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 zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,547
Last seen: 46 seconds
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 Re: #occupywallstreet happening now! [Re: wildchild68]
#15803605 - 02/13/12 02:33 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
wildchild68 said:
as long as you still think obama shares the same mindset as OWS, then you will continually expose how little understanding you have of the situation.
I do not think he has the same "mindset". The OWStards want the government to give them free shit so they don't have to work and earn it. Obama wants the government to give them free shit so that he can control who gets free shit. The OWStards don't realize that government handouts come at a great price, the loss of personal sovereignty.Quote:
i realize you'll continue to focus on one aspect of OWS, but you always miss the bigger picture. OWS started as a reaction to the massive amount of bullshit that has gone down on wall street over the past 10 years.
Ignorant morons think it was Wall Street perfidy that caused this mess. It was not. It was government policy that coerced Wall Street into lending money to losers and assholes that Wall Street never would have lent a fucking nickel to on their own. Further, the boil of that policy only burst when the losers and assholes didn't pay their mortgages. It wasn't Wall Street that defaulted on record numbers of mortgages. It was the assholes who never should have gotten them. That right there is the real "Big Picture".Quote:
you honestly think obama is against all that shit when he receives huge sums of money in campaign contributions from wall street and appoints disgustingly corrupt bankers to his cabinet?
What corrupt bankers has he appointed? I suspect you will say, "all of them, they are all corrupt." That's just fucking stupid. The financial industry is and has been for decades the most heavily regulated industry in the country.Quote:
please, obama is just as in on it as the rest of the government.
I agree that most people in the government want to expand government power and control. So do the OWStards but for a different reason.Quote:
he might make some public statements that say otherwise, but look behind the curtains and it's all the same. he's trying to secure the youth vote for a second term, nothing more.
I agree. He is trying to secure the youth vote. But that's because they are the last large group of idiots who don't realize that it is going to be them stuck with the bill ($15T debt and they want more). That's why I call them OWStards.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,547
Last seen: 46 seconds
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Re: #occupywallstreet happening now! [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#15803636 - 02/13/12 02:40 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:
underfliptown said:
Dude i really don't get where your coming from. You are more than welcome to speak your mind wherever you are. There are no laws against speech. There may be people who have been arrested, but i find it extremely hard to believe that any REAL pentalty is being served for this kind of thiing.
They are exaggerating.
The pertinent section of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms:
2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
(a) freedom of conscience and religion;
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(d) freedom of association.
What they are referring to is to limitation clause of the charter:
The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.
Which basically means that the Canadian gov't is free to restrict freedom of expression if it can demonstrate a justifiable cause. Now, yes, theoretically the gov't could always find a way to impose a 'reasonable limit' on just about any type of speech--but if you actually look, the only type of speech currently not included under freedom of expression is speech meant to publicly incite hatred against people based on their colour, race, religion, ethnic origin, and sexual orientation (except where the statements made are true or are made in good faith), or speech meant to promote genocide.
I, for one, have no problem with this. Attempting to restrict the freedoms of others is not a freedom I have any desire to protect.
Besides, if anyone is under the illusion that free speech actually exists under any government, they are sadly mistaken. A dog never knows it's tied up unless it walks to the limit of its leash. You only have freedom of speech as long as you continue to not say anything threatening to the system--but speak out of turn and watch how fast your voice gets silenced.
So you think it is OK to arrest someone in Canada for calling someone a "sandnigger"? Are you aware of the Human Rights Commissions and the Macleans case? How does me calling someone a sandnigger restrict their freedom?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Human_Rights_Commission_free_speech_controversy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_complaints_against_Maclean%27s_magazine
It cost these people millions of dollars to get this stupid shit thrown out and it wasn't at all a sure thing that it would be thrown out.
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 shivas.wisdom
בּ וואלה
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 4,929
Loc: Turtle Island 
Last seen: 1 month, 15 days
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Re: #occupywallstreet happening now! [Re: zappaisgod] 1
#15803716 - 02/13/12 02:56 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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The Macleans thing was stupid, I agree, but it was thrown out. The limitation does lead to stupid accusations, and the bloated bureaucratic process lets them drag on much longer then they should--but it's not exactly being used as a gov't tool to silence the people.
