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 OrgoneConclusion
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 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered
#15195904 - 10/08/11 11:50 AM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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article
So much for second sight and warnings from dead ancestors. It turns out that shamanic visions are only in your head and do not come from another realm.
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 LegitStupidity
The Hunter in Training
Registered: 06/12/11
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Very sad, but to what you said about the visions is a a stereotype. They don't see into whatever future they choose, it is whatever is shown by their ancestors. There are also different types of shamans who focus only on learning and understanding the energy around us.
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OrgoneConclusion
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So the ancestors wanted them to die? Did they need a fourth to play bridge or were they just lonely?
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LegitStupidity
The Hunter in Training
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Who said any of that?
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OrgoneConclusion
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Shamans allegedly practice their craft for wisdom and protection. They obviously got neither.
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LegitStupidity
The Hunter in Training
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Shamans allegedly practice their craft for wisdom and protection. They obviously got neither.
Definition of wisdom: The quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment; the quality of being wise.
As for protection, I have never heard of that. I just know that they have a vast knowledge of plants and medicinal values of plants of the rain forest. Hence the other name of Medicine man, maybe your misconception of their "protection".
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"A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in."
The Beginning of an Addiction
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Experiences: LSA, Marijuana
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OrgoneConclusion
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Gee, why would I fabricate such a fantasy?
Shamanic healing is based on the idea that there are spirits. That is, non-physical entities that seem to be conscious, and that it's possible for some people to interact with them. In Shamanism, the specially skilled person (called the shaman) travels in trance to the worlds where the spirits live, with the mission of getting help or information, for healing his or her clients and the whole community. In particular, there are compassionate spirits that have an interest in helping humans reduce the load of suffering in this world. The shaman learns where in the spirit worlds to find these compassionate spirits, and develops a partnership with them for this work.
ShamanElder.com: A Shaman keeps a bubble of protection around him or herself at all times.
Shamanista.com: Some people seem to have protection almost automatically, perhaps because it was built in to their early training without much/any discussion, and they learned to put up protection without consciously thinking of it.
Sometimes protection seems to be inherent in a person’s character, karma, or personality, but it still is best to know how to do protection consciously. Everyone needs to know how to respond to unusual situations, teach those who need protection how to get it, and so on.
In indigenous cultures protection is likely to be built into shamanic practice, so that it doesn’t have to be discussed or learned separately. But for modern Europeans and Americans, brought up in a dualistic, materialist culture, such practices are generally not automatic. They are not traditional for us, and so we have to adopt and use them consciously.
Protection is like any other skill. First you have to learn how, and then it takes conscious, systematic practice until it becomes automatic.
BodySpiritAwareness.com: Spiritual Healing
Shamanic healing is almost always done in close partnership with the shaman's helping spirits. The shaman relies on these compassionate spirits for information, guidance, power, and protection. The spirits rely on the shaman as a physical intermediary and compassionate helper, and often make use of traditional healing methods explained below.
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Cups
technically "here"
Registered: 12/24/09
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Awww, it's nice to see you having a good day OC.
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OrgoneConclusion
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 Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Cups]
#15196182 - 10/08/11 12:57 PM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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I spent $1500 on a protective amulet, now I have to watch my back!
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Cups
technically "here"
Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,924
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
I spent $1500 on a protective amulet, now I have to watch my back!
You should have bought...
....wait for it...
...the watch! 
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No more words of wisdom.
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LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,766
Loc: Sugar Town
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
I spent $1500 on a protective amulet, now I have to watch my back!
I went to Shaman U. Cost me a lot in tuition but now I am working a full time job.
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Don't worry be happy.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
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Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: LunarEclipse]
#15196315 - 10/08/11 01:33 PM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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You still at the drive-thru window?
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LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,766
Loc: Sugar Town
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
You still at the drive-thru window?
No but I am still the Booger King.
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Don't worry be happy.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
article
So much for second sight and warnings from dead ancestors. It turns out that shamanic visions are only in your head and do not come from another realm.
Who'd a thunk?
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15196360 - 10/08/11 01:43 PM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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Only 90% of trippers under the age of 24.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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I plan on selling them real-estate. 
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15196376 - 10/08/11 01:47 PM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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There is a guy online who has made over a million selling real estate on the moon and another has made a fortune naming stars after customers. I hear the asteroid field is wide open still.
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LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
There is a guy online who has made over a million selling real estate on the moon and another has made a fortune naming stars after customers. I hear the asteroid field is wide open still.
Many will pay for even a little ass ter oid.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: LunarEclipse]
#15196420 - 10/08/11 01:57 PM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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Keep trying. The day is still young and you might score one before sundown.
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LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,766
Loc: Sugar Town
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Keep trying. The day is still young and you might score one before sundown.
OK Slim.
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Sly Stone
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 595
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It's just spiritual downsizing.
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
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Quote:
LegitStupidity said:
us.
getting a little bold with the claim of being a shaman, huh?
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flickedbic
Sojourner
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I don't think he was claiming to be a shaman; only that the shamans claim to work with the energy around "us".
What if he did say he was a shaman? Maybe his definition of shaman is "one who wears shoes."
Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines a shaman as:
"a priest or priestess who uses magic for the purpose of curing the sick, divining the hidden, and controlling events."
Would one be in line with this definition if using seemingly magical ally plants for divining the hidden truths within and without? I would say so.
I don't think one needs to live in the jungle to be a shaman.
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
Edited by flickedbic (10/08/11 03:51 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15196845 - 10/08/11 03:48 PM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,262
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15197222 - 10/08/11 05:30 PM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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....hidden ....truths?
do you mean hallucinations and delusions caused by consuming a psychoactive substance?
and if his definition of shaman is "someone who wears shoes" and he thinks that makes him a shaman, i am the fucking emperor of the world, nay, universe.
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flickedbic
Sojourner
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Quote:
....hidden ....truths?
do you mean hallucinations and delusions caused by consuming a psychoactive substance?
No those hallucinations can be and delusions are fool's gold.
One must throw one's realizations against the wall when sober and see what sticks.
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
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rainx
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic] 3
#15197689 - 10/08/11 07:02 PM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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I'm disappointed at the members' responses to this outrage in Peru. The mass murder of shamans is an atrocity that should not be belittled or made into an amusement. These are our spiritual brothers and sisters. No one is immune from being murdered, shaman or not.
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"The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna" is best source of insight into the self, universe, and the entheogen catalyzed experience. Forward by Aldous Huxley.
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic] 1
#15197706 - 10/08/11 07:06 PM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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you have no idea how bad i want to continue to press my opinion on your opinion but you seem like a nice guy so i'll let it go.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: rainx]
#15197809 - 10/08/11 07:29 PM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
rainx said:
I'm disappointed at the members' responses to this outrage in Peru. The mass murder of shamans is an atrocity that should not be belittled or made into an amusement. These are our spiritual brothers and sisters. No one is immune from being murdered, shaman or not.
Death is funny, what ya gonna do.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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detest86
Psychonaut
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15197851 - 10/08/11 07:37 PM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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So there are still people that believe in witches today. The uneducated countries need to be nuked.
edit: nuke lol
Edited by detest86 (10/08/11 07:38 PM)
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Icelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: detest86]
#15197859 - 10/08/11 07:39 PM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
detest86 said:
So there are still people that believe in witches today. The uneducated countries need to be nuked.
edit: nuke lol
I agree, lets start with America.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: detest86]
#15197940 - 10/08/11 07:56 PM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
The uneducated countries need to be nuked.
Incoming!
Quote:
you have no idea how bad i want to continue to press my opinion on your opinion but you seem like a nice guy so i'll let it go.
You are too kind. 
I understand psychedelics can be seen as basically induced psychosis however I feel dreams are similar; and what is good and true can be gleamed from about any experience: as truth is reality is now and that is what one's experiences are; parts of the now-true reality.
One's reality-tunnel changes again when the induced psychosis wears off; back to a more "functional" level for survival. That does not mean that the near psychotic episode was only a random, delusional experience with no useful connections to "waking life" and existence.
At the very least; they can remind one of the things that are truely important in one's life; even if they may do this at times thru the process of potentially very stressfull, seemingly Near Death Experience type phenomenon.
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
Edited by flickedbic (10/08/11 08:07 PM)
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LegitStupidity
The Hunter in Training
Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 243
Loc: 352
Last seen: 4 months, 6 days
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
ShamanElder.com: A Shaman keeps a bubble of protection around him or herself at all times.
Shamanista.com: Some people seem to have protection almost automatically, perhaps because it was built in to their early training without much/any discussion, and they learned to put up protection without consciously thinking of it.
Sometimes protection seems to be inherent in a person’s character, karma, or personality, but it still is best to know how to do protection consciously. Everyone needs to know how to respond to unusual situations, teach those who need protection how to get it, and so on.
In indigenous cultures protection is likely to be built into shamanic practice, so that it doesn’t have to be discussed or learned separately. But for modern Europeans and Americans, brought up in a dualistic, materialist culture, such practices are generally not automatic. They are not traditional for us, and so we have to adopt and use them consciously.
Again, I see no where in here that supports your argument, the "protection" is of unusual situations that keep them safe from internal changes. Not at all relevant to death, which was the prior argument. Almost everything you posted supported mine, healing using natural items and a wiser sense of thinking.
--------------------
"A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in."
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detest86
Psychonaut
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15198518 - 10/08/11 10:58 PM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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First America, then, THE WORLD !
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
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Being murdered = being protected?
You have to do serious word-raping to make that even seem like it makes sense.
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yeah
Registered: 02/07/09
Posts: 353
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
article
So much for second sight and warnings from dead ancestors. It turns out that shamanic visions are only in your head and do not come from another realm.
yet another conclusion you reach without using logic!!!
I found this link just in the 2nd thread I viewed today in this forum: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
I believe the universe guided me to it to make things easier for me.
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I hope this is the dark part of the night which is generally just before day.
Edited by yeah (10/09/11 02:32 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: yeah]
#15198916 - 10/09/11 02:48 AM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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I believe the universe guided me to it to make things easier for me.
I see your belief and raise you one belief.
I believe I'm the ruler of the universe and all women are mine. 
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detest86
Psychonaut
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15198997 - 10/09/11 04:06 AM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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women dont really have that much value...wait nevermind they suck dick.
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zzripz
Stranger
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: detest86]
#15199017 - 10/09/11 04:17 AM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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I dont know which is most horrible--the OP using this story to justify his obvious allegiance to scientific materialism, and/or Christianity, or the terrible story itself!
Quote:
He alleged that the mayor, who is an evangelical Christian, ordered the killings on hearing that the shamans planned to form an association. He said the mayor's brother was known in the area as a matabrujos or witch killer.
"For Protestant sects, the shamans are possessed by the devil; a totally sectarian, primitive and racist concept," he said.
Shamans in the Peruvian Amazon use psychoactive plants such as the jungle vine ayahuascafor spiritual ceremonies. As early as the 16th century, Spanish and Portuguese missionaries described its use by native people in the Amazon as the work of the devil.
Well THIS I can dig. The fukin Christians up to their old tricks. On one hand pretending to represent a god of love, and a hack saw/gun (take your pick) in the other, ready to torture and murder any 'competition' to their nasty cult!!
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crkhd
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15199043 - 10/09/11 04:37 AM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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If you holdQuote:
Icelander said:
I believe the universe guided me to it to make things easier for me.
I see your belief and raise you one belief.
I believe I'm the ruler of the universe and all women are mine.
--------------------
SHABOOM
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,262
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15199219 - 10/09/11 06:41 AM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
flickedbic said:
Quote:
you have no idea how bad i want to continue to press my opinion on your opinion but you seem like a nice guy so i'll let it go.
You are too kind.
I understand psychedelics can be seen as basically induced psychosis however I feel dreams are similar; and what is good and true can be gleamed from about any experience: as truth is reality is now and that is what one's experiences are; parts of the now-true reality.
One's reality-tunnel changes again when the induced psychosis wears off; back to a more "functional" level for survival. That does not mean that the near psychotic episode was only a random, delusional experience with no useful connections to "waking life" and existence.
At the very least; they can remind one of the things that are truely important in one's life; even if they may do this at times thru the process of potentially very stressfull, seemingly Near Death Experience type phenomenon.
Blessings.
you replied so im going to reply.
-dreams hold no meaning in the real world except for maybe the fact that while dreaming you see things and feel emotions associated with those things. for example, last night i had a dream that i was living in the same home with my mom again and what do you know, i wanted to kill her again for some reason. shes fine when shes in another state but i cant stand being in the same house as her for more than a few hours.
i also had a dream last night that i was running through a huge muddy field and came upon an abandoned home that was literally rotting. when i went inside i found tons of old possessions and began to take them. in the process of taking things like jewelry some little girl walked into the house and started complaining that her grandmother had just died and they hadnt cleaned out the house yet. i told her she was full of shit and proceeded to point out that the house was literally falling apart because it hadnt been touched in so long. i looked out the window and saw a bunch of cars pulling up to the house through the field so i opened the door and began to run away.
i dont think either of those dreams represent real life scenarios since i no longer live with my mom. and i dont run around in fields finding old homes and take shit out of them. dreams are just about as random as psychedelic trips. if you want i can list quite a few more dreams ive had in the past and you will see exactly why the only thing in the dream that is "real" is the emotion felt when seeing or experiencing something that you experience in real life.
psychedelic trips are actually much less pertinent to real life just for that very reason. not once have i seen huge geometric patterns and fractals or entities staring down at me through the top of cages in my normal day to day life. not once have i felt like i am one with the rocks in my day to day life. all those feelings and visions come from the fact that you have put chemicals into your body and let loose the flood gates of neurotransmitters and your brain is struggling to figure out what the hell is going on.
-"as truth is reality is now"- im not following this logic
-"One's reality-tunnel changes again when the induced psychosis wears off"- im not sure your psychosis has worn off yet, youre making scatterbrained points which hold no actual weight. try to bring some concrete ideas together in a coherent way so i can pick apart what youre trying to say better. right now all im stuck with is: " what is this guy trying to get across?"
i think youre well on youre way to sounding like some burnt out old man just like terrence mckenna. keep it up. maybe eventually you can trick a bunch of deluded children into following you around and listening to you ramble about complete nonsense.
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,262
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15199223 - 10/09/11 06:43 AM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
flickedbic said:
Quote:
....hidden ....truths?
do you mean hallucinations and delusions caused by consuming a psychoactive substance?
No those hallucinations can be and delusions are fool's gold.
One must throw one's realizations against the wall when sober and see what sticks.
Blessings.
been doing this for a while.
none of it sticks. im still the same old person i was prior to pumping myself full of substances except for the fact that i know what its like to do those substances.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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i dont think either of those dreams represent real life scenarios
I agree. However these dreams may represent your feelings about certain events or emotional landscapes in your current or past experience. While dreams are often completely random imo they are not always so.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
Edited by Icelander (10/09/11 07:43 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
SamuelLJackson said:
Quote:
flickedbic said:
Quote:
....hidden ....truths?
do you mean hallucinations and delusions caused by consuming a psychoactive substance?
No those hallucinations can be and delusions are fool's gold.
One must throw one's realizations against the wall when sober and see what sticks.
Blessings.
been doing this for a while.
none of it sticks. im still the same old person i was prior to pumping myself full of substances except for the fact that i know what its like to do those substances.
Now generally I'm a skeptic when it comes to what psychedelics can do but I'm far from sure they have no real effect on ones life path. For instance I still remember my first LSD trip of 40 years ago. I can remember sitting on my front porch steps and looking up and down my block and having the realization that these people were all trapped in a form of insanity and were calling me to join. This included my parents who were fundamental christian abusive nut jobs. I never realized that I was not the problem in total before. I set it in my mind that day to escape. Of course I found out later that escape isn't really possible but it did set a new course of effort and awareness for my life. I really doubt I would have had the same adventures that finally brought me here without that experience. In fact I believe I would be in prison or a suicide had I not had that a several other psychedelic experiences. From a psychological perspective they were profound and life changing imo. That does not mean everyone would have such a result.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Humility
Working on it
Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 4,845
Last seen: 4 hours, 34 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15199805 - 10/09/11 10:01 AM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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X
Edited by Humility (10/09/11 10:02 AM)
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Humility
Working on it
Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 4,845
Last seen: 4 hours, 34 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15199809 - 10/09/11 10:02 AM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
-dreams hold no meaning in the real world except for maybe the fact that while dreaming you see things and feel emotions associated with those things. for example, last night i had a dream that i was living in the same home with my mom again and what do you know, i wanted to kill her again for some reason. shes fine when shes in another state but i cant stand being in the same house as her for more than a few hours.
I stopped reading at "no meaning in the real world".
How could you possibly know that? You're so full of it.
Like rainx said, this thread is a display of really embarrassing behavior. Then again, it's just you living your life.
Lol murder by being chopped to death is funny enough for me to joke about from behind my keyboard lol.
Grow up.
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,262
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Humility]
#15199817 - 10/09/11 10:04 AM (7 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Humility said:
Quote:
-dreams hold no meaning in the real world except for maybe the fact that while dreaming you see things and feel emotions associated with those things. for example, last night i had a dream that i was living in the same home with my mom again and what do you know, i wanted to kill her again for some reason. shes fine when shes in another state but i cant stand being in the same house as her for more than a few hours.
I stopped reading at "no meaning in the real world".
How could you possibly know that? You're so full of it.
cool. provide a counter point if you believe it so strongly.
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Humility
Working on it
Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 4,845
Last seen: 4 hours, 34 minutes
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I don't even need to bother. Your supposition is logically flawed.
There's no way you could know, or even reasonably assume that "dreams hold no meaning in the real world".
You are doing nothing but subjectively characterizing the experience. You may as well be talking about how the color red makes you feel.
Dreams mean different things to different individuals. Different dreams involve different situations and scenarios. Some are prophetic for some people, some aren't.
I make this inference from my own experience with dreams and from what I've heard others puport (which I assume to be the truth in at least some percentage of cases).
If YOU have never had a dream that was prophetic in nature that's fine. You can make the assumption that perhaps *you* will never have such an experience, but to make the assumption that NO ONE has EVER had such an experience is simply fallacious.
You aren't working with logic and reasoning.
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,262
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Humility]
#15199851 - 10/09/11 10:13 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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"i dont even need to bother because i cant provide an actual example" is all i got from that post.
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Humility
Working on it
Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 4,845
Last seen: 4 hours, 34 minutes
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Life must suck when you don't reason/contemplate logically. Makes you go through a lot of hubub that isn't necessary.
You walk down roads that lead to dead ends because you're constantly looking at your feet.
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,262
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Humility]
#15199869 - 10/09/11 10:17 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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 ok.
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LegitStupidity
The Hunter in Training
Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 243
Loc: 352
Last seen: 4 months, 6 days
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Shamans allegedly practice their craft for wisdom and protection. They obviously got neither.
Prior argument. ^
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Being murdered = being protected?
You have to do serious word-raping to make that even seem like it makes sense.
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"A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in."
The Beginning of an Addiction
Trade list
Experiences: LSA, Marijuana
To look forward to: Mushrooms, MDMA, LSD, Peyote, DMT
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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For those unfamiliar with the English language or how to use a dictionary:
Protection is the state of being guarded or shielded from exposure, injury, damage, or destruction.
Being murdered is generally considered a form of injury. To say otherwise is serious word-raping.
Anything else you need help with?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Humility
Working on it
Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 4,845
Last seen: 4 hours, 34 minutes
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I need help with why you believe "being a shaman" has anything at all to do with self-protection for the body in this realm?
Of all the things one could ask for, it's perhaps the least important.
You're looking at shamanism like some sort of spiritual shield from people-on-people violence in this realm. That may be what spiritual activity is used for in some respects but "shamanism" is just as much intended to teach the shaman that death is a natural occurrence of life. Some people die of old age, some are chopped to death with machetes.
Every spiritual healer has different intentions and works with different spirits. You're making incorrect assumptions and generalizations.
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Cups
technically "here"
Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,924
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Quote:
SamuelLJackson said:
i think youre well on youre way to sounding like some burnt out old man just like terrence mckenna.
Watch it Mace, or I might have to get all Skywalker on that shit. 
As for the part about pyschedelics not affecting long term change in the people who take them....that makes no sense.
At a most basic level who "you" are currently is heavily influenced by the experiences "you" have had. So this whole sentence here-
Quote:
im still the same old person i was prior to pumping myself full of substances except for the fact that i know what its like to do those substances
Makes no sense IMO.
Furthermore there are myriads of people on here who will swear and give references to how their lives have improved after taking shrooms...and on the flip side of that coin there are plenty of posts in the mental health section asking for help when they got worse.
So all in all I must now give you the finger wag. 
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No more words of wisdom.
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LegitStupidity
The Hunter in Training
Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 243
Loc: 352
Last seen: 4 months, 6 days
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
For those unfamiliar with the English language or how to use a dictionary:
Protection is the state of being guarded or shielded from exposure, injury, damage, or destruction.
Being murdered is generally considered a form of injury. To say otherwise is serious word-raping.
Anything else you need help with?
Your point is irrelevant, the protection they are talking about there is a protection of your inner self, not of physical being. I can tell now you are just replying to be right. Sorry for offending you, have a nice day. 
--------------------
"A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in."
The Beginning of an Addiction
Trade list
Experiences: LSA, Marijuana
To look forward to: Mushrooms, MDMA, LSD, Peyote, DMT
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Cups
technically "here"
Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,924
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Quote:
LegitStupidity said:
I can tell now you are just replying to be right.
