening the top of the bag under sterile conditions, spray it well with hydrogen peroxide, and immediately reseal the bag?
In any case, I'll start over with another Aloha B grain jar on Tuesday.
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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mycoelf
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15459101 - 12/03/11 12:19 PM (5 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Terry M said:
I've got cobweb mold on the top surface of H. ulmarius Aloha B. Never happened to me before. Should I try to save it by opening the top of the bag under sterile conditions, spray it well with hydrogen peroxide, and immediately reseal the bag?
In any case, I'll start over with another Aloha B grain jar on Tuesday.
IMHO That culture is doomed for the trash, I would advise immediate removal, in my experience trying to save such efforts only leads to re-infection, I had a bout of the lipstick mold this summer that did not go away until I did a serious clean and restarted everything from slants.
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Mycoelf
I love to trade wedges. Currently looking for a nice brick top and Pleurotus Eunosmus the Tarragon Oyster. I am also getting interested in the agaricus, so if you have a cool agaricus in good genetic condition PM me please
Sterility is a process that can be likened unto infinity, which is a long walk, the closer to the end you start before beginning, the more achievable the goal of infinity becomes. Remember, cleanliness in next to goddessness
    
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: mycoelf]
#15459304 - 12/03/11 01:09 PM (5 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
mycoelf said:
IMHO That culture is doomed for the trash, I would advise immediate removal, in my experience trying to save such efforts only leads to re-infection.
You are right. I forgot about this possibility.
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solarity
mm... my favourite food
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... But take a look at how well Aloha Elm A does on pasteurised straw:
http://www.alohaecowas.com/diversified-agriculture-part1.html
--------------------
Thinking about Growing Gourmet for a living? See if you can afford it!
Mmmm! Goddamn, Jimmie! This is some serious gourmet shit! Usually, me and Vince would be happy with some plain ole Agaricus right, but he springs this serious GOURMET shit on us!
TRADE Looking for a Volvariella Volvacea culture and a commercial pink culture of known origin. Have strong edible strains to trade.
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Mycelio
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I think they don't offer all their strains, so 'ELM 1' may be something completely different than 'Elm A'. Or it is the 'EL' strain from here:
http://www.alohamedicinals.com/cultures.htm
We will know soon.
Carsten
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solarity
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15462679 - 12/04/11 03:27 AM (5 months, 23 days ago) |
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Good point, they refer to it as "Hypsizygous (sic) ulmarium ELM 1 strain" ... not Elm A
--------------------
Thinking about Growing Gourmet for a living? See if you can afford it!
Mmmm! Goddamn, Jimmie! This is some serious gourmet shit! Usually, me and Vince would be happy with some plain ole Agaricus right, but he springs this serious GOURMET shit on us!
TRADE Looking for a Volvariella Volvacea culture and a commercial pink culture of known origin. Have strong edible strains to trade.
Edited by solarity (12/04/11 03:29 AM)
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Mycelio
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I didn't expect that trying to solve one riddle would lead to so many new ones. This is worse than quantum physics...
@Terry
In case you didn't dispose of your H.u.B bag... I would open it outside, remove the mold spot and cover with less than an inch of garden soil or spent potting soil. The microbes and critters in there usually attack mold species first. You've got nothing to loose.
Carsten
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15462770 - 12/04/11 04:30 AM (5 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mycelio said:
@Terry
In case you didn't dispose of your H.u.B bag... I would open it outside, remove the mold spot and cover with less than an inch of garden soil or spent potting soil. The microbes and critters in there usually attack mold species first. You've got nothing to loose.
Earlier this morning, I dug the bag out of the trash. It's certainly safe indoors as long as I don't open it. The cobweb mold had been squashed down to the point of invisibility. I want to see what this will do, so its in quarantine, in a different room than any mushroom grow area.
If the cobweb mold reappears, I'll do like you suggest and open it outside. But I will spray with H2O2, which is known to selectively kill cobweb mold, while leaving mushroom mycelium untouched.
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Terry M
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Quote:
solarity said:
Well it sure has been fast on straw, grain and agar. Fastest culture I have worked with - actually from a commercial POV I am hoping it is the nice tasting one Stamets grew...!
Likely to be an oyster. My Aloha H. ulmarius are growing leisurely, while the other strains are, well, growing like oysters! But from a commercial point of view, this doesn't matter.
It'd be nice to know what species of Pleurotus we are finding. As far as I looked, there is no complete monograph on the genus. Of course, years ago this was a huge, catch-all "genus" for a whole lot of species that have since been correctly classified. I don't think the genus Hypsizygus existed until 1947, when Singer defined and named it.
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solarity
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15485145 - 12/08/11 09:46 AM (5 months, 18 days ago) |
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Ok so mine have decurrent gills and look like a white/beige Pleurotus. Nothing like H. Tess. So either
a) I dont have the AM strain
or
b) the AM strain is the Pleurotus Ulmarius that everyone has.
One thing I have noticed is that it colonises very fast ... but then wants to sit around for a bit before it fruits. So a new grey oyster strain I have going at the same time was second into fruiting conditions but first to fruit. This is similar with my experience of H. Tess that it fruits about 20-30 days after full colonisation. I am also getting a lot of metabolites produced during colonisation.
Have to say that what ever it is, it does taste good!
--------------------
Thinking about Growing Gourmet for a living? See if you can afford it!
Mmmm! Goddamn, Jimmie! This is some serious gourmet shit! Usually, me and Vince would be happy with some plain ole Agaricus right, but he springs this serious GOURMET shit on us!
TRADE Looking for a Volvariella Volvacea culture and a commercial pink culture of known origin. Have strong edible strains to trade.
Edited by solarity (12/08/11 09:57 AM)
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jimmyjame1
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any other updates?
im curious to see some of the other agar work
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Javadog
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Hey JJ,
I think that I will have to do a hot pour to get the H.t. that you
sent me clean on agar. I did what I hoped was a clean xfer from the
initial dish, but that appears to have carried the bacteria with it.
I will post results, here, when possible,
Take care,
JD
--------------------
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Myco-tek.org
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15529856 - 12/17/11 08:50 AM (5 months, 9 days ago) |
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sounds good
what does pouring hot agar do to kill bacteria?
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Javadog
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It may kill some bacteria immediately, but it really depends on the
fungus's ability to reach through the new agar layer to the new surface
faster that the bacteria can follow.
I make a xfer to a new dish as soon as the fungus break the new surface.
JD
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15529964 - 12/17/11 09:22 AM (5 months, 9 days ago) |
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intresting!
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Terry M
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OK, this is highly embarrassing, but I have a slant of H. ulmarius I cannot account for. : 
 
This morning, I cataloged every slant in the fridge. And this was leftover! I thought I was being very careful organizing all the cultures for the Elm Oyster project. But here this is, with no identification of origin. I know I didn't make this slant because it is not the size tube I use, and the writing is not mine. The date, Nov 23, 2010 is strangely old. Maybe I got this last year, way before the current project, and failed to label it?
If anybody recognizes this slant, please let me know!
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EvilMushroom666
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15541911 - 12/19/11 06:56 PM (5 months, 7 days ago) |
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Terry:
That was the Shroomery ELM that I sent you as the control for what is
going around the site.