As for jailing someone for calling another person a 'sandnigger'--no I wouldn't. Beyond the fact I don't believe in prisons, the actual word(s) said are not, as I see it, what justify someone's speech as hate inciting--rather, it is in the context. Even then, I wouldn't go so far as to jail someone for oppressive language--I just won't go so far the other way to protect it along with the rest of free speech either. Disclaimer, the gov't may not necessarily see things the same way.
Now, if I had my way, there would be no law--but seeing as how there currently are a whole bunch, the limitation clause in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms does not stand at the forefront for laws having a severe impact on my life--relatively, of course. That's where I stand on it. Perfect? No. As bad as pris and lds would have had people believe (to the extent of essentially nullifying freedom of expression of Canada)? Also no.
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Sulfurshelfsean
Defender of Cubes
Registered: 07/29/10
Posts: 358
Last seen: 12 hours, 17 minutes
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Re: #occupywallstreet happening now! [Re: zappaisgod]
#15803769 - 02/13/12 03:05 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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 Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 152,714
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck 
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Re: #occupywallstreet happening now! [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#15803977 - 02/13/12 03:49 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
They are exaggerating.
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
What they are referring to is to limitation clause of the charter:
Which basically means that the Canadian gov't is free to restrict freedom of expression if it can demonstrate a justifiable cause.
so in fact we are not exaggerating because the government placed a
provision there to allow them to restrict free speech, something
they've already done as has been demonstrated. it cant be both ways,
you either have free speech or you dont
Quote:
Now, yes, theoretically the gov't could always find a way to impose a 'reasonable limit' on just about any type of speech--but if you actually look, the only type of speech currently not included under freedom of expression is speech meant to publicly incite hatred against people based on their colour, race, religion, ethnic origin, and sexual orientation (except where the statements made are true or are made in good faith), or speech meant to promote genocide.
so then, you have no free speech, at what point will hatred toward the
government be restricted, they've already shown they can and will stop
certain groups from speaking freely and at what time do they stop the
other mediums of communication, they're already allowing the US DHS to
censor canadian websites for canadians, there was a thread about it in OTD
a few days ago or maybe it;s the canadian officials censoring it but using
the DHS place marker so they can lift the blame from themselves
Quote:
I, for one, have no problem with this. Attempting to restrict the freedoms of others is not a freedom I have any desire to protect.
this makes no sense, just because someone chooses to say something along
the lines of 'god hates fags' doesnt mean they're stripping others of
their rights yet you support stripping those people of their rights
because you dont agree with their message
Quote:
Besides, if anyone is under the illusion that free speech actually exists under any government, they are sadly mistaken. A dog never knows it's tied up unless it walks to the limit of its leash. You only have freedom of speech as long as you continue to not say anything threatening to the system--but speak out of turn and watch how fast your voice gets silenced.
I've been speaking against government for more than a decade, calling for
people to have a revolution, I've been telling people to stop believing in
the system that the government is pushing and to oust the politicians
currently in office. what you're saying is no more than conspiracy theory
garbage... of course you also claim canadians have free speech
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 152,714
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Quote:
Sulfurshelfsean said:
http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/september-2011/sovereign-citizens
Definitely true about the war on personal sovereignty.
there is no personal sovereignty to wage war on
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Anthony
M1 A1
Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3,719
Loc: earth
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: #occupywallstreet happening now! [Re: Prisoner#1]
#15804596 - 02/13/12 05:33 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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pris you are spot on. Shiva, you can say whatever you want in the united states. I can walk up to president odonga and say "I think you're a useless nigger piece of shit" and nothing will happen to me. I mean....I probably won't get to talk to odonga anymore, but I won't be imprisoned for it.
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Trippin? Click Me...... Me too!
