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 The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
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 Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman  1
#14977322 - 08/25/11 02:41 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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I have spent a lot of time researching Charles Manson, and have watched many interviews.
From everything that I have observed, it seems to me that he is highly self-aware, very creative, honest, intuitive and empathetic. His words usually transcend the banalities of political and ecological ideas; they resemble those of a sage, a witty trickster, or a spiritualist. My opinion of these types of people has been influenced by noticing a similar spark in the dispositions of Joseph Campbell, Carl Jung, Alan Watts, Robert A. Wilson, Terence McKenna, Tim Leary, Ram Dass, etc. You guys know the drill.
Without delving into conspiracy theories, it is still very easy to imagine why this person would be incarcerated and depicted in major media outlets in film and print as a murderer, and an utter psychotic. The way our society shuns these types of "Manson" truth-bringers is indicative of our crooked value system - it's a sad sign of the times.
www.allthewayalive.com is an interesting site worth checking out.
Thoughts?
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 PatrickKn
Do Easy
Registered: 07/10/11
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 Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14977337 - 08/25/11 02:46 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Dude, he convinced people to kill others while dosing them with a shit ton of LSD. He used his 'shamanic' personality to convince people to do stupid shit. I don't think there's much conspiracy to it, he deserves to be locked up for life. It's got nothing to do with his spirituality that he ended up in prison for life, it's the fact that he is not at all compatible with society.
Charles Manson is a wacko. Alan Watts is not. Big difference.
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Edited by PatrickKn (08/25/11 02:48 PM)
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Fronnis
Only in dreams
Registered: 04/11/11
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: PatrickKn]
#14977374 - 08/25/11 02:53 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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I agree his ideas are not that bad, but for what he is known to have committed, I would prefer him dead than to be praised for being anything but a murderer with a high IQ.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale] 2
#14977378 - 08/25/11 02:54 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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I've always considered CM (comparatively to most of humanity) an intelligent, thoughtful, somewhat honest person. His childhood pretty much set in stone the life that would await him in a culture such as ours imo. Had he a different environment he could easily have been hailed a genius.
Of course with all these years of incarceration, especially in childhood he's gone somewhat mad but he knows and acknowledges this.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: PatrickKn]
#14977379 - 08/25/11 02:54 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
PatrickKn said:
Dude, he convinced people to kill others while dosing them with a shit ton of LSD. He used his 'shamanic' personality to convince people to do stupid shit. I don't think there's much conspiracy to it, he deserves to be locked up for life. It's got nothing to do with his spirituality that he ended up in prison for life, it's the fact that he is not at all compatible with society.
Charles Manson is a wacko. Alan Watts is not. Big difference.
Alan Watts is a presentable Englishman who is eloquent and well educated, and thus an easier pill to swallow. His spiritual ideas differ very little, if at all, from Manson's. First though you must begin to get rid of all the misconceptions that you have about him - this being the things you have heard that intentionally distort the messages he brings, messages which expose how corrupt out "modern" way of life is, how inefficient and utterly cruel our court system is to criminals who in many cases have little to no choice in the matters of their own lives, how many of us walk around fully convinced that status is real, that money is anything but agreement over paper, that jobs are degrees are anything more substantial than cultural icons and transient identities.
He dosed people with LSD and brain-washed them, huh?
Do you realize how you are simultaneously criticizing LSD with the same sort of twisted rhetoric that the DEA uses to depict hallucinogens?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Fronnis] 2
#14977380 - 08/25/11 02:55 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Fronnis said:
I agree his ideas are not that bad, but for what he is known to have committed, I would prefer him dead than to be praised for being anything but a murderer with a high IQ.
Who did he murder? No one.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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PatrickKn
Do Easy
Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 3,783
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14977399 - 08/25/11 03:00 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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People CAN be manipulated while on LSD or other hallucinogenic drugs. Easily. I don't give a fuck what the DEA says, this is simple truth. People in susceptible mindsets become more manipulatable.
