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 zZZz
friend
Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 2,059
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 we have very little freedom  2
#15145525 - 09/28/11 02:57 AM (7 months, 28 days ago) |
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anyone else notice? jeezus we are fucking ignorant and stupid, not everyone, but most of us. what a joke of a society we live in. what a pathetic game we play.
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Jesus Is Love
 "The best quote of all time"
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 crkhd
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zZZz]
#15145561 - 09/28/11 03:43 AM (7 months, 28 days ago) |
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Disagree totally. We have total freedom. I may not, you may not but WE do.
Nothing is compelling you to go with the system.
Nothing is compelling you to follow your desires.
However you have chosen your shape and that alone limits your freedom.
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SHABOOM
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zzripz
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: crkhd]
#15145579 - 09/28/11 03:57 AM (7 months, 28 days ago) |
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I completely agree with you zZZz! We do not. And what is depressing is that others who are oppressed not only refuse to dig that, but police the dissent of other victims who bring this to the attention!
Now THAT strategy has been written about, but because I research all different subjects, and aint got a photographic memory, sometimes it is hard to remember the stuff on it--it may come to me, but off the top of my head: John Taylo Gatto (Google him) has revealed the indoctrination of the 'education' system which was imposed on millions of children in 19th century by force. It is based on inteolcking controlling philosophy since Plato and is designed to ensure a hierachy with the elite at the top and the 'peasants' at the bottom, so it is a dumbing-down strategy in other words. And Gatto goes into how this set us has been created via 'important thinkers' who influence things, that the very people oppressed are trained to police each other, and how this is for the benefit of the elite, because then they dont have to rely THAT much on spending 'their' money of coercive procedures to control dissent.
ALONG with this is of course the 'war on drugs' which very much includes the war on psychedelics, and this is obviously their control over free exploration of consciousness.
Now it of course CAN be argued that most of us can find psychedelics and/or grow our own, and thus are 'free' to do so, however IF we are caught there is a prison cell waiting for us which, I hope people will agree is NOT freedom, and that this persecution and threat affects the very culture we have to live in. I dont want to hog the conversation so will leave it there for now, but thans zZZz for bringing this to others awarenesses 
Edited by zzripz (09/28/11 04:00 AM)
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buegskee1
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: crkhd]
#15145580 - 09/28/11 03:58 AM (7 months, 28 days ago) |
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Disagree totally. We have total freedom. I may not, you may not but WE do.
Nothing is compelling you to go with the system.
everything we learn is.
Nothing is compelling you to follow your desires.
having no money or the right education does.
However you have chosen your shape and that alone limits your freedom
we are shown what shapes exist.
and so... agreed 
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Icelander
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zZZz]
#15145655 - 09/28/11 04:44 AM (7 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
zZZz said:
anyone else notice? jeezus we are fucking ignorant and stupid, not everyone, but most of us. what a joke of a society we live in. what a pathetic game we play.
We are bound by the constraints of our genetics and physicality and particular animal nature. You can't think like the lion no matter how hard you try. What's interesting to reflect on is that we are a product of nature and the universe and creation at large. If we are "stupid" and do stupid things that is a reflection of creation at large. We cannot operate independently outside that system. This is why I believe humans created the myth of a conscious universe that is deliberately dumbing down as a game of remembering itself. We have to find a way to account for our stupidity and evil without condemning creation itself.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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zzripz
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15146408 - 09/28/11 09:05 AM (7 months, 28 days ago) |
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we are not bound by genetics. neuroplasticity is finding that the old view that genetics determine you was false
we are not a 'product' of the universe and nature and creation at large. you make us sound like soap product. your terminology BINDS. words can bind, yeah? I call these toxic myths. I am not being mean to you, i know you like fun--I am just telling you how I feel it (i know ya will come back with somethin)
We rather ARE nature, ARE the universe, ARE creation. It is not this Mystery that makes us dumb it is words that bind. it is an 'education' system that tells you and nakes you believe you are a determinstic robot with no free will. In doing so that very toxic myth polices you....see? See the tricks being played?
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Icelander
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15146610 - 09/28/11 10:08 AM (7 months, 27 days ago) |
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Baloney, people were acting like fools long before the scientific method was discovered. And you'll not grow wings and fly like a bird or climb like a squirrel.
We rather ARE nature, ARE the universe, ARE creation.
I've always said so and that's the problem as well as the solution. Any negativity you detect in the human condition is a natural product of evolution, nature, the universe and creation. If we are a mess then creation is a mess. Something I highly suspect btw.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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dustinthewind13
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15146615 - 09/28/11 10:10 AM (7 months, 27 days ago) |
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neuroplasticity is finding that the old view that genetics determine you was false
Neuroplasticity is determined by genetics. That means that genetics do determine you. At least with neuroplasticity. How your brain is going to change based on it's function is determined by the cooperation of nature (neuroplasticity in this case) and nurture (experience).
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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zzripz
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I am not a neuroscientist but what you said does not make sense, and people I have heard who are knowledgeable about neuroplasticity dont talk like that---so, I will choose to ignore it
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Icelander
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15146687 - 09/28/11 10:32 AM (7 months, 27 days ago) |
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bravo
but there are still the limits of genetics as I pointed out.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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circastes
i did it for tha bliss
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15146694 - 09/28/11 10:35 AM (7 months, 27 days ago) |
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See sig.
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Find me in the backyard, sailing my kettle. Playing poker with insects, wearing a cup of tea. A hat of brimstone, yellow-crimson, looking like a giant flea. Forever my friend: so my energy this day I lend, I practice faking it to pretend, and become the actor in the end. My folly hangs on the trees like leaves and drips in the falling breeze, the tock of a minute here shakes me to my knees.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zZZz]
#15146701 - 09/28/11 10:36 AM (7 months, 27 days ago) |
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Let's say you are plopped down in the middle of the Amazon jungle by yourself with full gear and no oppressive regime. For breakfast you can have fish and some bitter fruit. I have 1000 times as many choices.
Then you are free to be bitten by dozens of stinging insects and are free to sweat profusely while I get to set my AC to the perfect temperature. When you get too hot you are free to swim in piranha-infested waters. I will go to my nice, clean pool.
FREEDOM!
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This is your drain on brugs.
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dustinthewind13
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15146734 - 09/28/11 10:43 AM (7 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
I am not a neuroscientist but what you said does not make sense, and people I have heard who are knowledgeable about neuroplasticity dont talk like that---so, I will choose to ignore it
How does what I said not make sense? Where did your friends say neuroplasticity came from, if not from genetics?
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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zzripz
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sigggh, the whole POINT of this new tale from the usual stiff confining neuroscintific gang is that neuroPLASTICITY is that is is NOT bound by genes. who ya listening to? Are you a hip psychedelic experiencerrr orrr?
http://www.themonthly.com.au/brain-how-it-can-change-develop-and-improve-featuring-dr-norman-doidge-1385 [The reason why the ‘discovery’ of neuroplasticity is revolutionary (in 400 years) is because previously it was believed the brain was a machine like a computer, and different parts dealt with different things—like music and so on. This belief led to what I cal, neurological nihilism—that whatever state of the brain there is you are stuck with it. That once it was ‘wired’ it couldn’t ‘rewire itself’, because machines cannot do that, and this also meant that one’s nature was fixed also]
Edited by zzripz (09/28/11 10:51 AM)
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OrgoneConclusion
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You have to want it a lot and strain and grunt - that and it really helps to be young.
Neuro plasticity = genetics + exposure to many different types of tasks. This is one area where AI programs generally suck. Once they are fully trained it is nearly impossible to get them to respond to new data.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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zzripz
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we have to stop THINKING of ourselves as bags-who-are-bound-by and rather see us as dynamic inter~relating forms which reach out and connect to nature, others, and universe
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dustinthewind13
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Are you a hip psychedelic experiencerrr orrr?
Aye. 
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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More importantly are you so hip as to want to fuck dolphins?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
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Nay. I want to fuck fairies though. 
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15147128 - 09/28/11 12:37 PM (7 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
we have to stop THINKING of ourselves as bags-who-are-bound-by and rather see us as dynamic inter~relating forms which reach out and connect to nature, others, and universe
One is all that.
You cannot deny the role that genetics plays. For instance one is more natural at musical ability than another. Given the same plasticity potential one will become a concert musician and the other will form a garage band and mostly be average with a lot of practice.