 
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shivas.wisdom
בּ וואלה
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 4,929
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 1 month, 15 days
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Re: #occupywallstreet happening now! [Re: Prisoner#1]
#15804602 - 02/13/12 05:34 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
so in fact we are not exaggerating because the government placed a
provision there to allow them to restrict free speech, something
they've already done as has been demonstrated. it cant be both ways,
you either have free speech or you dont
so then, you have no free speech, at what point will hatred toward the
government be restricted, they've already shown they can and will stop
certain groups from speaking freely and at what time do they stop the
other mediums of communication, they're already allowing the US DHS to
censor canadian websites for canadians, there was a thread about it in OTD
a few days ago or maybe it;s the canadian officials censoring it but using
the DHS place marker so they can lift the blame from themselves
if you want to play it that way, then yes, Canada does not actually have freedom of expression--but I contend that no country actually does. Canada may be slightly unique in having a limitation clause, but--relatively speaking, as laws go--it is more a misdirected effort to protect people from people rather than a sinister plot to strip them of their rights--even though it has the potential to be used as the later, it only has a history of being used as the former. Any gov't can reach the point of restricting hatred toward themselves, that being said, Canada isn't at that point yet so bringing it up is irrelevant. As for the censorship, never heard of it but our current federal gov't is effed and I don't defend them.
Quote:
Quote:
I, for one, have no problem with this. Attempting to restrict the freedoms of others is not a freedom I have any desire to protect.
this makes no sense, just because someone chooses to say something along
the lines of 'god hates fags' doesnt mean they're stripping others of
their rights yet you support stripping those people of their rights
because you dont agree with their message
Once again, it is not just the words said, but also the context they are used in, that leads me to draw my conclusions. I agree, merely saying offensive things does not mean one is attempting to strip others of their rights. As far as I am aware, it is not actively used to prosecute a teenager for a racial slur--but rather when it is largely publicized speech with the intent to incite hatred. There is a difference, and I don't stand for the latter. Maybe it's a little hypocritical, but I never claimed to not be one.
Quote:
I've been speaking against government for more than a decade, calling for
people to have a revolution, I've been telling people to stop believing in
the system that the government is pushing and to oust the politicians
currently in office. what you're saying is no more than conspiracy theory
garbage... of course you also claim canadians have free speech
I only claim the Canadians have free speech to the same extent that any country claiming 'free speech' does. Behold, free speech.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 4,806
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 43 minutes, 17 seconds
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Re: #occupywallstreet happening now! [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#15804613 - 02/13/12 05:36 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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I can't believe the same 5 people are arguing about this.
Get over yourselves.
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shivas.wisdom
בּ וואלה
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 4,929
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 1 month, 15 days
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Re: #occupywallstreet happening now! [Re: Anthony] 1
#15804635 - 02/13/12 05:40 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Anthony said:
pris you are spot on. Shiva, you can say whatever you want in the united states. I can walk up to president odonga and say "I think you're a useless nigger piece of shit" and nothing will happen to me. I mean....I probably won't get to talk to odonga anymore, but I won't be imprisoned for it.
Yes, in the good ol' US of A the government can only regulate the time, place, and manner—but not content—of expression. Truly, complete freedom of expression.
Try talking about terrorism in the lobby of any large public space and see how long you are allowed to continue such behaviour.
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Anthony
M1 A1
Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3,719
Loc: earth
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: #occupywallstreet happening now! [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#15804655 - 02/13/12 05:44 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
I only claim the Canadians have free speech to the same extent that any country claiming 'free speech' does. Behold, free speech.
that speech looked absolutely free to me. I don't see what you're trying to get at
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Trippin? Click Me...... Me too!
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akira_akuma
Recalcitrant
Registered: 08/27/09
Posts: 18,263
Loc: current position: in Cana...
Last seen: 10 hours, 19 minutes
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Re: #occupywallstreet happening now! [Re: zappaisgod]
#15805084 - 02/13/12 06:50 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:
underfliptown said:
Dude i really don't get where your coming from. You are more than welcome to speak your mind wherever you are. There are no laws against speech. There may be people who have been arrested, but i find it extremely hard to believe that any REAL pentalty is being served for this kind of thiing.
They are exaggerating.
The pertinent section of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms:
2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
(a) freedom of conscience and religion;
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(d) freedom of association.
What they are referring to is to limitation clause of the charter:
The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.
Which basically means that the Canadian gov't is free to restrict freedom of expression if it can demonstrate a justifiable cause. Now, yes, theoretically the gov't could always find a way to impose a 'reasonable limit' on just about any type of speech--but if you actually look, the only type of speech currently not included under freedom of expression is speech meant to publicly incite hatred against people based on their colour, race, religion, ethnic origin, and sexual orientation (except where the statements made are true or are made in good faith), or speech meant to promote genocide.