And who cares if he didn't murder anyone with his bare hands? He convinced a cult to do so, which is just as bad.
Yeah, the justice system is fucked up and he is a victim of it. Doesn't mean he wasn't a fucked up person.
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MokshaMedicine
Mr. Mojo Risin
Registered: 08/17/11
Posts: 177
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale] 2
#14977412 - 08/25/11 03:04 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Quote:
PatrickKn said:
Dude, he convinced people to kill others while dosing them with a shit ton of LSD. He used his 'shamanic' personality to convince people to do stupid shit. I don't think there's much conspiracy to it, he deserves to be locked up for life. It's got nothing to do with his spirituality that he ended up in prison for life, it's the fact that he is not at all compatible with society.
Charles Manson is a wacko. Alan Watts is not. Big difference.
Alan Watts is a presentable Englishman who is eloquent and well educated, and thus an easier pill to swallow. His spiritual ideas differ very little, if at all, from Manson's. First though you must begin to get rid of all the misconceptions that you have about him - this being the things you have heard that intentionally distort the messages he brings, messages which expose how corrupt out "modern" way of life is, how inefficient and utterly cruel our court system is to criminals who in many cases have little to no choice in the matters of their own lives, how many of us walk around fully convinced that status is real, that money is anything but agreement over paper, that jobs are degrees are anything more substantial than cultural icons and transient identities.
He dosed people with LSD and brain-washed them, huh?
Do you realize how you are simultaneously criticizing LSD with the same sort of twisted rhetoric that the DEA uses to depict hallucinogens?
Get off Manson's dick. He is a fucking psychopath. He is right where he belongs.
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 GIFSoup
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: PatrickKn]
#14977431 - 08/25/11 03:09 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
PatrickKn said:
People CAN be manipulated while on LSD or other hallucinogenic drugs. Easily. I don't give a fuck what the DEA says, this is simple truth. People in susceptible mindsets become more manipulatable.
And who cares if he didn't murder anyone with his bare hands? He convinced a cult to do so, which is just as bad.
Yeah, the justice system is fucked up and he is a victim of it. Doesn't mean he wasn't a fucked up person.
How do you know he was a fucked up person?
Our knowledge of his persona has been deliberately fabricated by many authority figures, television programs, journalists, and our own friends and family - who in casual conversation and jokes perpetuate their own misunderstanding and fear. This is one among many messages he alludes to throughout interviews with him: our minds are entirely conditioned by our environment, to the extent that we believe things to be true merely because they are all-pervasive. And this removes us from reality.
Do you think it is merely a coincidence that the government frames his guilt as being directly correlated with hallucinogens, rock and roll music (specifically the Beatles), and living as a hippie with communal and familial values? These are all antithetical to the corporate, violent, and materialist system that attempts to control all of us.
Quote:
Get off Manson's dick. He is a fucking psychopath. He is right where he belongs.
You are being offensive and contribute nothing of intellect to the conversation. Go hang out elsewhere unless you have ideas to share.
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MokshaMedicine
Mr. Mojo Risin
Registered: 08/17/11
Posts: 177
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14977448 - 08/25/11 03:12 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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It just seems you have an unhealthy obsession with a raving lunatic. I won't waste another second on this thread.
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GIFSoup
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: MokshaMedicine] 3
#14977476 - 08/25/11 03:17 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
MokshaMedicine said:
It just seems you have an unhealthy obsession with a raving lunatic. I won't waste another second on this thread.
Debating opinions to any great length displays that I have considered various points, it doesn't suggest I'm obsessed with a particular subject. Sorry if bodies of text scare you. I equally debate music and art with equal enthusiasm.
By the way, "moksha medicine" can come in many forms. If it is powerful enough to fit in plants and chemicals, it can be found in people, places, and ideas - even those we may fear. It just takes a little more patience and a little more effort to spot it.
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14977522 - 08/25/11 03:28 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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This video illustrates his esoteric wisdom and ideas.