Who'd ever do that in a debate forum.
That's just fucking crazy! 
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No more words of wisdom.
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,262
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Cups]
#15200235 - 10/09/11 11:40 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Cups said:
At a most basic level who "you" are currently is heavily influenced by the experiences "you" have had. So this whole sentence here-
Quote:
im still the same old person i was prior to pumping myself full of substances except for the fact that i know what its like to do those substances
Makes no sense IMO.
well, when you can tell me in what fundamental way my life has been changed by taking drugs you come back here and tell me about it and i'll give it some more thought. but as far as i can tell i am on the same exact path i was prior to doing drugs. and dont even try to pull some crap like "well you wouldnt be on this forum right now" because that is akin to attributing who i am as a person to the fact that i bought one pair of shoes as opposed to another because i would be wearing the other shoes had i bought them instead.
as for the people whose lives are fundamentally altered by these substances, i personally view it as a weak will. if i really wanted to im sure i could give in to the nonsense i experience on drugs. hell, i even gave it a shot once. i gave up drugs for 2 weeks after a "spiritual experience" on 2c-e and after those 2 weeks realized that it was total nonsense and went back to my old ways.
i think its fairly amusing that people take something they feel while on a drug and put that in action in their real life when in their real life they never made the same connection or experienced the same feeling.
for example: on drugs i often feel the supposed connectedness of everything. strangely enough, i never feel that when i dont have a ton of hallucinogens coursing through my veins. thus, i dont run around spouting that we are all one being subjectively experiencing its self as if its fact.
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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Quote:
youre making scatterbrained points which hold no actual weight... i think youre well on youre way to sounding like some burnt out old man just like terrence mckenna.
-SamuelLJackson
You say so; it appears others think differently.
Just because one's reality tunnel changes when dreaming or tripping; does not make it a false experience; only a different one than usual.
Sure we don't usually see giant faces peering into our cages... many don't "see" the cages that are imprisoning them... as these are not literal bars of iron and steel. They are social constructs; for example.
Quote:
dreams hold no meaning in the real world except for maybe the fact that while dreaming you see things and feel emotions associated with those things...the only thing in the dream that is "real" is the emotion felt when seeing or experiencing something that you experience in real life.
Dreams and trips can change sometimes subconscious ideas/feelings into visuals/archetypal images/stories for interpretation by those who might care to do so... and can carry "hidden truths"; true feelings hidden and repressed or forgotten by the individual.
Othertimes; dreams and psychedelic experiences can seem to be very basic; like making love with beautiful women in dreams... or seemingly non-sensical.
However, if one feels compelled to "make sense" of EVERY dream and experience by looking for "the hidden truths": then one might be in danger of wasting ones' time. The message is often right on the surface (eg: I want to make love to sexy women) OR there is no specific message at all; and one's brain is just enjoying wonderous feelings and/or making a light-show.
Quote:
im still the same old person i was prior to pumping myself full of substances except for the fact that i know what its like to do those substances.
I happen to believe that we are shaped by our experience (nurture), and even our physical brain formation adapts to suit and facilitate the experiences that we repeat often... but to each their own.
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
Edited by flickedbic (10/09/11 12:47 PM)
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,262
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15200585 - 10/09/11 12:56 PM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
flickedbic said:
Quote:
youre making scatterbrained points which hold no actual weight... i think youre well on youre way to sounding like some burnt out old man just like terrence mckenna.
-SamuelLJackson
You say so; it appears others think differently.
well, if you want to take this debate out of the context of the forum, many more people side with me than with you and the rest of the "shamans" or "hippies" or whatever you like to refer to yourselves as.
take this:
Quote:
Just because one's reality tunnel changes when dreaming or tripping; does not make it a false experience; only a different one than usual.
and go tell that to people on the street. tell me how many of them laugh at you.
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,340
Last seen: 15 hours, 33 minutes
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
article
So much for second sight and warnings from dead ancestors. It turns out that shamanic visions are only in your head and do not come from another realm.
Damn that sucks. There goes a lot of interesting unwritten history.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Humility]
#15200823 - 10/09/11 01:44 PM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Humility said:
Life must suck when you don't reason/contemplate logically. Makes you go through a lot of hubub that isn't necessary.
You walk down roads that lead to dead ends because you're constantly looking at your feet.
This response says nothing worthwhile in this debate. It's a personal attack and nothing more. 
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Sly Stone
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 595
Loc: Never get out of the boat
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15200831 - 10/09/11 01:46 PM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Humility said:
Life must suck when you don't reason/contemplate logically. Makes you go through a lot of hubub that isn't necessary.
You walk down roads that lead to dead ends because you're constantly looking at your feet.
This response says nothing worthwhile in this debate. It's a personal attack and nothing more.
This response says nothing worthwhile in this debate. It's a personal attack and nothing more.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Sly Stone]
#15200861 - 10/09/11 01:50 PM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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No it's not a personal attack. It's a statement of fact. I have nothing against the poster nor am I angry.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Quote:
LegitStupidity said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
For those unfamiliar with the English language or how to use a dictionary:
Protection is the state of being guarded or shielded from exposure, injury, damage, or destruction.
Being murdered is generally considered a form of injury. To say otherwise is serious word-raping.
Anything else you need help with?
Your point is irrelevant, the protection they are talking about there is a protection of your inner self, not of physical being. I can tell now you are just replying to be right. Sorry for offending you, have a nice day.
A dead person has no inner self as it has been destroyed. Keep trying though...
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This is your drain on brugs.
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Sly Stone]
#15200896 - 10/09/11 01:56 PM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
on drugs i often feel the supposed connectedness of everything. strangely enough, i never feel that when i dont have a ton of hallucinogens coursing through my veins.
Ever hear of quantum entaglement?
Speak of it to the man on the street he may laugh...
Speak of it to a physicist and you may have a good convo...
Just because something is ridiculed does not make it incorrect; in fact, in my experience, that is usually the step before acceptance.
COMMON "NEW INFORMATION" ASSIMILATION PROCESS OF THE MAN ON THE STREET:
Step 1. Ignore.
Step 2. Ridicule.
Step 3. Accept as self-evident.
This is an especially common treatment of new info/ideas that challenge the common "reality tunnels"/ Maps of the World of the individuals in question.
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
Edited by flickedbic (10/09/11 02:10 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15200914 - 10/09/11 02:01 PM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Homeopathy:
Step 1. Refute.
Step 2. Ridicule.
Step 3. Ignore.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,262
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15200957 - 10/09/11 02:11 PM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
flickedbic said:
Quote:
on drugs i often feel the supposed connectedness of everything. strangely enough, i never feel that when i dont have a ton of hallucinogens coursing through my veins.
Ever hear of quantum entaglement?
Speak of it to the man on the street he may laugh...
Speak of it to a physicist and you may have a good convo...
Just because something is ridiculed does not make it incorrect; in fact, in my experience, that is usually the step before acceptance.
fortunately quantum entanglement has physical evidence supporting it, unlike the suggestions you keep making in this thread.
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Sly Stone
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 595
Loc: Never get out of the boat
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1. Collect Underpants
2. ?
3. Profit
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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Quote:
fortunately quantum entanglement has physical evidence supporting it
...as well as your experiences while in altered states.
Blessings.
P.S.: A growing body of research evidence that homeopathic medicines have clinical effects:
http://www.homeopathy-soh.org/research/evidence-base-for-homeopathy-2/evidence-base-for-homeopathy/
Just thought it was interesting.
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All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
Edited by flickedbic (10/09/11 02:36 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Sly Stone]
#15201061 - 10/09/11 02:32 PM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Sly Stone said:
1. Collect Underpants
2. ?
3. Profit
Soiled J Lo's are fetching upwards of $1500.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,262
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15201075 - 10/09/11 02:35 PM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
flickedbic said:
Quote:
fortunately quantum entanglement has physical evidence supporting it
...as well as your experiences while in altered states.
Blessings.
P.S.: A growing body of research evidence that homeopathic medicines have clinical effects:
as for my experiences in an altered state, i dont see any physical evidence that i am one with the rocks or that i am the result of some cruel experiment undertaken by beings outside of this plane of existence.
yea. sugar pills have effects too. its called a placebo.
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,340
Last seen: 15 hours, 33 minutes
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are you suggesting we understand placebo?
I often see people say "ya, placebo!" as if that means something.
I haven't seen anything that suggests we know wtf is going on with placebo.
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Cups
technically "here"
Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,924
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Quote:
SamuelLJackson said:
well, when you can tell me in what fundamental way my life has been changed by taking drugs you come back here and tell me about it and i'll give it some more thought.
While I do appreciate you acknowledging my psychic abilities, for the sake of argument let's pretend like I didn't even know you existed until earlier this morning.
How am I supposed to hop into your mind and tell you that precisely? That's your job.
An observation- I don't know what you thought before you started taking the drugs...but judging solely from this thread it would seem that your experiences have convinced you that they have no "real world" applications and that people who believe they do are "weak willed" morons.
That would seem to be a direct result of your experiences IMO.
Quote:
SamuelLJackson said:on drugs i often feel the supposed connectedness of everything. strangely enough, i never feel that when i dont have a ton of hallucinogens coursing through my veins. thus, i dont run around spouting that we are all one being subjectively experiencing its self as if its fact.
So as a thought experiment- What do you think would happen if one day you did have a full blown Unity experience off drugs, sitting on your couch? 
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No more words of wisdom.
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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Yea sugar-pills they work great. Richard Bandler tried to create a product called PLACEBO that worked better than whatever medicine for whatever ailment 50% of the time! 
(Paraphrasing)
I feel the "placebo effect" is a tribute to the power of the mind.
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,262
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Kickle]
#15201114 - 10/09/11 02:42 PM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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nowhere in my post did i say that.
it still doesnt negate the fact that the placebo effect exists.
you cant attribute the medicinal properties of a "medicine" that doesnt even contain any molecules of the original medicine in a dose to that "medicine". if homeopathic medicine works than i should be able to go dilute down some tabs of acid until there are zero molecule of acid in each dose and still trip my ass off when i take the extremely dilute liquid.
if you want, ill bet you $50 that it doesnt work, but only because i would like compensation for wasting my doses just to prove it.
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,340
Last seen: 15 hours, 33 minutes
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Quote:
SamuelLJackson said:
nowhere in my post did i say that.
it still doesnt negate the fact that the placebo effect exists.
you cant attribute the medicinal properties of a "medicine" that doesnt even contain any molecules of the original medicine in a dose to that "medicine". if homeopathic medicine works than i should be able to go dilute down some tabs of acid until there are zero molecule of acid in each dose and still trip my ass off when i take the extremely dilute liquid.
if you want, ill bet you $50 that it doesnt work, but only because i would like compensation for wasting my doses just to prove it.
See. You have a fixed idea of what placebo is. The literature suggests there is no fixed definition. Placebo is a catch-all phrase for a treatment that works despite expected requirements and more and more treatments and effects get lumped into it all the time. There is record of a placebo surgery, a placebo brain surgery for Parkinson's disease, that resulted in the same effects as an actual brain surgery. There is no readily available explanation for it. It defies what we know about the brain. It isn't chemical as the structure needed to release the chemicals is damaged and resulting in Parkinson's. And after the placebo surgery the area is still damaged. The behavioral change noticed is unexplained.
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2,296
Loc: Chasing the dragon
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Quote:
SamuelLJackson said:
Quote:
flickedbic said:
Quote:
fortunately quantum entanglement has physical evidence supporting it
...as well as your experiences while in altered states.
Blessings.
P.S.: A growing body of research evidence that homeopathic medicines have clinical effects:
as for my experiences in an altered state, i dont see any physical evidence that i am one with the rocks or that i am the result of some cruel experiment undertaken by beings outside of this plane of existence.
yea. sugar pills have effects too. its called a placebo.
I don't think all altered states are useless, but I do believe it's placebo. I don't mind experiencing placebos, as long as they're free. Psychadelics aren't, but if you get what you are paying for, then it's a very fun placebo.
I remember someone posting this song on the shroomery. It feels on topic.
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,262
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Kickle]
#15201208 - 10/09/11 02:59 PM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
See. You have a fixed idea of what placebo is. The literature suggests there is no fixed definition. Placebo is a catch-all phrase for a treatment that works despite expected requirements and more and more treatments and effects get lumped into it all the time.
i did not know of those examples but had you told me about them i would have called them placebo.
you assumed my only idea of placebo was sugar pills. or if you were speaking based upon my acid bet, that was aimed at disproof of homeopathic medication actually working by legit means. sure, maybe it works via placebo. i never suggested it didnt. me knowing that the dilute acid contains no acid removes the placebo effect and puts the focus on the fact that homeopathic medicines are supposed to work because they contain "remnant vibrations" from the molecules which used to be present.
neat stuff on the surgeries though.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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In the Good Friday Experiment, half of the people were given psilocybin and half were given niacin which causes short-term flushing. Despite the placebo effect, only those given psilocybin tripped.
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This is your drain on brugs.
Edited by OrgoneConclusion (10/09/11 05:38 PM)
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Sly Stone
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 595
Loc: Never get out of the boat
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I ate white paper and didn't trip.
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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Quote:
me knowing that the dilute acid contains no acid removes the placebo effect and puts the focus on the fact that homeopathic medicines are supposed to work because they contain "remnant vibrations" from the molecules which used to be present
Are tadpoles effected by placebo?
Also I'm not sure your explanation of homeopathic medicine is correct (tho I'm sure there are many explanations):
Quote:
As yet, science has not been able to explain the mechanism of action of ultra high dilutions in the body, but laboratory experiments have repeatedly demonstrated that homeopathically prepared substances cause biological effects. For example, the hormone thyroxine prepared as a homeopathic ‘30C’ dilution can slow down the process of metamorphosis of tadpoles into frogs.1
...
One theory is that during the production of a homeopathic medicine, the dilution and agitation processes cause an interaction between the original material (e.g. a plant such as Belladonna) and the water and alcohol it is mixed with. This creates tiny new structures (nanostructures) which are the ‘active ingredient’ and remain present even when the sample has been diluted many, many times.2
-http://www.homeopathy-soh.org/about-homeopathy/what-is-homeopathy/
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,340
Last seen: 15 hours, 33 minutes
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I didn't mean to be so hostile I just get worked up about placebos
another interesting factoid is that antidepressants are having a harder and harder time of making it through clinical trials because placebo effects are growing. Simultaneously there are studies that suggest American's are becoming more and more confident in pharmacology as an effective mental health treatment.
So our belief in pharmacology is increasing and the effectiveness of placebo pills is increasing. Perhaps suggesting a link between the degree of belief and the degree of effect. Who knows what healers in other cultures could accomplish just based on belief. If the placebo surgery is any indicator, a whole lot.
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Humility
Working on it
Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 4,845
Last seen: 4 hours, 34 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15201315 - 10/09/11 03:13 PM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Humility said:
Life must suck when you don't reason/contemplate logically. Makes you go through a lot of hubub that isn't necessary.
You walk down roads that lead to dead ends because you're constantly looking at your feet.
This response says nothing worthwhile in this debate. It's a personal attack and nothing more.
Your eyes aren't open enough, oh wise one.
It all makes perfect sense, and it isn't a personal attack. Sam made a comment about a phenomenon that cannot possibly be proven true (Dreams having no significant relation to the real world). I stated as much in retort. Sam went on to restate his point/not make a point while passive-aggressively requoting me in a fashion that did not elaborate on the argument.
I went on to state that Sam isn't using logic to reason and argue and that that's a sad way to live life. Truthfully I believe logic and reason have limits but I think that this matter falls well within those limits.
The last thing in the world I am is angry. I feel pity for you both. You're going in circles and I can only imagine that it hurts and is confusing because I've been there.
But I wish you the best all the same
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2,296
Loc: Chasing the dragon
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Kickle]
#15201335 - 10/09/11 03:15 PM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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So our belief in pharmacology is increasing and the effectiveness of placebo pills is increasing. Perhaps suggesting a link between the degree of belief and the degree of effect. Who knows what healers in other cultures could accomplish just based on belief. If the placebo surgery is any indicator, a whole lot.
That's why I experiment with certain spiritual practices. They're fun and I believe they work placebo or not. 99% of those practices are crap IMO. I discard those. Even the ones I like are often interpreted in a way I don't agree with, but I do them nonetheless.
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,262
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Kickle]
#15201351 - 10/09/11 03:17 PM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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well, if the career in research on psychedelics falls through i might just make a medicine called "rememdiumal" which is "cure" in latin with "al" strapped to the end.
it will contain some inactive ingredient and i will list it as the active ingredient, sell that crap as the cure for everything, and reap the profits.
@flickedbic - that would make the dilute acid work too. i'm still not convinced.
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Kickle]
#15201373 - 10/09/11 03:22 PM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Are peoples experiences/lives effected by their reality-tunnels/Map of the World?
I think PLACEBO shows this to be so. Beyond this; It has been proven that our intentions can influence reality in the Stanford random-number-generator mind-influence experiments.
Quote:
@flickedbic - that would make the dilute acid work too. i'm still not convinced.
Hehe; if it gets tadpoles high; it might be worth a shot  Just find a cool Holistic pharmacy:
Quote:
Homeopathic medicines (which homeopaths call remedies) are prepared by specialist pharmacies using a careful process of dilution and succussion (a specific form of vigorous shaking).
-from the same site as quoted above.
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
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Cups
technically "here"
Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,924
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Everybody got a response but me. 
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No more words of wisdom.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Humility]
#15201515 - 10/09/11 03:52 PM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Humility said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Humility said:
Life must suck when you don't reason/contemplate logically. Makes you go through a lot of hubub that isn't necessary.
You walk down roads that lead to dead ends because you're constantly looking at your feet.
This response says nothing worthwhile in this debate. It's a personal attack and nothing more.
Your eyes aren't open enough, oh wise one.
It all makes perfect sense, and it isn't a personal attack. Sam made a comment about a phenomenon that cannot possibly be proven true (Dreams having no significant relation to the real world). I stated as much in retort. Sam went on to restate his point/not make a point while passive-aggressively requoting me in a fashion that did not elaborate on the argument.
I went on to state that Sam isn't using logic to reason and argue and that that's a sad way to live life. Truthfully I believe logic and reason have limits but I think that this matter falls well within those limits.
The last thing in the world I am is angry. I feel pity for you both. You're going in circles and I can only imagine that it hurts and is confusing because I've been there.
But I wish you the best all the same
And your eyes are mostly closed to yourself. At least in this post you gave your reasons for disagreement rather than attack on the person debating. Maybe that's a tiny bit of growth for you.
I don't feel any pity for you. I expect this nonsense from the average bloke on the street.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,262
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Cups]
#15201519 - 10/09/11 03:53 PM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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i dont know how to respond to you. the first part of your post, which follows the first quote, comes across as a statement.
the second part, which follows the second quote, comes across too vague.
what is "a full blown unity experience"?
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Cups
technically "here"
Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,924
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15201525 - 10/09/11 03:55 PM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Hey don't knock street people Ice. They are apparently super reliable.
Quote:
SamuelLJackson said:
and go tell that to people on the street. tell me how many of them laugh at you.
Motherfucker
(It really does make most every sentence better if you throw that on the end.)
Motherfucker.
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No more words of wisdom.
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Cups
technically "here"
Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,924
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Quote:
SamuelLJackson said:
i dont know how to respond to you. the first part of your post, which follows the first quote, comes across as a statement.
You said they haven't impacted you, I said IMO they had and gave you my reasoning. I would expect that you could agree/disagree with my observation.
Quote:
SamuelLJackson said:the second part, which follows the second quote, comes across too vague.
what is "a full blown unity experience"?
I'm referencing whatever you were describing in the quote as what you are able to feel on drugs but not off of them. To recap-
Quote:
on drugs i often feel the supposed connectedness of everything. strangely enough, i never feel that when i dont have a ton of hallucinogens coursing through my veins
What if you did one day? Feel this without drugs I mean. Would you take it more seriously or write it off? There's no right or wrong I am just curious.
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No more words of wisdom.
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,262
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Cups]
#15201566 - 10/09/11 04:08 PM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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ah, thank you for the clarification.
i didnt bother responding directly to the first part because as stated earlier i don't feel my life is any different after having taken psychedelics.
as for the second thing, well, i dont know. i doubt it will ever happen though. if it does i'll likely call 911 and get a psychiatric evaluation because i know thats associated with drug use and if im not on drugs and feel like im on drugs that means something has gone horribly wrong.
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Cups
technically "here"
Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,924
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Seems sad to be so closed off to things...so sure of how things are. You must have an incredibly strong ego structure to seal it all up like that.
Quite likely a good thing from most POVs. Certainty is IMO the best antidote to terror.
Still I can't help but think of the classic zen story.
Quote:
Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.
Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.
The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"
"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"
You may have heard a similar line in Avatar. (ripped off Zen in ripped of Dances w/Wolves)
Been cool meeting you Samuel...Motherfucker!
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No more words of wisdom.
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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Does
Quote:
i'll likely call 911 and get a psychiatric evaluation because i know thats associated with drug use and if im not on drugs and feel like im on drugs that means something has gone horribly wrong.
=
If I feel connected to everything (while not on drugs) something has gone horribly wrong?
If so than some would say something is wrong already; If you agree that there is scientific evidence backing up quantum entaglement: but feel that being acutely/cognitively aware of this unity is somehow "wrong" unless drugs are involved...