Actually now that I think of it, it's genetics that gives us such variety. Without it we would be truly machine like carbon copies.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
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Posts: 29,381
Loc: Luxor
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander] 1
#15147155 - 09/28/11 12:45 PM (7 months, 27 days ago) |
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I once took a year off in my 20s and practiced four hours a day on piano. At the end of the year, I did not suck as much, but I still sucked.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Ped
Circumspect
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zZZz]
#15147159 - 09/28/11 12:46 PM (7 months, 27 days ago) |
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Your question inspired a line of thought that evolved to such an extent that I decided to create a separate thread for its presentation and discussion.
Find it here: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15147150
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zzripz
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15147405 - 09/28/11 01:33 PM (7 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
zzripz said:
we have to stop THINKING of ourselves as bags-who-are-bound-by and rather see us as dynamic inter~relating forms which reach out and connect to nature, others, and universe
One is all that.
You cannot deny the role that genetics plays. For instance one is more natural at musical ability than another. Given the same plasticity potential one will become a concert musician and the other will form a garage band and mostly be average with a lot of practice.
Actually now that I think of it, it's genetics that gives us such variety. Without it we would be truly machine like carbon copies.
A 'concert musician'--do you KNOW how MANY concert musicians I have been BORED by...? Give me Delta Blues any day! Ie., musical appreciation is very, diverse
I actually have a very deep eclectic taste in music, but to stick concert musican at the top of the 'genetic music chart' is about westerno centric and white middle class thingymajigs
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15147516 - 09/28/11 01:54 PM (7 months, 27 days ago) |
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OK then Rick Wakeman.
You're missing the point. 
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15148043 - 09/28/11 03:30 PM (7 months, 27 days ago) |
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I'm trying to figure out how telling yourself that there are toxic myths is not a toxic myth itself
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LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
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Posts: 6,766
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander] 1
#15148097 - 09/28/11 03:40 PM (7 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
zZZz said:
anyone else notice? jeezus we are fucking ignorant and stupid, not everyone, but most of us. what a joke of a society we live in. what a pathetic game we play.
We are bound by the constraints of our genetics and physicality and particular animal nature. You can't think like the lion no matter how hard you try. What's interesting to reflect on is that we are a product of nature and the universe and creation at large. If we are "stupid" and do stupid things that is a reflection of creation at large. We cannot operate independently outside that system. This is why I believe humans created the myth of a conscious universe that is deliberately dumbing down as a game of remembering itself. We have to find a way to account for our stupidity and evil without condemning creation itself.
I can be Hungry Like The Wolf though. A meat eater free to eat meat even if the meat wasn't free. I mean sure I collected some rent and went to the store and bought it. Weren't like I had to go track down a buffalo. But wouldn't it be cool to be free to go kill a buffalo without some stupid hunting license and waiting in a buffalo killing opportunity lottery. The good old days just plug them from the train and laugh. Fucking Indians they knew about freedom. Well not really but they did believe no one owned the land and that's a cool concept.
Free Land!
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Don't worry be happy.
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zzripz
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Kickle]
#15151084 - 09/29/11 01:51 AM (7 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
I'm trying to figure out how telling yourself that there are toxic myths is not a toxic myth itself
For this reason: when you find out that watering plants with weedkiller is dumbfuck ignorant toxic myth is NOT toxic myth when you tell your children so they dont do it
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crkhd
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15151439 - 09/29/11 06:07 AM (7 months, 27 days ago) |
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Another point: How much of your freedom do you restrict yourself?
There's nothing stopping you from going out on a 32 day rampage like some kind of predator. But you won't because of your attachments to things that give you comfort. When you're sitting around feeling isolated, angry, depressed, resentful of the world, you complain about freedom. Notice any give-a-fuckness about freedom goes out of the window when you're at peace?
"Blessed are the birds in their cages,
For at least they know the limits of their prisons"
Nothing stopping you from going elsewhere to have the best experience of your life but the corridors you have blocked in your mind.
Quote:
Henry Markram
Now, even at this stage, we can use the brain model to explore some fundamental questions about how the brain works. And here, at TED, for the first time, I'd like to share with you how we're addressing one theory -- there are many theories -- one theory of how the brain works. So, this theory is that the brain creates, builds, a version of the universe. And projects this version of the universe, like a bubble, all around us.
Now, this is of course a topic of philosophical debate for centuries. But, for the first time, we can actually address this, with brain simulation, and ask very systematic and rigorous questions, whether this theory could possibly be true. The reason why the moon is huge on the horizon is simply because our perceptual bubble does not stretch out 380,000 kilometers. It runs out of space. And so what we do is we compare the buildings within our perceptual bubble, and we make a decision. We make a decision it's that big, even though it's not that big,
and what that illustrates is that decisions are the key things that support our perceptual bubble. It keeps it alive. Without decisions you cannot see, you cannot think, you cannot feel. And you may think that anesthetics work by sending you into some deep sleep, or by blocking your receptors so that you don't feel pain, but in fact most anesthetics don't work that way. What they do is they introduce a noise into the brain so that the neurons can not understand each other. They are confused, and you can not make a decision. So, while you're trying to make up your mind, what the doctor, the surgeon is doing while he's hacking away at your body, he's long gone. He's at home having tea. (Laughter)
So, when you walk up to a door and you open it, what you compulsively have to do to perceive is to make decisions, thousands of decisions about the size of the room, the wall, the height, the objects in this room. 99 percent of what you see is not what comes in through the eyes. It is what you infer about that room. So I can say, with some certainty, "I think, therefore I am." But I cannot say, "You think, therefore you are," because "you" are within my perceptual bubble.
Now, we can speculate and philosophize this, but we don't actually have to for the next hundred years. We can ask a very concrete question. "Can the brain build such a perception?" Is it capable of doing it? Does it have the substance to do it? And that's what I'm going to describe to you today.
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SHABOOM
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LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,766
Loc: Sugar Town
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
I once took a year off in my 20s and practiced four hours a day on piano. At the end of the year, I did not suck as much, but I still sucked.
Imagine how good you would have gotten had you been merely playing with pleasure for four hours a day instead of all those grueling practices?
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Don't worry be happy.
Edited by LunarEclipse (09/29/11 07:42 AM)
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zzripz
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
I once took a year off in my 20s and practiced four hours a day on piano. At the end of the year, I did not suck as much, but I still sucked.
hmmmm you know learning music can be a bummer. know why? Cause you have people drowning you in technique and shit which can kill any natural spontaneous unique spirit of talent you got. So for example, some people will tell a person to hold a guitar in a certain way, but what if that way aint YOUR way? If you dont know that then their authority is going to KILL your musical uniqueness, especially when you get critiques from them as well? feel me?
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
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You mean I could have had an ugly Japanese wife and been shot in the belly? 
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This is your drain on brugs.
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tracedwards313
Tits Mcgrits
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you are buying into an illusion of freedom/non-freedom
you can do anything you want to do period.
there are consiquences for your actions but you can still choose to do whatever you want.
the reason you are free is because no person owns you and can force you to do things against your will.
you can be a bum and sleep all damn day, or a doctor, or an addict
you are free, just think of the people who were owned and controlled then consider your life
if you still think you are not free, then give examples of things you wish to do but cannot? why are you not free?
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I love Psilocybin. 
Psilocybin, LSD, Ketamine, Mescaline, 2C-E, 5-Meo-DMT, DXM, LSA, Marijuana, Alcohol, Heroin/Opiates, 4-Aco-DMT, Methylone, 25I-NBOMe, Cocaine/Crack, amphetamines, Pharms, PCP, Benzos, DMT/Aya, Salvia, MDMA, Nitrous, MXE, 2C-C
Exile Nation Project
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dustinthewind13
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Everyone can't be as smart as Einstein.
Edited by dustinthewind13 (09/29/11 09:02 PM)
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
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then give examples of things you wish to do but cannot? why are you not free?
lol really? there's lots dude. I want to skydive without a parachute from 15,000 feet, land in a rocket that promptly shoots me to the nearest planet with life after putting me into cryostasis. Then when I wake up, I want to get it on with whatever life is on that planet. After that I want to get back into the rocket and launch into orbit around this strange planet and jetteson myself out in the direction opposite the rockets orbit. I will orbit the planet once, without anything to rely on but my lungs of course, and land back in the rocket for the ride home. When I get back I will write a best selling novel about my adventures titled 'This Sucks' and then figure out what else my totally free self wants to do.
