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 Mycelio
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 Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: RogerRabbit]
#15052227 - 09/09/11 07:30 AM (8 months, 16 days ago) |
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Time for an update...
Using ziplock freezer bags for the fermentation turned out not to be as bulletproof as it first appeared to me. Most of my grain experiments failed, due to excessive yeast growth. Straw alone and straw with coffee grounds and alfalfa did work, with added grain there was always more yeast than in buckets, but the substrate was still usable and mold resistant. Adding sawdust seemed to reduce mold resistance.
Out of some unknown reason, the plastic aged pretty fast. Upon using the bags a second or third time, they all developed little holes.
Generally, there seems to be some air exchange through the plastic, not much, but often enough to support opponents of the lactic acid bacteria.
The oyster bag I showed on May 23rd refused to fruit all the time, as well as most of the other non fermented ones, inoculated with the same strain. As there were already algae growing and springtails munching, I almost gave up on this experiment, but fortunately, after some rainy days and cold nights it looks like this today:
Now I am curious about the yield, though I do not expect too much after such a long time.
Carsten
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falcon
In the green
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#15054011 - 09/09/11 03:21 PM (8 months, 15 days ago) |
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Nice work, good to see some success. 
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: falcon]
#15067439 - 09/12/11 10:51 AM (8 months, 12 days ago) |
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Just harvested them. The weight of that cluster was 285g, where only 15g had to be cut away. The rest fries in the pan right now and smells delicious.
The block initially had 1715g with a dry matter content of about 460g (grain and everything included), so BE was ca. 62%, which I consider to be OK, but I've seen much better first flushes on similar mixtures of fermented substrates without any grain.
Carsten
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ILBIACCO
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#15086115 - 09/16/11 05:35 AM (8 months, 9 days ago) |
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You're working hard and so you deserve these rewards. Well done!
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I've been waiting for her for so long
Open the sky and let her come down
Here comes the rain
Here she comes again
I love the rain
Rain Rain Rain
(The Cult)
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ManicMongrel
Certified Bullsh*tter
Registered: 03/14/11
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#15117929 - 09/22/11 02:52 PM (8 months, 2 days ago) |
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Impressive work man!
Does the fermented substrate mix well with other additives like dung, compost, coffee ground or straw?
I made a fermentation mix with dung, wheat bran, coffee and straw a few months back. I had no problems with mold even though I added both spores and mycelia from green mold in one jar just to test the contam vulnerability. The panaeolus I added grew fiercely though I couldn't get it to fruit. I'm suspecting it was because the pan tissue was too old, could be that the strain need lower pH to fruit also. One tray got infected but, with another dung mushroom. The substrate worked well in the sense that it didn't seem to favor molds but dung fungi loved it.
I'm fermenting wheat bran at the moment, going to see how it works as an additive.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: ManicMongrel]
#15119534 - 09/22/11 07:12 PM (8 months, 2 days ago) |
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Thanks! I prefer to ferment all ingredients together. Mixing fermented and unfermented ingredients should destroy the beneficial effect. Materials like sawdust can be added (which I did after the fermentation started), but are problematic, as they don't contain enough simple carbohydrates to feed the fermenting microbes and neutralize the lactic acid. Anything rich on nitrogen (like dung or manure) is even worse and might favor unwanted species like Clostridium botulinum. Please be careful and stay away from using if you notice a too strong smell of butyric acid.
Have a look at Falcons initial experiments with Bacillus subtilis, which might be a better option for high-N substrates.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11951155#11951155
Carsten
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Lennybernadino
Amazon grower
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#15119906 - 09/22/11 08:18 PM (8 months, 2 days ago) |
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Hmm I just got given my Kambucha culture yesterday after years of wanting one, I think some experimentation with it is warrented, bye the way my fermented grain trials all turned green, and of the three species only the oysters showd signs of growth before the Green took over .
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Mycelio
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Oh, I'm sorry you lost so much grain!
I shouldn't have posted about using zip lock bags before trying often enough to be sure.
Carsten
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Lennybernadino
Amazon grower
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#15122314 - 09/23/11 10:38 AM (8 months, 1 day ago) |
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I gave up on the plastic bags after something kept chewing them, but all the jars I used got contaminated, maye here it is just too ht ad the fermentation gets out of control .
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Biffzilla
Emperor of Bongolia
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Lennybernadino]
#15176595 - 10/04/11 11:52 AM (7 months, 21 days ago) |
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I love this thread.
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- Show me the honey -
===================================================================
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sof4r0ckeRs1984
Alice and Bob
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#15195337 - 10/08/11 09:05 AM (7 months, 18 days ago) |
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THAT'S THA WAY TO GO!!!! 
ALL CAPS RAGE CELEBRATION TIME HAHAHA!!!
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The Horrors... Really bad example of dosage, set and setting.
[quote]starfire_xes said:
Don't worry about being ugly. Beauty is only skin deep.