However I may have a dog in this fight because I myself have occasionally strongly experienced that unity at times while sober, even for months; and don't have the cash for the psychiatric evaluation.
Drug me; I feel connected with the universe!
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
Edited by flickedbic (10/09/11 04:50 PM)
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,262
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15201744 - 10/09/11 04:49 PM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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well, im not accustomed to being delusional unless im on drugs, so yea i would say something has gone wrong if i literally feel like i am one with the universe and im not on drugs. maybe youre used to being delusional all the time, cool, have at it; i did state earlier that your psychosis seemed to be rather prevalent, flickedbic.
im not sure you grasp the concept of quantum entanglement anyway, based upon that last statement.
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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Drug me; I realize I AM the universe.
I realize it is not popular view; seeing everything as interwoven energy.
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
Edited by flickedbic (10/09/11 04:59 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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I agree. If one is honest they will have to acknowledge the feeling of separateness as a physical reality. Now one can "think" they are connected to everything but that's something very different. I think I'm connected to everything myself but I definitely feel like a separate entity most all the time.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,262
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic] 2
#15201784 - 10/09/11 04:58 PM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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if you are suggesting that quantum entanglement says that everything is interwoven energy, you really dont have the slightest clue what quantum entanglement is.
i suggest this book.
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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Have you read that book? I'm a little perplexed why you would recommend it on the subject of quantum entanglement because in the Amazon reviews I read this:
Quote:
Well, one quibble about content - as far as I could find, there is no treatment of entanglement, which is the main reason I opened the book. Isn't that a pretty important area of quantum physics?
-Learner
http://www.amazon.com/Quantum-Physics-Dummies-Steven-Holzner/product-reviews/0470381884
I added a short vid to my previous comment re: quantum entaglement.
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,262
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15201887 - 10/09/11 05:25 PM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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no i haven't read it. i just found it fitting.
maybe if you look beyond crappy youtube videos you will see why you and that video are wrong. hell, i spent 5 minutes looking this stuff up and i know that video is wrong. but i guess youre a qualified physicist after that youtube video and are worthy of a degree in quantum physics. i of course wont claim that i am, but i took more time to research the topic at hand than watching a 1 minute video.
heres another cool thing to think about, a lot of real scientific theory is blown out of proportion for TV and videos like that on youtube to catch the interest of people and make money.
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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I apologize if I have offended you...
I have heard it often said that "sensationalism sells"; and think it wise to take things with a grain of salt.
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
Edited by flickedbic (10/09/11 05:47 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Sly Stone]
#15201949 - 10/09/11 05:39 PM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Sly Stone said:
I ate white paper and didn't trip.
Michaal Jackson used White Out by the case.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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Nice signature OrgoneConclusion.
It reminds me of what is sometimes said: that ones' enemy is really ones' greatest teacher.
I think it a good example also of what the plant allies can do... is that what Swami was referring to or is that just coincidence?
Blessings.
PS: Done any work with Orgone energy? Interesting story; that of Wilhelm Reich...
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All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
Edited by flickedbic (10/09/11 06:02 PM)
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Samurai Drifter
Wandering Mindfuck
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 5,042
Loc: Frosted
Last seen: 1 day, 21 hours
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15202933 - 10/09/11 09:29 PM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
flickedbic said:
I think PLACEBO shows this to be so. Beyond this; It has been proven that our intentions can influence reality in the Stanford random-number-generator mind-influence experiments.
That hasn't been proven at all. In fact those experiments were widely criticized based on their poor statistical analysis and methodology...
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The obstacle is the path.
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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Quote:
In praising the work of the Princeton Engineering Anomalous Research (PEAR) Laboratory on ESP and PK, McTaggart did not mention that a major discovery of the lab was that their random number generators (RNGs) were found to drift off random by themselves.
Thank you for the heads up on the Princeton tests.
I did a version of the water intention test; the Masaru Emoto Rice test.
This rice I seperated evenly into 3 containers; writing "Love" on one, nothing on the controll, and "Hate" on the third.
I spoke the words with true feeling; "I love you" to the Love rice, "I hate you" to the Hate rice; while ignoring the controll.
I got the same results shown in the youtube videos where people have done this... The Love rice stayed white; the control had a bit of mold growth; and the Hate rice turned black.
This is supposedly an intention experiment but since I was vocalizing at the rice also perhaps that played a role. I would be interesting in re-trying without words. I only ran the experiment one time: so there is the possibility of contaminants getting into the Hate rice...
Interesting related article and audio from Dr. Carla Hannaford
http://www.peaceburgh.net/articles/are-our-minds-entangled
Her new book "Playing in the Unified Field" has a Foreword by physicist William A Tiller, who was featured in the popular film, “What the Bleep Do We Know?" and is currently Professor Emeritus at Stanford University.
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15203587 - 10/10/11 12:33 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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If you could do that under controlled conditions and supervision, you would win a million dollars from JREF. Most people would rather be poor and unknown than claim the prize so that they can keep the fantasy alive. Perhaps you will be different.
BTW, Emoto (aka Mr. Roboto) is a fucking moron.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15203616 - 10/10/11 12:42 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Interesting related article and audio from Dr. Carla Hannaford
http://www.peaceburgh.net/articles/are-our-minds-entangled
Really, this is the route you want to take?
Are Our Minds Entangled?
Carla Hannaford
A quantum physicist explains the scientific proof of telepathy and other psychic phenomena. She says we're not "psychic," we're "entangled." Also enjoy this wide-ranging conversation with the author.
Absolutley nothing interesting here to the educated. First off, one does not 'explain a (non-mathematical) proof'. Nowhere in science is this done. One must DEMONSTRATE (or gather) EVIDENCE before even attempting to figure out the possible mechanism. This is as silly as explaining why unicorns only mate under rainbows.
Now you are going to drag out 'What the Bleep do We Know?' movie, a thoroughly debunked piece of trash? Really? Why not add 'The Secret' to the heap of nonsense?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15203628 - 10/10/11 12:47 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
In one groundbreaking study, quantum physicist, Amit Goswami, demonstrated that the phenomenon of quantum entanglement occurs between people as well as subatomic particles. He ran some experiments in which pairs of people were asked to meditate together for a period of time to establish “entanglement". Each pair was then separated over a large distance (often over 2,000 miles) and hooked up to EEG machines. One of the pair of meditators was rigged with an apparatus that would flash a red light in his eyes. Whenever the light flashed in the "target" meditator's eyes, the EEG pattern would change, and at exactly the same moment, the distant meditator's EEG pattern would also change in exactly the same way. There is no way that the conventional view of reality can explain such results.
Peer reviewed? No.
Replicated? No.
Worth as an experiment? Zero.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2,296
Loc: Chasing the dragon
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This is as silly as explaining why unicorns only mate under rainbows.
What's so silly about that?
Rainbows are aphrodisiacs. True story. 
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Bad example... 
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This is your drain on brugs.
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2,296
Loc: Chasing the dragon
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How so? 
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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It is common knowlege.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2,296
Loc: Chasing the dragon
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For a second there I thought you were accusing me of not being awesome. And then you posted that and I was like of course I am. True story.
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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Samurai Drifter
Wandering Mindfuck
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 5,042
Loc: Frosted
Last seen: 1 day, 21 hours
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Quote:
SamuelLJackson said:
well, when you can tell me in what fundamental way my life has been changed by taking drugs you come back here and tell me about it and i'll give it some more thought. but as far as i can tell i am on the same exact path i was prior to doing drugs. and dont even try to pull some crap like "well you wouldnt be on this forum right now" because that is akin to attributing who i am as a person to the fact that i bought one pair of shoes as opposed to another because i would be wearing the other shoes had i bought them instead.
as for the people whose lives are fundamentally altered by these substances, i personally view it as a weak will. if i really wanted to im sure i could give in to the nonsense i experience on drugs. hell, i even gave it a shot once. i gave up drugs for 2 weeks after a "spiritual experience" on 2c-e and after those 2 weeks realized that it was total nonsense and went back to my old ways.
i think its fairly amusing that people take something they feel while on a drug and put that in action in their real life when in their real life they never made the same connection or experienced the same feeling.
for example: on drugs i often feel the supposed connectedness of everything. strangely enough, i never feel that when i dont have a ton of hallucinogens coursing through my veins. thus, i dont run around spouting that we are all one being subjectively experiencing its self as if its fact.
There's a big difference between thinking that drugs have led you to the ultimate truth of all everything, and having experiences that change your life or your perspective. I'm absolutely certain that psychedelics can give you the latter. A heavy trip is an extremely psychologically intense experience that can alter your outlook as radically as a vacation, a car crash, a book/work of art, or any other memorable event in your life.
You may not have had your outlook on the world changed by psychedelics, but that is not true of everybody, and that doesn't make people who have had life-changing trips "weak-willed" anymore than anyone else who changes because of a psychologically intense event.
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The obstacle is the path.
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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...so Mr Jackson, you goin all ghetto on us HUH?
I cannot help when I am reading people's posts to also be aware of the avatars they choose, and pics and sayings. Yours is showing black faces, and the big one is of a youth with a pretty hard bitten arrogant face. some kid who has been abused and would abuse you to survive given the chance. Now--is you sayin that psychedelic healing wouldn't help him? That he would laugh at such a suggestion...?
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Samurai Drifter
Wandering Mindfuck
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 5,042
Loc: Frosted
Last seen: 1 day, 21 hours
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz] 1
#15203721 - 10/10/11 01:37 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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The obstacle is the path.
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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what? speak out
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz]
#15203747 - 10/10/11 01:52 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Dear ZZ,
Please tell us what ancient Central Amercian civilization embraced the use of magic mushrooms?
OK, now tell us how it cured them of violence and attitude.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2,296
Loc: Chasing the dragon
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Why you always gotta poop on the party?
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Because I have yet to do a meaningful dose.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Dear ZZ,
Please tell us what ancient Central Amercian civilization embraced the use of magic mushrooms?
OK, now tell us how it cured them of violence and attitude.
Your talking about the Mayans and Aztecs? Well to them--if so--I could add the Orphics, the Gnostics, Eastern philosophies, Abrahamic religions---all at their iniate levels had access to mind-altering substances, so why then did they devise such violent dogmas and do violent actions, etc? That is a big question right, and one I have been exploring a long time, because for me I never had such feelings influenced in ME from my LSD and magic mushrooms experiences---have you? I would be interested to know YOUR experience that makes you believe you in same mindset as violent sun-worshipping Aztecs. Do YOU do bloody sacrifices?
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2,296
Loc: Chasing the dragon
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Why you do it then?
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz] 2
#15203773 - 10/10/11 02:08 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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You seem to not understand how the game is played. You hinted that psychedelics would mellow someone and I provided a counter. I am not making any case, just deconstructing your false assumption.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Samurai Drifter
Wandering Mindfuck
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 5,042
Loc: Frosted
Last seen: 1 day, 21 hours
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz] 1
#15203785 - 10/10/11 02:16 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
Your talking about the Mayans and Aztecs? Well to them--if so--I could add the Orphics, the Gnostics, Eastern philosophies, Abrahamic religions---all at their iniate levels had access to mind-altering substances, so why then did they devise such violent dogmas and do violent actions, etc? That is a big question right, and one I have been exploring a long time, because for me I never had such feelings influenced in ME from my LSD and magic mushrooms experiences---have you? I would be interested to know YOUR experience that makes you believe you in same mindset as violent sun-worshipping Aztecs. Do YOU do bloody sacrifices?
That's what I would call a red herring fallacy... the issue here is not the psychedelic experiences of any single individual, but examples in which they have been widely used in the religious rites of a civilization, and the nature of those rites... which in many cases have been brutally violent and gory.
Now psychedelics may not have played any role whatever in their aggression, but they certainly did nothing to help it. They simply are not helpful to everybody.
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The obstacle is the path.
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2,296
Loc: Chasing the dragon
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Yeah. Psychedelics are not benevolent. They could mellow someone out, but the same dose might leave trauma in others. The kid needs psychotherapy IMO. Can you help him zzrip?
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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LOL.
have ANY of you no knowledge of modern consciousness research? AND primordial connection between sacred plants and healing?
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Samurai Drifter
Wandering Mindfuck
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 5,042
Loc: Frosted
Last seen: 1 day, 21 hours
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz]
#15203803 - 10/10/11 02:24 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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LOL
Have YOU no knowledge of people who've taken shrooms and run around naked screaming at cops?
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The obstacle is the path.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz] 2
#15203808 - 10/10/11 02:28 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
LOL.
have ANY of you no knowledge of modern consciousness research? AND primordial connection between sacred plants and healing?
How does this question make your case? (Hint: It adds nothing whatsoever.)
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This is your drain on brugs.
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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of course it bleedin does, but i cant be bothered making the effort.
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rainx
Pilgrim
Registered: 07/31/11
Posts: 146
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 7 months, 15 days
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz]
#15203928 - 10/10/11 03:59 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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This thread seems to have lost its import.
--------------------
"The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna" is best source of insight into the self, universe, and the entheogen catalyzed experience. Forward by Aldous Huxley.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: rainx]
#15203932 - 10/10/11 04:01 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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You may choose one:
A. Rail
B. Rail
C. Rail
D. Rail
Hey, they usually don't make it past three posts.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
To be expected from this poster. See my next post.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz] 1
#15203957 - 10/10/11 04:24 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
of course it bleedin does, but i cant be bothered making the effort.
Can your debate skills and beliefs get more lame? Every time I think they can't you prove me wrong.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15203984 - 10/10/11 04:43 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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you are pushin it! keep your personal insults to yourself or I will report you. If you need to, as you dont seem to respect my input at these forums, USE the ignore button. you will find it under the posts.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz] 1
#15204005 - 10/10/11 04:54 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Please report me for my flames and personalisms. 
Better than me ignoring you why don't you leave this forum forever. You don't seem to have the debate skills to make any real contribution here.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,297
Loc: Americas
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz] 1
#15204169 - 10/10/11 07:01 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
LOL.
have ANY of you no knowledge of modern consciousness research? AND primordial connection between sacred plants and healing?
What is a "sacred plant"? How do you distinguish between sacred plants and others?
How does this back up what you've said?
Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Dear ZZ,
Please tell us what ancient Central Amercian civilization embraced the use of magic mushrooms?
OK, now tell us how it cured them of violence and attitude.
Your talking about the Mayans and Aztecs? Well to them--if so--I could add the Orphics, the Gnostics, Eastern philosophies, Abrahamic religions---all at their iniate levels had access to mind-altering substances, so why then did they devise such violent dogmas and do violent actions, etc? That is a big question right, and one I have been exploring a long time, because for me I never had such feelings influenced in ME from my LSD and magic mushrooms experiences---have you? I would be interested to know YOUR experience that makes you believe you in same mindset as violent sun-worshipping Aztecs. Do YOU do bloody sacrifices?
How did any of that answer the question?
What does it matter if someone here does bloody sacrifices or not?
The whole point is that the use of pscyhadelics doesn't seem to have any noticeable effect on aggression or antisocial behaviors such as those discussed. Instead of addressing this point, your question seems to challenge the unclaimed notion that the psychadelics cause violent behavior, which was not claimed.
If there is some other interpretation to this post, then point it out, but it seems like your trying to make a point of no relevance (even if this antecdotal survey could be worth anything).
Personally, I imagine psychadelics have no direct effect on violence and so forth. That seems to just be a silly notion, just like the shaman nonsense: a bunch of crap people believe in to make themselves feel better about the world.
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
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Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: johnm214]
#15204185 - 10/10/11 07:05 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Of COURSE they have a healing effect on people. I am amazed I have to even explain this at a forum dedicated to psychedelic issues! There is an enormous amount of information of the healing and therapeutic benefits of psychedelics both anciently and modern. Shamans were/are healers....? duh!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz]
#15204227 - 10/10/11 07:20 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Of COURSE they have a healing effect on people.]
All people? Religion has a healing effect on some people. Psychotherapy has a healing effect on some people. Shock therapy has a healing effect on some people. Placebo has a healing effect on some people.
I do think psychedelics have a positive psychological effect on some people but on some it has no effect and some a negative effect. Same for many other things.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz] 1
#15204232 - 10/10/11 07:22 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Shamans were/are healers....? duh!
All Shamans? Were't some deeply involved in the black arts?
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Real CA Milk
......one mellow fellow =/
Registered: 12/26/08
Posts: 6,448
Last seen: 11 hours, 25 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: LunarEclipse]
#15204333 - 10/10/11 07:46 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Thats fucking awful
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 How many psychedelic users — in any country — actually give
time to the local church soup kitchen, helping to feed the homeless and
hungry? How many of us, having had the experience, under the influence
of the visionary drugs, of seeing all human beings as incarnations of God,
have gone down to the local hospital to give affection and a listening ear to
lonely patients who need somebody to talk to? How many of us regularly
visit a jail, to provide spiritual and emotional support to confused, damaged
people who have grown up unloved, uneducated and unguided by their
confused, damaged parents -Alexander Shulgin 
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,297
Loc: Americas
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz]
#15204375 - 10/10/11 07:57 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
Of COURSE they have a healing effect on people. I am amazed I have to even explain this at a forum dedicated to psychedelic issues!
Well, do you have to explain it? I can't tell what your reply has to do with my post. Did I question whether "they" (whatever that is) have a healing effect? I think, instead, I observed your claims weren't established and asked several questions which you've still not answered: what are the sacred plants, how to tell what a sacred plant is, what does it matter if a forum member practices 'bloody sacrifices', and so on.
Seems your entire post here, anyways, was just an appeal to incredulity. Even if whether "they" heal anyone was relevant to my post, you sure didn't provide any evidence of your position. I can only assume your use of capitals and italics is supposed to underscore your incredulity, but it would be better if you just made a logical point, or cited some evidence, instead.
Quote:
There is an enormous amount of information of the healing and therapeutic benefits of psychedelics both anciently and modern. Shamans were/are healers....? duh!
What does this have to do with anything?
Did anyone question whether shamans were healers or whether they could 'heal' anyone? I don't believe so. Instead, people asked rather particular questions and you've used fallacy and dishonest argument to avoid them.
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: johnm214]
#15204495 - 10/10/11 08:38 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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i am just wonderin what planet your 'argument ' is on--or universe
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15204599 - 10/10/11 09:10 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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P.S.: A growing body of research evidence that homeopathic medicines have clinical effects
I will pay you a large sum of money if the next time you go have a tooth pulled out by a dentist, you have him use homeopathic anesthetics.
Note to audience: I will wager a large sum that he will not take my offer. 
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz]
#15204638 - 10/10/11 09:20 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
i am just wonderin what planet your 'argument ' is on--or universe
Get lost. This crap is almost always your reply to direct questions.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15204662 - 10/10/11 09:27 AM (7 months, 16 days ago) |
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I went on to state that Sam isn't using logic to reason and argue and that that's a sad way to live life.
Humility, I don't think you're quite getting the rules. It's against the rules to bring someone personally into the debate. You can attack what they said all you like, but you can't say anything about the person themselves.
For example, the first part of that was within the rules. It attacks an ARGUMENT based on what you perceive as a lack of logic and reason in that argument.
The second part is against the rules. It makes a comment about the person's LIFE.
Read the rules here before you post again:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4526664#4526664
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15204954 - 10/10/11 10:39 AM (7 months, 15 days ago) |
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It has been proven that our intentions can influence reality in the Stanford random-number-generator mind-influence experiments.
You mean the PRINCETON Engineering Anomalies Research Lab's work (PEARL).
This is a glaring example of what I call pre-conclusions in the mystic-head community. It's where someone has already made up their mind about some magic powers and stumbles across something on the web that seems to support their beliefs.
No matter how absolutely, drop dead on the floor incredible the result, they stop right there and accept it as factual truth without the tiniest bit of cross-checking and confirming. It amounts to buying the Brooklyn Bridge from someone standing on a street corner without so much as asking to see the deed before writing the check.
The truth is that the PEARL research is to this day a painful embarrassment and ugly mark on Princeton university.
The PEARL lab operated from 1979 until it closed in 2007. Their results have been attributed to bad experimental design rather than a real measured effect. After peer-review of the results, other scientist have stated that the lab deliberately fudged results when they couldn't generate them honestly. There is an audit trail of changed numbers that are inconsistent with other audit trails of what should be the same data. Physicist Robert Park called PEARL an "embarrassment to science".
In other words, when nearly 30 years of trying to find evidence of psi failed miserably, the PEARL scientists, who are fallible humans after all, began to FAKE THE DATA in order to produce results. In 2007 this sorry example of not-science was finally closed and Princeton can't put it behind them fast enough.
I won't get into the Dr. Emoto crap as others have already done that for me, but I will note the Dr. part is fake. He does not have a PhD. He just printed one up for himself and now calls himself Dr. Emoto. And nevermind that several universities have been unable to reproduce his results, and the JREF offered him a million dollars to demonstrate his work under proper observing conditions where he can't cheat, but he declined.
It goes to show another example of pre-conclusions where people believe his astonishing claims but don't bother with the simplest cross-check to see if they are true.
Next time you bring up junk science to support your pre-conclusions, don't do it in PS&P cuz I won't let you get away with it. Try the Pub, it's easier there. 
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid]
#15204998 - 10/10/11 10:48 AM (7 months, 15 days ago) |
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Ouch.