And if that's too elaborate for you, how about this one. I wish I could stop shitting for year. Just for a year, not even forever. I just wanna see what it's like to not shit for a year. I've tried but 4 days is my record.
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
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Loc: Chasing the dragon
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Kickle]
#15155586 - 09/29/11 09:04 PM (7 months, 26 days ago) |
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I've tried but 4 days is my record.
That must have been painful.
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
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It wasn't. I'm not really sure why it wasn't either 
I think the non-stop horseback riding just kept packing it in or something
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Kickle]
#15155608 - 09/29/11 09:11 PM (7 months, 26 days ago) |
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Wow. That is weird. An hour of not being able to go is hell for me sometimes.
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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zZZz
friend
Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 2,059
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personal freedom i am aware of. its these laws on the outside that are limiting our freedom which worry me. for example i wish i could drink a beer in the open while walking to the store without getting harassed. Or smoke weed like it never went illegal and grow it anywhere i want. its not just about drinking beer in public and smoking weed. there are many rights taken away from us that there are just too many to list. i have been harassed by cops just by walking and minding my own business, thats the type of shit im talking about. i understand that some things are necessary, but sometimes enough is enough. there is a limit to what you can take away from people before they start to suspect that something isn't right.
let us all carry guns and we will take matters into our own hands.  whos with me?
hehe jk.....or not.
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Jesus Is Love
"The best quote of all time"
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,340
Last seen: 15 hours, 27 minutes
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Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
Wow. That is weird. An hour of not being able to go is hell for me sometimes.
well it wasn't that I was actually holding it
I just didn't have to shit for 4 days
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zZZz
friend
Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 2,059
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Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
Wow. That is weird. An hour of not being able to go is hell for me sometimes.
really? doing it everyday seems weird to me. i guess it depends on how much you eat and what kind of foods you eat everyday.
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Jesus Is Love
"The best quote of all time"
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2,296
Loc: Chasing the dragon
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Kickle]
#15155661 - 09/29/11 09:21 PM (7 months, 26 days ago) |
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I have to shit everyday. I don't eat too much, so I guess it's my metabolism?
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
Edited by dustinthewind13 (09/29/11 09:22 PM)
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zZZz
friend
Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 2,059
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yea maybe, does it mean you are healthy if you shit every day? i should start a thread on this.
speaking of shits, i will be back in 30 to 45 minutes.
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Jesus Is Love
"The best quote of all time"
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
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99% of the time I'm a regular daily shitter.
This was a pack-trip into the Bob Marshall Wilderness that involved long trail rides on horseback and lots of physical labor getting camp ready, cooking, getting wood, hauling water, hobbling the horses, managing the perimeter, hanging the leftovers, fishing, hunting, etc. etc. etc. The shit didn't come the first day. Nor the second. Not even the third. And on the forth, it was just like a regular poop. Except I buried it...
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2,296
Loc: Chasing the dragon
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zZZz]
#15155680 - 09/29/11 09:28 PM (7 months, 26 days ago) |
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does it mean you are healthy if you shit every day?
Good question. Let me know when/if you start that thread.
Have a nice dump. 
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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zZZz
friend
Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 2,059
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--------------------
Jesus Is Love
"The best quote of all time"
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2,296
Loc: Chasing the dragon
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Kickle]
#15155697 - 09/29/11 09:31 PM (7 months, 26 days ago) |
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Oh. When you said record I thought you were making it your goal to not shit as long as possible.
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,340
Last seen: 15 hours, 27 minutes
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That's an ongoing goal. 4 days is the record and it just so happened to not require any holding back.
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
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Posts: 11,340
Last seen: 15 hours, 27 minutes
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15155737 - 09/29/11 09:38 PM (7 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
Kickle said:
I'm trying to figure out how telling yourself that there are toxic myths is not a toxic myth itself
For this reason: when you find out that watering plants with weedkiller is dumbfuck ignorant toxic myth is NOT toxic myth when you tell your children so they dont do it
That's not an accurate analogy. You do not know how beneficial or detrimental the story a person tells themselves is versus the story you would have them tell. I've heard some of your stories and if people in the wrong position went through with them they'd quickly wind up dead.
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dustinthewind13
Douroucoulis Aotus
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 2,296
Loc: Chasing the dragon
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Kickle]
#15155758 - 09/29/11 09:41 PM (7 months, 26 days ago) |
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I couldn't make it more than a few hours after the urge came. I suspect it would start getting as bad as Chinese water torture after a while. Not being able to shit is one of the worst pains for me.
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"Set out running but I take my time
A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,340
Last seen: 15 hours, 27 minutes
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yeah we're not meant to hold our shits in and it's stupid to do so. I think that sort of thing is a good way to get some colon cancer.
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Kizzle
Misanthrope
Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 1,941
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Kickle]
#15156312 - 09/30/11 12:23 AM (7 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
yeah we're not meant to hold our shits in and it's stupid to do so. I think that sort of thing is a good way to get some colon cancer.
You've been listening to this guy haven't you?
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Kickle]
#15156435 - 09/30/11 01:33 AM (7 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
Kickle said:
I'm trying to figure out how telling yourself that there are toxic myths is not a toxic myth itself
For this reason: when you find out that watering plants with weedkiller is dumbfuck ignorant toxic myth is NOT toxic myth when you tell your children so they dont do it
That's not an accurate analogy. You do not know how beneficial or detrimental the story a person tells themselves is versus the story you would have them tell. I've heard some of your stories and if people in the wrong position went through with them they'd quickly wind up dead.
you compluicate everything too much for your own good and this is why you cannot think clearly.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15156440 - 09/30/11 01:35 AM (7 months, 26 days ago) |
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He can't think clearly? You should read your own posts dude.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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rainx
Pilgrim
Registered: 07/31/11
Posts: 146
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 7 months, 15 days
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zZZz]
#15156552 - 09/30/11 02:59 AM (7 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
zZZz said:
personal freedom i am aware of. its these laws on the outside that are limiting our freedom which worry me. for example i wish i could drink a beer in the open while walking to the store without getting harassed. Or smoke weed like it never went illegal and grow it anywhere i want. its not just about drinking beer in public and smoking weed. there are many rights taken away from us that there are just too many to list. i have been harassed by cops just by walking and minding my own business, thats the type of shit im talking about. i understand that some things are necessary, but sometimes enough is enough. there is a limit to what you can take away from people before they start to suspect that something isn't right.
....edit.....
I agree with your perspective... Our Founding Fathers created a mindset of FREEDOM, that has been lobotomized by power seekers and sucking dregs. The more the government 'gives', the more freedom we lose.
We have lost a lot...kinda like the boiled frog who didn't notice the gently warming water!
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"The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna" is best source of insight into the self, universe, and the entheogen catalyzed experience. Forward by Aldous Huxley.
Edited by rainx (09/30/11 03:30 AM)
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: rainx]
#15156676 - 09/30/11 04:36 AM (7 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
rainx said:
Quote:
zZZz said:
personal freedom i am aware of. its these laws on the outside that are limiting our freedom which worry me. for example i wish i could drink a beer in the open while walking to the store without getting harassed. Or smoke weed like it never went illegal and grow it anywhere i want. its not just about drinking beer in public and smoking weed. there are many rights taken away from us that there are just too many to list. i have been harassed by cops just by walking and minding my own business, thats the type of shit im talking about. i understand that some things are necessary, but sometimes enough is enough. there is a limit to what you can take away from people before they start to suspect that something isn't right.
....edit.....
I agree with your perspective... Our Founding Fathers created a mindset of FREEDOM, that has been lobotomized by power seekers and sucking dregs. The more the government 'gives', the more freedom we lose.
We have lost a lot...kinda like the boiled frog who didn't notice the gently warming water!
errrm what 'freedom' did the 'founding fathers' give to the indigenous people whose lands they invaded, and African people they had captured called 'slaves'...?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15156849 - 09/30/11 06:32 AM (7 months, 26 days ago) |
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All culture and societies imo is built on hypocrisy and lies that we all (most) agree to.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
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Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15157137 - 09/30/11 08:17 AM (7 months, 26 days ago) |
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that belief just justifies to yourself the lyin cheatin twofaced invaders of the native americans etc
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15157248 - 09/30/11 08:47 AM (7 months, 26 days ago) |
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No, your posting seems so ignorant at times. It's actually an accusation and condemnation of culture including ours. I have no desire to justify human activities of this nature. Please think before posting.
