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 jimmyjame1
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 Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15411834 - 11/23/11 05:48 AM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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great work Terry
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Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15411965 - 11/23/11 06:55 AM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Hi Terry,
the incompatibility may not prove that much. Aversion can be a hint for two species, but not all strains within one species have to be compatible, especially as yours are all dikaryotic.
As you say, a lacking zone of inhibition is also no hard proof of different species. I had contaminations by Pleurotus 'H.u.' spores, taking over Agaricus and Cordyceps cultures without any visible sign.
Clamp connection will be a proof only if you pair monokaryotic mycelia from single spore isolates, like in the cited document. All your samples should be dikaryotic, already having clamp connections.
Anyway, it is still very interesting to see how they react.
Slower growth should be a hint for Hypsizygus, but again no hard proof.
Whenever you use spawn to inoculate something, just check the smell of the empty spawn jars. I found the odor to be quite different between Hypsizygus and Pleurotus species.
Cheers, Carsten
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Mycelio]
#15412029 - 11/23/11 07:23 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mycelio said:
Clamp connection will be a proof only if you pair monokaryotic mycelia from single spore isolates, like in the cited document. All your samples should be dikaryotic, already having clamp connections.
I realize that there will be lots of clamp connections. But I'm planning to move the slide and trace two clamped hyphae back closer to their roots, where they will be in one culture, the other culture, or both cultures.
Edited by Terry M (11/23/11 07:25 AM)
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15412094 - 11/23/11 07:49 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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I meant "plate" and not "slide." I'm used to thinking about slides on a microscope stage, not plates!
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Mycelio
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15412122 - 11/23/11 07:58 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Alright, now I get it. You will be looking for traces of anastomosis in your plates. I hope the situation in there is not too chaotic and you can spot them!
Carsten
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 Javadog
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15412173 - 11/23/11 08:18 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Hey Terry,
Good stuff.
First:
"First of all, this test is taking a while because Aloha strains are slower growers on agar than the rest, which are pretty fast. This is a tip-off already."
I understand. I have found Pleurotis to be a relatively colonizer,
and suppose the H. ulmaris is slower.
Then:
"However most of the other cultures have, and and the mycelia mixed without any zone of aversion."
So, the early results are that the Aloha subject is truly H. u. whereas
the other three species are the same, and are not H. u.
Did I follow you?
Take care,
JD
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Myco-tek.org
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15412275 - 11/23/11 08:51 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Javadog said:
Hey Terry,
Good stuff.
First:
"First of all, this test is taking a while because Aloha strains are slower growers on agar than the rest, which are pretty fast. This is a tip-off already."
I understand. I have found Pleurotis to be a relatively colonizer,
and suppose the H. ulmaris is slower.
Then:
"However most of the other cultures have, and and the mycelia mixed without any zone of aversion."
So, the early results are that the Aloha subject is truly H. u. whereas
the other three species are the same, and are not H. u.
Did I follow you?
Take care,
JD
Yes. But this is just an early result, and will need more evidence. Not proof by any means, but this observation is consistent with this. Hopefully, I will get some genetic evidence from examining the clamp connections under a microscope.
However in biology, some people believe that genetics can establish a difference in species. [If they can interbreed, and if so, whether or not the offspring are fertile. The situation is more complicated with mushrooms!] Others believe that morphological comparison defines a species. I'll do morphological comparison as well, once I have fruit bodies to examine and compare with descriptions in the literature.
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Javadog
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15412280 - 11/23/11 08:53 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Terry M said:
Quote:
Javadog said:
Hey Terry,
Good stuff.
First:
"First of all, this test is taking a while because Aloha strains are slower growers on agar than the rest, which are pretty fast. This is a tip-off already."
I understand. I have found Pleurotis to be a relatively colonizer,
and suppose the H. ulmaris is slower.
Then:
"However most of the other cultures have, and and the mycelia mixed without any zone of aversion."
So, the early results are that the Aloha subject is truly H. u. whereas
the other three species are the same, and are not H. u.
Did I follow you?
Take care,
JD
Yes. But this is just an early result, and will need more evidence. Not proof by any means, but this observation is consistent with this. Hopefully, I will get some genetic evidence from examining the clamp connections under a microscope.
However in biology, some people believe that genetics can establish a difference in species. [If they can interbreed, and if so, whether or not the offspring are fertile. The situation is more complicated with mushrooms!] Others believe that morphological comparison defines a species. I'll do morphological comparison as well, once I have fruit bodies to examine and compare with descriptions in the literature.
Right. A prime indicator will be whether the gills are decurrent.
Good luck!