It is interesting to me how he has preserved such insight despite being abused by the system he strives to understand and show to people, who are unfortunately so embedded within it they are incapable of seeing what he is describing. To those who are disillusioned it just sounds like a madman speaking about abstraction.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: PatrickKn]
#14977534 - 08/25/11 03:30 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
PatrickKn said:
People CAN be manipulated while on LSD or other hallucinogenic drugs. Easily. I don't give a fuck what the DEA says, this is simple truth. People in susceptible mindsets become more manipulatable.
And who cares if he didn't murder anyone with his bare hands? He convinced a cult to do so, which is just as bad.
Yeah, the justice system is fucked up and he is a victim of it. Doesn't mean he wasn't a fucked up person.
Each human is responsible for their own actions. Or else we are all not responsible.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: MokshaMedicine]
#14977544 - 08/25/11 03:33 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
MokshaMedicine said:
It just seems you have an unhealthy obsession with a raving lunatic. I won't waste another second on this thread.
Why all the heavy emotion here? Why so upset that you cannot even hold up in a simple conversation. What is this triggering for you? There's nothing threatening here unless you believe it.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander] 1
#14977568 - 08/25/11 03:39 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
MokshaMedicine said:
It just seems you have an unhealthy obsession with a raving lunatic. I won't waste another second on this thread.
Why all the heavy emotion here? Why so upset that you cannot even hold up in a simple conversation. What is this triggering for you? There's nothing threatening here unless you believe it.
If I may, the first thing it triggers is an "enemy complex." It is ingrained within us (or perhaps instinctual) to preserve a categorization of certain people as threatening and undesirable. This similarly helps us to divide ourselves into an opposite category of good, deserving, and righteous. Authority figures like parents, religion, and government are usually the origin from which we receive signals on how to classify people as unconditionally 'good' or 'bad'.
Additionally, to consider that we have a very compassionate and wise person behind bars contradicts our notions of control. If the bad people are really the ones squandering our world, what does that say about the future hope for humanity?
It's also a bit of death anxiety, Ice. WE could be the ones behind bars and rotting - for removing ourselves from this elaborate game and exposing the rules for their shabby illusions. Like Manson said though, unless we free our minds we're still in a prison of sorts.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14977611 - 08/25/11 03:46 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Interesting observations. IMO there is likely something to them.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14977654 - 08/25/11 03:53 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Interesting observations. IMO there is likely something to them.
Thanks for commenting, I'm still open to other opinions. But still, his messages are suspiciously beautiful to me. Humans love appearances: if his name was Thich Nhat Hanh and he wore clean clothes in a garden we might be more exuberant about signing off our own inquiring mind to eagerly devour his ideologies. Tongue in cheek here. Fortunately he's a "rogue murderer" so we're forced to think a little bit more and peak behind the curtains.
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graffix87
ישו הוא האדון
Registered: 07/27/11
Posts: 135
Last seen: 6 months, 5 days
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14977682 - 08/25/11 03:57 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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I used to be have a friend (really a friends dad) that is a prison guard. Well I guess he sat in on the trial for Charles Manson. Maybe just one time or multiple I'm not sure. You know how some people just give you that horrible vibe? I guess he totally felt the evil that was in Charles and he has such a blank look. That's just what this guy I knew said, thought I'd share...
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: graffix87] 3
#14977705 - 08/25/11 04:01 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Of course, your friend's dad already had preconceptions about what Manson was. His gut feelings don't really mean anything to me.
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: graffix87]
#14977728 - 08/25/11 04:04 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
graffix87 said:
I used to be have a friend (really a friends dad) that is a prison guard. Well I guess he sat in on the trial for Charles Manson. Maybe just one time or multiple I'm not sure. You know how some people just give you that horrible vibe? I guess he totally felt the evil that was in Charles and he has such a blank look. That's just what this guy I knew said, thought I'd share...
Felt the evil and had a blank look?