Unfortunately I have never seen this evidence give one true believer even a moments pause for reflection.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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This is where it all becomes words isn't it which are used to confound people ---ie., it puts people orrrf having to cross-check, look at stats 'which is what ';mystic heads' dont wanna do, right. So you just use many many words to ridicule anything that might god forbid--err is that the right terminology--threaten the sceintific mechanistic paradigm that consciousness cannot exist out of the brain---right. words words words. It all becomes words.
All I suggest to people taken in by the so-called sceptics is---an example, ask them if they even KNOW what consciousness is?
now this should be interesting
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz]
#15205208 - 10/10/11 11:32 AM (7 months, 15 days ago) |
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All I suggest to people taken in by the so-called sceptics is---an example, ask them if they even KNOW what consciousness is?
A thousand years ago nobody knew what rain was either. So what?
Advances in neurological science are converging on a material explanation for consciousness and will likely have an explanation eventually. Just like 50 years ago it was "impossible" for a machine to create art or music or beat the unique human intellect of a master chess player. Today, those things are commonplace.
Not knowing how something works doesn't mean it works by magic. That's what ignorant jungle people believe and they die from infected mosquito bites so it's not much of an endorsement.
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,262
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid]
#15205236 - 10/10/11 11:40 AM (7 months, 15 days ago) |
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--------------------
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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LOL DOPE video LOVE it!!
Quote:
A thousand years ago nobody knew what rain was either. So what?
made me laugh out loud!
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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I was into ICP in early middle-school and got way over it after that... hmm where's the hatcheting and nuts in soup; or are they reformed parents now?
And what's with that crazy Tower of Babyl thing?
"Fucking Magnets, How Do They Work?... MIRACLES!" lol
Quote:
You mean the PRINCETON Engineering Anomalies Research Lab's work (PEARL).
This is a glaring example of what I call pre-conclusions in the mystic-head community. It's where someone has already made up their mind about some magic powers and stumbles across something on the web that seems to support their beliefs.
The truth is that the PEARL research is to this day is a painful embarrassment and ugly mark on Princeton university.
I have aknowledged this already in a previous page of this thread.
Quote:
I will pay you a large sum of money if the next time you go have a tooth pulled out by a dentist, you have him use homeopathic anesthetics.
Note to audience: I will wager a large sum that he will not take my offer.
Haha got five pulled in one day +1 implanted; I got knocked out. Felt great.
I wouldn't hesitate to take up the offer if I was to ever have another tooth pulled; upon the condition that I may first confirm homeopathic anesthetics work on my body. I would not hesitate if I had anesthetic by hypnosis of Richard Bandler; the man who attempted to bring you the PLACEBO (c) pill (and co-creator of N.L.P.)... he tells a story of a man going to get his tooth pulled after a hypnosis session where he turned his own "pain switch" off.
Just gotta remember to turn it back on again as that is how lepers die; absence of pain (if I remember correctly).
A quick story: someone in my world was addicted to drugs; and sent to rehab - a halfway house type community; partially run by a gentleman who was a hypnotherapist. In one particular session; (I was told by this "someone") he put a girl under for some work; and while doing this he suggested that she shut her hand and it would not open untill he said. After the session was over he brought her out of trance; and it wasn't until after the group left the room that the girl realized her hand was still shut...
If one chooses hypnosis; it would have to be with someone trusted. This hypnotherapist above was; and did help this "someone" in my life very much... I don't know if it was a mistake or not... I used to; but now think it may have been a reinforcement.
That is not to say that I think one can be forced to do anything that is against ones' will by such methods; at least not those commonly and lawfully utilized.
^That is not that I don't sometimes  when I see covert hypnosis (NLP) being used in speeches and subliminal messages for the USARMY...
The box is such a trance-machine as-is...
Blessings.
PS: Also gave girly-bird a mushroom trip by her listening to a recording of Dr. Bandler inducing an altered state. The tape was meant to work for whatever chemical, he said; once the brain does something/experiences something; it knows the way back and the experience can be induced without the external stimuli.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
Edited by flickedbic (10/10/11 03:33 PM)
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rainx
Pilgrim
Registered: 07/31/11
Posts: 146
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 7 months, 15 days
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid]
#15206706 - 10/10/11 05:09 PM (7 months, 15 days ago) |
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"Not knowing how something works doesn't mean it works by magic. That's what ignorant jungle people believe and they die from infected mosquito bites so it's not much of an endorsement."
Consider that our enlightened technological society hasn't defeated death and a plethora of diseases and that we die of stroke, heart attack, stress, diabetes, obesity, and kidney failure.
The bottom line: nobody gets out of here alive.
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"The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna" is best source of insight into the self, universe, and the entheogen catalyzed experience. Forward by Aldous Huxley.
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,262
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: rainx] 1
#15206735 - 10/10/11 05:13 PM (7 months, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
rainx said:
"Not knowing how something works doesn't mean it works by magic. That's what ignorant jungle people believe and they die from infected mosquito bites so it's not much of an endorsement."
Consider that our enlightened technological society hasn't defeated death and a plethora of diseases and that we die of stroke, heart attack, stress, diabetes, obesity, and kidney failure.
The bottom line: nobody gets out of here alive.
....wait how is that relevant to his statement?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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You came here expecting relevance?
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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I will have a go answering that. It is typical of the arrogant mindsets of scientific materialism that they will call ancinet peoples, 'ignorant jungle people' and whatnot--I have come up against this conceit time and time again and it is ss SO ironic that here we freakin are in 'our' 'brave new world' and this 'ever so superior' culture is in REALITY fukin destroying everything. So it is a bit rich to slag off ancient peoples who DID have knowledge about herbs and healing that we have forgoten and now push friggin drugs that have been ripped OFF from the same jungle peoples that they slag off----ie., most of the drugs you know about come from the jungles/rainforests that this culture of consumerism is deforesting at alarming rates, OBLIVIOUS to all the others healing sources there, never mind the wildlife depending on habitats to live, the peoples that live there, the very trees which provide shelter, and home for insects, birds, and which are the planets lungs. So how DARE anyone who supports this insanity call our ancestors, who know how to live sustainably in a jungle, ignorant jungle peoplen implying our culture is itself not ignorantly destroying the Web of Life.
IF you argue they found the cure for malaria, so what about the massive increase of cancers since the rise of the industrial revolution?!..........etc!
Edited by zzripz (10/11/11 01:49 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz]
#15208526 - 10/11/11 06:01 AM (7 months, 15 days ago) |
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I agree with a lot of this post. However I must remind myself that those jungle and forest peoples mostly became city folk down the line whenever possible. This makes me think that this change was a perfectly natural process for better or worse.
There is really not that much wrong with scientific materialism but rather a lot wrong emotionally with many of it's practitioners.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 15 days, 14 hours
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz] 3
#15208707 - 10/11/11 07:25 AM (7 months, 15 days ago) |
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If you want to live like people of the past there is nothing stopping you. Instead you just bitch from your climate controlled room on a computer.
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Live your Life! 
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: 4896744]
#15208828 - 10/11/11 08:09 AM (7 months, 15 days ago) |
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climate controlled-=-whered ya think i live, LA, lol??
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz]
#15208855 - 10/11/11 08:20 AM (7 months, 15 days ago) |
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Do you heat your house?
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz] 2
#15209073 - 10/11/11 09:19 AM (7 months, 15 days ago) |
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who know how to live sustainably
When American Indians figured out that Buffalo instinct is to gather around a dead buffalo, they immediately exploited that knowledge with a hunting technique that would drop one animal and surround the entire herd once they gathered around the dead one. They then proceeded to wipe out the ENTIRE HERD in order to take a dozen.
Eventually, when all the local buffalo were gone, they just packed up and moved to a new area to start again.
Get real. The only reason any jungle people live sustainably is because they don't have a choice. They're currently ignorant and haven't figured out how to kill more animals more quickly. Give them time to learn how and it will end the sustainably part.
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,297
Loc: Americas
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz]
#15209139 - 10/11/11 09:36 AM (7 months, 15 days ago) |
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My ancestors were jungle people? Whom are you referring to here?
Quote:
zzripz said:
It is typical of the arrogant mindsets of scientific materialism that they will call ancinet peoples, 'ignorant jungle people' and whatnot--I have come up against this conceit time and time again
Well, can you back any of that up? I've never heard anything of the sort, and the whole notion of calling a group of people 'ignorant' seems pretty scientifically problematic. I wouldn't expect this out of any legitimate scientific outlet.
Can you provide any evidence this view even exists amongst the scientific community?
Quote:
-ie., most of the drugs you know about come from the jungles/rainforests
Source?
Much of your post, as Diploid expands on, seems to be based on bullshit. Can you provide any evidence that this is correct?
I'm not aware of many drugs that have a rainforest/jungle origin. Very few, in fact.
I imagine you've heard the popular claim that many unknown drugs are to be found in the rainforest and have somehow concluded that means the drugs used by 'us' are derived therefrom. Am I wrong? It really seems like your just making up things as you go along, because I can't imagine that you can establish even a signifigant fraction of our drugs are from the rainforest.
Quote:
IF you argue they found the cure for malaria, so what about the massive increase of cancers since the rise of the industrial revolution?!..........etc!
Source?
Honestly, your post is like reading some new age webpage. Can you back any of this stuff up?
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Rebel_At_War
REBEL
Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 780
Loc: Wherever the wind blows
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: rainx]
#15209220 - 10/11/11 09:54 AM (7 months, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
rainx said:
I'm disappointed at the members' responses to this outrage in Peru. The mass murder of shamans is an atrocity that should not be belittled or made into an amusement. These are our spiritual brothers and sisters. No one is immune from being murdered, shaman or not.
Well.... People get murdered all across the world every day and majority of our western society belittle it and find it amusing, so what makes this any diffrent? Every person on this earth is our spiritual brothers and sisters... Not just the shamans...
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The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man who lives his life to the fullest is prepared to die at any time...
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Rebel_At_War]
#15209239 - 10/11/11 09:57 AM (7 months, 15 days ago) |
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so what makes this any diffrent?
The fact that the dead shamans claimed supernatural protection against these things but clearly didn't have it. Neener neener!
Now if their beliefs were wrong about this, what else might they be wrong about?
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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Rebel_At_War
REBEL
Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 780
Loc: Wherever the wind blows
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid]
#15209294 - 10/11/11 10:10 AM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
so what makes this any diffrent?
The fact that the dead shamans claimed supernatural protection against these things but clearly didn't have it. Neener neener!
Now if their beliefs were wrong about this, what else might they be wrong about?
Shamans are humans aswell..??? Arent they?? The "power of protection" can only get u so far... ALL humans die eventually.... Shamans included...
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The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man who lives his life to the fullest is prepared to die at any time...
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Rebel_At_War]
#15209369 - 10/11/11 10:27 AM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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Shamans are humans aswell..??? Arent they??
Their humanity is not in question. Their belief system is.
The "power of protection" can only get u so far...
They beloved they were supernaturally protected from exactly what killed them. Therefore, their belief system is suspect, as is the belief system of anyone who claims shamans are anything other than delusional.
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid]
#15209381 - 10/11/11 10:31 AM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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Next you are going to be dissing Native American's use of sage smudging and rattle shaking...
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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I was almost bit once by a rattleshake(r).
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15209489 - 10/11/11 10:56 AM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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What I don't get is that
A. We are all one.
B. All humans are deserving of compassion and are equal in the eyes of The Lord.
But few shed a tear when 13 drug cartel members are brutally slain by the US Marines, yet some bloody squabble amongst shamans is cause for mourning and hand-wringing.
Should I also be bereft if a plane-load of Amercian psychic readers containing Sylvia Brown, Van Praague, Dubois and Edward went down in a fiery ball?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid]
#15209519 - 10/11/11 11:03 AM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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what is YOUR philosophy of life? let us have a look at it shall we clever clogs?
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz]
#15209545 - 10/11/11 11:08 AM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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For those not in the know, Peruvian shamans trying to get a piece of the ayahuasca tourist trade $$$ will disrespect other shamans to potential customers as well as attempt to put black magic spells on them. Doesn't sound much different than large corporation tactics against competitors.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Sly Stone
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 595
Loc: Never get out of the boat
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
For those not in the know, Peruvian shamans trying to get a piece of the ayahuasca tourist trade $$$ will disrespect other shamans to potential customers as well as attempt to put black magic spells on them. Doesn't sound much different than large corporation tactics against competitors.
McDonald's is always putting black magic spells on BK.
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2,296
Loc: Chasing the dragon
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Sly Stone]
#15209797 - 10/11/11 12:07 PM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Sly Stone said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
For those not in the know, Peruvian shamans trying to get a piece of the ayahuasca tourist trade $$$ will disrespect other shamans to potential customers as well as attempt to put black magic spells on them. Doesn't sound much different than large corporation tactics against competitors.
McDonald's is always putting black magic spells on BK.
No black magic spell can make McDonalds taste better than Burger King though.
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Sly Stone]
#15209800 - 10/11/11 12:08 PM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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BK burgers are better, but Mac fries rule!
That lady with the hot coffee lawsuit against McDonald's was hired by BK.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2,296
Loc: Chasing the dragon
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BK burgers are better, but Mac fries rule!
Can't argue with that, but if I have the choice I will go for BK.
That lady with the hot coffee lawsuit against McDonald's was hired by BK.
Seriously?
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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How much $$$ would it take to get you to pour a scalding liquid on your private parts?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2,296
Loc: Chasing the dragon
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
How much $$$ would it take to get you to pour a scalding liquid on your private parts?
Would there be any damage to my private parts?
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,297
Loc: Americas
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz]
#15209942 - 10/11/11 12:40 PM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
what is YOUR philosophy of life? let us have a look at it shall we clever clogs?
What does that have to do with anything?
In case you missed it, several of your claims were questioned: that most of the drugs we know of come from the rainforest/jungle, that scientists call various cultures "ignorant" and otherwise denigrate them as you claimed, and that there has been an "increase in cancer" since the industrial revolution.
You claimed these things were true to make your point. Were they? Is there any reason we should believe them?
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: johnm214]
#15210040 - 10/11/11 01:05 PM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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No. I do not demand you believe anything I say. that doesn;t mean it isn't true though.
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,340
Last seen: 15 hours, 33 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz] 3
#15210075 - 10/11/11 01:16 PM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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Do you ever answer questions directly?
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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That lady with the hot coffee lawsuit
Only in PS&P can a thread start out on shaman murders, then pass through French fries, and finally end up on burned pussies. But as long as we're at it:
Checker's fries rock! 
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,297
Loc: Americas
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz]
#15210363 - 10/11/11 02:28 PM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
No. I do not demand you believe anything I say. that doesn;t mean it isn't true though.
This is a philosophy forum geared towards debate. Conclusions absent an argument or evidence, such as those you've provided, are not helpful. Making claims that another poster is wrong and then refusing to back those up is even more unhelpful- its a waste of time and space.
If you don't expect people to take your posts seriously, it would be better to state that at the outset, to avoid misleading people about your intentions.
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,340
Last seen: 15 hours, 33 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: johnm214] 2
#15210384 - 10/11/11 02:34 PM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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mod party 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: johnm214]
#15210398 - 10/11/11 02:36 PM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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I assume if someone makes no attempt to back up their claims that their claims are fos nonsense which is almost always the case. Especially with the poster in question. Most of his posts are a total FAIL.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15211666 - 10/11/11 10:17 PM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
IF you argue they found the cure for malaria, so what about the massive increase of cancers since the rise of the industrial revolution?!..........etc!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source?
Honestly, your post is like reading some new age webpage. Can you back any of this stuff up?
I can't awnswer for him; but when I was in college I had an interesting class in American History: wherein it was devulged that this generation has the distinction of being the first in history to have a life-expectancy lower than their parents.
"Drugs from the rainforest?
Shamans with knowledge?
I'm leaning towards impossible..."
"Once those jungle natives learn how to hunt effectively; they will next learn how to factory-farm and have Big-Macs and then everyone will be as happy as this USA generation; and the only drugs will come from MONSANTO; payed for easily and quickly by scanning the veins on the back of your right hand in association with a National ID card; just as one does to get Credit for flipping the Big-Macs."
BIOMETRIC NATIONAL ID: CAN'T WORK (OR DRIVE/FLY/BANK etc?) WITHOUT IT!
Sounds like a slice of heaven right?
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
Last seen: 11 hours, 22 minutes
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
article
So much for second sight and warnings from dead ancestors. It turns out that shamanic visions are only in your head and do not come from another realm.
the other realm is in your head nubsauce. But so is everything. I can explore it like anybody else, doesn't mean i couldn't still be murdered by some jackoff.
so sad that a tragedy like this appears to you as an opportunity to maintain the boundaries of your own little world...this thread is garbage
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http://soundcloud.com/ufhwhomp like music?
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
Last seen: 11 hours, 22 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: oojijimoo]
#15212362 - 10/12/11 02:07 AM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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sounds like those shamans were some fuckin G's getting organized, and the government didn't like them. if anything to me the article is a validation of their power...they wouldn't have been killed if the mayor didn't fear them.
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http://soundcloud.com/ufhwhomp like music?
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4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 15 days, 14 hours
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: oojijimoo] 2
#15212571 - 10/12/11 04:33 AM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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Was that an argument?
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Live your Life!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: 4896744] 2
#15212603 - 10/12/11 05:04 AM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
iThink said:
Was that an argument?
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: oojijimoo]
#15212752 - 10/12/11 06:29 AM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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guruu,
You know better than to call people names in PS&P. If you prefer to debate like a child, do it in the OTD forum where that's how they debate there.
The next time you do it in PS&P you will be banned.
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,297
Loc: Americas
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15212936 - 10/12/11 07:56 AM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
flickedbic said:
Quote:
IF you argue they found the cure for malaria, so what about the massive increase of cancers since the rise of the industrial revolution?!..........etc!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source?
Honestly, your post is like reading some new age webpage. Can you back any of this stuff up?
I can't awnswer for him; but when I was in college I had an interesting class in American History: wherein it was devulged that this generation has the distinction of being the first in history to have a life-expectancy lower than their parents.
Which generation is "this" generation? Do you know what the evidence for their claim is?
Regarding zzripz claim about all the new cancers I imagine this is just something he assumed based on faulty logic: that an increase in cancer diagnosises compared with some decades ago reflects an increase in the incidence of cancer. With all the new analytical and diagnostic technology we now have (CT, MRI, blood and urine tests, sophisticated ultrasound equipment, et cet) available to even the smallest hospitals and routine screenings for the most common cancers (colon, breast, cervicle, testicular, prostate), your going to see a large increase in diagnosises even if the patient population remains the same.
Quote:
"Drugs from the rainforest?
Shamans with knowledge?
I'm leaning towards impossible..."
Nobody said it was impossible, we said zzripz didn't back up his claims regarding most of the drugs we know of coming from the rainforest.
Their are relatively few drugs derived from rainforest sources. (He probably made this up based on the common statistic estimating many new useful drugs could be found amongst rainforest orgnaisms, though the same is true of pretty much any ecological system, we have relatively rudimentary knowledge of the active substances in various plants, mostly those with some historical/cultural signifigance)
Quote:
Kickle said:
mod party
(I'll start banning these non-mod interlopers)
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: johnm214]
#15213175 - 10/12/11 09:14 AM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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ALL i can see from you is words. So I ask you--sowhere's YOUR evidences...? can you not dig that most drugs will derive from plants?
can you not see tyhat pollutants will be detrimental for health. WHY do I have to throw sources at you, and you dont at me?
hey??
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz] 1
#15213178 - 10/12/11 09:15 AM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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Because he asked you and you didn't. Now if you up with some good ones then he will be obliged to come back. This is the basics of debate.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,262
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz] 1
#15213213 - 10/12/11 09:27 AM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
ALL i can see from you is words. So I ask you--sowhere's YOUR evidences...? can you not dig that most drugs will derive from plants?
can you not see tyhat pollutants will be detrimental for health. WHY do I have to throw sources at you, and you dont at me?
hey??
here's a cool story.
the people making the claims provide the evidence.
its why scientific papers arent just an abstract and a conclusion.
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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but it is ob-vi-ous...? duh?
tell me something--look i am gonna say, drinking contaminated water will give you disease.........................right?
now. are you tellin me I gotta go now fetch ya some evidence,,,? you trippin yo?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz] 1
#15213241 - 10/12/11 09:39 AM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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No your generalized claims are not obvious. Pretend it's one of your alien friends and they don't believe you.
All this time you are bitching about having to back your claims you could be looking for evidence to validate them. When someone doesn't it's a major red flag that they are fos.
Too bad you have me on ignore so you can't see this.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 15 days, 14 hours
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz] 2
#15213286 - 10/12/11 09:51 AM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
No your generalized claims are not obvious. Pretend it's one of your alien friends and they don't believe you.
All this time you are bitching about having to back your claims you could be looking for evidence to validate them. When someone doesn't it's a major red flag that they are fos.
Too bad you have me on ignore so you can't see this.
-Icelander
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Live your Life!
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz]
#15213322 - 10/12/11 09:59 AM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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So much talk... this took me 10 minutes to compile:
Quote:
BOSTON, March 16 - For the first time in two centuries, the current generation of children in America may have shorter life expectancies than their parents... by as much as five years.
...
The report's lead author, Dr. S. Jay Olshansky, a professor of public health at the University of Illinois, Chicago, said he considered the report's projections of reduced life expectancy to be "very conservative, and I think the negative effect is probably greater than we have shown."