I, for one, have no problem with this. Attempting to restrict the freedoms of others is not a freedom I have any desire to protect.
Besides, if anyone is under the illusion that free speech actually exists under any government, they are sadly mistaken. A dog never knows it's tied up unless it walks to the limit of its leash. You only have freedom of speech as long as you continue to not say anything threatening to the system--but speak out of turn and watch how fast your voice gets silenced.
So you think it is OK to arrest someone in Canada for calling someone a "sandnigger"? Are you aware of the Human Rights Commissions and the Macleans case? How does me calling someone a sandnigger restrict their freedom?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Human_Rights_Commission_free_speech_controversy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_complaints_against_Maclean%27s_magazine
It cost these people millions of dollars to get this stupid shit thrown out and it wasn't at all a sure thing that it would be thrown out.
good example.
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underfliptown
Just another person.
Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 4,361
Last seen: 29 minutes, 50 seconds
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Re: #occupywallstreet happening now! [Re: akira_akuma]
#15805096 - 02/13/12 06:53 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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^^ good point!
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wildchild68
lion in a coma
Registered: 11/19/07
Posts: 5,112
Last seen: 3 days, 13 hours
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Re: #occupywallstreet happening now! [Re: Anthony]
#15805229 - 02/13/12 07:12 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:Ignorant morons think it was Wall Street perfidy that caused this mess. It was not. It was government policy that coerced Wall Street into lending money to losers and assholes that Wall Street never would have lent a fucking nickel to on their own.
And there's the disconnect. you think business can do no wrong. you think the high stakes bankers in the derivatives market were not irresponsible in any way. you think the government and wall street are not in on it together.
Quote:
Anthony said:
Shiva, you can say whatever you want in the united states.
well, that's simply not true.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 152,714
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: #occupywallstreet happening now! [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#15806361 - 02/13/12 10:45 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
if you want to play it that way, then yes, Canada does not actually have freedom of expression--but I contend that no country actually does.
if what I say does not put others in harms way or lead to their deaths
then I certainly do have the right in the US to say what ever i wish, I
can criticize the government, religions, individuals and even use hate
speech without repercussions from the government. I have freedom of speech
Quote:
Once again, it is not just the words said, but also the context they are used in, that leads me to draw my conclusions. I agree, merely saying offensive things does not mean one is attempting to strip others of their rights. As far as I am aware, it is not actively used to prosecute a teenager for a racial slur--but rather when it is largely publicized speech with the intent to incite hatred. There is a difference, and I don't stand for the latter. Maybe it's a little hypocritical, but I never claimed to not be one.
so you're all for stripping people of their rights as long as you disagree
with those rights, that's not hypocrisy, that's tyranny. one cannot incite
hatred except among those that already hate but if that hate speech is not
protected then no speech has protection
so let me ask, who's rights are being taken away if Reverend Hatemonger
decides to speak out against gays, gay marriage or anything else, who's
rights are being taken away if they say that islam is evil and they're
hell bent on the destruction of the west and urges everyone to hate as
them equally as he does? no one's rights are stripped by allowing everyone
to speak freely, who's rights are being taken away when that freedom of
speech is taken from the Reverend? it would seem that canadians dont have
equal protections under the laws either.
Quote:
I only claim the Canadians have free speech to the same extent that any country claiming 'free speech' does. Behold, free speech.
I cannot walk into a church and start proclaiming that satan is the only
god, that their own god had forsaken them and they'll burn in hell because
that's private property, neither I nor the government control it. I can
get a permit and do so on public property, I can do so on my own property
without a permit and no one will be able to stop me. I can get a permit to
operate a radio or TV station that advocates hatred and because of this, I
have free speech
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PostiveOutlook
Registered: 05/13/09
Posts: 10,509
Loc: Mars
Last seen: 8 hours, 7 minutes
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Re: #occupywallstreet happening now! [Re: Anthony]
#15806395 - 02/13/12 10:52 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Anthony said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
I only claim the Canadians have free speech to the same extent that any country claiming 'free speech' does. Behold, free speech.
that speech looked absolutely free to me. I don't see what you're trying to get at
Thats the UK not Canadia
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Anthony
M1 A1
Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3,719
Loc: earth
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: #occupywallstreet happening now! [Re: wildchild68]
#15808356 - 02/14/12 01:07 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
wildchild68 said:
Quote:
Anthony said:
Shiva, you can say whatever you want in the united states.
well, that's simply not true.
what can't you say?
