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 MarkostheGnostic
Elder
 
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 8,634
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 19 hours, 49 minutes
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 Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15170309 - 10/03/11 04:27 AM (7 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
zZZz said:
anyone else notice? jeezus we are fucking ignorant and stupid, not everyone, but most of us. what a joke of a society we live in. what a pathetic game we play.
We are bound by the constraints of our genetics and physicality and particular animal nature. You can't think like the lion no matter how hard you try. What's interesting to reflect on is that we are a product of nature and the universe and creation at large. If we are "stupid" and do stupid things that is a reflection of creation at large. We cannot operate independently outside that system. This is why I believe humans created the myth of a conscious universe that is deliberately dumbing down as a game of remembering itself. We have to find a way to account for our stupidity and evil without condemning creation itself.
I disagree, of course. The creation has an origin, and that seems to be a fact. The lawfulness and symmetry that continue to manifest out of primal chaos (the biblical, metaphysical "waters," which the Spirit of God moved over, mythically), suggest teleology - ultimate purpose. At the quantum level, consciousness, observation of phenomena, seem integrally related to phenomena.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 8,634
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 19 hours, 49 minutes
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 Re: we have very little freedom [Re: crkhd]
#15170311 - 10/03/11 04:28 AM (7 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
crkhd said:
Disagree totally. We have total freedom. I may not, you may not but WE do.
Nothing is compelling you to go with the system.
Nothing is compelling you to follow your desires.
I concur with you on the above.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (10/05/11 02:08 PM)
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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15170659 - 10/03/11 07:00 AM (7 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
so yet agin i get the 'i am a hypocrite' implication--it is gettin tiresome laddio. you dont know the fuck about me so stop judging.
I am in this world, I suffer in this world (and have) so I have got a fukin right to voice my opinion, and people like you who think you know-it-all will not stop me.
So you personally went over and rid of them 'indians' did ya? Did even yer DAD do that? WHO of your family went over there and did that exactly? --if noone, who is 'we went over' meaning?
I do not associate me with the people that did that. I am WITH indigenous people. I far prefer their understanding to the ones who followed thinkers that cut their own bodies off from the natural world and community. The same mindset that landed in the 'new world' were the same who persecuted women, and 'heretics' and tortured, and murdered tthem en mass. A very sick mindset indeed.
And you claming the Japanese would have treated us hard, I SUPPOSE that means you support the nuculear bombing of the people, and all other species of Hiroshima, etc?
Yes it's hypocritical and that is evident in your posts and refusal to answer direct questions which I asked over and over again and you ignored.
If you study the history of Japanese warfare and how they treated their enemies you might have a clue what I'm talking about. But of course you don't .
You have been ignorant in all aspects of this debate.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
Edited by Icelander (10/05/11 06:05 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
zZZz said:
anyone else notice? jeezus we are fucking ignorant and stupid, not everyone, but most of us. what a joke of a society we live in. what a pathetic game we play.
We are bound by the constraints of our genetics and physicality and particular animal nature. You can't think like the lion no matter how hard you try. What's interesting to reflect on is that we are a product of nature and the universe and creation at large. If we are "stupid" and do stupid things that is a reflection of creation at large. We cannot operate independently outside that system. This is why I believe humans created the myth of a conscious universe that is deliberately dumbing down as a game of remembering itself. We have to find a way to account for our stupidity and evil without condemning creation itself.
I disagree, of course. The creation has an origin, and that seems to be a fact. The lawfulness and symmetry that continue to manifest out of primal chaos (the biblical, metaphysical "waters," which the Spirit of God moved over, mythically), suggest teleology - ultimate purpose. At the quantum level, consciousness, observation of phenomena, seem integrally related to phenomena.
You have every right to an opinion. 
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
crkhd said:
Disagree totally. We have total freedom. I may not, you may not but WE do.
Nothing is compelling you to go with the system.
Nothing is compelling you to follow your desires.