You think the American Indians were real different? They were not. Do some in depth study of their warlike cultures and find out. They lacked the technology to do more serious damage is all. Of course there are exceptions in degree just like not all people in a culture are of the same mindset as the culture at large. War was a fact of life in the early Americas before the white man show up with his technology to basically wipe them out.
Thanksgiving guilt trip: How warlike were Native Americans before Europeans showed up?
By John Horgan | November 22, 2010 | 24
From Scientific American
The approach of Thanksgiving, that quintessential American holiday, has me brooding over recent scientific portrayals of Native Americans as bellicose brutes. When I was in grade school, my classmates and I wore paper Indian headdresses and Pilgrim hats and reenacted the "first Thanksgiving," in which supposedly friendly Native Americans joined Pilgrims for a fall feast of turkey, venison, squash and corn. This episode seemed to support the view—often (apparently erroneously) attributed to the 18th-century philosopher Jean-Jacques Rousseau—of Native Americans and other pre-state people as peaceful "noble savages".
As I’ve pointed out previously, prominent scientists now deride depictions of pre-state people as peaceful. "Contra leftist anthropologists who celebrate the noble savage," the Harvard psychologist Steven Pinker wrote in 2007, "quantitative body counts—such as the proportion of prehistoric skeletons with ax marks and embedded arrowheads or the proportion of men in a contemporary foraging tribe who die at the hands of other men—suggest that pre-state societies were far more violent than our own." According to Pinker, the 17th-century philosopher Thomas Hobbes "got it right" when he called pre-state life a "war of all against all."
Pinker based his view on books such as War Before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage (Oxford University Press, 1996) by the anthropologist Lawrence Keeley of the University of Illinois, and Constant Battles: The Myth of the Peaceful, Noble Savage (Saint Martin’s Press, 2003) by the archaeologist Steven LeBlanc of Harvard. "The dogs of war were seldom on a leash" in the pre-Colombian New World, Keeley wrote.
Popular culture has amplified these scientific claims. In the 2007 HBO docudrama Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, Chief Sitting Bull complains to a U.S. Army colonel about whites’ violent treatment of the Indians. The colonel retorts, "You were killing each other for hundreds of moons before the first white stepped foot on this continent."
Native Americans definitely waged war long before Europeans showed up. The evidence is especially strong in the American Southwest, where archaeologists have found numerous skeletons with projectile points embedded in them and other marks of violence; war seems to have surged during periods of drought.
Edited by Icelander (09/30/11 08:55 AM)
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15158736 - 09/30/11 02:38 PM (7 months, 25 days ago) |
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I am not gonna dignify the characters you choose to 'prove' your point with a reaction. It is just typical that this culture which writes the history books (as the victor always does) would have it that peoples they totally decimated would be slagged off as being 'even worse' than their bloody selves--this is too pathetic! Your ancestors you defend to the death went to a land that had rivers and streams you could drink UNPOLLUTED water from, and diverse unfucked-with-eco systems, like that BRECAUSE these people experienced the land and water and air and animals as sacred but you and your gang will callously state that 'that was because they didn't have the technology ...yet'--BULLSHIT!
The only way the culture you represent will ever wake up to what it is doing to the Web of Life is when it FACES up to itself it and stops making excuses, and blaming others, and being in a state of denial.
If its not the indigenous people you slander, it is women, or it is the animals, and ALWAYS nature Herself. NEVER your own ignore-ance and irresponsibility!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz] 1
#15159078 - 09/30/11 04:07 PM (7 months, 25 days ago) |
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What a fucking self righteous bunch of foolishness and outright lies. Do you make use of modern technology? Have you rejected all the things of modern culture or are you a total hypocrite? Do you live on land that someone else used to hold? Is your house built of materials that don't pollute. How about the cars you drive in and the food shipped to you? Someone here is a major hypocrite and I know who it is.
So now prove your point. Present your case besides your romantic personal fairy tales about those you seem to know so well. Or maybe stfu.
More of how indian societies constructed.
http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/nge/ArticlePrintable.jsp?id=h-576
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
Edited by Icelander (09/30/11 04:20 PM)
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,340
Last seen: 15 hours, 27 minutes
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Kizzle]
#15159382 - 09/30/11 05:25 PM (7 months, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kizzle said:
Quote:
Kickle said:
yeah we're not meant to hold our shits in and it's stupid to do so. I think that sort of thing is a good way to get some colon cancer.
You've been listening to this guy haven't you?
who? If there's a joke here I want in.
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Kizzle
Misanthrope
Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 1,941
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Kickle]
#15160249 - 09/30/11 09:08 PM (7 months, 25 days ago) |
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He's on some infomercials in the middle night. Spends an hour talking about taking a dump in a creepy voice.
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15160977 - 10/01/11 01:11 AM (7 months, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
What a fucking self righteous bunch of foolishness and outright lies. Do you make use of modern technology? Have you rejected all the things of modern culture or are you a total hypocrite? Do you live on land that someone else used to hold? Is your house built of materials that don't pollute. How about the cars you drive in and the food shipped to you? Someone here is a major hypocrite and I know who it is.
So now prove your point. Present your case besides your romantic personal fairy tales about those you seem to know so well. Or maybe stfu.
More of how indian societies constructed.
http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/nge/ArticlePrintable.jsp?id=h-576
Let's remind what thread's called 'we have little freedom'--I agree with OP. You are the antagonist? I say that native american peoples RESPECTED the land and waters MORE than their conquerers did or continue to. I am not trying to paint the native tribes in a romantic light. I am well aware they had tribal wars, but i am ALSO well aware that ALL your sources of 'info' about all that are coming from the pens and mouths OF the victors --capiche?? Same way that 'African History' (revealed to be prejudiced) was written by the white colonialists and slavers of African peoples. Not so hard to dig right? Good.
Now, EVEN if you think your winning your litte argument that native American males were all war-like like the whites etc, that STILL does not mean that war is right, right? Or that tribale war is right. But I am betting that you will then come with something like 'but nature makes us that way'--ie., you will again and again try and find excuses for cultures that are war-like, especially our own, and doing so you justify this culture which is exceedingly war-like and has now war weaponry that could not only finish most life on earth (if not all) but is actually contaminating planet Earth at accelerating rates---the military industrial complex is THE biggest polluter on the planet! So MY question is when and HOW can this insainty be resolved. What does it take? Does it take apologists for it like yourself who see it as natural fact of life both ancient and modern. Dont think so.
We have very little freedom is right. If you find yourself going 'mad' you will usually have the only recourse to visit your GP who will either give you toxic addictive 'medication' for your 'mental illness' and/or refer you to a shrink who will give you more and has power to lock you up, take away your human rights, and force ECT on you, etc.
IF you want to live an alternative life as far off the grid as possible, and commune with nature using sacred vegetation they will come and throw your arse in a cell.
Only yesterday I saw a video about people in America who have lost their houses and money and are being forced to live in their cars, and are being harrassed by the authorities---one said this is so because they either want you in prison or part of the system, they do not want you living 'free'.
Edited by zzripz (10/01/11 01:16 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15161330 - 10/01/11 05:23 AM (7 months, 25 days ago) |
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I'm not justifying anything. I'm explaining it. I don't like many of the effects of culture anymore than you do. I personally don't prefer all this nastiness. The American indians lacked the technology to do much damage but they burned the grasslands to herd the buffalo to them and drove hundreds off off cliffs in drives when they could only make use of a few of them. I greatly prefer their lifestyle over all to ours however. That's why I took survival training in the high desert with Paiute Indians cause I wanted to have an experience of some part of that lifestyle. But they were overall too warlike for my tastes just as we are. The men were compelled by their culture into a state of perpetual Macho-ness. It was mostly the elders who were the spiritual ones. Their hormone levels had dropped and they weren't going to be fighting or hunting or strutting in their societies all the time. The indians, for the most part that were not so warlike were the ones that had to put more energy into basic survival due to their environment. The most Warlike and strongest tribes got the best territories.
But yeah it is nature doing it. That's no excuse that's just an explanation. In the same way you are contributing to the culture and all it's negatives by living your life and except in word mostly going along and reaping the benefits of all this for good or ill. You contribute to this nonsense every day just by using your computer or driving your car or living in a modern dwelling or buying anything that is artificially produced and built by wage slave workers.
Unlike you I see the big picture here. All this nonsense is a blip on the radar screen of existence and will soon enough be gone. And I'll be gone long before that. I don't know why it's happening or to what end. The only possible choice I have is how to live my life in some small degree and I will have no idea ultimately if any choice I make is for better or not.