I would maybe feel the evil too if everything I knew about a person were elaborate stories of murder and evil. It would be doubly convincing to be in a court room with dozens of people who all feel and think exactly the same. If a magician does a trick in your living room it doesn't "look and feel" as magnificent as it does when he performs it on stage and with an audience.
Even 48 hours in prison and I would look like hell. Think about it.
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14977741 - 08/25/11 04:05 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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More compilations of his esoteric ideas.
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graffix87
ישו הוא האדון
Registered: 07/27/11
Posts: 135
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale] 1
#14977775 - 08/25/11 04:11 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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true, everyone was probably already convinced in there minds what he did
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: graffix87] 2
#14977830 - 08/25/11 04:20 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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I think perhaps the significance is this:
For a long time I also believed Charles Manson was a murderer and crazy.
Then I became intrigued by his demeanor and unique personality - which of course I cast off as being indicative of his "hypnotic" abilities or manipulative charisma. That evil, evil charm that pulled in so many poor, innocent people.
Then I continued to dig deeper and discovered everything about this man is extraordinary, particularly how he is represented to us. Aside from his personal messages, his image is an excellent reflection of our values as a society.
Now, the big take-away message is: if I was wrong about Manson, what else am I still wrong about or currently misunderstand?
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14977851 - 08/25/11 04:24 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: graffix87] 2
#14977980 - 08/25/11 04:47 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
graffix87 said:
I used to be have a friend (really a friends dad) that is a prison guard. Well I guess he sat in on the trial for Charles Manson. Maybe just one time or multiple I'm not sure. You know how some people just give you that horrible vibe? I guess he totally felt the evil that was in Charles and he has such a blank look. That's just what this guy I knew said, thought I'd share...
Yeah prison guards are paragons of love and empathy.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14977992 - 08/25/11 04:49 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
I think perhaps the significance is this:
For a long time I also believed Charles Manson was a murderer and crazy.
Then I became intrigued by his demeanor and unique personality - which of course I cast off as being indicative of his "hypnotic" abilities or manipulative charisma. That evil, evil charm that pulled in so many poor, innocent people.
Then I continued to dig deeper and discovered everything about this man is extraordinary, particularly how he is represented to us. Aside from his personal messages, his image is an excellent reflection of our values as a society.
Now, the big take-away message is: if I was wrong about Manson, what else am I still wrong about or currently misunderstand?
IMO CM is in a extreme position in his life experience. Beyond that he is very much like all other humans.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14978016 - 08/25/11 04:56 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
IMO CM is in a extreme position in his life experience. Beyond that he is very much like all other humans.
In most respects, I would agree.
But the extent to which he is open, communicative, and honest, perhaps surpasses what is average for other people. This may have been influenced by extreme experiences in his life, but he also exemplifies a mythological role of the teacher, the sage, or the wise man. His disposition has to function on an extreme - it wouldn't work as a writer or a lecturer, but his voice is equally important as the others who carry us baskets of truth.
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14978127 - 08/25/11 05:20 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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wouldn't that be something if he were Jesus back to judge the living and the dead. Round 2 as an even slower death...
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14978659 - 08/25/11 07:04 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
IMO CM is in a extreme position in his life experience. Beyond that he is very much like all other humans.
In most respects, I would agree.
But the extent to which he is open, communicative, and honest, perhaps surpasses what is average for other people. This may have been influenced by extreme experiences in his life, but he also exemplifies a mythological role of the teacher, the sage, or the wise man. His disposition has to function on an extreme - it wouldn't work as a writer or a lecturer, but his voice is equally important as the others who carry us baskets of truth.
I think it's due to the experiences he finds himself in. Were he given "proper" acculturation he might have been a rich, bright, investment banker.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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sk8ordude
Stranger
Registered: 07/12/11
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14978813 - 08/25/11 07:37 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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I trust what the media has said about Manson about as much as I trust reefer madness. I wouldn't put it past our governement with their MK ULTRA experiments, to have fabricated the whole thing as a way to curb the counter culture of that time by getting the majority of the population onto their side, and in one way or another it helped to that end.