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Terry M
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Quote:
EvilMushroom666 said:
Terry:
That was the Shroomery ELM that I sent you as the control for what is
going around the site.
Thank you so much, EM! I was going to grow it out tomorrow, but now I can remove it from tomorrow's list. I've already got plenty of culture from it.
Going to label it this minute!
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EvilMushroom666
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15542017 - 12/19/11 07:12 PM (5 months, 7 days ago) |
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Not a problem brother
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15644024 - 01/10/12 06:28 AM (4 months, 17 days ago) |
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Here are the photos for the "Shroomery H. ulmarius."
 
Decurrent gills, ellipsoidal spores. As expected, not H. ulmarius.
Still working on the two Aloha strains. I hope to have the answers in the near future!
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solarity
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15644060 - 01/10/12 06:55 AM (4 months, 17 days ago) |
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Another grower growing the AM strain http://www.fungiforum.com/index.php?showtopic=1296&view=findpost&p=12751 - decurrent gills etc.
I am thinking thats what you will get when you fruit the AM strains you have.
--------------------
Thinking about Growing Gourmet for a living? See if you can afford it!
Mmmm! Goddamn, Jimmie! This is some serious gourmet shit! Usually, me and Vince would be happy with some plain ole Agaricus right, but he springs this serious GOURMET shit on us!
TRADE Looking for a Volvariella Volvacea culture and a commercial pink culture of known origin. Have strong edible strains to trade.
|
Terry M
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Quote:
solarity said:
Another grower growing the AM strain http://www.fungiforum.com/index.php?showtopic=1296&view=findpost&p=12751 - decurrent gills etc.
I am thinking thats what you will get when you fruit the AM strains you have.
Unfortunately, the problem isn't limited to the US. Here's an Austrian source:
http://www.mrcashop.org/mushroom_shop/hypsizygus-ulmarius-oyster-shirotamogitake-p-444.html
I'll bet that real European culture libraries have the genuine article. But as a non-research institution, either I don't have access to them, or they require a ton of customs authorization. The American Type Culture Collection has one, but I am not about the pay their $275 charge! And there are no guarantees that it is genuine. They get donated cultures, labeled with whatever species names that the depositing mycologist thinks they are.
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markalbob
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15644427 - 01/10/12 09:38 AM (4 months, 16 days ago) |
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so.....in Mycelium running Stamets mentioned elm oyster increasing yields of some vegetables by like 4-6-fold.....and regular ostreatus decreasing them.
wonder if this was 2 vastly different ostreatus strains in that work too? And if you wanted to do his straw mulch thing, if that meant you actually wanted his "good" ostreatus oyster (mis-labeled as ulmonarius) rather than a true elm oyster....
what a cluster. :-(
--------------------
Trade list
Haves: Shiitake West Wind and S75, Hericium erinaceum(unknown) and "Liberty", A. aegerita, SRA, Nameko, Reishi (lucidum and resinaceum), Phoenix oyster, Blue oyster
Wants: Blewitt, Giant Puffball, black morel, H. sublaterium, shaggymane
PM if you'd like to swap
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solarity
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Could you not drop the ATCC a line and ask for their view on it? They might have an ans already.
--------------------
Thinking about Growing Gourmet for a living? See if you can afford it!
Mmmm! Goddamn, Jimmie! This is some serious gourmet shit! Usually, me and Vince would be happy with some plain ole Agaricus right, but he springs this serious GOURMET shit on us!
TRADE Looking for a Volvariella Volvacea culture and a commercial pink culture of known origin. Have strong edible strains to trade.
Edited by solarity (01/10/12 02:38 PM)
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Javadog
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This is correct, but I had thought that the jury was still out on the Aloha genetics...
JD
--------------------
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Myco-tek.org
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15645842 - 01/10/12 03:00 PM (4 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Javadog said:
This is correct, but I had thought that the jury was still out on the Aloha genetics...
JD
Yes, the jury is still out. I've had some delays with fruiting these cultures, but I'll get the results as soon as possible. These grow significantly slower than the "Pleurotus" varieties of H. ulmarius that I've grown so far.
--------------------
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Javadog
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15645931 - 01/10/12 03:18 PM (4 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Terry M said:
Quote:
Javadog said:
This is correct, but I had thought that the jury was still out on the Aloha genetics...
JD
Yes, the jury is still out. I've had some delays with fruiting these cultures, but I'll get the results as soon as possible. These grow significantly slower than the "Pleurotus" varieties of H. ulmarius that I've grown so far.
Yes, LOL, the doppelganger has many "pleurotus like skills".
Fast growth among them it appears.
JD
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15646107 - 01/10/12 03:55 PM (4 months, 16 days ago) |
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any luck with the wild print jd?
--------------------
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markalbob
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15646582 - 01/10/12 05:38 PM (4 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Terry M said:
Quote:
Javadog said:
This is correct, but I had thought that the jury was still out on the Aloha genetics...
JD
Yes, the jury is still out. I've had some delays with fruiting these cultures, but I'll get the results as soon as possible. These grow significantly slower than the "Pleurotus" varieties of H. ulmarius that I've grown so far.
stamets (and others) have also mentioned ulmonarius being far tastier than ostreatus and other oysters......
I assume that was also a reflection on their mis-labeled "super-ostreatus" rather than actual elm oysters??? thoughts?
--------------------
Trade list
Haves: Shiitake West Wind and S75, Hericium erinaceum(unknown) and "Liberty", A. aegerita, SRA, Nameko, Reishi (lucidum and resinaceum), Phoenix oyster, Blue oyster
Wants: Blewitt, Giant Puffball, black morel, H. sublaterium, shaggymane
PM if you'd like to swap
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Javadog
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Quote:
jimmyjame1 said:
any luck with the wild print jd?
Hey JJ,
Well, it fought cleaning up, but I now have a clean plate that I am soaking
some WBS for right now. I should be able to post some results before
the end of Feb at least. (four weeks at a minimum).
Thanks for asking, and for sharing,
JD
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15647286 - 01/10/12 08:15 PM (4 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Javadog said:
Quote:
jimmyjame1 said:
any luck with the wild print jd?
Hey JJ,
Well, it fought cleaning up, but I now have a clean plate that I am soaking
some WBS for right now. I should be able to post some results before
the end of Feb at least. (four weeks at a minimum).
Thanks for asking, and for sharing,
JD
it would just be nice to see it on a big healthy block!
--------------------
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solarity
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According to this http://www.cncexoticmushrooms.com/p/105/461/ms23-156/beech-mushroom---hypsizygus-tessulatus ... Elm Oysters are H. Tess grown in the dark - the pic certainly looks like the contenious ones!
--------------------
Thinking about Growing Gourmet for a living? See if you can afford it!
Mmmm! Goddamn, Jimmie! This is some serious gourmet shit! Usually, me and Vince would be happy with some plain ole Agaricus right, but he springs this serious GOURMET shit on us!
TRADE Looking for a Volvariella Volvacea culture and a commercial pink culture of known origin. Have strong edible strains to trade.
|
Javadog
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Then the mystery becomes what (and where ;0) are we to
find the elusive H. ulmarius?
This is the specific name of "Elm Oyster", n'est-ce pas?