However you have chosen your shape and that alone limits your freedom.
I concur with you.
This is nonsense. I did not choose my human shape. 
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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crkhd
☾☼☽
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 1,254
Loc: A human sphere enfolding ...
Last seen: 12 minutes, 6 seconds
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15170937 - 10/03/11 08:28 AM (7 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
This is nonsense. I did not choose my human shape.
Poor me, all separate and alone.
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SHABOOM
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: crkhd]
#15171156 - 10/03/11 09:32 AM (7 months, 23 days ago) |
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Poor you all confused and insecure.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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crkhd
☾☼☽
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 1,254
Loc: A human sphere enfolding ...
Last seen: 12 minutes, 6 seconds
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15171355 - 10/03/11 10:34 AM (7 months, 22 days ago) |
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Stop projecting yourself onto me.
So pray tell, where exactly did you not choose your own shape? Keeping in mind of course that your neurons & genetic inclination restrict the range of possibilities you may fathom. What chose your shape? And what really is your shape? All you experience ever is contained within yourself. That is what you are, after all.
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SHABOOM
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: crkhd]
#15171607 - 10/03/11 11:35 AM (7 months, 22 days ago) |
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Evolution created my shape. That seems obvious. Nothing choose my shape unless you believe in the Christian god or other nonsense. Even if my brain creates the image I did not create my brain. Back to evolution.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15179770 - 10/05/11 01:44 AM (7 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
zzripz said:
so yet agin i get the 'i am a hypocrite' implication--it is gettin tiresome laddio. you dont know the fuck about me so stop judging.
I am in this world, I suffer in this world (and have) so I have got a fukin right to voice my opinion, and people like you who think you know-it-all will not stop me.
So you personally went over and rid of them 'indians' did ya? Did even yer DAD do that? WHO of your family went over there and did that exactly? --if noone, who is 'we went over' meaning?
I do not associate me with the people that did that. I am WITH indigenous people. I far prefer their understanding to the ones who followed thinkers that cut their own bodies off from the natural world and community. The same mindset that landed in the 'new world' were the same who persecuted women, and 'heretics' and tortured, and murdered tthem en mass. A very sick mindset indeed.
And you claming the Japanese would have treated us hard, I SUPPOSE that means you support the nuculear bombing of the people, and all other species of Hiroshima, etc?
Yes you are a hypocrite and that is evident in your posts and refusal to answer direct questions which I asked over and over again and you ignored.
If you study the history of Japanese warfare and how they treated their enemies you might have a clue what I'm talking about. But of course you don't .
You have been ignorant in all aspects of this debate.
are you not breaking the rules talking to me like this?
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15179779 - 10/05/11 01:50 AM (7 months, 21 days ago) |
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Seems what you saying is this: The 'Japanese' treated their enemies terribly, so that means the dropping of nuclear bombs onto cities full of humans, including innocent people, children infants, babies, unborn babies, and all other species, including all forms of life, was justified? Is this what your saying?
I have already had a one day ban for rudeness, so I am not going to stand for any rudeness either then.
So is that what you are meaning.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15180017 - 10/05/11 05:03 AM (7 months, 21 days ago) |
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The Japanese attacked America. Japan is a country made up of people who constitute that country. Are they responsible for going to war against us? Did they bring retaliation down on themselves. The answer is yes. Were there protests in the Japanese streets against the bombing at Pearl Harbor?
Did America do the unthinkable and rebuild Japan after the war. Yes.
Would the Japs have done that for us. NO!
So as you would say, they created their own reality.
OK I apologize for calling you personally a hypocrite. IMO your posts are some of the most dishonest and hypocritical I've seen in these forums.