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Trippin? Click Me...... Me too!
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shivas.wisdom
בּ וואלה
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 4,929
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 1 month, 15 days
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Re: #occupywallstreet happening now! [Re: Prisoner#1]
#15808537 - 02/14/12 01:52 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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I'll say three things to you pris:
One, I don't believe in the validity of the democratic process--and my conception of freedom and autonomy, and the protection thereof, only goes so far--when an individuals actions are used to restrict another individual(s) freedom and autonomy, it is my free choice to put a stop to such action. I am not the left leaning pinko you may take me for. I am aware of a certain amount of hypocrisy existing in this position, and I wrestle with it occasionally, but the pacifist position of allowing it to happen would be even harder to rationalize, for me. I either employ fascist tactics in dealing with fascism, or I allow my position of non-violence to allow violence to happen.
Two, I don't want to debate the intricacies of Canadian/American freedom of expression laws--it's a pointless road to take. My point merely was that, practically speaking, the common Canadian is as free in their speech as the common American is, or just about any citizen in a so-called 'democratic' country. I don't believe true 'free speech' is actually guaranteed, nor practiced, by any gov't.
Three, Your claim that the United States offers completely unrestricted free speech is incorrect. You already concede that speech which puts other people into harms way or causes their death is unprotected. Wasn't it you who earlier claimed it's either all or nothing when it comes to free speech?
Here are some other exemptions:
Incitement, The Supreme Court has held that "advocacy of the use of force or of law violation" is unprotected when it is "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action" and is "likely to incite or produce such action".
False statements of fact, the Supreme Court decided that there is "no constitutional value in false statements of fact". (False statements are protected in Canada, btw)
Obscenity, speech is unprotected if "the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find that the [subject or work in question], taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest" and "depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, contemporary community standards, sexual conduct defined by the applicable state law" and "the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value".
Child pornography, speech is unprotected if it "visually depicts" children below the age of majority "performing sexual acts or lewdly exhibiting their genitals".
Fighting words and offensive speech, the Supreme Court held that speech is unprotected if it constitutes "fighting words". Fighting words, as defined by the Court, is speech that "tend[s] to incite an immediate breach of the peace" by provoking a fight, so long as it is a "personally abusive epithet which, when addressed to the ordinary citizen, is, as a matter of common knowledge, inherently likely to provoke a violent reaction".
Threats, speech of violence "directed ... to a person or group of persons with the intent of placing the victim in fear of bodily harm or death" are generally unprotected.
Speech owned by others, copyright laws > First Amendment
And finally, it's a felony to threaten the president--meanwhile in Canada, so long as I refrain from mentioning the colour, race, religion, ethnic origin, and sexual orientation of the prime minister in a negative or non-truthful manner, it's fair game to threaten away.
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DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,819
Loc: Street of Dreams
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Re: #occupywallstreet happening now! [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#15808547 - 02/14/12 01:56 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
My point merely was that, practically speaking, the common Canadian is as free in their speech as the common American is, or just about any citizen in a so-called 'democratic' country.
And I think the counter point is, practically speaking, that is not true!
American free speech may not be completely free, but its better and less restrictive than our common wealth neighbors both to the north and abroad.
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shivas.wisdom
בּ וואלה
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 4,929
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 1 month, 15 days
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Re: #occupywallstreet happening now! [Re: DieCommie]
#15808651 - 02/14/12 02:18 PM (3 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
American free speech may not be completely free, but its better and less restrictive than our common wealth neighbors both to the north and abroad.
Did you not read the various exemptions towards free speech in the United States? Why exactly is that any different from just about any countries interpretation of free speech? It seems the US in more restrictive in some aspects, while Canada is more restrictive in others, but on a whole they provide essentially the same thing.
Do you know anyone who has been prosecuted for illegal speech, living in the US? I'm fairly sure you haven't. Well, it's pretty much exactly the same situation here in Canada, I don't know someone who has even been charged, let alone prosecuted, under the hate speech limitation.
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