I don't need to win this argument. It's already won. Things are as they are, have been and will be. I'm just acknowledging it. Not calling any of it right or wrong. I may not like it but that's unimportant imo.
Edited by Icelander (10/01/11 06:33 AM)
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
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Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15162271 - 10/01/11 11:32 AM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I'm not justifying anything. I'm explaining it. I don't like many of the effects of culture anymore than you do. I personally don't prefer all this nastiness. The American indians lacked the technology to do much damage but they burned the grasslands to herd the buffalo to them and drove hundreds off off cliffs in drives when they could only make use of a few of them.
LOL. oh did 'they'..? that will be ALL of them will it? See how you have no idea of the variety of the native american peoples---you just lump them all together dont you? This is typical whiteman's attitude I am trying to point out.
And errrm since when is burning some grasslands in the same league of utter ecocide as the western peoples have brought, not only to the 'new world' but the world? You keep suggesting it is because they didn't have the technology--implying they would eventually become as insane as our lot? How is that so--where is your proof. Poeples who understand the land and animals to be sacred OBVIOUSLY do not go that route.
Quote:
I greatly prefer their lifestyle over all to ours however. That's why I took survival training in the high desert with Paiute Indians cause I wanted to have an experience of some part of that lifestyle. But they were overall too warlike for my tastes just as we are. The men were compelled by their culture into a state of perpetual Macho-ness.
How long were you with these people? I mean, plese, you have your litte survial weekend or whatever, and next breathe seem to know ALl about ALL American ingenous peoples lives---it is really TOO absurd, and VERY arrogant!
Quote:
It was mostly the elders who were the spiritual ones. Their hormone levels had dropped and they weren't going to be fighting or hunting or strutting in their societies all the time. The indians, for the most part that were not so warlike were the ones that had to put more energy into basic survival due to their environment. The most Warlike and strongest tribes got the best territories.
Oh god it gets worse. You equate spiritual awareness with...hormone levels...lol? have you heard of vision quest? This was YOUNG men finding spirituality in wilderness. You are talking rubbish. typcal reactionary drivel trying to disparage native peoples. shame on you!
Quote:
But yeah it is nature doing it. That's no excuse that's just an explanation. In the same way you are contributing to the culture and all it's negatives by living your life and except in word mostly going along and reaping the benefits of all this for good or ill. You contribute to this nonsense every day just by using your computer or driving your car or living in a modern dwelling or buying anything that is artificially produced and built by wage slave workers.
'it's nature doing it'--no. it is your silly little mind doing it likes its doing this pathetic know-it-all diatribe. Look, IF I wanted I could learn to build a nucelar bomb, and/or get together very dangerous chemicals and wipe out a lot of people. i COULD decide to get a gun and kill many children---there is free will, so in that respect, yes I am in nature and am nature, but this doesn't mean that nature would see those actions as intelligent. Nor does 'it' see as intelligent the unsustainable way we are living. it wont see monoculture as intelligent, nor deforestation, nor poisoning the oceans--do i have to explain this to you??
I am born here. I do not use my computer for mindless computer games, world of warcraft, etc like some do but usin what i got I try and wake up people like you---be sharing me ideas. So do others who care about changing things for the good.
You know man you seem mixed up to me---really
Quote:
Unlike you I see the big picture here. All this nonsense is a blip on the radar screen of existence and will soon enough be gone. And I'll be gone long before that. I don't know why it's happening or to what end. The only possible choice I have is how to live my life in some small degree and I will have no idea ultimately if any choice I make is for better or not.
I dont see you see a big picture at all. I see you looking through a very nihilistic viewfinder. I dont gell with many of your views at all, as I am sure you can tell.
Quote:
I don't need to win this argument. It's already won. Things are as they are, have been and will be. I'm just acknowledging it. Not calling any of it right or wrong. I may not like it but that's unimportant imo.
arrogance personified
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,340
Last seen: 15 hours, 27 minutes
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz] 1
#15162297 - 10/01/11 11:39 AM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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you just lump them all together dont you?
Quote:
zzripz said:
I say that native american peoples RESPECTED the land and waters MORE than their conquerers did or continue to.
Yeah, you didn't lump them at all
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,340
Last seen: 15 hours, 27 minutes
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Kickle]
#15162312 - 10/01/11 11:45 AM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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How is that so--where is your proof. Poeples who understand the land and animals to be sacred OBVIOUSLY do not go that route.
the proof is in the natives. study some history, even the stories from the natives themselves. the natives took the white folks stuff and it wasn't because they found it repulsive. they had sex with the missionaries, especially the north-eastern tribes, and it wasn't because they found them offensive. the Iroquois became heavily entwined with the French fur traders coming in from Canada and supported them in their battles against the English. And not because they hated them
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15162315 - 10/01/11 11:46 AM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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All this and you present not one shred of evidence and proof of your case. Not one, not one. Just a bunch of ignorant romanticism of a people who you obviously know less than me about. I spent twenty years reading just about everything I could on them and their lifestyles and although the survival course was only five weeks long I'm sure that beats you by a country mile. Yes yes I know all about the vision quest and after it was done most went to war to prove how brave they were. You continue to gloss over their human nature in your quest to perfect them in your mind.
The cycles of nature that you personify creates lot of abundance and then scarcity causing starvation and death all throughout the kingdom. You want to romanticize everything about life likely due to your own insecurities.
Again I'm going to point out what a complete hypocrite you are using all the technology you vilify and benefiting from a culture that you support by doing so. Someone here is a HYPOCRITE and I know who it is.
I'm still waiting for you to share all your experiences as an indian and your proofs of how you know who they were and what they believed.
More on indian warfare. http://www.mpm.edu/wirp/ICW-35.html
as you can see some tribes were very big on torture.
Edited by Icelander (10/01/11 01:27 PM)
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zzripz
Stranger
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Kickle]
#15162919 - 10/01/11 02:18 PM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
you just lump them all together dont you?
Quote:
zzripz said:
I say that native american peoples RESPECTED the land and waters MORE than their conquerers did or continue to.
Yeah, you didn't lump them at all
Oh for fucks sake. Do you not understand what 'indigenous' means?
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zzripz
Stranger
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15162938 - 10/01/11 02:23 PM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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I give up with your horrendous worldviews. I pity how you experience native peoples, and wildlife, and the world in general. I will continue to speak my truth, whilst not wasting any effort on you two. It is beyond sad to me how people who claim they have had psychedelic experience can have such pessimistic views like you!
NOTHING will ever get through to people like you---however, never say never, but I am not holding my breath.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15162973 - 10/01/11 02:30 PM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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Wow, what a lame excuse for a reply. You have no evidence to back your nonsense claims so you resort to vague generalizations about things you are totally ignorant about. Like native americans and nature for instance. Seems you have no experience in this subject matter at all and have been talking out your  this whole time.
Go away an pout  until you are ready for your next post demonstrating how ignorant of reality you are.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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quinn
grimly predictable
Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 2,605
Loc: (usually) above sea level
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander] 2
#15163085 - 10/01/11 02:47 PM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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the indians were really peaceful and had a real connection with Nature. they had a deep understanding of Nature and were able to tame animals by linking their minds together with their tentacles.
that was how they were able to fight the technologically advanced invaders by flying around on those dragon things.
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a fucked of a fuckedness
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Brainstem
_@_y
Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell 
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zZZz]
#15163111 - 10/01/11 02:52 PM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
zZZz said:
anyone else notice? jeezus we are fucking ignorant and stupid, not everyone, but most of us. what a joke of a society we live in. what a pathetic game we play.
If you feel restricted and your liberty is challenged by our society and culture, then try to gain as realistic a degree of independence from it as you are able, and from independence gain liberty.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: quinn]
#15163272 - 10/01/11 03:33 PM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
quinn said:
the indians were really peaceful and had a real connection with Nature. they had a deep understanding of Nature and were able to tame animals by linking their minds together with their tentacles.
that was how they were able to fight the technologically advanced invaders by flying around on those dragon things.
QFT
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz] 1
#15163283 - 10/01/11 03:35 PM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
Kickle said:
you just lump them all together dont you?
Quote:
zzripz said:
I say that native american peoples RESPECTED the land and waters MORE than their conquerers did or continue to.