Edited by Icelander (10/05/11 06:07 AM)
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: Icelander]
#15180216 - 10/05/11 06:38 AM (7 months, 21 days ago) |
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lol you are amazing, in one paragraph yopu apologize, and then finish with insulting me again thus nulling the apology. OK, look Icelander so as not to let this get out of hand I will just say this and then will follow on if possible with your argument----I personally HATE moderation. I think passion is important, and there are ways it can get points across as long as it doesn't go crazy. BUT IF I get a warning , I am not gonna let others flout the rules neither. So let us then draw a line and carry on, if so without breakin da rules. agreed?
Now, I am saying you have got it wrong about your Japan worldview, different levels: first one, and most important to me. NOTHING, NOTHING, would EVER justify what the Americans, and by 'Americans' I mean the ones who ordered the nuclear attacks, the supporters, and the ones who dropped the bombs, and the ones who support this action in media, forums, etc etc----so this would then include non-Americans also, because other people support what was done.
Another level that is really important, but I always need to make clear that EVEN if this weren't so it still would not justify what they did. Ie., the propaganda was 'we had to do it to save American lives'....That is obscene in itself.
Another level, if you were concerned about the way japanes treated Americans, etc, what the hell about the way Americans have treated Islamic peoples, and peoples they have fucked with in their soc-called American Foreign Policy...? If some crazed goons come and dop a nuke on YOUR hed and fry YOUR loved ones (if your American, or whatever), you gonna welcome it in your scheme of acceptable retaliations, OR would you wish for worse?
Anyway listen. The American people were lied to by President Truman man, and the propaganda machine. There was absolutely NO need to drop the nuclear bombs on human beings and all life at all, and the real reason was a warning to RUSSIA not to mess with 'big bad America--or else'. If you dont believe this. make some effort to watch this video, and I also made a transcript of the relevant bits:
The Pathology of Power http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/1120.html
7:40 “President Truman, as we see from his own diary, didn’t tell the American people the truth…
The documents are very clear…
that shows that the Japanese were getting ready to prepare to surrender, and that if we could give them what they wanted, to maintain the institution of the emperor, that the war could end almost immediately. This was in the summer of 1945.
We have Truman’s own diary…
Eisenhower when he found out that they were going to use the atomic bomb on human beings said of a feeling of sickness overcoming him that the U.S would use this weapon…especially when he knew it was not necessary.
Admiral Leahy who was Truman’s military advisor argued with the president, saying it was a barbarous weapon, and there is no military justification for the use of this weapon.
Well, we see all the evidence, and then we have to ask ourselves the question why, if the president knew that he could end the war without the bomb what justification could there be for taking 200,000 lives at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and then we begin to get a clue in the records…and what emerges from this is that the United States felt it had to demonstrate the power of the bomb in order to make the Russians more manageable in the post-war world.
The American people were not told this.
The American people were told we had to drop the bomb in order to spare lives that would be the cost on an invasion, but the joint chiefs of staff had alerted our filed commanders to prepare for Japanese surrender without an invasion, because they knew that Japan couldn’t continue for very long…[then see how Norman Cousins refutes the interviewer's suggestion that these facts are merely “interpretation”!]
IF, at the end of this effort to open your eyes to this you still insist your worldview is the right one, then I cannot see what could do it quite frankly.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,594
Loc: underbelly
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Re: we have very little freedom [Re: zzripz]
#15180296 - 10/05/11 07:02 AM (7 months, 21 days ago) |
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I'm the last guy here to justify all of americas policies abroad. I'm highly suspect of all most all of them.
However I've come to the conclusion that I'm going to deal with the world as it is rather than what I unrealistically (imo) want it to be. Sad but true.
Now I never stated I was in favor of dropping that bomb but I must say it wouldn't have happened if they had not attacked america and sided with germany in WWII.
And here's another way to see it. Lets say you or I was going to have to be that soldier who had to invade and likely die a pretty horrible death to defeat Japan. Considering it was their intent to fight to the very last man as they stated? Think about the many thousands who would have died to accomplish this against an insane enemy culture. Maybe your dad and you would never have been born.
Finally I apologized for the personalism which is against forum guidelines and not for my opinion of your behaviors on this debate forum.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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