It was regarding H. u. that I started this thread.
The decurrent gills were pointed out, and here we are.
Onward and upward,
JD
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
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Terry M
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Quote:
solarity said:
According to this http://www.cncexoticmushrooms.com/p/105/461/ms23-156/beech-mushroom---hypsizygus-tessulatus ... Elm Oysters are H. Tess grown in the dark - the pic certainly looks like the contenious ones!
They are different species. I have a key from a mycology paper* which describes a different range of spore sizes and shapes for H. ulmarius and H. tessulatus, as well as some differing macroscopic features.
* S. A. Redhead, "Mycological Observations 15-16: On Omphalia and Pleurotus," Mycologia, Vol. 78, No. 4 (Jul. - Aug., 1986), pp. 522-528.
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solarity
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15656242 - 01/12/12 03:16 PM (4 months, 14 days ago) |
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... which would also be correct if the decurrent, oyster like version was indeed H. Ulmarius!
--------------------
Thinking about Growing Gourmet for a living? See if you can afford it!
Mmmm! Goddamn, Jimmie! This is some serious gourmet shit! Usually, me and Vince would be happy with some plain ole Agaricus right, but he springs this serious GOURMET shit on us!
TRADE Looking for a Volvariella Volvacea culture and a commercial pink culture of known origin. Have strong edible strains to trade.
|
Terry M
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Quote:
solarity said:
... which would also be correct if the decurrent, oyster like version was indeed H. Ulmarius!
Except that Hypsizygus doesn't have decurrent gills. The genus was first defined by Singer in 1947*. Here is Singer's description of the gills:
Quote:
lamellis adnexis vel adnatis, neque decurrentibus nisi dente inconstante, nec profunde sinuatis neque emarginatis nisi in uno latere carpophororum paucorum;
I know! It's in Latin! Singer was apparently Old School, and used Latin for the formal description. Scientific papers used to be written entirely in Latin.
Anyway, according to my best Google Translate Latin, this means:
Quote:
Gills are adnexed or adnate, but not adnate with a decurrent tooth, nor deeply sinuate, unless there is a little marginate on one side of the fruiting body.
Yes, I have become a little nuts on the subject of Hypsizygus taxonomy. 
*R. Singer, "New Genera of Fungi. III," Mycologia, Vol. 39, No. 1 (Jan. - Feb., 1947), pp. 77-89.
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15672642 - 01/16/12 06:43 AM (4 months, 11 days ago) |
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I was about to toss a block of "Shroomery H. ulmarius" when I noticed a new flush of mushrooms popping out along the edges. These look exactly like the two photos in GGMM of H. ulmarius growing from jars ( top view, with gills conveniently not shown ). It's really a nice Pleurotus species -- very prolific and fast-growing. I'm cooking these in omelets for dinner.
But just what species of Pleurotus is this? Is it it's own species, which should have a new name? Something like "Pleurotus pseudo-ulmarius?" Or is it an existing species, maybe just some strain of P. ostreatus?
Anybody know of a good modern, reasonably complete key to the genus Pleurotus? I haven't been able to find one.
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Javadog
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15673130 - 01/16/12 09:27 AM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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It is definitely a strong fruiter Terry.
I found it to be very tasty too.
BTW: I have JJs H. tessulatus on grains now. I will
post results when possible.
JD
P.S. Do you have a copy of "Mushrooms Demystified"? It
has keys for both Pleurotis and Hypsizygus.
--------------------
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Edited by Javadog (01/16/12 09:28 AM)
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15673167 - 01/16/12 09:35 AM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Javadog said:
P.S. Do you have a copy of "Mushrooms Demystified"? It
has keys for both Pleurotis and Hypsizygus.
 Yes, I do. Will study this later today. Thanks, JD!
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15673855 - 01/16/12 01:22 PM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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I just used the Pleurotus key. It doesn't go deep enough. The last thing you get to when you follow it is "Pleurotus ostreatus & others." This is a single entry, with brief mention of the usual suspects: P. columbinus, P. cornucopiae, etc.
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Javadog
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15674031 - 01/16/12 01:56 PM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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Arora!
Sorry bro. Thank you very much for trying.
(I had thought to check your results, as the keys are
still a tad new to me)
Take care,
JD
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15674079 - 01/16/12 02:07 PM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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Based on what we know about Pleurotus, the most likely candidate for "Shroomery H. ulmarius" is plain old Pleurotus ostreatus.
I just realized that there's a simple test that I used before to determine if cultures are of different species. Its the "zone of aversion" thing, where you let two agar culture grow towards each other, and see if a zone of aversion is set up between them.
So I'll make the two cultures "Shroomery H. ulmarius" and Pleurotus ostreatus. If a zone of aversion results, they are not the same species. If they grow into each other, we can't draw a conclude one way or the other.
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Javadog
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15674192 - 01/16/12 02:30 PM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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Great idea!
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lipa
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15685047 - 01/18/12 05:46 PM (4 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Terry M said:
Based on what we know about Pleurotus, the most likely candidate for "Shroomery H. ulmarius" is plain old Pleurotus ostreatus.
I just realized that there's a simple test that I used before to determine if cultures are of different species. Its the "zone of aversion" thing, where you let two agar culture grow towards each other, and see if a zone of aversion is set up between them.
So I'll make the two cultures "Shroomery H. ulmarius" and Pleurotus ostreatus. If a zone of aversion results, they are not the same species. If they grow into each other, we can't draw a conclude one way or the other.
This wont work terry. It would only prove that the cultures are not compatible with each other, not if they are a different species.
Lipa
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Javadog
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: lipa]
#15685208 - 01/18/12 06:15 PM (4 months, 8 days ago) |
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How does this differ from how Stamets determined that
his outdoor fruits were the result of his efforts?
I think that it was a Lepiota grow. I will have to
look it up to watch again....I have some learnin' to do.
JD
--------------------
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EvilMushroom666
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15685246 - 01/18/12 06:23 PM (4 months, 8 days ago) |
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Java: It was a morel patch he had spawned, and the testing was done to
see if the fruits he was harvesting came from the patch he himself had
established, or if it was a wild colony.
When the mycelium melded together seamlessly he knew that the fruit came
from the culture that he had used to inoculate his outdoor patch.
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Javadog
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Doh!
To see if it was the same strain....
Thanks bro.
JD
--------------------
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EvilMushroom666
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15685308 - 01/18/12 06:37 PM (4 months, 8 days ago) |
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No problems brother,
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15685388 - 01/18/12 06:54 PM (4 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Javadog said:
Doh!
To see if it was the same strain....
Thanks bro.
JD
This is correct. Plating two cultures which don't merge seamlessly does not mean they're different species, only different strains.
RR
--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
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GroboClone
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Has anyone come across studies with DNA analysis?
I'm down to compare the different cultures floating around.
Just need to be pointed in the right direction and I'll take it from there.
Gives me a good excuse to try out the new (to me) PCR machine. 
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Javadog
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Well Grobo, I started this whole thing with my "Elm Oysters"...
...do you need a wedge?
Let me know,
JD
--------------------
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Terry M
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Quote:
EvilMushroom666 said:
Java: It was a morel patch he had spawned, and the testing was done to
see if the fruits he was harvesting came from the patch he himself had
established, or if it was a wild colony.