Report from the March 17, 2005 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine, story above from http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/17/health/17obese.html
REGARDING RAINFOREST MEDICINE
"Seventy percent of the plants identified as having anti-cancer characteristics by the US National Cancer Institute are found only in the tropical rainforest."
-http://rainforests.mongabay.com/1007.htm
A few examples of plant medicine:
Quote:
Quinine
cinchona tree (S. America)
treat malaria
Neostigmine
Calabar bean (Africa?)
used to treat glaucoma and provides a blueprint for synthetic insecticides
Novacaine, cocaine
coca plant (South America)
local anesthetic; cocaine served as a blue print for less toxic, less addictive anesthetics
Turbocuarine
curare liana (America)
Originally used by natives to poison arrow tips. Muscle relaxant for surgery; to treat muscle disorders like Parkinson's disease and multiple sclerosis. Cannot be synthesized in the lab.
vincristine, vinblastine
rosy periwinkle (Madagascar)
pediatric leukemia, Hogkin's disease
Cortisone
wild yams (Central America)
active ingredient in birth control pills
-http://rainforests.mongabay.com/10drugs.htm
Quote:
Around 70 percent of all new drugs introduced in the United States in the past 25 years have been derived from natural products, reports a study published in the March 23 issue of the Journal of Natural Products. The findings show that despite increasingly sophisticated techniques to design medications in the lab, Mother Nature is still the best drug designer...Newman and Cragg note that while random sampling can uncover some drugs, working with native healers, who use medicinal plants on a regular basis, is especially effective. For example, a 1990s study in Samoa found that 86 percent of the plants used by local healers yielded biological activity in humans. Other insights can be gained by observing which plants avoid predation and what plants are eaten by non-herbivorous animals... This article used quotes and information from "Mother nature still a rich source of new drugs" by Julie Steenhuysen (Reuters), "Medicine Man Has Counterpart in Real Life" by Maritta P. Grau (National Cancer Institute at Frederick),
-http://news.mongabay.com/2007/0320-drugs.html
Quote:
Currently, 121 prescription drugs currently sold worldwide come from plant-derived sources. And while 25% of Western pharmaceuticals are derived from rainforest ingredients, less than 1% of these tropical trees and plants have been tested by scientists.
The U.S. National Cancer Institute has identified 3000 plants that are active against cancer cells. 70% of these plants are found in the rainforest. Twenty-five percent of the active ingredients in today's cancer-fighting drugs come from organisms found only in the rainforest
Vincristine, extracted from the rainforest plant, Periwinkle, is one of the world's most powerful anticancer drugs. It has dramatically increased the survival rate for acute childhood leukemia since its discovery.
In 1983, there were no U.S. pharmaceutical manufacturers involved in research programs to discover new drugs or cures from plants. Today, over 100 pharmaceutical companies and several branches of the US government, including giants like Merck and The National Cancer Institute, are engaged in plant research projects for possible drugs and cures for viruses, infections, cancer and even AIDS.
-http://savetheamazon.org/rainforeststats.htm
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
Edited by flickedbic (10/12/11 10:02 AM)
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
Last seen: 11 hours, 22 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: 4896744]
#15213374 - 10/12/11 10:16 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
iThink said:
Was that an argument?
NO
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http://soundcloud.com/ufhwhomp like music?
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4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 15 days, 14 hours
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: oojijimoo] 1
#15213409 - 10/12/11 10:26 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Making unsubstantiated points is fun!
I am the most attractive male in the world!!!!
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Live your Life!
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,340
Last seen: 15 hours, 33 minutes
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grats!
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4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 15 days, 14 hours
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If only it were true. 
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Live your Life!
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,340
Last seen: 15 hours, 33 minutes
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if it were true for you then it wouldn't be true for me. sorry you got the short end of that stick.
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4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 15 days, 14 hours
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I would settle for second.
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Live your Life!
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,340
Last seen: 15 hours, 33 minutes
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ok but your trophy isn't what you expect
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
Last seen: 11 hours, 22 minutes
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i can play too...this thread was not created simply to reaffirm a materialist bias!
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http://soundcloud.com/ufhwhomp like music?
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,340
Last seen: 15 hours, 33 minutes
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I found it a sad loss of history personally, not reinforcing for a materialistic viewpoint. I also don't hold the belief that what a shaman does or is capable of has anything to do with protecting themselves from harm. But I've never been with the shamans killed and they may very well have claimed just that in which case OC's point is well made. In lieu of that, it's well made for those who would defend a shaman's ability to magically protect themselves from death.
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4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 15 days, 14 hours
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Quote:
guruu said:
i can play too...this thread was not created simply to reaffirm a materialist bias!
Then why don't you try to put forth an argument?
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Live your Life!
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: 4896744]
#15213720 - 10/12/11 11:37 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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see...?
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4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 15 days, 14 hours
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz] 2
#15213727 - 10/12/11 11:39 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Idk, it might be helpful to know what you are referencing.
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Live your Life!
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Samurai Drifter
Wandering Mindfuck
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 5,042
Loc: Frosted
Last seen: 1 day, 21 hours
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz] 1
#15213793 - 10/12/11 11:53 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
what is YOUR philosophy of life? let us have a look at it shall we clever clogs?
Yes, somebody is going to explain their whole philosophy of life just so you can offer an ad-hominem response that has nothing to do with whether or not shamans can heal people.
Here's my philosophy of life: You can give your life whatever meaning you want. Somehow, I manage to do that without believing in spirits, ghosts, gods, magic, shamanic healing, or other nonsense designed to convince people they will live beyond their death. I also manage to treat my fellow beings decently, without a conviction that I will be punished by a higher power if I fail to do so.
Bizarre, huh?
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The obstacle is the path.
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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You can lead a horse to water, zzripz...
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
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Samurai Drifter
Wandering Mindfuck
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 5,042
Loc: Frosted
Last seen: 1 day, 21 hours
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic] 2
#15213992 - 10/12/11 12:29 PM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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...but you can't make it believe unsupported bullshit just by repeating it over and over again.
Is that how the saying goes?
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The obstacle is the path.
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,262
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Quote:
flickedbic said:
You can lead a horse to water, zzripz...
Blessings.
Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
...but you can't make it believe unsupported bullshit just by repeating it over and over again.
Is that how the saying goes?
yea you can. you just have to write a book about it
or quote a news website
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:
zzripz said:
what is YOUR philosophy of life? let us have a look at it shall we clever clogs?
Yes, somebody is going to explain their whole philosophy of life just so you can offer an ad-hominem response that has nothing to do with whether or not shamans can heal people.
keep yer hair on...
All I asked is what your philosophy of life is and you have told me.
Quote:
Here's my philosophy of life: You can give your life whatever meaning you want. Somehow, I manage to do that without believing in spirits, ghosts, gods, magic, shamanic healing, or other nonsense designed to convince people they will live beyond their death. I also manage to treat my fellow beings decently, without a conviction that I will be punished by a higher power if I fail to do so.
Bizarre, huh?
so, you don't believe in spirits, ghosts, gods, magic, shamanic healing, or other 'nonesense'. you don't believe we will live beyond death. But you respect people even though you don't do it cause you fear some higher power will punish you if you don't.
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz]
#15214424 - 10/12/11 01:53 PM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Haha the saying goes something like that (only rainforest medicine is not B.S. and is substantiated as in the previous page)... However Hitler might say Quote:
Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it”
And his friend Joseph Goebbels:
Quote:
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
Reminds me of the self-inflicted wound/false-flag terror attacks of 9/11; and the Reichstag fire.
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
Edited by flickedbic (10/12/11 02:00 PM)
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HigherConsciousnes
Existence
Registered: 05/16/11
Posts: 463
Last seen: 1 hour, 6 minutes
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
article
So much for second sight and warnings from dead ancestors. It turns out that shamanic visions are only in your head and do not come from another realm.
This couldn't be any more truer. The only thing psychedelics do for you, knowledge wise, is show you that you're in this reality and you need to enjoy it the way you want to. I believe the shamans make up these gods and say they can see the future to gain some sort of godly impression so they can sit on their ass and get free food from the tribe.
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The Universe
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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I believe the churches may make up these gods and say only they can commune with them so they can sit on their ass and get free food from the community.
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
Edited by flickedbic (10/12/11 02:09 PM)
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HigherConsciousnes
Existence
Registered: 05/16/11
Posts: 463
Last seen: 1 hour, 6 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15214486 - 10/12/11 02:07 PM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
flickedbic said:
I believe the churches make up these gods and say only they can commune with them so they can sit on their ass and get free food from the community.
Blessings.
Haha yeah brother.. same difference.. then they create this idea of hell to scare the people into giving them money.
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The Universe
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
Last seen: 11 hours, 22 minutes
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Kickle said:
I found it a sad loss of history personally, not reinforcing for a materialistic viewpoint. I also don't hold the belief that what a shaman does or is capable of has anything to do with protecting themselves from harm. But I've never been with the shamans killed and they may very well have claimed just that in which case OC's point is well made. In lieu of that, it's well made for those who would defend a shaman's ability to magically protect themselves from death.
so that would be known as a strawman argument
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http://soundcloud.com/ufhwhomp like music?
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,297
Loc: Americas
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15214545 - 10/12/11 02:19 PM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
ALL i can see from you is words. So I ask you--sowhere's YOUR evidences...?
Evidence for what? If you're challenging something I've said you're going to have to identify what it is, first.
Quote:
can you not dig that most drugs will derive from plants?
What does this have to do with anything? You said that most drugs we know about come from the rainforest/jungle, not that 'most' drugs 'will' derive from 'plants'. All those quoted words represent changes in the claim you made.
Quote:
can you not see tyhat pollutants will be detrimental for health.
What does that have to do with anything? Stop with the straw man nonsense, I made it quite clear what I was challenging.
Quote:
WHY do I have to throw sources at you, and you dont at me?
hey??
Because I challenged your claims. You didn't challenge mine. Is this really that difficult?
Quote:
flickedbic said:
So much talk... this took me 10 minutes to compile:
And what was the relevance of that compilation? You didn't provide any evidence of zzripz claim that most of the drugs we know about come from the rainforest.
He's now equivocating, so maybe you read his later posts assumed his later claims were the same, but it isn't so in any case. If you'll read my previous posts I even speculated zzripz based his claims on reports such as those you refrence, though they don't back up his claims.
Left unmentioned are his claims that cancer 'has increased' since the industrial revolution and that
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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Relevance in compilation re: plant drugs: 25% of pharmaceuticals is not a majority; correct. It is not something to turn ones' nose up at, either. That is all.
Also, my previous post on religion is not to say that there are no good priests; or no good shamans.
Just because many are corrupt, does not mean that there are none that know how to counsel one thru a painful spot in life or have useful knowledge of plants/herbs and their usefull combinations.
I am also unsure whether the Divine/divination is really undoubtedly a figment of mans' imagination...
See the black and white video broadcast in 1961 called "One Step Beyond - The Sacred Mushroom" ; free on youtube.
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
Edited by flickedbic (10/12/11 02:31 PM)
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,297
Loc: Americas
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15214688 - 10/12/11 02:47 PM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
flickedbic said:
Relevance in compilation re: plant drugs: 25% of pharmaceuticals is not a majority; correct. It is not something to turn ones' nose up at, either. That is all.
Ok, however; recognize that the 25% figure provided by the "save the rainforest" website had no evidence or citations provided for it, and this figure was the percent of pharmaceuticals continaining some rainforest derived ingredient, not the portion of drugs that come from rainforest sources. If they include the stupid herbal remedy bullshit that now makes up a huge portion of over the counter sales in the US, it includes a lot of nontherepeutic and nonactive substances that couldn't even be called 'drugs'
(some of the examples of the drugs cited, however; included things like coca which grows at higher elevations as well as in the jungle. It seems a bit of a borderline class to include things that grow elsewhere but also, to some extent, can survive in the rainforest)
edit:
Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:Here's my philosophy of life: You can give your life whatever meaning you want. Somehow, I manage to do that without believing in spirits, ghosts, gods, magic, shamanic healing, or other nonsense designed to convince people they will live beyond their death. I also manage to treat my fellow beings decently, without a conviction that I will be punished by a higher power if I fail to do so.
Bizarre, huh?
so, you don't believe in spirits, ghosts, gods, magic, shamanic healing, or other 'nonesense'. you don't believe we will live beyond death. But you respect people even though you don't do it cause you fear some higher power will punish you if you don't.
Huh? He said exactly the opposite: he respects people despite not believing a flying spaghetti monster or your "goddess" will punish him if he doesn't.
What do you mean by "you respect people even though you don't do it"? huh?
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: johnm214] 1
#15214914 - 10/12/11 03:32 PM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Not to mention that the word "most" which was used in the debate is at least a 100% exaggeration of the actual percentage. And that's generous because it assumes the now-corrected 25% is itself an honest estimate, which as you've now pointed out, is doubtful.
I can usually gauge the amount of bullshit and intellectual dishonesty exist in a debater's argument by the amount of exaggeration he puts into the debate hoping no one will notice. This particular debate is a great example.
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,766
Loc: Sugar Town
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid]
#15214937 - 10/12/11 03:37 PM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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None of you care about Peruvians anyway. This particulare thererad is a pearfuct xample.
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Don't worry be happy.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: LunarEclipse] 2
#15214941 - 10/12/11 03:37 PM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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No one said they did.
Do you have any more off-topic noise to add to the thread?
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid]
#15214954 - 10/12/11 03:39 PM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Prolly a classic rock vid.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,766
Loc: Sugar Town
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid]
#15214957 - 10/12/11 03:40 PM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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--------------------
Don't worry be happy.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: LunarEclipse] 1
#15214980 - 10/12/11 03:44 PM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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How could I possibly have known? 
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This is your drain on brugs.
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LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,766
Loc: Sugar Town
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
How could I possibly have known?
Hey You are shhhhhmart?
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Don't worry be happy.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: LunarEclipse] 3
#15215014 - 10/12/11 03:50 PM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Alright, that's enough. Shut up or get on topic. Otherwise I'll do it for you.
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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HigherConsciousnes
Existence
Registered: 05/16/11
Posts: 463
Last seen: 1 hour, 6 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid]
#15215030 - 10/12/11 03:52 PM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Alright, that's enough. Shut up or get on topic. Otherwise I'll do it for you.
You tell em bro
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The Universe
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2,296
Loc: Chasing the dragon
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid]
#15215046 - 10/12/11 03:56 PM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Alright, that's enough. Shut up or get on topic. Otherwise I'll do it for you.
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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I must say that merely because 14 Shamans were murdered it does not mean that future-vision is non-existent.
It may mean that these particular shamans had none; but it also does not exclude the possibility of (at least one/some of) them having the knowledge of their deaths before-the-fact and doing nothing to stop it.
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2,296
Loc: Chasing the dragon
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15215106 - 10/12/11 04:06 PM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Why would they do nothing to stop it?
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,766
Loc: Sugar Town
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Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
Why would they do nothing to stop it?
Racist.
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Don't worry be happy.
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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I don't pretend to know; perhaps so they could return to the stars and have more power than could be weilded in a human shell?
Perhaps they saw that reality would be influenced by their death in ways that pleased them (drawing attention to the atrocious nature of government)?
I really have no idea what others motivations might be; I'm just saying that there is nothing certainly proven by the occurance(s) one way or the other in the pre-cognitive sense.
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
Edited by flickedbic (10/12/11 04:35 PM)
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2,296
Loc: Chasing the dragon
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: LunarEclipse]
#15215225 - 10/12/11 04:29 PM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
Why would they do nothing to stop it?
Racist.
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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HigherConsciousnes
Existence
Registered: 05/16/11
Posts: 463
Last seen: 1 hour, 6 minutes
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Maybe you can't stop your fate? You can know it's going to happen but you can't escape it.
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The Universe
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2,296
Loc: Chasing the dragon
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Quote:
HigherConsciousnes said:
Maybe you can't stop your fate? You can know it's going to happen but you can't escape it.
Then I don't want to know it. Just one more thing to worry about. I always though shamanism was an alternative form of psychotherapy. If what you say is shamanism, then I'm sticking to quasi-shamanism, which is whatever I make of it.
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,766
Loc: Sugar Town
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Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
Quote:
HigherConsciousnes said:
Maybe you can't stop your fate? You can know it's going to happen but you can't escape it.
Then I don't want to know it. Just one more thing to worry about. I always though shamanism was an alternative form of psychotherapy. If what you say is shamanism, then I'm sticking to quasi-shamanism, which is whatever I make of it.
Quasi-Shamanism?
What the fuck is next. Kill this thread move on.
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Don't worry be happy.
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2,296
Loc: Chasing the dragon
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: LunarEclipse]
#15215364 - 10/12/11 04:51 PM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
Quote:
HigherConsciousnes said:
Maybe you can't stop your fate? You can know it's going to happen but you can't escape it.
Then I don't want to know it. Just one more thing to worry about. I always though shamanism was an alternative form of psychotherapy. If what you say is shamanism, then I'm sticking to quasi-shamanism, which is whatever I make of it.
Quasi-Shamanism?
What the fuck is next. Kill this thread move on.
What is shamanism in your opinion?
--------------------
"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,766
Loc: Sugar Town
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Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
Quote:
HigherConsciousnes said:
Maybe you can't stop your fate? You can know it's going to happen but you can't escape it.
Then I don't want to know it. Just one more thing to worry about. I always though shamanism was an alternative form of psychotherapy. If what you say is shamanism, then I'm sticking to quasi-shamanism, which is whatever I make of it.
Quasi-Shamanism?
What the fuck is next. Kill this thread move on.
What is shamanism in your opinion?
You really are a fucking troll.
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Don't worry be happy.
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2,296
Loc: Chasing the dragon
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: LunarEclipse]
#15215482 - 10/12/11 05:15 PM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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How so?
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,766
Loc: Sugar Town
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Get the fuck rid of the annoying sig for beginners.
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Don't worry be happy.
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2,296
Loc: Chasing the dragon
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: LunarEclipse]
#15215564 - 10/12/11 05:34 PM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
Get the fuck rid of the annoying sig for beginners.
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,766
Loc: Sugar Town
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Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
Get the fuck rid of the annoying sig for beginners.
Fucking keep it.
Fits you perfect.
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Don't worry be happy.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: LunarEclipse] 2
#15215804 - 10/12/11 06:22 PM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Alright Lunar,
You're taking a break. The next one will be VERY long so think carefully before you continue.
And annoying sig? From someone who posts nothing but noise, off-topic crap, and annoying videos that nobody watches? Are you kidding me? I'll take the sig any day.
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
|
Luueschen
bananadine
Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 328
Loc: Southern CA 
Last seen: 10 hours, 28 minutes
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Shamans allegedly practice their craft for wisdom and protection. They obviously got neither.
Come on man...even Babas get sick sometimes
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Luueschen]
#15217784 - 10/13/11 03:59 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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What is shamanism? Well the actual term --which is over-used, especially by New Agers--originates from Siberia and using that term to designate other indigenous peoples healers tends to annoy them somewhat!
This will mean in Peru too, though as far as I am aware, the healers there do not on the whole reject the term as fervently as some native American peoples have. But for example, in South America, a healer who uses as hir sacrament the sacred vine, Ayahuasca, is called an Ayahuescero, and/or a curandero. And all of them will have their own traditional ways.
Do I have a critique if 'shamanism'? Well, first off I respect them, but I also question ALL authority. I read a very unique book years ago titled Shamanism: The Foundations of Magic, by Ward Rutherford, and he critiques shamanism saying that in its male predominant phase the shamans would feel threatened by the more communal ecstatic religion of the Goddess where ALL the participants take the sacrament and become possessed, because it threatedned his authority. For often it is only the shaman who will take the mind-altering vegetation/substance to perform healing---in this way it is easy to see how his authority could get out of hand?
Whats that sayin agin: give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime
This is why I would rather encourage support, for others, yes, but also encouraging self-healing rather than depending on some authority figure
In some 'shamanic' culture the shamans can be under threat from their own tribe, because of the fear that because they know how to heal they also know how to harm---and sometimes superstition will scapegoat the shaman!
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,297
Loc: Americas
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz]
#15217815 - 10/13/11 04:35 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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zzripz, I asked you about your previous claims, in response you answered my questions with your own, such as:
"WHY do I have to throw sources at you, and you dont at me?
hey??"
Though this and other questions seemed evasive, I answered them anyways. Now you appear to have let the matter drop, but have still not answered th questions I've asked you. You've made several claims in this thread and I've answered all the questions you asked- its time for you to reciprocate.
Quote:
zzripz said:
Do I have a critique if 'shamanism'? Well, first off I respect them, but I also question ALL authority. I read a very unique book years ago titled Shamanism: The Foundations of Magic, by Ward Rutherford, and he critiques shamanism saying that in its male predominant phase the shamans would feel threatened by the more communal ecstatic religion of the Goddess where ALL the participants take the sacrament and become possessed, because it threatedned his authority. For often it is only the shaman who will take the mind-altering vegetation/substance to perform healing---in this way it is easy to see how his authority could get out of hand?
Or, you could base your views on logic and evidence and not worry about things like "respect" and "authority" in ariving at your world view. Who cares whether some shaman dude is threatened by "the religion of the Goddess" (whatever that is) or whether he wants certain people to take the drugs or not take them?
Quote:
This is why I would rather encourage support, for others, yes, but also encouraging self-healing rather than depending on some authority figure
How do you self heal or even determine what is useful as a healing tool?