Not that I trust Manson either.
Edited by sk8ordude (08/25/11 07:40 PM)
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blewmeanie
Sativa Cyborg
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 27,596
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14979116 - 08/25/11 08:35 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
PatrickKn said:
People CAN be manipulated while on LSD or other hallucinogenic drugs. Easily. I don't give a fuck what the DEA says, this is simple truth. People in susceptible mindsets become more manipulatable.
And who cares if he didn't murder anyone with his bare hands? He convinced a cult to do so, which is just as bad.
Yeah, the justice system is fucked up and he is a victim of it. Doesn't mean he wasn't a fucked up person.
Each human is responsible for their own actions. Or else we are all not responsible.
And yet billions of dollars have been wagered by marketing firms on the belief that people can be manipulated to act in opposition to their own interests.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: blewmeanie]
#14979162 - 08/25/11 08:44 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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And who exactly is doing this "acting"?
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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blewmeanie
Sativa Cyborg
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 27,596
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14979203 - 08/25/11 08:50 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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A number of people from the "manson family" if the official narrative, and their own confessions are to be believed.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: blewmeanie]
#14979225 - 08/25/11 08:54 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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So everyone is acting on their own behalf even if it ends up being against their ultimate interests.  Just being unskillful in obtaining their personal goals does not mean they are not responsible. Or like I said then no one is responsible.
CM was responsible for his actions, not theirs.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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blewmeanie
Sativa Cyborg
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 27,596
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14979265 - 08/25/11 09:01 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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I don't know if most people are responsible for much of anything. To me most people seem diffused with the awareness of a slinky. I do love a good slinky though.
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blewmeanie
Sativa Cyborg
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 27,596
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: blewmeanie]
#14979282 - 08/25/11 09:04 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: blewmeanie]
#14979287 - 08/25/11 09:05 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
blewmeanie said:
I don't know if most people are responsible for much of anything. To me most people seem diffused with the awareness of a slinky. I do love a good slinky though.
Are you not responsible for your actions? If not you then who?
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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blewmeanie
Sativa Cyborg
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 27,596
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14979309 - 08/25/11 09:08 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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I think taking responsibly for everything in your life is a healthy and helpful perspective to adopt, but I don't know if there's any objective truth to it. We all have our buttons to be pushed.  beep boop beep
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: blewmeanie]
#14979409 - 08/25/11 09:24 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Of course we can't know if there is objective truth to any thing we discuss here. Hasn't stopped us yet.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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blewmeanie
Sativa Cyborg
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 27,596
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14979468 - 08/25/11 09:34 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Nor shall it.
Anyway, I'm a little high an probably getting sidetracked. My point was, all our actions have consequences, and in that regard, the efficacy of words is without question.
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: blewmeanie] 1
#14980402 - 08/26/11 02:33 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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I read so much and watched so many videos that I had a dream with Manson. He was giving an interview to a large classroom that was full of people I knew: friends, family, old classmates, etc. Everyone was asking him about things related to murder and guilt, whereas I was asking him what book should I read next, and how he felt about ESP and telepathy. He was very short in my dream and very gentle. Whenever my grandmother came up to him to ask something (don't remember what, but it was about his "evilness"), the way he responded reminded me a guru-interaction. He was at the front of the room and all the confused, angry, hurtful, and sad disciples were gathered around him. They sensed they should be there to experience the presence of a powerful person, that there was something to gain. But the intrigue was disguised as political interest in his court case.
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14980428 - 08/26/11 02:48 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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The swastika has been used in spiritual connotations by multiple cultures and religions throughout history: Greco-Roman, Germanic, Celtic, Buddhist, Baltic, Slavic, Sami, and even in Native American traditions. Also found in Iceland, Ireland, Finland, India, Korea, Taiwan, etc. It is included in the symbology of the The Theosophical Society and dozens of other belief systems.