Yeah, you didn't lump them at all
Oh for fucks sake. Do you not understand what 'indigenous' means?
you didn't use the word indigenous to start. and second, you were talking about "their" respect for land and water not just the fact that "they" were conquered. you're a big ole hypocrite and can't stand having it pointed out in a debate.
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rainx
Pilgrim
Registered: 07/31/11
Posts: 146
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 7 months, 15 days
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Kickle]
#15163683 - 10/01/11 05:14 PM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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The Thread is "we have very little freedom"
Not "is one civilization better than others?"
My firm belief is that our Constitution was created with the idea that the INDIVIDUAL can rule himself, and that the role of government is to PROTECT the rights of the INDIVIDUAL.
In 2011, we have descended into the COLLECTIVE/government ruling the individual, and the role of the government is to protect the rights of the collective/government, f*k the individual....
As long as a citizen is not hurting another, he should be respected and LEFT ALONE....I don't care what lifestyle he chooses and what bad decisions he makes.
Essential to the idea of freedom is the right to make bad decisions, but you need to live with the consequences!
Freedom has been won by the blood of our friends, family, and ancestors.
It needs to be re-established and protected.
BTW: The only presidential candidate that has advocated and protected the Constitution is ...............
We need to support that candidate!
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"The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna" is best source of insight into the self, universe, and the entheogen catalyzed experience. Forward by Aldous Huxley.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: rainx]
#15163768 - 10/01/11 05:36 PM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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The only presidential candidate that has advocated and protected the Constitution is 
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15165158 - 10/02/11 01:06 AM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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Some native sayings:
http://www.angelfire.com/md/elanmichaels/naquotations.html
"How smooth must be the language of the whites, when they can make right look like wrong, and wrong like right."
-Black Hawk (Sauk)
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zzripz
Stranger
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Posts: 1,792
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15165430 - 10/02/11 04:27 AM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Wow, what a lame excuse for a reply. You have no evidence to back your nonsense claims so you resort to vague generalizations about things you are totally ignorant about. Like native americans and nature for instance. Seems you have no experience in this subject matter at all and have been talking out your this whole time.
Go away an pout until you are ready for your next post demonstrating how ignorant of reality you are.
You very much expose yourself to those who can see. Carry on, and one day YOU may come face to face with yourself.
So tell me all-great-knowing one, when you went on yer litte survial course with the natives, did you let them know what you thought of them and how you would insult them and their ancestors on forums such as this?
What did they say? Did they give you a discount?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: BlueCoyote]
#15165483 - 10/02/11 05:08 AM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said:
Some native sayings:
http://www.angelfire.com/md/elanmichaels/naquotations.html
"How smooth must be the language of the whites, when they can make right look like wrong, and wrong like right."
-Black Hawk (Sauk)
I never said anywhere that the American Indian had no spirituality. What's your point here and what's your experience here?
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15165487 - 10/02/11 05:12 AM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Wow, what a lame excuse for a reply. You have no evidence to back your nonsense claims so you resort to vague generalizations about things you are totally ignorant about. Like native americans and nature for instance. Seems you have no experience in this subject matter at all and have been talking out your this whole time.
Go away an pout until you are ready for your next post demonstrating how ignorant of reality you are.
You very much expose yourself to those who can see. Carry on, and one day YOU may come face to face with yourself.
So tell me all-great-knowing one, when you went on yer litte survial course with the natives, did you let them know what you thought of them and how you would insult them and their ancestors on forums such as this?
What did they say? Did they give you a discount?
More bullshit from you. More meaningless bullshit from someone who has no logical though process behind his beliefs and is unintelligent in discussion and without experience.
And when learning survival the subject of indian spirituality was never brought up by them. They were all about the business of how to survive in a harsh desert environment. There were no indians in our group and some were military types. Think our instructors cared about our beliefs as long as we paid for the course? If they did care they never asked.
I have much more respect for the Indian than you ever will imo due to the fact that I am willing to see them as human and real rather than a made up white mans fantasy.
What was your experience with the american indians again????
Edited by Icelander (10/02/11 05:17 AM)
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zzripz
Stranger
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15165557 - 10/02/11 05:53 AM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
More bullshit from you. More meaningless bullshit from someone who has no logical though process behind his beliefs and is unintelligent in discussion and without experience.
And when learning survival the subject of indian spirituality was never brought up by them. They were all about the business of how to survive in a harsh desert environment. There were no indians in our group and some were military types.
LOL
Quote:
Think our instructors cared about our beliefs as long as we paid for the course? If they did care they never asked.
I bet they didn't ...hah. get that money in that till boy! lol
Quote:
I have much more respect for the Indian than you ever will imo due to the fact that I am willing to see them as human and real rather than a made up white mans fantasy.
What was your experience with the american indians again????
Oh so now you claiming I dont see 'Indians' as human...? Ohhh this just gets better! And here's me---do they sheeeit??
Well MY experience. though you said yu was hangin with the soldiers. Like i say, mixed UP hmmmmmpggh
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zzripz
Stranger
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15165572 - 10/02/11 05:59 AM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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I wanna get back to subject of this thread: 'we have litte freedom'. I feel this and I know a LOT of people do. People all over are very stressed. They hate their jobs, hate the sense that they have no control over their lives, and the pace of life just gives them no space or time. There sense of being at peace is threatened. they dont feel part of the earth. If they claim this they can find themselves in forums supposedly about psychedelics with others tellin them they 'ARE FREE' so stfu and stop moanin, and that nature is mean and tough and theres no such thing as freedom so GET ON WITH IT. I recommend you ignore these people as best you can and ask questions why you dont feel free, and dont let anyone put you off.
EVEn when we 'lose it' and go 'mad' we are accused of being a defective machine and pushed drugs which suppress how we are really feeling
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15165576 - 10/02/11 06:02 AM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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And what was your actual experience with native americans again???
The fact that you do not understand your natural environment and how it operates is very good evidence that you do not understand who and what the native americans were.
It's a good thing you are coddled by a soft downy culture considering how little you understand your own planet and how it operates.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
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Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15165583 - 10/02/11 06:05 AM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
The fact that you do not understand your natural environment and how it operates is very good evidence that you do not understand who and what the native americans were.
It's a good thing you are coddled by a soft downy culture considering how little you understand your own planet and how it operates.
says natureboy who practically lives here. Let me guess? your in the bush with your laptop? LOL
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PatrickKn
Do Easy
Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 3,783
Last seen: 9 days, 21 hours
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15165593 - 10/02/11 06:11 AM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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I used to question my freedom quite a bit when I was in political science and very into the whole liberty ideology. It made me depressed and narcissistic.
Now I rarely think about it. I'm happier and more productive. My quality of life has dramatically increased as soon as I began to live rather than dwell on the forces that limit my freedom.
If that's what the powers that be want out of me, then I enjoy their game. You can call me a sheep for embracing this ideology, however I find it more fulfilling to work with a system rather than outright deny it and occupy all thought towards how badly I must be getting fucked over because I can't do anything and everything I want.
Are there bits of society I disagree with? Absolutely. Are there bits of my life I can change if I put my mind to them. Indeed.
However the root of the problem isn't that at all. Should I not fill out paper work that will allow me to better myself because I disagree with the bureaucratic system that produces said paper work? Absolutely not. Should I smoke a joint in front of a police officer simply because I disagree with the law prohibiting the act? Again, no I shouldn't. Should I not drive a car to get places since oil is a lucrative business? No, I need to get places.
To me, it's all about knowing where to draw the line and learning how to live life in a way that benefits you.
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Edited by PatrickKn (10/02/11 06:13 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15165622 - 10/02/11 06:26 AM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
The fact that you do not understand your natural environment and how it operates is very good evidence that you do not understand who and what the native americans were.
It's a good thing you are coddled by a soft downy culture considering how little you understand your own planet and how it operates.
says natureboy who practically lives here. Let me guess? your in the bush with your laptop? LOL
I've spent most of a whole summer in the back country taking no food but living off the land in the high desert.
What have you done city kid? Please share with all of us here.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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liquidlounge
Smart and sexy
Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 2,431
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15165668 - 10/02/11 06:41 AM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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Freedom is obtained in your mind, so yes, some of us have total freedom. Few, VERY few but some.
Physical freedom, i dont have but with the freedom i have inside my mind i want it, but do i really need it...
Circlez.