It seems kind of difficult to imagine how you could identify truth without having any ability to explain how you know it is truth, especially when you both claim not to rely on authority and then equivocate on those few things you have claimed.
How do you know if your 'teaching a man to fish" or just bullshiting him with a bunch of old prejudice and bullshit, like the other stereotypical mystics, religious authorities, et cet?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid] 3
#15217821 - 10/13/11 04:41 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Alright Lunar,
You're taking a break. The next one will be VERY long so think carefully before you continue.
And annoying sig? From someone who posts nothing but noise, off-topic crap, and annoying videos that nobody watches? Are you kidding me? I'll take the sig any day.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: johnm214]
#15217924 - 10/13/11 05:55 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Do you understand that there is a left brain and a right brain approach to reality or do you insist everyone MUST take your approach to how things should be?
You are quite prepared to arrogantly dismiss the whole of our species' history of alternative methods of healing because you assume that the only model to be respected is the western medical model. Am I correct?
Now, I am not claiming it is ALL wrong, but that it is not all super-duper either and that because it is based on a mechanical understanding of the body and mind that there can be much that is missed, like the spiritual aspect to reality for example. So que you to say eg., 'show me evidence for spirit'---right?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz]
#15217937 - 10/13/11 06:02 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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If you want to talk mysticism or spirituality then you are in the wrong forum. How many times must this be explained to you? This is a debate forum where proofs of claims are required. You rarely provide anything but opinion. Are you incapable of this basic comprehension.
I've pointed this out dozens of times and your response is to put me on ignore.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
Last seen: 11 hours, 22 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15217951 - 10/13/11 06:09 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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icelander you realize that Hegel, the most influential philosopher in Western Civilization (arguably) believed in spirit and found it a cornerstone of his arguments. Talking about spirit and un-provable postulates absolutely has its place in rational discourse about philosophy.
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http://soundcloud.com/ufhwhomp like music?
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,297
Loc: Americas
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: oojijimoo]
#15218059 - 10/13/11 06:56 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
Do you understand that there is a left brain and a right brain approach to reality or do you insist everyone MUST take your approach to how things should be?
? I only asked about what you yourself said, man. This has nothing to do with my approach to "how things should be"- I simply asked you about the things you said (and pointed out that I answered the questions you've asked while you haven't done replied to mine).
No, I don't agree with the left-brain/right-brain stuff, and always figured it was mostly garbage based on huge assumptions from limited data, but I don't see what my feelings on that has to do with anything.
Quote:
You are quite prepared to arrogantly dismiss the whole of our species' history of alternative methods of healing because you assume that the only model to be respected is the western medical model. Am I correct?
No. Much of accepted western medicine comes from treatments and drugs dating back to antiquity.
Whether or not something is western or whatever has nothing to do with whether it works. (now that I've answered more of your questions, I'm sure you'll reciprocate and answer mine, right?)
Quote:
Now, I am not claiming it is ALL wrong, but that it is not all super-duper either and that because it is based on a mechanical understanding of the body and mind that there can be much that is missed, like the spiritual aspect to reality for example.
How do you back that up? Seems the medicine used in western societies is mostly a mix of tradition and scientifically-derived knowledge (or assumptions). If you testing a drug or a treatment, what does it matter whether the spirit is involved? If the drug works, does it matter why it works? It could be the spirit or your ancestors or the flying spaghetti monster (p.b.u.h.), but if it works, its used (ignoring politically verboten therapies).
Quote:
guruu said:
icelander you realize that Hegel, the most influential philosopher in Western Civilization (arguably) believed in spirit and found it a cornerstone of his arguments. Talking about spirit and un-provable postulates absolutely has its place in rational discourse about philosophy.
Sure, but I bet icelander would agree with that. The stereotype is just that the mysticism-interested people here tend to get upset when they are asked "why" or aren't believed on faith, which I'd imagine is why icelander phrased his post that way. I agree, of course, that spirit and whatever may be philosophically discussed, it just doesn't seem to occur too often here in practice.
The problem here is zzripz is apparently using this forum to preach, and ask questions and challenge those he disagrees with, but gets upset and whines whenever he is asked a question. Nobody is saying he can't discuss that stuff here, they're saying that if he wants to be King and issue unquestionable edicts he needs to mosey on over somewhere with subjects willing to dutifully obey his decrees.
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: johnm214]
#15218121 - 10/13/11 07:16 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
No. Much of accepted western medicine comes from treatments and drugs dating back to antiquity.
...oh. would that include plants from forests?
Quote:
Whether or not something is western or whatever has nothing to do with whether it works. (now that I've answered more of your questions, I'm sure you'll reciprocate and answer mine, right?)
oh. do YOU respond to every question asked of you?
Quote:
How do you back that up? Seems the medicine used in western societies is mostly a mix of tradition and scientifically-derived knowledge (or assumptions). If you testing a drug or a treatment, what does it matter whether the spirit is involved? If the drug works, does it matter why it works? It could be the spirit or your ancestors or the flying spaghetti monster (p.b.u.h.), but if it works, its used (ignoring politically verboten therapies).
mix of tradition?? Thought it was based on medical science? What tradition you talking about?
They 'test' drugs on animals don't they? Something I find very wrong, and evil. Many drugs just go after symptoms and not root causes--the spiritual meaning and roots of an illness, including the cultural causes of a dis-ease'--are ignored. It can be like a business which seeks to MAINTAIN disease so as to make a profit from it!
How come all of you 'sceptics' will demand to use the term 'flying spaghetti monster'?? Question: who was first 'sceptic' to say that?
'IF it 'works' it works' IS the mechanical model. It is treating people like chemical machines---there is no addressing deeper spiritual issues---what I said from the start!
Quote:
The problem here is zzripz is apparently using this forum to preach, and ask questions and challenge those he disagrees with, but gets upset and whines whenever he is asked a question. Nobody is saying he can't discuss that stuff here, they're saying that if he wants to be King and issue unquestionable edicts he needs to mosey on over somewhere with subjects willing to dutifully obey his decrees
Please do not talk ABOUT me mate. Like I ask again, do YOU ALWAYS respond to questions asked you? Do you NOT get upset? because your tone in most every post seems quite upset to me. Hardly any friendliness or even openmindedness--more akin to bullying. IMPOSING you view on others using a pseudo superior pretence of logical understanding. And errr I dont understand your last bit--not that I care to.
Edited by zzripz (10/13/11 07:26 AM)
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz] 1
#15218178 - 10/13/11 07:32 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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I posted this in another thread but it bears repeating here.
zzripz,
Without the process of making a statement and providing evidence for it if requested, all debates degenerate into schoolyard "DID TOO, did not, DID TOO, did not" noise an no progress is made.
Point of fact, this is a debate forum and the very first sentence of the rules says the following:
"This debate-oriented forum is for the discussion of philosophical ideas that can be backed up with some sort of thoughtful logic and reasoning"
If you can't provide the evidence or line of reasoning that lead to your assertion, then why are you posting here? You should post in the Pub or S&M where people can say anything they want and are under no obligation to substantiate it.
If you continue posting here, you need to get with the program or you won't be posting here any longer. I don't want the forum filled with noise from people saying "neener neener" whenever anyone asks them for substantiation.
John has repeatedly done you the courtesy of answering your questions. Answer his or stop posting here and take it to the S&M forum where substantiation of ones claims is not required.
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: oojijimoo] 2
#15218216 - 10/13/11 07:40 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
guruu said:
icelander you realize that Hegel, the most influential philosopher in Western Civilization (arguably) believed in spirit and found it a cornerstone of his arguments. Talking about spirit and un-provable postulates absolutely has its place in rational discourse about philosophy.
Since when am I seeing rational discourse from Zippy? Not.
Who's Hegel?
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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I consider that an ufair accusation and threat from you--as moderator. So, I reported your post to be met with that they already have been told about this thread and therefore my only recourse is for anyone not happy with a post to pm a moderator---who pray would this moderator be methinks? Should it be someone who is anti shamanism? Orrr someone who respects shamanism and spirituality in general. Over to you mr moderator? Can you recommend anyone please?
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz]
#15218300 - 10/13/11 07:59 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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It doesn't matter one fuck whether or not I'm anti-shaman. What matters is the rules. Follow them or go post where the rules are different.
"Neenwer neener" is not an acceptable rebuttal in this forum and that's all you've done to date.
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid]
#15218337 - 10/13/11 08:06 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
It doesn't matter one fuck whether or not I'm anti-shaman. What matters is the rules. Follow them or go post where the rules are different.
"Neenwer neener" is not an acceptable rebuttal in this forum and that's all you've done to date.
I dont think you are applying the same rules to EVERYONE in this thread equally, especially including the OP! Why didn't you ask/interrogate him or her for evidence for such bold an assertion?
And sorry, what does "Neenwer neener" mean?
Also, you have dodged my question haven't you?Which un-bias moderator--apart from you and J2345 do I report your post to. I bnelieve it is targeting me unfairly--trying to intimidate me, and my right to freedom of speech.
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
Last seen: 11 hours, 22 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid] 1
#15218343 - 10/13/11 08:07 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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at a certain point it really does come down to DID TO. I mean look at all of you ganging up on him like that and he's just defending his ideas, it's really hard to remain calm and thoughtful when you have like SIX PEOPLE doing their best to poke little holes in your argument. Especially when it's quite clear this thread was created for the purpose of arousing the ire of those who don't maintain the mental status quo.
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http://soundcloud.com/ufhwhomp like music?
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zzripz
Stranger
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: oojijimoo]
#15218355 - 10/13/11 08:09 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Thankyou for your support
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
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Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz]
#15218370 - 10/13/11 08:13 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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I mean, please, just checkout the first PAGE?? Do I have to say anything?? And you dont think I am being singled out?
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz]
#15218397 - 10/13/11 08:19 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Why didn't you ask/interrogate him or her for evidence for such bold an assertion?
Because I don't have any questions to ask him.
And sorry, what does "Neenwer neener" mean?
It's a paraphrase of how you've debated so far. When someone asks you for substantiation, you respond with irrelevancies rather than a direct answer.
Also, you have dodged my question haven't you?Which un-bias moderator
I'm the moderator here. And my bias is irrelevant so long as the rules are applied evenly, which they are. If John refuses to answer your questions, let me know and I will tell him the same thing I'm telling you.
Now let's get back on-topic. If you have anything further to discuss that is unrelated to the topic of the thread, send it to me in PM. This thread has been derailed enough.
Let me say it again to make things really clear: if you have anything else to say unrelated to the topic of this thread, send it to me in PM. Going forward, stay on topic and follow the rules or go post elsewhere.
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: oojijimoo] 1
#15218401 - 10/13/11 08:20 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
guruu said:
at a certain point it really does come down to DID TO. I mean look at all of you ganging up on him like that and he's just defending his ideas, it's really hard to remain calm and thoughtful when you have like SIX PEOPLE doing their best to poke little holes in your argument. Especially when it's quite clear this thread was created for the purpose of arousing the ire of those who don't maintain the mental status quo.
Same for you. This is a debate forum and if you have a position that many disagree with they will debate the validity of that position. If you can't handle that emotionally then don't post here. It's really just that simple. In other words quit 
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Quote:
"This debate-oriented forum is for the discussion of philosophical ideas that can be backed up with some sort of thoughtful logic and reasoning"
If you can't provide the evidence or line of reasoning that lead to your assertion, then why are you posting here?
And I am saying, why don't the rules apply to the very original poster then? HE didn't apply any evidence for his LITERALLY one line of 'reasoning'. get me? I have seen threads locked for less. He just makes an assertion from the start.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz] 1
#15218480 - 10/13/11 08:36 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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And I am saying, why don't the rules apply to the very original poster then? HE didn't apply any evidence for his LITERALLY one line of 'reasoning'. get me?
The rules do apply. He wasn't asked any questions.
Now get me. You're taking a break. It's clear that you lack the self-control to follow the rules even when I state them to you TWICE and underlined them once. You've had run-ins with five mods and one admin in your rap sheet so no more warnings.
When you come back, you will be on a short leash. Or feel free not to come back and go post somewhere with simpler rules you can follow.
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid]
#15218521 - 10/13/11 08:46 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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I didn't realize you were so limber dood. I've rarely seen someone bend so far over backwards.
He will not be missed. 
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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mycelial
WA11A! !
Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 85
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15218656 - 10/13/11 09:25 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Well, anyways, I think its a sad and horrible thing that fourteen shamans died. Justbsayin.
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They seemed to be staring at the dark, but their eyes were watching God.
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mycelial
WA11A! !
Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 85
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15218661 - 10/13/11 09:26 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I didn't realize you were so limber dood. I've rarely seen someone bend so far over backwards.
He will not be missed.
!!! Roflrolrofl !!!
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They seemed to be staring at the dark, but their eyes were watching God.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: mycelial]
#15218721 - 10/13/11 09:41 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
mycelial said:
Well, anyways, I think its a sad and horrible thing that fourteen shamans died. Justbsayin.
Everything dies. It's not so sad when you consider the alternative.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
Last seen: 11 hours, 22 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander] 1
#15218746 - 10/13/11 09:46 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
guruu said:
at a certain point it really does come down to DID TO. I mean look at all of you ganging up on him like that and he's just defending his ideas, it's really hard to remain calm and thoughtful when you have like SIX PEOPLE doing their best to poke little holes in your argument. Especially when it's quite clear this thread was created for the purpose of arousing the ire of those who don't maintain the mental status quo.
Same for you. This is a debate forum and if you have a position that many disagree with they will debate the validity of that position. If you can't handle that emotionally then don't post here. It's really just that simple. In other words quit
nah man i won't back down on this, this is a debate forum but i don't think it's arbitrated fairly at all...zzipz is right, the OP was not offering much of an argument at all, it was just a flippant dismissal of an entire mode of thought and being simply on the tragic notion that some shamans were murdered by their government.
I call fascism on this shit. Evidence: on this forum, if you differ from the status quo of opinion (which is clearly held by the moderators and their buddies), then you are talked down to and in general not given the intellectual respect you deserve.
However, it's apparently okay to post threads that have no philosophical content whatsoever and are stupid time wasters. Don't go getting emotional in an argument though...you'll get banned...
I mean, I'm so down to argue about actual PHILOSOPHY like Hegel and Kant and the vast Western intellectual tradition, but things rarely even get to that level here.
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http://soundcloud.com/ufhwhomp like music?
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: oojijimoo] 1
#15218780 - 10/13/11 09:55 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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the OP was not offering much of an argument at all
Then you should demand substantiation instead of whining that he hasn't answered questions you haven't asked.
I'm so down to argue about actual PHILOSOPHY like Hegel and Kant... but things rarely even get to that level here
This from a guy who calls people names as a form of debate.
Now I'm going to tell you the same thing I told Z. Get back on topic. If you have a problem with the moderating, PM me or open a support ticket. This thread has been derailed enough.
I will not tell you again.
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
Last seen: 11 hours, 22 minutes
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i demand substantiation from the OP! Why would knowledge of astral planes give you protection from death across the board?
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http://soundcloud.com/ufhwhomp like music?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: oojijimoo]
#15219284 - 10/13/11 11:50 AM (7 months, 12 days ago) |
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zzipz is not right. The OP statement was up for challenge and anyone is able to do that. Most of OCs threads are pretty lame imo but within the forum guidelines.
I get talked down to all the time while posting. Even in the spiritual forum. I don't take it on. That's all there is to that. If you want someone to kiss your ass I'd suggest you stick to the porn sites.
So if you're so interested in Hegel and Kant then were are the threads you've started and why are you in a thread you think is a waste of time?
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
Last seen: 11 hours, 22 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15219390 - 10/13/11 12:12 PM (7 months, 12 days ago) |
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well i do start threads on them but people think i'm trolling
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http://soundcloud.com/ufhwhomp like music?
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15219434 - 10/13/11 12:18 PM (7 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Most of OCs threads are pretty lame
U hurt'em my feewings.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: oojijimoo] 1
#15219444 - 10/13/11 12:21 PM (7 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
guruu said:
well i do start threads on them but people think i'm trolling
Lame excuse imo. Fail.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Most of OCs threads are pretty lame
U hurt'em my feewings.
That was only part of my intent.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15219459 - 10/13/11 12:23 PM (7 months, 12 days ago) |
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Ever notice that the lamer the thread (up to a point) the greater the participation? 
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This is your drain on brugs.
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
Last seen: 11 hours, 22 minutes
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lame + incendiary = epic thread
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http://soundcloud.com/ufhwhomp like music?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: oojijimoo]
#15220622 - 10/13/11 03:41 PM (7 months, 12 days ago) |
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Just be glad you got to play a major part in it.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
Last seen: 11 hours, 22 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15220953 - 10/13/11 04:39 PM (7 months, 12 days ago) |
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I'm honored
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http://soundcloud.com/ufhwhomp like music?
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detest86
Psychonaut
Registered: 03/08/11
Posts: 571
Last seen: 5 days, 15 hours
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: oojijimoo]
#15221533 - 10/13/11 06:22 PM (7 months, 12 days ago) |
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lol. that means your an alien
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
Last seen: 11 hours, 22 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: detest86]
#15221923 - 10/13/11 07:26 PM (7 months, 12 days ago) |
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now i'm actually honored 
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http://soundcloud.com/ufhwhomp like music?
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Samurai Drifter
Wandering Mindfuck
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 5,042
Loc: Frosted
Last seen: 1 day, 21 hours
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: oojijimoo]
#15222771 - 10/13/11 10:03 PM (7 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
guruu said:
at a certain point it really does come down to DID TO. I mean look at all of you ganging up on him like that and he's just defending his ideas, it's really hard to remain calm and thoughtful when you have like SIX PEOPLE doing their best to poke little holes in your argument. Especially when it's quite clear this thread was created for the purpose of arousing the ire of those who don't maintain the mental status quo.
He's not defending his ideas, though... just saying "I'm right because I feel like I am!" and refusing to substantiate any further.
I mean, I make a lot of claims on here that are fairly widely contested (i.e. perception = matter, there is no such thing as individual consciousness, etc) but always seem to avoid huge flame wars and mod-warnings. I'm guessing that the reason is because I try to back up my claims, rather than accusing everyone else of being unenlightened.
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The obstacle is the path.
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
Last seen: 11 hours, 22 minutes
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well...if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck...it's probably not enlightened!! 
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http://soundcloud.com/ufhwhomp like music?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: oojijimoo]
#15223612 - 10/14/11 03:59 AM (7 months, 12 days ago) |
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So you're not enlightened. We already knew that. But you and Zip mostly do not debate issues here but instead throw out personal opinion as truth and then duck and cover when asked to back it up as truth.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
Last seen: 11 hours, 22 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15224207 - 10/14/11 08:34 AM (7 months, 12 days ago) |
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i don't ever claim to be "enlightened" per se, maybe to just a single very important truth but certainly not in everything i say or do
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http://soundcloud.com/ufhwhomp like music?
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: oojijimoo]
#15224341 - 10/14/11 09:12 AM (7 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
guruu said:
i don't ever claim to be "enlightened" per se, maybe to just a single very important truth...
You mean "I am"? 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2,296
Loc: Chasing the dragon
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Poid]
#15224356 - 10/14/11 09:19 AM (7 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
guruu said:
i don't ever claim to be "enlightened" per se, maybe to just a single very important truth...
You mean "I am"?
The most important one.
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: oojijimoo] 2
#15224371 - 10/14/11 09:25 AM (7 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
guruu said:
i don't ever claim to be "enlightened" per se, maybe to just a single very important truth but certainly not in everything i say or do
As usual you pick on some unimportant part of my post and refuse to address the issue at hand. At least you're consistent.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
Last seen: 11 hours, 22 minutes
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Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
guruu said:
i don't ever claim to be "enlightened" per se, maybe to just a single very important truth...
You mean "I am"?
The most important one.
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http://soundcloud.com/ufhwhomp like music?
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Samurai Drifter
Wandering Mindfuck
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 5,042
Loc: Frosted
Last seen: 1 day, 21 hours
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: oojijimoo]
#15224883 - 10/14/11 11:47 AM (7 months, 11 days ago) |
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I know it's possible to support your view with logic, though. Which makes me wonder why you refuse to do it... as it would probably be more effective.
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The obstacle is the path.
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
Last seen: 11 hours, 22 minutes
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Ya know I try, and I'm taking an existentialism class right now so maybe i'll get better at it. But for me it was not really a logical quest to arrive at it...it was a very emotional journey, it's like I arrived at an existential truth through necessity, so any logic i apply is in retrospect, and ultimately completely unnecessary. Most of the time i try to appeal to an intuition deep within someone, because whether or not you accept what I say logically I can still hope to resonate with something behind your logical mind.
Like mooji for instance, is not interested in pacifying your thinking, planning mind. He's interested in getting directly to the heart of the matter.
And ya ya this is a debate forum, so i understand the annoyance, but.....
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http://soundcloud.com/ufhwhomp like music?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: oojijimoo]
#15225820 - 10/14/11 03:30 PM (7 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
guruu said:
Ya know I try, and I'm taking an existentialism class right now so maybe i'll get better at it. But for me it was not really a logical quest to arrive at it...it was a very emotional journey, it's like I arrived at an existential truth through necessity, so any logic i apply is in retrospect, and ultimately completely unnecessary. Most of the time i try to appeal to an intuition deep within someone, because whether or not you accept what I say logically I can still hope to resonate with something behind your logical mind.