JD
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Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15414895 - 11/23/11 07:36 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Here are the genetic compatibility test results.
Nothing tested was compatible wilh Aloha A. Everything else was compatible with each other. Also, Aloha A is compatible with Aloha B. But we can't conclude that Aloha B will behave just like Aloa A for compatibility, because we can't assume commutativity.
To be added to this test are a Ralph strain in a syringe, which I am growing out now. And Out-Grow is sending me a culture as well. I will add these to the matrix once I've done the testing. And I'm growing out all 7 of these cultures for morphological analysis.
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EvilMushroom666
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15414918 - 11/23/11 07:41 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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I am more then willing to measure and photograph any spore samples to help
out when the time comes  .
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Javadog
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Right on guys. Thanks for keeping the ball rolling.
I was reading through GGMM this evening, and I confirmed
that that tome describes H. ulmaris as having decurrent gills.
In that same book, H. tessulatus has a gill-stipe connection that
looks much more like what we have been expecting.
I am not sure that I will even look as the two Hypsizygus species
in that book. The nomenclature will make your head swim. Not only
is there the general confusion about H. u. but the names seem to
have been traded about, going from one genus to another.
I have a print of what we think is H. u. from JJ and have already
put some on agar. I should have a fruits to show for it before Christmas.
Take care,
JD
--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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HorizonSpawn
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15415104 - 11/23/11 08:26 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Terry, awesome work!... The Myco-community is in your debt 
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Please assume any and all prints exchanged are "WILD" in nature; and thus, should NOT be considered ASEPTIC...
NOTE: Please excuse my brevity, as it is a bitch 'n' a half and slow as hell to type on this here phone 
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Terry M
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I've got the compatibility results for the 4 strains tested so far. "+" means compatible, and "—" means not compatible.
Aloha A Ralph P Shroom MP
Aloha A
Ralph P —
Shroom — +
MP — + +
I'll be getting a culture from Out-Grow, and have just finished growing out a syringe culture from Ralph, which may or may not be the same. I will add these two to the compatibility matrix when I've tested them.
I'll try to get some photographs of these before I open them and examine them with the microscope. I'll probably only have one day to do each plate, as they'll certainly get contaminated once I take the covers off. I want phase contrast to be an option for viewing them, so I need to wait until I've learned how to do phase contrast microscopy! Meanwhile, the plates are in the fridge.
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Edited by Terry M (11/24/11 05:40 AM)
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15416411 - 11/24/11 06:12 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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I just took some plate photos.
Note the "zone of aversion" set up between incompatible strains.
Edited by Terry M (11/24/11 06:17 AM)
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Javadog
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15416759 - 11/24/11 08:34 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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"zone of aversion" Yes, those photos do tell the tale, and well.
Great work!
JD
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Javadog
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15416797 - 11/24/11 08:44 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Javadog said:
Check out Ralphsters H. ulmaris page:
http://www.ralphstersspores.com/USA/product_info.php?cPath=10&products_id=365
Isn't this the same not-H.u. that I started this thread to display?
P.S. I just wondered....did anyone check this link? You can see on
the stipes that Ralph's H.u. has the decurrent gills.
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Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
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jimmyjame1
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15416818 - 11/24/11 08:51 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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>.< oh no!
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LOVE PEACE AND BEAUTIFUL MUSIC.
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Javadog]
#15416942 - 11/24/11 09:28 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Javadog said:
"zone of aversion"
I actually got that term from a mycology paper!
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Obsessed with edibles all my waking hours.
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CH HELL
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: Terry M]
#15417092 - 11/24/11 10:14 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Terry M said:
I just took some plate photos.
Note the "zone of aversion" set up between incompatible strains.
I am liking the idea here Terry. This "zone of aversion" you are talking about is better to be seen from the bottom of a petri dish when the plates are grown out more. I wouldn't use this as a definitive ID because this zone happens often with same strains it just show they are not from the same 'area' but still could be the same species.
I can help with microscopy or even fruiting these if you want. I already have the cultures(except I only have one Aloha which could be A or B).
Keep it up and Happy Thanksgiving!
CH
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Terry M
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Re: Elm Oysters [Re: CH HELL]
#15417158 - 11/24/11 10:38 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
CH HELL said:
I wouldn't use this as a definitive ID because this zone happens often with same strains it just show they are not from the same 'area' but still could be the same species.
Yes. Here is a pretty cool table from the paper by N. A. Anderson, S. S. Wang, and J. W.Schwandt, 1973. "The Pleurotus Ostreatus-Sapidus Species Complex," Mycologia 65: 28-35.
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