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PatrickKn
Do Easy
Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 3,783
Last seen: 9 days, 21 hours
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Freedom is an over rated word. So is liberty.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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It's very doubtful that you or anyone has total freedom in the mind. You are moved emotionally and physically by chemicals and hormones in ways most are not or barely aware of. If there were anyone that could overcome all of this you wouldn't be able to really know now would you? You'd be guessing or wishfully thinking.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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liquidlounge
Smart and sexy
Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 2,431
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15165768 - 10/02/11 07:21 AM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
It's very doubtful that you or anyone has total freedom in the mind. You are moved emotionally and physically by chemicals and hormones in ways most are not or barely aware of. If there were anyone that could overcome all of this you wouldn't be able to really know now would you? You'd be guessing or wishfully thinking.
What is total freedom (inside your mind)?
You dont even know or else you wouldnt question that some people do have total freedom inside their mind. So why start doubting that some have total freedom? 
I dont know, do you look at it like its numbers and maths? "Chemicals" 
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PatrickKn
Do Easy
Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 3,783
Last seen: 9 days, 21 hours
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Total freedom would consist of being inside a perfect vacuum (no particles whatsoever) and just spontaneously existing one day separate from any interaction that isn't you. 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
liquidlounge said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
It's very doubtful that you or anyone has total freedom in the mind. You are moved emotionally and physically by chemicals and hormones in ways most are not or barely aware of. If there were anyone that could overcome all of this you wouldn't be able to really know now would you? You'd be guessing or wishfully thinking.
What is total freedom (inside your mind)?
You dont even know or else you wouldnt question that some people do have total freedom inside their mind. So why start doubting that some have total freedom?
I dont know, do you look at it like its numbers and maths? "Chemicals"
Looks like you are the one who doesn't know. Anyone can claim anything and do. Show me how you know another has total freedom in their mind?? Please.
And it's always good to question things. Always. 
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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liquidlounge
Smart and sexy
Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 2,431
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15165881 - 10/02/11 07:53 AM (7 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
PatrickKn said:Looks like you are the one who doesn't know. Anyone can claim anything and do. Show me how you know another has total freedom in their mind?? Please.
And it's always good to question things. Always.
What freedom (inside my mind) is for me might not be freedom for you.
Why would i be the first person to ever achieve full freedom inside my mind (as i breathe and exist on this planet) on this planet?
Where did the word 'freedom' begin? Inside someones mind.
Are you looking for a definition of freedom?
Again: What freedom (inside my mind) is for me might not be freedom for you.
I dont understand why you question me having full freedom inside my mind.
I am free inside my mind.
Can you tell me what freedom inside your mind is for you?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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 What a bunch of contradictory nonsense.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,766
Loc: Sugar Town
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
You mean I could have had an ugly Japanese wife and been shot in the belly?
Yoko has big tits.
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Don't worry be happy.
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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A Native American said this--paraphrased--when asked his thoughts about western demands for 'freedom'. he said that all the talk is for freedom freedom, but what about responsibility?
Edited by zzripz (10/02/11 11:16 AM)
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LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,766
Loc: Sugar Town
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15166855 - 10/02/11 11:45 AM (7 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
A Native American said this--paraphrased--when asked his thoughts about western demands for 'freedom'. he said that all the talk is for freedom freedom, but what about responsibility?
Reckless abandonment on 4 wheelers pollutes the environment including increased irresponsibility. The scars in the soil and tarnish of the litter will not disappear soon. Fishermen can be reckless in the same manner. The freedom to be a motor head dumb ass. I mean you see these idiots with the big gas hog trucks pulling their big ass boats that they will tow some big drunk ass fool around on water skis later or hopefully die trying. That's why when the wind kicks up the sailors work with nature and the jet skiers go 4 wheelin. Make a little more noise and sling some mud around as we kill various animals in the process. Fuking motor heads.
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Don't worry be happy.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15166908 - 10/02/11 11:58 AM (7 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
A Native American said this--paraphrased--when asked his thoughts about western demands for 'freedom'. he said that all the talk is for freedom freedom, but what about responsibility?
Responsibility is not just pointing your finger at the other guy but seeing how you are also responsible for the way things are. Only hypocrites think that they can bitch about the way things are while still participating and making use of the technology and benefits of this culture.
And very few modern indians would go back to the old ways if they have at least a middle class lifestyle in this country.
Unfortunately they got the losers end of the stick when we came over and basically attempted to kill them all off. Many live in abject poverty without much hope. Sad but true of many conquerors throughout history. Actually America has treated some of it's adversaries better than they deserved imo. The Germans and Japanese come to mind. Had the Japanese conquered us we would have really had it hard from them.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15170077 - 10/03/11 01:22 AM (7 months, 23 days ago) |
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so yet agin i get the 'i am a hypocrite' implication--it is gettin tiresome laddio. you dont know the fuck about me so stop judging.
I am in this world, I suffer in this world (and have) so I have got a fukin right to voice my opinion, and people like you who think you know-it-all will not stop me.
So you personally went over and rid of them 'indians' did ya? Did even yer DAD do that? WHO of your family went over there and did that exactly? --if noone, who is 'we went over' meaning?
I do not associate me with the people that did that. I am WITH indigenous people. I far prefer their understanding to the ones who followed thinkers that cut their own bodies off from the natural world and community. The same mindset that landed in the 'new world' were the same who persecuted women, and 'heretics' and tortured, and murdered tthem en mass. A very sick mindset indeed.
And you claming the Japanese would have treated us hard, I SUPPOSE that means you support the nuculear bombing of the people, and all other species of Hiroshima, etc?
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 8,634
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 19 hours, 49 minutes
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15170309 - 10/03/11 04:27 AM (7 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
zZZz said:
anyone else notice? jeezus we are fucking ignorant and stupid, not everyone, but most of us. what a joke of a society we live in. what a pathetic game we play.
We are bound by the constraints of our genetics and physicality and particular animal nature. You can't think like the lion no matter how hard you try. What's interesting to reflect on is that we are a product of nature and the universe and creation at large. If we are "stupid" and do stupid things that is a reflection of creation at large. We cannot operate independently outside that system. This is why I believe humans created the myth of a conscious universe that is deliberately dumbing down as a game of remembering itself. We have to find a way to account for our stupidity and evil without condemning creation itself.
I disagree, of course. The creation has an origin, and that seems to be a fact. The lawfulness and symmetry that continue to manifest out of primal chaos (the biblical, metaphysical "waters," which the Spirit of God moved over, mythically), suggest teleology - ultimate purpose. At the quantum level, consciousness, observation of phenomena, seem integrally related to phenomena.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 8,634
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 19 hours, 49 minutes
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 Re: we have very little freedom [Re: crkhd]
#15170311 - 10/03/11 04:28 AM (7 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
crkhd said:
Disagree totally. We have total freedom. I may not, you may not but WE do.
Nothing is compelling you to go with the system.
Nothing is compelling you to follow your desires.
I concur with you on the above.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (10/05/11 02:08 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15170659 - 10/03/11 07:00 AM (7 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
so yet agin i get the 'i am a hypocrite' implication--it is gettin tiresome laddio. you dont know the fuck about me so stop judging.
I am in this world, I suffer in this world (and have) so I have got a fukin right to voice my opinion, and people like you who think you know-it-all will not stop me.
So you personally went over and rid of them 'indians' did ya? Did even yer DAD do that? WHO of your family went over there and did that exactly? --if noone, who is 'we went over' meaning?
I do not associate me with the people that did that. I am WITH indigenous people. I far prefer their understanding to the ones who followed thinkers that cut their own bodies off from the natural world and community. The same mindset that landed in the 'new world' were the same who persecuted women, and 'heretics' and tortured, and murdered tthem en mass. A very sick mindset indeed.
And you claming the Japanese would have treated us hard, I SUPPOSE that means you support the nuculear bombing of the people, and all other species of Hiroshima, etc?
Yes it's hypocritical and that is evident in your posts and refusal to answer direct questions which I asked over and over again and you ignored.
If you study the history of Japanese warfare and how they treated their enemies you might have a clue what I'm talking about. But of course you don't .
You have been ignorant in all aspects of this debate.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
Edited by Icelander (10/05/11 06:05 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
zZZz said:
anyone else notice? jeezus we are fucking ignorant and stupid, not everyone, but most of us. what a joke of a society we live in. what a pathetic game we play.