When the mycelium melded together seamlessly he knew that the fruit came
from the culture that he had used to inoculate his outdoor patch.
If mycelium meld together seamlessly, you still don't know they are the same strain. This can happen with cultures of the same species regardless of strain, else they would not be sexually compatible.
Wait a minute. I may be full of shit. Let me look at this stuff again tomorrow, after a night's sleep. I thought I understood this zone of aversion thing, but now not so sure.
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
Edited by Terry M (01/21/12 08:20 PM)
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lipa
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15699466 - 01/21/12 08:13 PM (4 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
And if not sexually compatible and able to reproduce, they are, by definition, not of the same species!
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: lipa]
#15699526 - 01/21/12 08:27 PM (4 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
lipa said:
Quote:
And if not sexually compatible and able to reproduce, they are, by definition, not of the same species!
As edited above, I gotta think about this more tomorrow with a fresh brain. But regardless of phylum, aren't two sexual organisms of the same species only if they can interbreed?
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
Edited by Terry M (01/21/12 08:28 PM)
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Javadog
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15699740 - 01/21/12 09:20 PM (4 months, 5 days ago) |
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You know Terry, I am reaching way back to my understanding
of general biology, but I do recall that as being the
definition of a species.
I think that we only need to add the requirement that
the product of this reproduction be fecund.
Onward and upward,
JD
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Beefy1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15699888 - 01/21/12 09:50 PM (4 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
Terry M said:
Quote:
lipa said:
Quote:
And if not sexually compatible and able to reproduce, they are, by definition, not of the same species!
aren't two sexual organisms of the same species only if they can interbreed?
Nope. I don't think so. Not positive about mushrooms but with plants and animals different species can interbreed and have fertile offspring all the time.
Happens with fish all the time.
Trees from different parts of the world,
I want a pet Liger.
 http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQGNht_z6JwuSqYjBIzdd8egb2aACJ_4xBTz3fsx8yzJBFITY0h
and a glass of grapefruit lemonade 
I am high also.
Edited by Beefy1 (01/21/12 09:53 PM)
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Javadog
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Beefy1]
#15700271 - 01/21/12 11:58 PM (4 months, 5 days ago) |
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...OK, deeper we go...
I checked the Liger, out of curiosity, and find that
it is not entirely fecund, but it is also not sterile.
It seems that the definition has been expanded. From the Wiki:
==========================================
While in many cases, this definition is adequate, more
precise or differing measures are often used, such as
similarity of DNA, morphology or ecological niche.
==========================================
(back to DNA)
JD
--------------------
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Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15700666 - 01/22/12 03:52 AM (4 months, 5 days ago) |
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Hi guys, with my current knowledge, I'd say that if two mycelia fuse, it means they are either the same strain or two compatible strains of the same species. If they refuse to merge, they are either incompatible strains of the same species or different species.
Regarding the question where in the P. ostreatus complex our Pleurotus 'H.u.' belongs, those chemical reagents may give us a clue. Perhaps somebody has potassium hydroxide or sulfuric acid and vanillin to test it on fresh mushroom tissue.
It may be possible to replace KOH by ordinary dish soap, as liquid soaps are generally potassium based and the PH should be above 7.
Carsten
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15700755 - 01/22/12 05:14 AM (4 months, 5 days ago) |
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The basic bio 101 species rules are pretty simple for us monokaryotes (critters with one nucleus per cell) who create new strains (races, subspecies, lines, etc.) only via sexual reproduction of our gametes. Gametes are haploid cells with one set of chromosomes (1 unique complement of DNA), like eggs and sperm that combine to make a new diploid cell ( 2 sets of chromosomes, one from poppa and one from momma). If two organisms can breed AND have fertile offspring, they're in the same species. If they can't have offspring, or the offspring aren't fertile (horse + donkey = infertile mule), they're not of the same species.
The confusion for me comes because mating of mycelium doesn't have to be a pure gamete meets gamete process. It can happen between mycelium of the same individual organism. Mycelia can have multiple nuclei. They also can have way more than 2 sexes. So sexual reproduction among fungi is not a cut and dried thing.
What is "sexual compatibility" as applied to mycelia which may be polyploid, and are capable of essentially fucking themselves? The rules for creation of zones of aversion between cultures require some thinking, I think. There's a paper called "INTERACTIONS OF RECOMBINED MYCELIA OF THE FUNGUS FOMITOPSIS PINICOLA (SOW. EX FR.) KARST. ON PDA MEDIUM," by Vladimir Lazarev, GENETIKA, Vol. 34, No. 1, 21-32, 2002. It addresses this in part, but I need to read it again because its conclusions were by no means clear to me.
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Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15700819 - 01/22/12 06:04 AM (4 months, 5 days ago) |
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Wow, that is quite an interesting paper. Let me add a direct link:
http://www.dgsgenetika.org.rs/abstrakti/vol34_no1_rad03.pdf
It's fascinating to see some numbers. I never expected the rate of fusion compatibility to be so low.
Unfortunately, I think there are two types of compatibility, first the ability for hyphal fusion and exchange of nuclei, independent of mating type, just like tissue compatibility for organ transplants.
Sexual compatibility seems to be another story, dependent on mating type and likely some other factors, as from time to time sterile, spore less mushrooms are found in nature, where fruiting happens, but meiosis in the basidia or asci fails.
Carsten
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Terry M
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Quote:
GroboClone said:
Has anyone come across studies with DNA analysis?
I'm down to compare the different cultures floating around.
Just need to be pointed in the right direction and I'll take it from there.
Gives me a good excuse to try out the new (to me) PCR machine.
Here are a bunch of existing H. ulmarius DNA sequences:
http://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/Taxon:71891
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15701741 - 01/22/12 11:33 AM (4 months, 4 days ago) |
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Carsten, there's something basic from this paper that I'm just not understanding. Maybe you can explain it to me.
Why did the author use "fragments of the hymenal layer (0.5 x 0.5 cm) representing the inoculum ..."? Couldn't taking bits of a hymenal layer include lots of spores, thus generate a polyspore, multi-strain culture? It would grow out into a bunch of sectors. Do you choose one sector? Then why not just clone some of the trama, which would give a monospore culture directly?
If polyspore cultures were directly and purposely used rather than purified monospore cultures, who knows which strain would "win out" in a mycelium confrontation on agar? Wouldn't this just introduce uncontrolled variables that would make comparison of different innocula pairings less meaningful?
I don't get it.
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15703188 - 01/22/12 04:43 PM (4 months, 4 days ago) |
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Right, on a second look, we have to be careful, interpreting data from this paper.
The author could have taken trama samples, most likely representing a single, dikaryotic strain, but then several up to all of his strains might have been identical.
I guess he was aiming for lots of different strains, so he chose multispore cultures, transferred and selected 'a pure culture'. Not defining how and what he selected indeed raises doubts.
So, not knowing from how many and how different parent strains the hymenal samples came from plus not knowing how strain selection was performed, we do have many uncertainties here, but we can still see that the tested, already dikaryotic or heterokaryotic F. pinicola strains from different fruitbodies rarely merge, while offspring of the same parent strain often fuse.