Like mooji for instance, is not interested in pacifying your thinking, planning mind. He's interested in getting directly to the heart of the matter.
And ya ya this is a debate forum, so i understand the annoyance, but.....
This is exactly how the door to door Christians work it.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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desert father
Stranger
Registered: 07/17/10
Posts: 851
Last seen: 1 day, 1 hour
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why do you act like death is considered a punishment by "ancestors" as you put it?
could this really be a gift?
to all leave physical awareness together?
could an ancestor get in the way of destiny?
is true wisdom really just the knowledge that death is not to be feared?
maybe that's what they were practicing...and seeing how all of us westerners so easily succumb to death anxiety, maybe that wisdom was a real gift after all, huh?
i can see how that may be beyond your scope of consideration, as you are just another man scared of death.
nothing special here folks, same shit different day.
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i'm a loser and a user so i don't need no accuser
Edited by desert father (10/14/11 04:00 PM)
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15225955 - 10/14/11 03:59 PM (7 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
guruu said:
Ya know I try, and I'm taking an existentialism class right now so maybe i'll get better at it. But for me it was not really a logical quest to arrive at it...it was a very emotional journey, it's like I arrived at an existential truth through necessity, so any logic i apply is in retrospect, and ultimately completely unnecessary. Most of the time i try to appeal to an intuition deep within someone, because whether or not you accept what I say logically I can still hope to resonate with something behind your logical mind.
Like mooji for instance, is not interested in pacifying your thinking, planning mind. He's interested in getting directly to the heart of the matter.
And ya ya this is a debate forum, so i understand the annoyance, but.....
This is exactly how the door to door Christians work it.
the last door to door Christian salesman i talked to was this chill black guy, i gave him the time of day so he came back a few weeks later and we had a discussion, i was talking about eastern philosophies and how i felt they gave me greater freedom, my friend runs out while i'm saying this and gives me some bacon he had just made the guys wife was pretty hot too, she stood quietly in the background but i could tell she was very thoughtful about the whole thing. I read their pamphlets and actually i see a faire amount of truth in them, it's just completely back asswards in some behavioral regards in my opinion, but if it works for them that's great.
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http://soundcloud.com/ufhwhomp like music?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: oojijimoo]
#15226254 - 10/14/11 05:01 PM (7 months, 11 days ago) |
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They think you're going to hell if you don't believe what they believe, but if it works for them.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15226382 - 10/14/11 05:28 PM (7 months, 11 days ago) |
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Well I dont take it personally
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http://soundcloud.com/ufhwhomp like music?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: oojijimoo]
#15226663 - 10/14/11 06:27 PM (7 months, 11 days ago) |
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You're going to hell and you don't take that personally? 
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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detest86
Psychonaut
Registered: 03/08/11
Posts: 571
Last seen: 5 days, 15 hours
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15228300 - 10/15/11 03:23 AM (7 months, 11 days ago) |
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icelander, highlander?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: detest86]
#15228350 - 10/15/11 04:20 AM (7 months, 11 days ago) |
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--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
Last seen: 11 hours, 22 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15228754 - 10/15/11 08:06 AM (7 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
You're going to hell and you don't take that personally?
not at tall 
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http://soundcloud.com/ufhwhomp like music?
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Quote:
why do you act like death is considered a punishment by "ancestors" as you put it?
could this really be a gift?
We were talking about a simple concept of protection. I asked one of the neighbor children and she understood it. She said it is when someone prevents you from getting hurt.
These common words really trouble some people here for reasons unknown.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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desert father
Stranger
Registered: 07/17/10
Posts: 851
Last seen: 1 day, 1 hour
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neighbor children?
i'm assuming you were talking to children who had an idea about what they were saying?
i mean spirituality is a subjective experience which changes with each individuals' interpretation, so assuming children understood exactly each shamans state of mind would be the same as assuming all christians hold the same values.
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i'm a loser and a user so i don't need no accuser
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Samurai Drifter
Wandering Mindfuck
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15229211 - 10/15/11 10:38 AM (7 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
This is exactly how the door to door Christians work it.
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The obstacle is the path.
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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Shamans are said to gain protection with their practice; but this does not preclude: fake shamans, newer/ineffective shamans, shamans not practicing for protection, and shamans going into their deaths wilfully.
Blessings.
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All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
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Samurai Drifter
Wandering Mindfuck
Registered: 08/24/09
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Loc: Frosted
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15231558 - 10/15/11 09:23 PM (7 months, 10 days ago) |
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That may be true, but I have never seen any proof that any shamans have ever gained any protection through their practice. And since shamans have been around for thousands of years, you would think there would be some reliable evidence.
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The obstacle is the path.
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yeah
Registered: 02/07/09
Posts: 353
Last seen: 1 day, 10 hours
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
That may be true, but I have never seen any proof that any shamans have ever gained any protection through their practice. And since shamans have been around for thousands of years, you would think there would be some reliable evidence.
what kind of 'proof' are you looking for?
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I hope this is the dark part of the night which is generally just before day.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: yeah] 4
#15232943 - 10/16/11 08:42 AM (7 months, 10 days ago) |
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Not being murdered would be a starting point. That is how the Witness Protection Program gauges success.
WPP Boss to Agent Jones: That is the fourth witness you have lost this year!
Agent Jones: Sir, doesn't it all depend on how you define 'protect'? Doesn't all life eventually end?
WPP Boss: Clear out your desk. You're fired!
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This is your drain on brugs.
Edited by OrgoneConclusion (10/16/11 09:04 AM)
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,297
Loc: Americas
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Quote:
yeah said:
Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
That may be true, but I have never seen any proof that any shamans have ever gained any protection through their practice. And since shamans have been around for thousands of years, you would think there would be some reliable evidence.
what kind of 'proof' are you looking for?
I never get these kinds of posts that people make. Why would it be presumed that the person:
a) is looking for a paritcular "kind" of proof, or evidence,or
b) it matters what the person "is looking for"?
If it doesn't matter, which seems to be the case, then of what relevance is the post?
I see these kinds of strange replies often in this forum and I never get what the point of them is, or why people or making them. How could the answer to the question matter? Its not like someone's arbitrary preferences have any bearing on the matter under discussion (whether some phenomena is proven, established, whatever)
Quote:
desert father said:
why do you act like death is considered a punishment by "ancestors" as you put it?
could this really be a gift?
to all leave physical awareness together?
could an ancestor get in the way of destiny?
Why do you presume he acted like death is considered a punishment by ancestors? Far as I can tell, his point had nothing to do with that: the point was meerly that a bunch of shamans were killed by other people, and there is no evidence that their 'powers' had any effect on that.
Maybe their ancestors consider death to be the planet jupiter, who cares? They're still dead and, hence, were not protected from the assault.
Quote:
i can see how that may be beyond your scope of consideration, as you are just another man scared of death.
What you think of the poster is irrelevant. Keep this kinda shit to yourself or PM. And read the rules
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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Written medical records in the forest might be a fairly sparce I imagine: and the "suvey size" of 14 (in which the incidents may all be related to one major causal event)is not a great test in the view of what could be termed my scientific mind.
Interesting idea; however: the recording of an array of entheogen-worker natives health/lifespans in relation to their non-commonly entheogen/plant-medicine using tribe members.
Blessings.
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All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
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Samurai Drifter
Wandering Mindfuck
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 5,042
Loc: Frosted
Last seen: 1 day, 21 hours
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15233610 - 10/16/11 11:53 AM (7 months, 9 days ago) |
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If no information is available on the issue (which I think it probably is; I don't think it would be beyond a group of anthropologists to figure out the average life expectancy of a couple thousand shamans), then why should you believe that they have extraordinary powers that no other human seems to be able to demonstrate?
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The obstacle is the path.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15233929 - 10/16/11 01:19 PM (7 months, 9 days ago) |
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Written medical records in the forest might be a fairly sparce I imagine
Let's say we grant this is true.
If that is insufficient evidence to conclude that shamans in fact have no protection, then based on what larger sample would one conclude that they DO in fact have magical protection?
There is no reason to think that shamans are anything other than delusional given that 1) there is zero evidence that they have magical protection and 2) there is sparse evidence (the 14 dead guys) that they don't. On the whole, it looks a lot more like they don't than they do.
You can't have it both ways, yo.
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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crumblebum
I DISAGREE
Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,025
Last seen: 7 months, 5 days
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It defense of the shamans, they probably aren't outright hucksters like some of their european and north american counterparts. In a preindustrial society, which I'm assuming the "Shawi" ethnic group in Peru is because I can't find any other info on them, a born and bred shaman has no reason not to believe his powers and visions are real, because he lacks the nonlocal experience and communication that we enjoy, and serves a variety of functions outside of "magic", usually filling the roles of a tribal historian, counselor, match maker, etc.
My point is this, if I may be allowed to take a Guns, Germs, and Steel approach to it, is that these shamans aren't idiots, and are likely some of the smarter people in their communities. They simply don't have the perspective or scientific advancement to see why some of their remedies work and some don't. Were they raised in an industrial society, they would most likely be academics or professionals of some kind.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: crumblebum]
#15234157 - 10/16/11 02:10 PM (7 months, 9 days ago) |
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I agree, they are not the ancient superiors that the new agers here try and make them out to be.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,297
Loc: Americas
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: crumblebum]
#15234233 - 10/16/11 02:26 PM (7 months, 9 days ago) |
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Sure, I would imagine this to be the case. But then again, I think this is generally the case with most mystical beliefs. The religious really do believe the nonsense they spout (though only when convieniant), the alien-UFO people really believe they saw aliens, et cet.
Its a common retort amongst the conspiracy people to suggest: "you don't really think all these witnesses are lying, do you"? I doubt it. People are highly emotional, and you believe what is emotionally pleasing unless you guard against that kind of thinking.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: crumblebum]
#15234252 - 10/16/11 02:29 PM (7 months, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
It defense of the shamans, they probably aren't outright hucksters like some of their european and north american counterparts.
Native American shamans are hucksters and rain forest shamans are not. Wonderful!
To say what someone would have become having been raised in a totally different environment is as meaningless as it is unsubstantiated.
You certainly present a strong case.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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crumblebum
I DISAGREE
Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,025
Last seen: 7 months, 5 days
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: johnm214]
#15234390 - 10/16/11 02:58 PM (7 months, 9 days ago) |
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While it is absolutely true that people gravitate towards the ideas that make them happiest, there is still a difference between ethnic spiritualism and adopted spiritualism. When someone adopts the cultural/spiritual beliefs of another society, or just a different set within there own, it was a decision with the knowledge that there are alternatives.
In the case of a Shawi shaman in the backwoods of Peru and those who come to him for guidance, it's much less likely that they consider it a choice they made so much as the regular order of things. You wouldn't abandon shoes for teleportation machines, because it's not an option that's available. If you could you would, but no dice, it's just not there for you to choose. I suppose a better example would be this: it is perfectly likely that a protestant convert Buddhist in New York has a wholly earnest and genuine belief, but it is qualitatively dissimilar to the belief held by a pentecostal snake handler raised in appalachia. To the NY kid, Buddhism was one of many possibilities to consider, to the hillbilly, it is unquestionable fact.
Now for Orgone
Native American shamans are hucksters and rain forest shamans are not. Wonderful!
To say what someone would have become having been raised in a totally different environment is as meaningless as it is unsubstantiated.
Oh yeah, I forgot about amerindians. Touche. Major point.
I didn't SAY what they might have been, I speculated. It's substantiated by the fact that in their current environment they successfully remember and implement an enormous body of facts and ideas on a day to day basis, often without the aid of written reference. It's meaningfulness is to illustrate that these people aren't idiots, they simply aren't in a position to know better.
Don't get me wrong, murder is hillarious, and always moreso in south america, where you can still find pro witch hunters.
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: crumblebum]
#15238907 - 10/17/11 02:01 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
why should you believe that they have extraordinary powers that no other human seems to be able to demonstrate?
-Samurai Drifter
I don't what one should belive... But this guy doesn't even claim to be a "Shaman" or anything of the sort:
Quote:
...based on what larger sample would one conclude that they DO in fact have magical protection?
There is no reason to think that shamans are anything other than delusional given that 1) there is zero evidence that they have magical protection and 2) there is sparse evidence (the 14 dead guys) that they don't. On the whole, it looks a lot more like they don't than they do.
-Diploid
With the batch of sample data given in this thread; you seem correct, however as I previously stated there is issue with the scientific value of the sample data points given in their all being related to one general causal event.
Perhaps as anthropologists gather more data and/or we expand our sample data pool; more accurate and statistically significant result might be found. My guess is the likelyhood that this will occur is small as I am not planning on digging up much if any more information for this thread; and it seems most posters that have been active in it are happy with their conclusions and therefore not likely to want to expand upon this idea.
That's just the way it goes. There is not much genuine scientific experiment on "shamanic magic/divination/protection" published in commonly-accepted peer-reviewed scientific journals and it does not appear likely in the near future, perhaps for lack of interest.
Independent research is ongoing...
Blessings.
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All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
Edited by flickedbic (10/17/11 02:14 PM)
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15238964 - 10/17/11 02:13 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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There is not much genuine scientific experiment on "shamanic magic/divination/protection" published in commonly-accepted peer-reviewed scientific journals and it does not appear likely in the near future, perhaps for lack of interest.
Don't you think that's odd given that anyone who shows with statistical certainty that shaman have magical powers will instantly become perhaps the richest and most famous scientist in history? Having changed the entire paradigm for ever and proven countless skeptics wrong?
Lack of interest in that? Really?
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid]
#15239000 - 10/17/11 02:22 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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It may go beyond lack of interest into a vested interest in maintainance of the status quo and not upsetting entrenched thought paradigm.
That may be an exiting concept for some, like Dr. Puharich; whose video I provided in the above post, but he certainly did not become the most wealthy and famous scientist. Indeed; this has proven nothing... even evolution is still a theory. Dr. Puharich may be more famous than he was; but I dunno where the wealth would come in for any scientists that shows truth in shamanic magic.
Maybe the shaman it was proven with would become very famous and wealthy... but in the above example; the "divining" was from a combo of an average joe and a handfull of the little ones. I have an intuition that is the only way this sort of thing will ever become accepted... One life-changing experience at a time.
Even the best evidence of certain phenomenon will be seen with skepticism, and indeed should be, untill it is finally proven to one beyond doubt on a personal level.
Blessings.
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All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
Edited by flickedbic (10/17/11 02:35 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic] 1
#15239385 - 10/17/11 03:42 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
even evolution is still a theory
What exactly does that mean?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic] 1
#15239556 - 10/17/11 04:24 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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even evolution is still a theory
Everything in science is a theory. The "atomic theory" incinerated Hiroshima. Did you know that? How can someone with not even that elementary education about science have the gall to critique it?
a vested interest in maintainance of the status quo
Really? Scientists would rather toil in obscurity than destroy the status quo and join the likes of Einstein and Newton creating a new branch of scientific inquiry? I don't buy it.
like Dr. Puharich; whose video I provided in the above post, but he certainly did not become the most wealthy and famous scientist.
Given that the sloppy, non-blinded protocol exhibited in that video renders his results meaningless, I'm not surprised. Had he produced results using a properly controlled and blinded study, his name would be known around the world today. In fact, ANYONE, who can reproduce the results claimed in that video under a proper controlled and blinded protocol will become instantly rich and famous. For starters, that person would win the JREF million dollar prize (and I'd become his first groupie).
If you believe that video, why don't you do it? You know what? I will pay for your airline ticket, hotel, rental car, and food to come to Florida and demonstrate those results at JREF if you can do it for the pretest (which is administered where you live). So, will you do it? What are you waiting for?
Note to audience: he has absolutely nothing to lose and a million dollars, changing the world, and a nice Florida vacation to gain, but he will not even apply. Not even APPLY! Mark my words.
Prove me wrong. Please. Nothing would make me happier than to be at the epicenter of a world-changing discovery. However, I expect to be disappointed.
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid]
#15239709 - 10/17/11 04:57 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
even evolution is still a theory
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What exactly does that mean?
That altho there is evidence for it (and many scientists suscribe to evolution); it is still not-accepted as fact.
Quote:
...a vested interest in maintainance of the status quo
Really? Scientists would rather toil in obscurity then destroy the status quo and join the likes of Einstein and Newton creating a new branch of scientific inquiry? I don't buy it.
I am speaking of the uncomfortability of stepping outside of ones' accepted world-view. The upsetting of ones' mental status quo by seriously considering efficacy of "voodoo-heebie-jeebie" shamanism.
Quote:
So, will you do it? What are you waiting for?
Note to audience: he has absolutely nothing to lose and a million dollars (plus changing the world) to gain, but he will not even apply. Not even APPLY!
I will do it upon the condition that I first work with a partner and can somewhat reproduce the test results of the above video. I don't want to waste anyones' time if the little ones' don't work in lending me (increased) E.S.P.
Quote:
Test your power at home, in a controlled setting like the one described in your protocol. Bring along skeptics, too. It is best to be able to demonstrate your ability reliably before you apply.
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/component/content/article/37-static/254-jref-challenge-faq.html
That really is a very kind offer Diploid, I truly appreciate it. I will reimburse you if I do get paid a million FRN's for answering the JREF Challenge.
That said, I don't know if even doing as good as the video would be proof enough to win the JREF prize; their rules as to judging are somewhat vague... what MIGHT happen:
"Okay, flickedbic, you said that mystery picture A was "powerful, fast, and loud". That is incorrect. The awnser was "waterfall".
You said mystery picture B was "two faces, looking in opposite directions". That is incorrect. The awnser was "Madonna and her baby"..."
I'm still down to give it a shot; where legal. It may be a fun experiment at the very least!
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15239773 - 10/17/11 05:08 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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You won't do it imo, no matter what you say here. That's just to save face.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15239792 - 10/17/11 05:11 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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it is still not-accepted as fact
Nothing in science is accepted as fact. The atomic theory that incinerated Hiroshima is not accepted as fact. That's why it's called the atomic theory.
their rules as to judging are somewhat vague
Uh no. Have you read the FAQ? The rules are what YOU SAY the rules are. This is agreed to in writing in advanced. Whatever you say the test is, that's what it is. The only requirement the JREF will insist on is that the you can't cheat, and the results are not subject to interpretation. They are evident on the face of the experiment. Here's an example protocol:
A 6-sided die will be rolled inside a dice cage (not by hand) in full view 10 times. The claimant wins the prize if he guesses the roll in advance 8 or more times.
The end. So you see, there is no interpretation. No one is the judge. The protocol must be such that you either win or don't win and the result is self-evident.
That said, I don't know if even doing as good as the video
 Blah, blah, blah. Now begins page after page of why you can't do what you say you can do. How it's too much trouble (even with a million bucks to win). How you're too busy (even though getting rich would give you all the time in the world). And so on...
Note to audience: told ya so.
But prove me wrong. I'll apologize and win or not, you'll have my respect as the VERY FIRST Shroomerite with magic powers in the 10 years I've been here to go any farther than loading the JREF web.
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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cateyes
Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 2,753
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i experimented with dmt only once so far... i smoked it... it was extremely intense... not sure if i'll ever do it again though... i became friendly with a guy on Utube after watching a few of his vids... he believes the manna refereed to in the bible is really psilocybin mushrooms... one night a few of were in chat in stickam and i mentioned i always wanted to try ayahuasca in a legitimate ceremony under shaman guidance... turns out he and his wife(a native urarinan from the amazon basin) are visiting peru the first two weeks of december... he invited me to come along... i told him that i read about the MANY reported instances where native peruvians were ripping off tourists searching for the experience by claiming to be shamans(it's fairly easy to whip up a batch of ayahuasca)... i told him i was concerned about this but he promised me he could hook me up... i would have to leave my wife and children alone for that period and would have to take a partial paid leave from work since i already have used up most of my available vacation time... my wife bugs out anytime i mention it, she's fearful and is worried that something might happen to me while i'm down there... i'm glad i have time to think about it more and persuade my wife that everything will be cool...
i started thinking about how native cultures were able to identify the plants and fungi that were psychoactive and incorporate them into their cultures as far back to the age of 14 when i first began to trip... after doing alot of reading over time i've come to believe that they evolved along with us for a reason... just like fruits and vegetables... how is it nature knew enough to produce them in order to satisfy our body needs for vitamins and minerals... i've read the thread and noticed there are alot of skeptics... it will always be hard to convince someone once their mind has been made up... and it will always be hard to try and integrate elements of mysticism and science(except for maybe buddhism)... you either open up to the possibilities or you don't, it's as simple as that...
Kensho 
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: cateyes]
#15239926 - 10/17/11 05:43 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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how is it nature knew enough to produce them in order to satisfy our body needs for vitamins and minerals
The same way nature knew enough to produce petroleum in order to satisfy our culture's energy needs.
Your statement is so profoundly ignorant of the most basic elementary-school level biology that I have to hope it's a joke even though I know it's not. Humans are doomed.
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: cateyes]
#15240032 - 10/17/11 06:02 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Have you read the FAQ? The rules are what YOU SAY the rules are. This is agreed to in writing in advanced. Whatever you say the test is, that's what it is.
I disagree:
Quote:
Neither the Foundation nor the claimant can force a testing procedure without the approval of the other side. The testing procedure is a negotiation, and no one can put their foot down. If at any time it a deadlock is reached, the application process will be terminated, and neither side will be blamed or considered at fault.