But something this universal and philosophical must certainly be evil?
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale] 2
#14980558 - 08/26/11 04:03 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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I think he is unnecessarily demonized by people who don't actually know much about him...he was a very wise individual IMO, and doesn't get the credit he deserves.
"Look down at me and you see a fool; look up at me and you see a god; look straight at me and you see yourself."
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Fronnis
Only in dreams
Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 851
Last seen: 7 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Poid] 1
#14980676 - 08/26/11 05:25 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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He's eitherly overly praised or utterly demonized, and there are problems from either side of people with these beliefs, although a lot of what actually happened is not fully understood.
It has been mentioned here that everyone are responible for theirown actions, but for the people who are mentally weak, isn't a controlling person taken advantage "wrong" anyway?
If Charles Manson hadn't influenced his "family" to do the things they had done, would the crimes have been comitted?
If Charles Manson hadn't directed his "family" to murder, or Charles having never met these people before, this would not have happened. Also, you say that only the people that committed the crime were murderers, but how do you know what consequences may have been put down by Charles if they had not listened to him?
In a different scenario where someone would direct men to take a plane and crash into the twin towers, would you then believe that the person who directed them not guilty at all, and if his ideologies were interesting enough, to upheld him as some sort of genius? Also, Nazi germany, I have a view of Nazi's that I'd like to keep to myself, but the influence of Hitler over a whole nation, would you only blame the public and not the party and their control?
If it were someone close to me that had been killed by Charles Manson family, and I knew that the murderers were mentally unstableand were instructed by Charles Manson, I would want the murderers put into a mental institute for being a danger to society, and I would like to kill Manson myself, slowly.
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lolwut
Stranger
Registered: 08/14/10
Posts: 582
Last seen: 8 hours, 57 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Fronnis]
#14980680 - 08/26/11 05:28 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Charles Manson was just another tripped out cult leader, without the political smarts of Scientology. Not saying he didn't have brains but anyone who goes around killing people, or inciting others to kill people, isn't very "aware" or compassionate in my opinion.
Edited by lolwut (08/26/11 05:30 AM)
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 3,635
Last seen: 7 hours, 10 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Fronnis]
#14980693 - 08/26/11 05:33 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Fronnis said:some sort of genius?
Can a murderer not be a genius?
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 25,441
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 7 hours, 47 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale] 2
#14980698 - 08/26/11 05:38 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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I am ashamed to admit this, but I'm a Charles Manson expert. And I can tell you that he is a complete piece of shit.
When I was younger, from 16 to 21, I was obsessed with him. I realized later that I idolized him because he was saying things that I knew in my soul, but had never heard anyone say. He talks a lot about everyone and everything being one. But once I learned that there were many, many other, non-mass murdering people who thought the same thing, I realized that he sucks. I believe that he believes that we're all one. I believe that he is concerned with the environment. I believe that he's right about a lot of things. But the simple fact of the matter is that he is a murderer and doesn't really care about anyone but himself.
I used to be the guy who defended him by saying that he never killed anyone, etc. But he did. Even if you don't believe that he convinced those kids to kill those people, which he did, the fact of the matter is that he drove those kids to the Labianca house where Manson himself tied up the Labiancas and then left. That makes him an accessory to murder right there. Then, he was right along with Steve Grogan, Tex Watson and Bruce Davis when he was ordering them to murder Shorty Shea. Once again he's an accessory to murder at least. And besides that, he used to beat the girls and do all sorts of nasty things. And he's a racist.
He's an interesting character, but is NOT someone to idolize.
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Mp3 of the month: The Shy Guys - Black Lightning Light
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 25,441
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 7 hours, 47 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale] 1
#14980702 - 08/26/11 05:41 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
The swastika has been used in spiritual connotations by multiple cultures and religions throughout history: Greco-Roman, Germanic, Celtic, Buddhist, Baltic, Slavic, Sami, and even in Native American traditions. Also found in Iceland, Ireland, Finland, India, Korea, Taiwan, etc. It is included in the symbology of the The Theosophical Society and dozens of other belief systems.