Now we have to keep in mind that those strains came from a wild, genetically diverse population, which may behave differently than our cultivated Pleurotus strains. After generations of inbreeding and selection, the genetic variation gets reduced, resulting in more hyphal fusions between dikaryotic mycelia within a cultivated strain.
In my opinion, seeing a zone of aversion between a strain of P. ostreatus and our Pleurotus 'H.u.' won't prove anything. We could have either two incompatible strains of the same species or two different species.
Only hyphal fusion could tell us if we have compatible strains of the same species. We might have to test a lot of strains from P. ostreatus, P. pulmonarius, perhaps also P. populinus and more species, until we find a match. Hopefully those chemical reagents can help reducing the species in question.
In theory, pairings of single spore isolates should be more promising. I think monokaryotic mycelia are less picky about fusing with a possible partner than dikaryotic ones, but then creating all those monospore cultures would be much annoying work.
Carsten
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15703589 - 01/22/12 05:54 PM (4 months, 4 days ago) |
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my goodness you guys
this is like the never ending rabbit hole. the science you are getting into is so mindboggling.
thanks for all your hard work! hopefully we can all get to the bottom of this H.u. confusion
--------------------
LOVE PEACE AND BEAUTIFUL MUSIC.
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Mycelio
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Yes, who would have thought that IDing an oyster would be so confusing.
In between I remembered a simpler way for a mating study, which would only require one monokaryotic (single spore) mycelium of a mislabeled elm oyster. This should be doable by streaking spores across an agar plate with the good old zigzag pattern. The isolated mycelium could be put on grain and spawned to several small substrate bags. After full colonization they should not be able to fruit. Then either the surface would be sprayed with a spore solution from P. ostreatus, P. pulmonarius and whatever is to be tested or a fresh sporulating mushroom would be placed above it. Some hundred thousand spores would germinate in each bag and in case of sexual compatibility primordia or mushrooms should reveal success.
What do you guys think?
Carsten
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NSF
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15709923 - 01/24/12 12:01 AM (4 months, 3 days ago) |
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Why would they not be able to fruit when they are cultures from many spores?
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Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: NSF]
#15710208 - 01/24/12 02:40 AM (4 months, 3 days ago) |
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No, I meant that from the zigzag plate, one would try to isolate a monokaryotic mycelium, growing from one spore. This should not be able to fruit until it fuses with another mycelium of the opposite mating type.
Carsten
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GroboClone
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15710768 - 01/24/12 08:06 AM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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Thanks Terry, just what I was looking for.
Some very good links there.
The idea is to run the samples on an electrophoresis gel and not have to send out for sequencing.
Fungal-specific PCR primers developed for analysis of the ITS region of environmental DNA extracts
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lipa
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15714002 - 01/24/12 09:14 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mycelio said:
Yes, who would have thought that IDing an oyster would be so confusing.
In between I remembered a simpler way for a mating study, which would only require one monokaryotic (single spore) mycelium of a mislabeled elm oyster. This should be doable by streaking spores across an agar plate with the good old zigzag pattern. The isolated mycelium could be put on grain and spawned to several small substrate bags. After full colonization they should not be able to fruit. Then either the surface would be sprayed with a spore solution from P. ostreatus, P. pulmonarius and whatever is to be tested or a fresh sporulating mushroom would be placed above it. Some hundred thousand spores would germinate in each bag and in case of sexual compatibility primordia or mushrooms should reveal success.
What do you guys think?
Carsten
Monokaryotic oyster mycelium can fruit so that is not a fullproof idea. They make for good crosses because they usually produce nice productive fruiting cultures as a result. So Chang says.
Lipa
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Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: lipa]
#15714046 - 01/24/12 09:28 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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Damned, I wasn't aware that oysters can do that too.
Thank you for the info!
Carsten
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solarity
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15734128 - 01/29/12 02:08 PM (3 months, 28 days ago) |
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Stamets on the 2 strains on a dish thing (you guys lost me after that) it's morels but same concept
http://youtu.be/dJvwoGLxmhs
--------------------
Thinking about Growing Gourmet for a living? See if you can afford it!
Mmmm! Goddamn, Jimmie! This is some serious gourmet shit! Usually, me and Vince would be happy with some plain ole Agaricus right, but he springs this serious GOURMET shit on us!
TRADE Looking for a Volvariella Volvacea culture and a commercial pink culture of known origin. Have strong edible strains to trade.
Edited by solarity (01/29/12 02:10 PM)
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Terry M
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Just an update:
I've had lab contamination problems, so rather than keep battling them in not easily sterilizable environment, I'm making a 100% dedicated lab room. This should be operational next week, when I get my new phenolic resin topped 3'x6' lab bench. I just installed a completely washable vinyl floor, which will have waterproof silicone caulk around all the edges.
In the meantime, I've got some colonized jars of Aloha H. ulmarius in the fridge on hold. These will hopefully go into filter patch bags next week.
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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Javadog
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M] 1
#15759471 - 02/04/12 08:21 AM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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Thanks for the update Terry.
I just spawned the first of my grain quarts of JJ's H. tessulatus
to some straw sacks the other day.
It strikes me as slow to recover, but no contams yet, so
hope springs eternal.
I expanded my initial quarts and so have others that I will
be using with plain sawdust sacks. My last pass will likely
be supplemented and properly pasteurized sawdust sacks.
Take care,
JD
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
Edited by Javadog (02/04/12 08:22 AM)
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15759485 - 02/04/12 08:29 AM (3 months, 22 days ago) |
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sounds great,
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LOVE PEACE AND BEAUTIFUL MUSIC.
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metacohl
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Amazing thread! Thank you to everyone who has contributed to unraveling this mystery. Absolutely fascinating!
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It's only rocket science.
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Javadog
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Hello all,
Check out this kit:
http://www.mushroomadventures.com/p-6-elm-oyster-mushroom-kit.aspx
It looks like they made the P.o. vs. H.u. mix-up as well.
(though one of their photos even looks like P. eryngii)
Terry, how are the Aloha H.u. doing?
My work with JJ's H.t. is going slowly. It seems that it's culture
is fighting to protect a bacterium. I may have to do a hot pour if
my latest grain efforts are as weak as the last.
Take care,
JD
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
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NSF
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15881879 - 02/29/12 03:07 PM (2 months, 28 days ago) |
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I thought i'd look at some non Stamets literature, hopeful that David Arora's book would clear things up a bit, but noooo...no mention of H. ulmarius in Mushrooms Demystified. I was a little shocked.
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Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: NSF]
#15882123 - 02/29/12 04:02 PM (2 months, 28 days ago) |
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Don't know about that particular book, but some mycologists do not separate H. ulmarius from H. tessulatus.
Carsten
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Javadog
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: NSF]
#15882203 - 02/29/12 04:21 PM (2 months, 28 days ago) |
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I am even more shocked. MD is so comprehensive...or so I thought.
Could it be listed under an older name? MD has been around...
I will check if I can find my copy.
JD
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
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kotter
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15882345 - 02/29/12 04:56 PM (2 months, 28 days ago) |
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It appears in MD as the synonym mentioned above. (See page 133)
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15889128 - 03/02/12 04:28 AM (2 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Javadog said:
Terry, how are the Aloha H.u. doing?