Ugly goes all the way to the bone....
[/quote]
Tired of PF-Tek? Swwerts Whole Brown Rice Cakes Pictorial
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Biffzilla
Emperor of Bongolia
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what the fuck do you mean, you rabid thing, lol?
which way is that?
man, i aint trollin, i love ya too and ya enthusiasm but, mm, i dont understand what u mean?.
sof4r0ckeRs1984
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===================================================================
- Show me the honey -
===================================================================
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Biffzilla]
#15196864 - 10/08/11 03:54 PM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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He answered the very first post.
Regarding the usability for cubes, I just made an addition at the bottom of that fist post.
Carsten
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sof4r0ckeRs1984
Alice and Bob
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#15199285 - 10/09/11 07:12 AM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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Yes, that was exactly it.
Carsten, I didn't have enough time to read through the whole thread so I thought I might just ask two questions:
1) Did you check BRF with cubes yet?
2) If you use straw do you add molasses? (Because I read somebody say that molasses are important with EM and plant material)
--------------------
The Horrors... Really bad example of dosage, set and setting.
[quote]starfire_xes said:
Don't worry about being ugly. Beauty is only skin deep.
Ugly goes all the way to the bone....
[/quote]
Tired of PF-Tek? Swwerts Whole Brown Rice Cakes Pictorial
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Mycelio
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No and no.
Carsten
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 mycelial
WA11A! !
Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 85
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#15207351 - 10/10/11 07:03 PM (7 months, 15 days ago) |
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This is... AMAZING! This is the closest to natural process growing Ive seen, and I feel its definitely a method that deserves way more notice and research. Soon as me labs made I will be experimenting with fermentation methods. Keep up the fantasmigor-nessss!
(seriously, in love with this)
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They seemed to be staring at the dark, but their eyes were watching God.
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ltetr085
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: mycelial]
#15272419 - 10/24/11 05:05 PM (7 months, 1 day ago) |
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Hi Carsten,
Thanks for posting this. I tried to replicate your experiment with wild bird seeds and some of my own sourdough. Worked exactly like you said in the first post, although things went a bit faster : I put half a teaspoon of sourdough in each jar and put them in the oven with the light on (for warmth), the same as for bread making. It started bubbling maybe six hours after that. I left them about a week and the smell was nice, reminded me a little bit of white beer (like Leffe).
The composition of the WBS is : cut corn, wheat, white and red millet, sunflower seeds and milo.
Oyster mycelium is colonizing vigorously; I'd like to try other species but for now I have nothing else ready.
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Locoinsaino
Still Learning
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: ltetr085]
#15281610 - 10/26/11 02:26 PM (6 months, 30 days ago) |
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This is awe-some. I've been looking to restart some Oyster projects. I've only got some blue oysters now but would like to try pinks and/or kings.
So you've found this technique of fermenting grain/wbs to be most efficacious on oysters?
and as far as additives, they should be introduced a few days to a week after grains are already bubbling/fermenting?
Also (sorry just trying to understand a little clearer) it was suggested that a smaller "batch" of fermenting grains or straw or whatever should be started and then some of that material and/or water can be added to a 5 gal bucket with a larger amount of substrate?
I've just spent the past 45 minutes reading the majority of this post and pieces of some referents herein; I must say that this is some really neat alchemy kinda shit.. Thanks for the idea and inspiration.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Locoinsaino]
#15282930 - 10/26/11 07:23 PM (6 months, 30 days ago) |
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Thanks, guys!
Good to know that you both start experimenting with oysters, which - together with kings - perform best at a very low PH.
Quote:
Locoinsaino said:
So you've found this technique of fermenting grain/wbs to be most efficacious on oysters?
Well... it has its pros and cons. Fermenting grain or substrate takes a week or two, plus colonization takes longer, but it doesn't require any heat treatment or sterile methods.
Quote:
Locoinsaino said:
and as far as additives, they should be introduced a few days to a week after grains are already bubbling/fermenting?
Some substrate additives can slow down fermentation, neutralize lactic acid or favor unwanted microbes. As I usually work without adding a starter culture, I wait with the critical supplements until the lactic acid fermentation is well established.
Quote:
Locoinsaino said:
Also (sorry just trying to understand a little clearer) it was suggested that a smaller "batch" of fermenting grains or straw or whatever should be started and then some of that material and/or water can be added to a 5 gal bucket with a larger amount of substrate?
Yes, this way you know your material ferments well under the given conditions and by using a starter culture you will save a day or two on the large batch. BTW: For the first try, better stay small.
Carsten
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ZOMan
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#15306215 - 10/31/11 09:08 PM (6 months, 25 days ago) |
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WOW! I just finished reading this entire thread and I'm excited about this process! I've started several grains and straw using an EM starter. I'll post pics and procedures as it continues.
Thanks for all the info and insight.
It's always good to have options and this could be useful in a low tech situation if needed.
ZOM
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