We are bound by the constraints of our genetics and physicality and particular animal nature. You can't think like the lion no matter how hard you try. What's interesting to reflect on is that we are a product of nature and the universe and creation at large. If we are "stupid" and do stupid things that is a reflection of creation at large. We cannot operate independently outside that system. This is why I believe humans created the myth of a conscious universe that is deliberately dumbing down as a game of remembering itself. We have to find a way to account for our stupidity and evil without condemning creation itself.
I disagree, of course. The creation has an origin, and that seems to be a fact. The lawfulness and symmetry that continue to manifest out of primal chaos (the biblical, metaphysical "waters," which the Spirit of God moved over, mythically), suggest teleology - ultimate purpose. At the quantum level, consciousness, observation of phenomena, seem integrally related to phenomena.
You have every right to an opinion.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
|
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
crkhd said:
Disagree totally. We have total freedom. I may not, you may not but WE do.
Nothing is compelling you to go with the system.
Nothing is compelling you to follow your desires.
However you have chosen your shape and that alone limits your freedom.
I concur with you.
This is nonsense. I did not choose my human shape.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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crkhd
☾☼☽
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 1,254
Loc: A human sphere enfolding ...
Last seen: 12 minutes, 11 seconds
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15170937 - 10/03/11 08:28 AM (7 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
This is nonsense. I did not choose my human shape.
Poor me, all separate and alone.
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SHABOOM
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: crkhd]
#15171156 - 10/03/11 09:32 AM (7 months, 23 days ago) |
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Poor you all confused and insecure.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
crkhd
☾☼☽
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 1,254
Loc: A human sphere enfolding ...
Last seen: 12 minutes, 11 seconds
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15171355 - 10/03/11 10:34 AM (7 months, 22 days ago) |
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Stop projecting yourself onto me.
So pray tell, where exactly did you not choose your own shape? Keeping in mind of course that your neurons & genetic inclination restrict the range of possibilities you may fathom. What chose your shape? And what really is your shape? All you experience ever is contained within yourself. That is what you are, after all.
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SHABOOM
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: crkhd]
#15171607 - 10/03/11 11:35 AM (7 months, 22 days ago) |
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Evolution created my shape. That seems obvious. Nothing choose my shape unless you believe in the Christian god or other nonsense. Even if my brain creates the image I did not create my brain. Back to evolution.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15179770 - 10/05/11 01:44 AM (7 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
zzripz said:
so yet agin i get the 'i am a hypocrite' implication--it is gettin tiresome laddio. you dont know the fuck about me so stop judging.
I am in this world, I suffer in this world (and have) so I have got a fukin right to voice my opinion, and people like you who think you know-it-all will not stop me.
So you personally went over and rid of them 'indians' did ya? Did even yer DAD do that? WHO of your family went over there and did that exactly? --if noone, who is 'we went over' meaning?
I do not associate me with the people that did that. I am WITH indigenous people. I far prefer their understanding to the ones who followed thinkers that cut their own bodies off from the natural world and community. The same mindset that landed in the 'new world' were the same who persecuted women, and 'heretics' and tortured, and murdered tthem en mass. A very sick mindset indeed.
And you claming the Japanese would have treated us hard, I SUPPOSE that means you support the nuculear bombing of the people, and all other species of Hiroshima, etc?
Yes you are a hypocrite and that is evident in your posts and refusal to answer direct questions which I asked over and over again and you ignored.
If you study the history of Japanese warfare and how they treated their enemies you might have a clue what I'm talking about. But of course you don't .
You have been ignorant in all aspects of this debate.
are you not breaking the rules talking to me like this?
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15179779 - 10/05/11 01:50 AM (7 months, 21 days ago) |
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Seems what you saying is this: The 'Japanese' treated their enemies terribly, so that means the dropping of nuclear bombs onto cities full of humans, including innocent people, children infants, babies, unborn babies, and all other species, including all forms of life, was justified? Is this what your saying?
I have already had a one day ban for rudeness, so I am not going to stand for any rudeness either then.
So is that what you are meaning.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15180017 - 10/05/11 05:03 AM (7 months, 21 days ago) |
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The Japanese attacked America. Japan is a country made up of people who constitute that country. Are they responsible for going to war against us? Did they bring retaliation down on themselves. The answer is yes. Were there protests in the Japanese streets against the bombing at Pearl Harbor?
Did America do the unthinkable and rebuild Japan after the war. Yes.
Would the Japs have done that for us. NO!
So as you would say, they created their own reality.
OK I apologize for calling you personally a hypocrite. IMO your posts are some of the most dishonest and hypocritical I've seen in these forums.
Edited by Icelander (10/05/11 06:07 AM)
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15180216 - 10/05/11 06:38 AM (7 months, 21 days ago) |
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lol you are amazing, in one paragraph yopu apologize, and then finish with insulting me again thus nulling the apology. OK, look Icelander so as not to let this get out of hand I will just say this and then will follow on if possible with your argument----I personally HATE moderation. I think passion is important, and there are ways it can get points across as long as it doesn't go crazy. BUT IF I get a warning , I am not gonna let others flout the rules neither. So let us then draw a line and carry on, if so without breakin da rules. agreed?
Now, I am saying you have got it wrong about your Japan worldview, different levels: first one, and most important to me. NOTHING, NOTHING, would EVER justify what the Americans, and by 'Americans' I mean the ones who ordered the nuclear attacks, the supporters, and the ones who dropped the bombs, and the ones who support this action in media, forums, etc etc----so this would then include non-Americans also, because other people support what was done.
Another level that is really important, but I always need to make clear that EVEN if this weren't so it still would not justify what they did. Ie., the propaganda was 'we had to do it to save American lives'....That is obscene in itself.
Another level, if you were concerned about the way japanes treated Americans, etc, what the hell about the way Americans have treated Islamic peoples, and peoples they have fucked with in their soc-called American Foreign Policy...? If some crazed goons come and dop a nuke on YOUR hed and fry YOUR loved ones (if your American, or whatever), you gonna welcome it in your scheme of acceptable retaliations, OR would you wish for worse?
Anyway listen. The American people were lied to by President Truman man, and the propaganda machine. There was absolutely NO need to drop the nuclear bombs on human beings and all life at all, and the real reason was a warning to RUSSIA not to mess with 'big bad America--or else'. If you dont believe this. make some effort to watch this video, and I also made a transcript of the relevant bits:
The Pathology of Power http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/1120.html
7:40 “President Truman, as we see from his own diary, didn’t tell the American people the truth…
The documents are very clear…
that shows that the Japanese were getting ready to prepare to surrender, and that if we could give them what they wanted, to maintain the institution of the emperor, that the war could end almost immediately. This was in the summer of 1945.
We have Truman’s own diary…
Eisenhower when he found out that they were going to use the atomic bomb on human beings said of a feeling of sickness overcoming him that the U.S would use this weapon…especially when he knew it was not necessary.
Admiral Leahy who was Truman’s military advisor argued with the president, saying it was a barbarous weapon, and there is no military justification for the use of this weapon.
Well, we see all the evidence, and then we have to ask ourselves the question why, if the president knew that he could end the war without the bomb what justification could there be for taking 200,000 lives at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and then we begin to get a clue in the records…and what emerges from this is that the United States felt it had to demonstrate the power of the bomb in order to make the Russians more manageable in the post-war world.
The American people were not told this.
The American people were told we had to drop the bomb in order to spare lives that would be the cost on an invasion, but the joint chiefs of staff had alerted our filed commanders to prepare for Japanese surrender without an invasion, because they knew that Japan couldn’t continue for very long…[then see how Norman Cousins refutes the interviewer's suggestion that these facts are merely “interpretation”!]
IF, at the end of this effort to open your eyes to this you still insist your worldview is the right one, then I cannot see what could do it quite frankly.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15180296 - 10/05/11 07:02 AM (7 months, 21 days ago) |
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I'm the last guy here to justify all of americas policies abroad. I'm highly suspect of all most all of them.
However I've come to the conclusion that I'm going to deal with the world as it is rather than what I unrealistically (imo) want it to be. Sad but true.
Now I never stated I was in favor of dropping that bomb but I must say it wouldn't have happened if they had not attacked america and sided with germany in WWII.
And here's another way to see it. Lets say you or I was going to have to be that soldier who had to invade and likely die a pretty horrible death to defeat Japan. Considering it was their intent to fight to the very last man as they stated? Think about the many thousands who would have died to accomplish this against an insane enemy culture. Maybe your dad and you would never have been born.
Finally I apologized for the personalism which is against forum guidelines and not for my opinion of your behaviors on this debate forum.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
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