Out of town right now, but hopefully my new sawdust/wood chip bags of both A and B strains are growing nicely.
--------------------
Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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Javadog
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15889500 - 03/02/12 07:53 AM (2 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Terry M said:
Quote:
Javadog said:
Terry, how are the Aloha H.u. doing?
Out of town right now, but hopefully my new sawdust/wood chip bags of both A and B strains are growing nicely.
Cool. Thanks for the update.
I made some straw blocks of the H. t. that JJ sent me, but this culture
seems to have resisted cleaning up. I may try a hot pour on one of
these dishes. (the blocks are colonizing, but look ugly...bacteria)
Good luck,
JD
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15889548 - 03/02/12 08:06 AM (2 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Javadog said:
Quote:
Terry M said:
Quote:
Javadog said:
Terry, how are the Aloha H.u. doing?
Out of town right now, but hopefully my new sawdust/wood chip bags of both A and B strains are growing nicely.
Cool. Thanks for the update.
I made some straw blocks of the H. t. that JJ sent me, but this culture
seems to have resisted cleaning up. I may try a hot pour on one of
these dishes. (the blocks are colonizing, but look ugly...bacteria)
Good luck,
JD
nasty bacteria! it really seems invested in staying in that culture LOL.
--------------------
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Another method is the transfer a contammed wedge to peroxidated agar, then take a metal cigar tube, or similar small metal cylinder and heat it up, then place it over the agar wedge and burn a circle into the agar (around the wedge). The mushroom mycelium will be the first thing to grow over this 'moat'/ring, as soon as it does, cut the leading edge to fresh plates. The mycelium seems to pass right over the indent, whereas contams seem to dip down into it.
Weird i know but it helps.
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: NSF]
#15891905 - 03/02/12 06:01 PM (2 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
NSF said:
Another method is the transfer a contammed wedge to peroxidated agar, then take a metal cigar tube, or similar small metal cylinder and heat it up, then place it over the agar wedge and burn a circle into the agar (around the wedge). The mushroom mycelium will be the first thing to grow over this 'moat'/ring, as soon as it does, cut the leading edge to fresh plates. The mycelium seems to pass right over the indent, whereas contams seem to dip down into it.
Weird i know but it helps.
I am very happy to learn an alternative.
It is a clear plan too, as the hyphae will be able to reach across the moat
where the bacteria will be left on the "shore".
(there is the legendary "bacteria literally growing on/with the fungus"
situation, but I will never solve that with transfers anyway...well
maybe this is where a very hot pour might lead...)
Thanks for taking the time.
JD
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solarity
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: NSF]
#15894681 - 03/03/12 12:35 PM (2 months, 25 days ago) |
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Thanks NSF thats a new one on me but worth a try for a bacterial culture
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Mmmm! Goddamn, Jimmie! This is some serious gourmet shit! Usually, me and Vince would be happy with some plain ole Agaricus right, but he springs this serious GOURMET shit on us!
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i like it i have an a few cultures i need to work on thanks for the tip!
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#16012431 - 03/29/12 06:25 AM (2 months, 1 hour ago) |
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I've got a bag of H. ulmarius Aloha strain A colonized nicely. But I'm having trouble getting it to fruit.
I've tried 70 degrees F. at 95% humidity with no luck, and am currently trying 60 degrees F. at 95% humidity. That's an AC unit below in the picture, which maintains around 60 degrees in my "cool" indoor mini-greenhouse.
This is most definitely not an oyster mushroom masquerading as Hypsizygus. Its growth is much slower. I'm trying the lower temperature because this is what Hypsizygus tessulatus likes for fruiting. So far, nothing.
BTW, the "B" strain from Aloha seems inferior. Its growth is much slower than "A." Still trying to fully colonize a bag with it.
Anyone have a good idea how to convince this sucker to fruit?
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#16012493 - 03/29/12 06:54 AM (2 months, 1 hour ago) |
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Well if it is anything like H Tess then patience - about 70-80 days inccubation. I have one batch of H Tess that has taken 60 days between flushes!
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Thinking about Growing Gourmet for a living? See if you can afford it!
Mmmm! Goddamn, Jimmie! This is some serious gourmet shit! Usually, me and Vince would be happy with some plain ole Agaricus right, but he springs this serious GOURMET shit on us!
TRADE Looking for a Volvariella Volvacea culture and a commercial pink culture of known origin. Have strong edible strains to trade.
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updates? i dont want this thread to die. the mysteries here are to interesting.
hopefully my H.u patch will start pinning so i can go get some more clones.
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Javadog
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I have not dropped the effort.
My latest isolation of H. u. on agar appear clean.
I have some bird-seed soaking for it, and other species, right now.
I will post results, here, when I can.
Take care,
JD
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#16120184 - 04/21/12 11:55 AM (1 month, 7 days ago) |
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im excited to see that!
any word from you andy and your aloha bag, looking forward to seeing fruit!
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RogerRabbit
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Elm Oysters should be extremely fast. My aloha strain will colonize a sawdust substrate block in about ten to fifteen days, and begin fruiting a week later. It seems my Stamets strain was the same way.
RR
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Terry M
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Elm Oysters should be extremely fast. My aloha strain will colonize a sawdust substrate block in about ten to fifteen days, and begin fruiting a week later. It seems my Stamets strain was the same way.
RR
Do you remember if either had decurrent gills? The genus Hypsizygus as originally described by Singer in 1947 specified that the gills are "adnexed or adnate," but never decurrent. He also describes the spores as globose or subglobose. And in this paper, he also mentions confusion about what Europeans vs. Americans classify as H. ulmarius!
We've been trying to figure out who the real H. ulmarius is in this thread. The wild species appears not to have decurrent gills. I've got Aloha strains A and B, but I've been unable to get strain A to fruit so far, and strain B is so weak that I can't get it to fully colonize a sawdust/wood chip bag.
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#16123537 - 04/22/12 07:35 AM (1 month, 7 days ago) |
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Woodchips? Use sawdust and see if it works better. Supplement with cereal bran and spent coffee grinds.
I don't remember the gills, and I can't grow them any more due to spore allergy to find out. I do remember they were tougher and poor tasting, compared to P ostreatus, thus I didn't stick with growing them too long.
Here's an indoor mini-greenhouse grow I did about 5 years ago.
RR
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6044833#6044833
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Terry M
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Woodchips? Use sawdust and see if it works better. Supplement with cereal bran and spent coffee grinds.
Will try this. I currently use a ratio of 1 part bran to 12 parts sawdust for my all-sawdust bags. Does this sound reasonable? Roughly how much spent coffee grounds would you recommend?
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#16123622 - 04/22/12 08:09 AM (1 month, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
1 part bran to 12 parts sawdust for my all-sawdust bags
That's fine for elm oysters but don't try that much bran with shiitake or you'll grow mutants.
I dump my morning coffee grinds into every substrate daily. You can use coffee grinds if you have them up to about 25% or so to the sawdust.
RR
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jimmyjame1
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rogers grow looks like it has decurrent gills unlike the wild ones. most likely not the real elm oyster.
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Javadog
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Quote:
jimmyjame1 said:
rogers grow looks like it has decurrent gills unlike the wild ones. most likely not the real elm oyster.