That is fine, however. I would have it no other way. The card test seems to be most scientifically measurable.
Quote:
Blah, blah, blah. Now begins page after page of why you can't do what you say you can do. How it's too much trouble (even with a million bucks to win). How you're too busy (even though getting rich would give you all the time in the world). And so on...
Note to audience: told ya so.
Ha ha!
Quote:
...reading over time i've come to believe that they evolved along with us for a reason... just like fruits and vegetables...
Quote:
how is it nature knew enough to produce them in order to satisfy our body needs for vitamins and minerals
The same way nature knew enough to produce petroleum in order to satisfy our culture's energy needs.
Your statement is so profoundly ignorant of the most basic elementary-school level biology that I have to hope it's a joke even though I know it's not. Humans are doomed.
I hope this retort on petroleum is a joke... if not I will point out why it made me laugh.
At the very leasto you not believe that mans' usage of plants aids their proliferation, even before farming? Or that healthy or psychoactive plants aid the proliferation or mental stimulation of men who are wise to that plant and the use thereof,
Is co-evolution (where two different living species help each other adapt and evolve by influencing each other) just not a scientifically plausible idea in your view?
http://brianaltonenmph.com/natural-sciences/4-projects/plantae-the-evolution-of-plant-chemicals/co-evolution-man-and-plants/
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
Edited by flickedbic (10/17/11 06:16 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15240044 - 10/17/11 06:05 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
even evolution is still a theory
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What exactly does that mean?
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That altho there is evidence for it (and many scientists suscribe to evolution); it is still not-accepted as fact.
Even after Diploid patiently explained it to you, you are still unable to grasp this basic scientific tenet?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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I will say that "All I know is that I know nothing"; what is your point?
Quote:
Everything in science is a theory.
-Diploid
I am assuming this is the "patient explanation" you were referring to?
What is it that I have failed to grasp and how do you know I have failed to grasp it?
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
Edited by flickedbic (10/17/11 06:32 PM)
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: cateyes]
#15240124 - 10/17/11 06:23 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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he invited me to come along... i told him that i read about the MANY reported instances where native peruvians were ripping off tourists
Uhm... not to put you off or anything, but a crazy old guy I know sent me this today:
Fears that a German tourist has been killed and eaten by cannibals on a remote island in French Polynesia have surfaced after a week-long hunt for his remains.
Stefan Ramin, a German 40-year-old business adviser went missing shortly after arranging to go on a traditional goat hunt with a local guide on the island of Nuku Hiva In French Polynesia last month. It was the last time that Heike Dorsch, his girlfriend, says that she saw him.
According to Dorsch, the local guide, Henri Haiti, returned from the forest without Ramin, telling her there had been an accident. Dorsch claims that when she tried to run to find help, Haiti chained her to a tree and abused her. It was only hours later that she unchained herself and alerted authorities. Last week, a squad of 22 police officers found camp fire ashes containing human remains, including a jaw bone and teeth. According to the Daily Mail, investigators believe that the "human body was hacked to pieces and burned".
The German newspaper, Bild, reported a prosecutor believed "the probability is that he was murdered by a cannibal and parts of him were eaten". But police have denied the claims of cannibalism. Nuku Hiva is historically known for cannibalism, but the practice was thought to have ceased. Deborah Kimitete, the deputy mayor, told local news: "No one can believe what has happened. It's horrible." Testing will take place in Paris to conclude whether the ashes are those of Ramin, but French chief investigator, José Thorel, said it could take weeks. Haiti is still missing. Soldiers from the French overseas territory have joined the police hunt to track him down.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/17/cannibals-may-have-eaten-_n_1015021.html
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid]
#15240165 - 10/17/11 06:30 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Note to audience: told ya so.
You didn't have to tell me, I already knew what was going to happen.
--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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cateyes
Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 2,753
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 Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid]
#15240199 - 10/17/11 06:37 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
how is it nature knew enough to produce them in order to satisfy our body needs for vitamins and minerals
The same way nature knew enough to produce petroleum in order to satisfy our culture's energy needs.
Your statement is so profoundly ignorant of the most basic elementary-school level biology that I have to hope it's a joke even though I know it's not. Humans are doomed.
i accept evolution as a fact... i believe nature is perfect. that nature was able to evolve in order to sustain itself(until we began to abuse it) how does my statement violate rules of " the most basic elementary-school level biology"? please explain. you look at it from a strictly science point of view... good for you... i learned it is better to mix it up...
i worked at a fortune 500 pharmaceutical for six years... at one point they had two labs dedicated to study the cancer fighting and auto-immune enhancement properties of two mushrooms... their eventual goal is to develop a molecule that is slightly different from the one found in nature so that they can apply for patent and make tons of money... why not just isolate the natural compounds or better yet encourage us to eat the mushrooms(assuming they're not poisonous)? there are thousands of plants being studied for applications on hundreds of diseases... i think that's fucking awesome! i see a beauty in that... you don't... it's that simple... why does the shroomery have someone like yourself moderating a forum on "Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology"? it makes no sense, you're too closed minded... you'd be much better off moderating OTD... i think it's you who shows their ignorance because your mind has been shut... i think it's sad... you may be right, humans may be doomed...
you said: "The same way nature knew enough to produce petroleum in order to satisfy our culture's energy needs." are you saying by accident and we learned how to exploit that accident? if that's the case, i say there are no accidents in nature... what are you suggesting? it's unclear...
don't forget to tell me how what i said was "so profoundly ignorant of the most basic elementary-school level biology"
Kensho
Edited by cateyes (10/18/11 01:01 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid]
#15240200 - 10/17/11 06:37 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
he invited me to come along... i told him that i read about the MANY reported instances where native peruvians were ripping off tourists
Uhm... not to put you off or anything, but a crazy old guy I know sent me this today:
Fears that a German tourist has been killed and eaten by cannibals on a remote island in French Polynesia have surfaced after a week-long hunt for his remains.
Stefan Ramin, a German 40-year-old business adviser went missing shortly after arranging to go on a traditional goat hunt with a local guide on the island of Nuku Hiva In French Polynesia last month. It was the last time that Heike Dorsch, his girlfriend, says that she saw him.
According to Dorsch, the local guide, Henri Haiti, returned from the forest without Ramin, telling her there had been an accident. Dorsch claims that when she tried to run to find help, Haiti chained her to a tree and abused her. It was only hours later that she unchained herself and alerted authorities. Last week, a squad of 22 police officers found camp fire ashes containing human remains, including a jaw bone and teeth. According to the Daily Mail, investigators believe that the "human body was hacked to pieces and burned".
The German newspaper, Bild, reported a prosecutor believed "the probability is that he was murdered by a cannibal and parts of him were eaten". But police have denied the claims of cannibalism. Nuku Hiva is historically known for cannibalism, but the practice was thought to have ceased. Deborah Kimitete, the deputy mayor, told local news: "No one can believe what has happened. It's horrible." Testing will take place in Paris to conclude whether the ashes are those of Ramin, but French chief investigator, José Thorel, said it could take weeks. Haiti is still missing. Soldiers from the French overseas territory have joined the police hunt to track him down.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/17/cannibals-may-have-eaten-_n_1015021.html
I'd never trust anything I got from a crazy guy.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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cateyes
Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 2,753
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid]
#15240218 - 10/17/11 06:41 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
he invited me to come along... i told him that i read about the MANY reported instances where native peruvians were ripping off tourists
Uhm... not to put you off or anything, but a crazy old guy I know sent me this today:
Fears that a German tourist has been killed and eaten by cannibals on a remote island in French Polynesia have surfaced after a week-long hunt for his remains.
Stefan Ramin, a German 40-year-old business adviser went missing shortly after arranging to go on a traditional goat hunt with a local guide on the island of Nuku Hiva In French Polynesia last month. It was the last time that Heike Dorsch, his girlfriend, says that she saw him.
According to Dorsch, the local guide, Henri Haiti, returned from the forest without Ramin, telling her there had been an accident. Dorsch claims that when she tried to run to find help, Haiti chained her to a tree and abused her. It was only hours later that she unchained herself and alerted authorities. Last week, a squad of 22 police officers found camp fire ashes containing human remains, including a jaw bone and teeth. According to the Daily Mail, investigators believe that the "human body was hacked to pieces and burned".
The German newspaper, Bild, reported a prosecutor believed "the probability is that he was murdered by a cannibal and parts of him were eaten". But police have denied the claims of cannibalism. Nuku Hiva is historically known for cannibalism, but the practice was thought to have ceased. Deborah Kimitete, the deputy mayor, told local news: "No one can believe what has happened. It's horrible." Testing will take place in Paris to conclude whether the ashes are those of Ramin, but French chief investigator, José Thorel, said it could take weeks. Haiti is still missing. Soldiers from the French overseas territory have joined the police hunt to track him down.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/17/cannibals-may-have-eaten-_n_1015021.html
one of a number of reasons why my wife is worried and doesn't want me to go...
Kensho
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Poid]
#15240228 - 10/17/11 06:43 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Note to audience: told ya so.
-Diploid
Assume much?
Still awaiting answers from Diploid and OrgoneConclusion... non-response will be deemed aquiescence.
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15240255 - 10/17/11 06:49 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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Already answered twice; enough for a person of normal intelligence.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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My kingdom for whoever knows what ^that guy is talking about.
O.K. I just read thru the thread again. Me and Diploid agreed that even very accepted occurances are scientifically seen as "theory".
What exactly are you adding on this topic Orgone?
We are still waiting on Diploid to substantiate his/her views on (co)evolution.
I don't mean to sound curt, I just aim to get at the heart of the matter.
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
Edited by flickedbic (10/17/11 07:08 PM)
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15240336 - 10/17/11 07:07 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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Let's do one step at a time. You have a JREF application on your plate. How about you finish that before you ask for a second helping, eh?
I'll check back in a few weeks to see if I should get my checkbook out and reserve a nice suite for you on South Beach.
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15240355 - 10/17/11 07:11 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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Diploid is good for it dude. You are going to look very silly if you find some silly excuse not to take an iron clad offer like this. But you won't. No one does cause no body can do it. Man would I love to get my hands on a million bucks. Just think of all the people I could help with that kind of money.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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flickedbic
Sojourner
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 591
Loc: California, Maryland
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid]
#15240366 - 10/17/11 07:14 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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Ha ha agreed. Let others do the grilling... or not. I've gotta get SWIM trunks!
Seriously, I really do appreciate everyone at this site: you guys are great.
Forget my questions if you will; everyone, without beeing deemed aquiescent.
I apologize if I responded curtly.
"we should call ourselves the febreze brothers, because I smell a fresh start".
Blessings.
--------------------
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.
Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.
"All I know is that I know nothing". -Socrates
Without prejudice.
Edited by flickedbic (10/17/11 07:24 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15240739 - 10/17/11 08:44 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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 bye
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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cateyes
Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 2,753
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15241708 - 10/18/11 02:04 AM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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my response to the author of this threads original post...
"He said that the murder suspects had sought to "legitimise the killings " by blaming the victims for the high level of infant mortality in the area."
they seem just too superstitious to me... that's like me blaming my neighbor because my garden was unproductive this year...
"As early as the 16th century, Spanish and Portuguese missionaries described its use by native people in the Amazon as the work of the devil."(referring to ayahuasca)
it could be said that the christian influence on peru(and other areas of the world) is more the "work of the devil" then the shamans use of ayahuasca...
"that's an expression of how fragmented and racist this country is. a centralised country which continues to look at its interior with total indifference."
christian influence seems to have done that alot to cultures throughout history right up until today for some reason... it has been used to mold cultures into becoming compliant... this eventually opens the door of exploitation, where lumber, minerals and now water are are stolen...
"he alleged that the mayor, who is an evangelical Christian, ordered the killings on hearing that the shamans planned to form an association. he said the mayor's brother was known in the area as a matabrujos or witch killer."
hmmmm... a christian witch killer(what does that position pay an hour?)... i wonder what jesus would do? all this in the name of a loving god... we can't have shamans organizing themselves, it might upset the balance of power!
"for protestant sects, the shamans are possessed by the devil; a totally sectarian, primitive and racist concept," he said."
i also agree with this statement...
"the death of these shamans represents not just a tragic loss of life, but the loss of a huge body of knowledge about rainforest plants and the crucial role shamans play in traditional medicine and spiritual guidance in indigenous communities."
i agree...
it unfortunate these shamans had to die this way and for these reasons... yeah, it is ironic that they weren't warned through "visions" that this all was about to go down... maybe their great spirit wanted them to come home... who knows...
edit: i don't have a problem with christians as individuals... my wife and i have several good christian friends we mix it up with... we've had conversations about their faith but they have never attempted to push it on us... i do have a problem with the church and it's bible and the way that religion has been used to exploit others... i also have a problem with members of the church who tell me that i and others are sinners and will spend eternity in hell when we die... i completely cut them out of my life... who wants to hear this all the time?
Kensho
Edited by cateyes (10/18/11 08:40 AM)
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desert father
Stranger
Registered: 07/17/10
Posts: 851
Last seen: 1 day, 1 hour
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: johnm214]
#15243899 - 10/18/11 04:24 PM (7 months, 7 days ago) |
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it matters whether death was presumed to be a horrific outcome because who said they were to be protected from death? that's my point.
like you said, "they're still dead"...so why do YOU think that death should have been avoided? it matters because if they really had no fear of death, there was no reason to be protected from it.
i think that the poster thought death to be a punishment because he said - "So much for second sight and warnings from dead ancestors"
as if dead ancestors were used for protection from death...now you get it?
if i believe a person is viewing a certain situation with a skewed perception, then i'd say he was unable to view this situation with objective consideration.
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i'm a loser and a user so i don't need no accuser
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tryptonite
mushroom ninja
Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 715
Loc: South-East SA (aus)
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: yeah]
#15269476 - 10/24/11 02:43 AM (7 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
yeah said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
article
So much for second sight and warnings from dead ancestors. It turns out that shamanic visions are only in your head and do not come from another realm.
yet another conclusion you reach without using logic!!!
but if theres an article on internet about it then it must be true
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,297
Loc: Americas
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Quote:
desert father said:
it matters whether death was presumed to be a horrific outcome because who said they were to be protected from death? that's my point.
Nobody said they were to be protected from death, and how does that question answer the question I asked?
The premise was that being murdered was inconsistant with being protected, and that many of them being not protected suggests they were not protected as a class.
The reasons for this premise are clear: the body was functioning and living and after the murder it ceased to both live and function due to trauma. This loss of life and function is something that, if prevented, would be construed as protective of the person, their life and bodily functions. Whether they view death as horrific has no clear relevance to this line of reasoning.
Quote:
like you said, "they're still dead"...so why do YOU think that death should have been avoided? it matters because if they really had no fear of death, there was no reason to be protected from it.
I don't think that death "should have been avoided", and I'm not sure how you suppose I had a position on that one way or the other. As for your conclusion in the second sentence, what does whether there was a reason for them to be protected have to do with this issue? The question is whether they were or were not protected, not whether there was or was not a reason for them to be protected. You seem to be equivocating by addressing the latter rather than the former, without even alleging any interdependence.
Quote:
i think that the poster thought death to be a punishment because he said - "So much for second sight and warnings from dead ancestors"
as if dead ancestors were used for protection from death...now you get it?
No. What in the given statement implies that death is a punishment?
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BlindSophist
drunken preacher
Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 20,224
Loc: SF Bay Area
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You know OC, I'm kinda late catching this one but I have to say this the most tasteless of your highlights I've ever seen.
Also, you're wrong to generalize. Not all shamans are quacks who claim to be literally clairvoyant in three-dimensional space/time. Do you know more about these fourteen than you're letting on? 
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Love of one is a barbarism; for it is exercised at the expense of all others. The love of God, too.
--Friedrich Nietzsche
  
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Please point to a 'real' one. Thank you. 
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This is your drain on brugs.
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BlindSophist
drunken preacher
Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 20,224
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Hey, I'm not in the business of exalting shamans here, I'm just pointing out not all of them claim to be Jedis.
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Love of one is a barbarism; for it is exercised at the expense of all others. The love of God, too.
--Friedrich Nietzsche
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: BlindSophist] 1
#15275118 - 10/25/11 07:10 AM (7 months, 1 day ago) |
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Put up or shut up dood.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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BlindSophist
drunken preacher
Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 20,224
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15276195 - 10/25/11 11:58 AM (7 months, 22 hours ago) |
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OK, fine.
The shamans allowed themselves to be murdered because of something they saw that you can't, OC.
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Love of one is a barbarism; for it is exercised at the expense of all others. The love of God, too.
--Friedrich Nietzsche
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: BlindSophist] 1
#15276876 - 10/25/11 02:20 PM (7 months, 19 hours ago) |
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very nice.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,221
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
#15303709 - 10/31/11 11:44 AM (6 months, 25 days ago) |
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Dippy said: Note to audience: told ya so.
flickedbic said: Assume much?
Yeah, I assumed your magical powers were another giant pile of bullshit in a long line of bullshit posted in this forum. I assumed you would NOT EVEN APPLY to the JREF even though you have nothing to lose and a million bucks plus a Florida vacation on the table.
It's been two weeks. I just looked in the JREF blog and see no new claimants matching your bullshit magical powers. So what's up? Was my assumption correct?
That's what I thought.
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid]
#15303717 - 10/31/11 11:46 AM (6 months, 25 days ago) |
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What a shocker!
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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BlindSophist
drunken preacher
Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 20,224
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid]
#15303733 - 10/31/11 11:50 AM (6 months, 25 days ago) |
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Why, exactly, is there so much talk of magical powers and hokey, placeholderish spirituality on the philosoophy, sociology, and psychology forum? Is it because psychedelics have the power to make people honestly believe they have unplugged themselves from The Matrix?
I know I've been guilty of talking about God and souls and the afterlife around here, but I try to do it in a tidily argumentative, philosophical fashion... I'm not trying to prove to anybody that I can see through space and time. Why are there so many claims to that kind of ability here? Or, why are there so many rebuttals to that kind of claim here?
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Love of one is a barbarism; for it is exercised at the expense of all others. The love of God, too.
--Friedrich Nietzsche
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: BlindSophist]
#15303738 - 10/31/11 11:52 AM (6 months, 25 days ago) |
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Cause humans r dumb.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid]
#15303799 - 10/31/11 12:14 PM (6 months, 25 days ago) |
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I noticed that Dip applied to JREF.
His power? To predict that all other claimants will fail and that most won't even apply.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,819
Loc: Street of Dreams
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: BlindSophist]
#15303836 - 10/31/11 12:22 PM (6 months, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Tchan909 said:
Why are there so many claims to that kind of ability here?
Because this site is filled with drug addicts who have lost touch. Its that simple.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: DieCommie]
#15303861 - 10/31/11 12:28 PM (6 months, 25 days ago) |
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Or this site is filled with Indigo Children who have unlocked their powers by pharmacologically opening the doors of perception. Way to be cynical, brah.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,819
Loc: Street of Dreams
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: deCypher]
#15303873 - 10/31/11 12:31 PM (6 months, 25 days ago) |
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I was on the fence until I saw your posts on teleporting aliens.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: DieCommie]
#15303906 - 10/31/11 12:37 PM (6 months, 25 days ago) |
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I can no longer be silent now that the reptilians from Orion have built a Stargate in my backyard.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,819
Loc: Street of Dreams
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: deCypher] 1
#15303917 - 10/31/11 12:39 PM (6 months, 25 days ago) |
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If I were anywhere else I would think you are kidding.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: DieCommie]
#15304007 - 10/31/11 12:58 PM (6 months, 25 days ago) |
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--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: deCypher]
#15304033 - 10/31/11 01:05 PM (6 months, 25 days ago) |
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Is Shroomism still pushing Niburu and the alien agenda?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Quote:
Shroomism said:
We don't have 233 years to change our path. It has to happen now.
I believe there are aliens.
I believe aliens have visited Earth for millions of years.
I believe there are approximately 200+ different species visiting Earth at this current time in our evolution as a global civilization.
I believe certain beings are partially responsible for our seeding of this planet and have had interactions throughout all of human history.
I believe that some of them walk amongst us, in human bodies.
However most probably reside in the 4th and 5th and 6th dimensional levels.
I actually believe I am an alien, but that's besides the point.
I believe we are all from the same source originally.
I believe the Universe is in fact, teeming with intelligent life.
We are on the cusp of a collective consciousness revolution.
Along with the fall of the empires and the dark cabal that have had this planet prisoner for the past thousands of years.
They are here to assist with the transformation and welcome us as members of the Galactic Federation of Light.
If we are up to the challenge.
Which we are. Otherwise, why else would you be here right now?
Don't like it?
It's only going to get way more insane, and then much, much more awesome.
My evidence is reality
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: deCypher]
#15304129 - 10/31/11 01:31 PM (6 months, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
My evidence is reality.
Really? Methinks his evidence is The X-Files.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
I noticed that Dip applied to JREF.
His power? To predict that all other claimants will fail and that most won't even apply.
So that's where he got his money.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2,296
Loc: Chasing the dragon
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15304265 - 10/31/11 02:06 PM (6 months, 25 days ago) |
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The whole universe is full of aliens. 
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Especially near the border.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15304313 - 10/31/11 02:21 PM (6 months, 25 days ago) |
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Those fucking Andromedans are sneaking into the Milky Way violating the Neutral Zone. 
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This is your drain on brugs.
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