LOL, this is clearly the case.
RR, the "Elm Oysters" that I started this thread to expose were
also very strong growers/fruiters. Check out the first page of
posts to see.
Then NSF posted:
Quote:
I hate to break it to you but those aren't Elm Oyster, they are just regular oysters
and the conversation really got going.
We have confirmed that the H. u. photos in Stamets are the decurrent
gill mushroom.
Round we go.
JD
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#16142975 - 04/26/12 02:29 PM (1 month, 2 days ago) |
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For all you fellow amateur taxonomists out there …
I was able to find a key reference that Scott Redhead used in his 1986 paper* which identifies Hypsizygus ulmarius. This is a 1976 paper by Miller and Manning** published in a rare book which I bought for a not unreasonable price.
Here is a scan of some very revealing drawings from that paper.
First of all, the last three species are no longer classified as Pleurotus. Pleurotus used to be a giant catch-all for many species that have since been tossed out of it.
But look at Pleurotis elongatipes – c: basidiospores, and also Pleurotus ulmarius – e: basidiospores. Notice that these are the only spores on the page that are nearly spherical (“subglobose”). It turns out that Pleurotis elongatipes is a synonym for Hypsizygus tessulatus, and of course Pleurotus ulmarius has become Hypsizygus ulmarius.
So now the kinship of members of the genus Hypsizygus becomes clearer! According to Miller and Manning, the P. ulmarius spores are somewhat larger, which you can see pretty clearly in the drawings.
* Mycological Observations 15-16: On Omphalia and Pleurotus, S. A. Redhead, Mycologia, Vol. 78, No. 4 (Jul. - Aug., 1986), pp. 522-528.
** Miller, O. K. and D. L. Manning. 1976. Distribution of the lignicolous Tricholomataceae in the southern Appalachians. Pp. 307-344. In: The distributional history of the biota of the southern Appalachians. Part IV Algae and fungi. Eds. B. C. Parker and M. K. Roane. Univ. Press Virginia, Charlottesville.
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#16143020 - 04/26/12 02:43 PM (1 month, 2 days ago) |
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The scientist wins!
Great stuff Terry. Thanks for sharing that.
(and congrats on a wise book-buy)
Take care,
JD
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#16145924 - 04/27/12 05:13 AM (1 month, 2 days ago) |
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Yep, thanks for posting Terry!
Did we already post a link to that Redhead paper? Anyway, here it can be found:
http://www.cybertruffle.org.uk/cyberliber/59350/0078/004/0522.htm
Too bad that some of us still believe Stamets is always correct and that culture banks as well as DNA sequence libraries have been flooded with misidentified Pleurotus samples since then...
Carsten
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NSF
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#16146018 - 04/27/12 06:25 AM (1 month, 2 days ago) |
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Terry...can you please explain what this means on a macro feature level? Both hypsizygus have large subglobose spores, but i can't see that with the naked eye.
So the decurrent gilled mushroom that JD grew at the start of this thread is more than likely what? A strain of Pleurotus pulmonarius?
On a micro level what have you keyed the decurrent mislabelled species you grew as?
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: NSF]
#16148986 - 04/27/12 08:19 PM (1 month, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
NSF said:
Terry...can you please explain what this means on a macro feature level? Both hypsizygus have large subglobose spores, but i can't see that with the naked eye.
So the decurrent gilled mushroom that JD grew at the start of this thread is more than likely what? A strain of Pleurotus pulmonarius?
On a micro level what have you keyed the decurrent mislabelled species you grew as?
The decurrent gills and the ellipsoidal spores for all the "mock" Hypsizygus ulmarius are consistent with Pleurotus. Don't know, but they could be Pleurotus pulmonarius or P. ostreatus. It might be worth seeing if they are sexually compatible (forming clamp connections) with either of these or other Pleurotus species.
Gills attached to the stem and nearly spherical spores are consistent with Hypsizygus species.
The macro-level decurrent gills and micro-level spore size and shape are independent features which can corroborate the identification. Since the genus Hypsizygus has only two species in it, it should be easy to confirm H. ulmarius. I'm growing out some H. tessulatus as well, so the two can be readily compared.
Regards,
Terry
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Edited by Terry M (04/27/12 08:20 PM)
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#16217277 - 05/11/12 08:53 PM (18 days, 11 hours ago) |
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We have H. ulmarius Aloha A fruit!!
I almost didn't see it because it was on the far side of the bag, and pushed against that side. The gills are definitely not decurrent. Will take a spore print tomorrow and put it under the microscope.
Here is the lengthy timeline:
1/6/12 wedge to grain jar
2/23/12 jar fully grown, to sawdust/wood chip fruiting bag
3/16/12 cut off top of bag and put at 60 degrees F and 95% humidity
5/11/12 fruit!
Will have pics tomorrow, including the spores. BTW, Aloha B was a lost cause. Very slow and weak. I never got as far as trying to fruit it.
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#16217279 - 05/11/12 08:54 PM (18 days, 11 hours ago) |
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I will be waiting anxiously!
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Javadog
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#16218043 - 05/12/12 12:47 AM (18 days, 7 hours ago) |
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Congrats Terry. This is great news.
Eight weeks in fruiting conditions huh....wow. I am glad to know this.
I look forward to more good news.
For my part, I have the "actual" Elm Oysters that JJ sent me (IIRC) on
grains. I believe that I expanded the one quart to a sack of grains.
Other quarts will go to sub sacks in the next week or so.
Carry on,
JD
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#16218431 - 05/12/12 04:07 AM (18 days, 3 hours ago) |
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Yeah, great news, Terry!
Now the tension is killing me, can't wait for tomorrow.
Carsten
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#16220097 - 05/12/12 01:48 PM (17 days, 18 hours ago) |
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I'm still waiting for a good spore print. It's been 7 hours now. 
I'm not disturbing the mushroom cap, but just peeking around the edge of the microscope slide it is suspended over. This mushroom is not fast at dropping spore, like oh, say, an oyster mushroom?
I got this picture of the mushroom before I decapitated it. Ignore the gill color, as the white balance isn't correct. But look at at the gill attachment.
Meanwhile, I've been trying to cut a good thin section of the gills. Failing so far.
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#16220245 - 05/12/12 02:21 PM (17 days, 17 hours ago) |
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Houston, we have attached gills!
Finally!
Thanks for keeping us up to date.
JD
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NSF
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#16221351 - 05/12/12 06:40 PM (17 days, 13 hours ago) |
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What a journey this is! I'm really excited! Terry, you're a marvel, you've put in so much effort and fortunately it's been worth it, with you discovering historical balls ups.
I wonder whether you should write to stamets and let him know? Who knows, he could be working on revised editions of his books. We know he's still selling an inccorectly ID'd product in HUG.
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#16221469 - 05/12/12 07:13 PM (17 days, 12 hours ago) |
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We have spores!
And they look subglobus.
The reticle scale is 1.04 μm per division, so these look like around 4 μm. This is small for H. ulmarius, but not for H. tessulatus.
Here's Redhead's key to the two species.
KEY TO HYPSIZYGUS SPECIES
1. Spores small, 4-5(-6) x 4-5 μm, globose to subglobose; pileus when fresh often guttate-marmorate; basidiomes often cespitose; in North America frequently on Populus sp. and Acer saccharum, occasionally on Betula sp., Ulmus sp., Abies sp., and Fagus sp.
.......................................... H. tessellatus
1. Spores larger, (5-)5.5-6(-7) x 5-5.5(-6) μm, subglobose to broadly ellipsoidal; pileus not guttate, smooth or often areolate with age; basidiomes usually solitary; in North America frequently on Ulmus sp. and Acer negundo L., occasionally on Populus sp. and other Acer sp.
........................................... H. ulmarius
Does anybody see any spores as large as 5 μm?
The micrograph isn't as sharp as it should be. I just realized that this slide is dry mounted! I didn't want to mess up the spores and have them float around in wetting solution or something. But the air would then screw up the index of refraction at 1000x, and render the immersion oil useless. I will prepare a proper slide tomorrow. What should I use, wetting solution followed by my 3% KOH? I've got all the usual microscopy chemicals.
Edited by Terry M (05/12/12 08:35 PM)
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Javadog
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#16222012 - 05/12/12 09:12 PM (17 days, 10 hours ago) |
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Better and better.
I will be happy to see a Hypsizygus. Ulmarius can wait.
(I see spores that are ~ 4 divisions, so they do look larger than
four but none looked to be five divisions.)
I agree that the word about the species confusion needs to be promulgated.
Take care,
JD
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#16223423 - 05/13/12 08:05 AM (16 days, 23 hours ago) |
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OK, here's one at 1000X oil immersion wet mounted with 3% KOH:
Note the cluster of spores stuck together just to the right of the 4 on the scale. Now these look like 5 micron, considering the cell wall. So the H. tessulatus was probably a red herring.
BTW, does anybody know why my 1000X pics aren't nearly as sharp as other peoples' micrographs here? I'm focusing as sharply as I possible can. I've got a Zeiss Standard 14 which was in top shape, adjusted by a trustworthy seller. Am I doing something wrong? Does the microscope need calibration or adjustment of some sort? The seller did careful adjustments and it was packed so well it was gorilla-proof. Need better 100X objective? Did I buy a lemon? Any expert help would be appreciated.
EDIT: It's plenty sharp at other powers, so it must be my 100X objective. May have wrecked it by not cleaning immersion oil well enough off of it? I was afraid of too vigorous cleaning, even with camera lens paper (which I always used dry -- no solvents). Gotta buy a new (old) 100X Zeiss with phase contrast.
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Edited by Terry M (05/13/12 09:32 AM)
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Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#16224044 - 05/13/12 10:48 AM (16 days, 21 hours ago) |
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Isn't the bright halo around the spores just an optical artefact and shouldn't be counted? Without it I see spores with a diameter of 3 - 4 microns. Maybe the scale correction factor of 1.04 is not as correct as we think it is and should be verified by looking at something with a known constant diameter? However, identification between H.u. and H.t. by spore diameter appears unreliable to me, due to the overlapping size ranges.
Cap size might be more enlightening. What was the diameter?
Carsten
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#16224142 - 05/13/12 11:09 AM (16 days, 20 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Mycelio said:
Isn't the bright halo around the spores just an optical artefact and shouldn't be counted? Without it I see spores with a diameter of 3 - 4 microns. Maybe the scale correction factor of 1.04 is not as correct as we think it is and should be verified by looking at something with a known constant diameter? However, identification between H.u. and H.t. by spore diameter appears unreliable to me, due to the overlapping size ranges.
Cap size might be more enlightening. What was the diameter?
Carsten
Cap size is 5cm x 3.5 cm.
As for the halo, I was thinking the same thing. Which is why I purposely chose a clump of spores stuck together! There won't be any distance between them, so the half width of the halo split between two adjacent spores in the clump can be considered part of the nearer spore.
As for the scale factor, I verified its correctness yesterday since I wanted to double-check. I have a microscope slide graticule just for this purpose, and the number is right.
Regards,
Terry
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#16224235 - 05/13/12 11:37 AM (16 days, 20 hours ago) |
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Thanks, I should have expected you to double check the scale.
Counting half the halo sounds reasonable, but I think we still have to wait for a cap, being 10 - 15 cm in diameter to be absolutely sure about H.u.
Carsten
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#16224248 - 05/13/12 11:40 AM (16 days, 20 hours ago) |
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Here is a picture of said cap, hopefully depositing some more of its spores on another microscope slide.
I would like to send this slide to someone here who is an experienced microscopist, and also has a microscope which is sharp at 1000X. Just give me your address, and foolproof instructions on how I can have this slide of spores sent to you without damaging the spores (Tape a second glass slide on top? I don't know.)
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#16224765 - 05/13/12 01:03 PM (16 days, 18 hours ago) |
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i have a pretty good 100x oil optic
heres my alt 7 spores at 1000X
i could take a whack at it if nobody else more experienced chimes in.
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#16236174 - 05/15/12 04:41 PM (14 days, 15 hours ago) |
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In order to see the cell walls better, I stained the original slide with Congo Red. Here are the results:
 
It appears from the cropped picture that the spores probably average 4.5 microns. Of course, this is not a statistically valid sampling. But it does make the Aloha A strain look more like H. tessulatus!
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#16238787 - 05/16/12 06:06 AM (14 days, 1 hour ago) |
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Yes, but Redhead must have looked at collections with large spores, while many other authors just copied his numbers.
I know of a local H. ulmarius, which had spherical spores in the range of 4-4.5 x 4-4.3 µm. You can see two images here at the bottom of the first post:
http://www.pilzepilze.de/cgi-bin/webbbs/parchive2010.pl?noframes;read=195137
In my opinion, color and cap diameter (13cm) of this one should rule out H. tessulatus.
Carsten
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#16238905 - 05/16/12 06:50 AM (14 days, 1 hour ago) |
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quote]Mycelio said:
Yes, but Redhead must have looked at collections with large spores, while many other authors just copied his numbers.
I know of a local H. ulmarius, which had spherical spores in the range of 4-4.5 x 4-4.3 µm. You can see two images here at the bottom of the first post:
http://www.pilzepilze.de/cgi-bin/webbbs/parchive2010.pl?noframes;read=195137
In my opinion, color and cap diameter (13cm) of this one should rule out H. tessulatus.
Carsten
Here's another picture I took today after realigning the Köhler illumination.
Growing a big cap is going to be tough since I've had difficulty fruiting at all. But I've got 5 Hypsizygus (2 H. tessulatus, 3 H. ulmarius strains) growing into grain masters, each of which will generate 4 bags. The H. ulmarius are Aloha A and B (though B is extremely weak), and the wild New York strain. Will try my best!
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#16238979 - 05/16/12 07:18 AM (14 days, 44 minutes ago) |
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This looks much better than before!
Regarding fruiting, please keep the next bags closed until you see mushrooms, then it should work fine.
Carsten
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Terry M
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Registered: 06/18/10
Posts: 800
Loc: Rhode Island
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#16239006 - 05/16/12 07:28 AM (14 days, 35 minutes ago) |
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Quote:
Mycelio said:
Regarding fruiting, please keep the next bags closed until you see mushrooms, then it should work fine.
Will do, Carsten!
Thanks, as always.
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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