But something this universal and philosophical must certainly be evil?
But that's not why Manson put it on his forehead. I've seen a billion Manson interviews. He put it on there because he supports Hitler, the holocaust and the Neo Nazi movement! He's a complete racist.
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Mp3 of the month: The Shy Guys - Black Lightning Light
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Fronnis
Only in dreams
Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 851
Last seen: 7 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Sleepwalker]
#14980716 - 08/26/11 05:48 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Sleepwalker said:
Quote:
Fronnis said:some sort of genius?
Can a murderer not be a genius?
Sorry. The point I was trying to make was to give someone praise for being smart, and then due to admiration, feel sympathetic for the person or upheld as innocent. As (just) a genius.
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Edited by Fronnis (08/26/11 05:50 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Fronnis]
#14980725 - 08/26/11 05:51 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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If you want to kill someone "slowly" then your internal landscape is also one of hate, murder, revenge.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14980731 - 08/26/11 05:53 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Fronnis said:
He's eitherly overly praised or utterly demonized, and there are problems from either side of people with these beliefs, although a lot of what actually happened is not fully understood.
It has been mentioned here that everyone are responible for theirown actions, but for the people who are mentally weak, isn't a controlling person taken advantage "wrong" anyway?
If Charles Manson hadn't influenced his "family" to do the things they had done, would the crimes have been comitted?
If Charles Manson hadn't directed his "family" to murder, or Charles having never met these people before, this would not have happened. Also, you say that only the people that committed the crime were murderers, but how do you know what consequences may have been put down by Charles if they had not listened to him?
In a different scenario where someone would direct men to take a plane and crash into the twin towers, would you then believe that the person who directed them not guilty at all, and if his ideologies were interesting enough, to upheld him as some sort of genius? Also, Nazi germany, I have a view of Nazi's that I'd like to keep to myself, but the influence of Hitler over a whole nation, would you only blame the public and not the party and their control?
If it were someone close to me that had been killed by Charles Manson family, and I knew that the murderers were mentally unstableand were instructed by Charles Manson, I would want the murderers put into a mental institute for being a danger to society, and I would like to kill Manson myself, slowly.
Let me see if I understand you correctly:
Terence McKenna, a highly charismatic and charming intellectual, gradually turned into a psychotic and influential leader of a group of weak-minded young people. He was schizophrenic and believed one could communicate to spirits and learn about the future by taking drugs. He was manipulative in his favorable presentation of highly lethal and addicting chemicals, especially hallucinogens. Some of the poor, innocent people that McKenna connived into taking the drugs ended up trying to commit suicide due to depression. Some even tried to kill their relatives or cut their ballsacks off after smoking salvia. Still others resorted to quitting their jobs and joining anti-government protests.
You see how this works.
Ironically, so many accuse Manson of manipulation, which in turn is a gross manipulation of the true situation. He hung around rough individuals, some of whom were criminals. He had friends, and I'm sure he had a few enemies. But as far as I can tell he never had a cult or a "family."
Quote:
lolwut said:
Charles Manson was just another tripped out cult leader, without the political smarts of Scientology. Not saying he didn't have brains but anyone who goes around killing people, or inciting others to kill people, isn't very "aware" or compassionate in my opinion.
Again, there's no proof he killed anyone or even encouraged it. There is only hearsay, which composes our entire cultural lens and often deflects it from truth.
Quote:
Learyfan said:
Quote:
The Whale said:
The swastika has been used in spiritual connotations by multiple cultures and religions throughout history: Greco-Roman, Germanic, Celtic, Buddhist, Baltic, Slavic, Sami, and even in Native American traditions. Also found in Iceland, Ireland, Finland, India, Korea, Taiwan, etc. It is included in the symbology of the The Theosophical Society and dozens of other belief systems.
But something this universal and philosophical must certainly be evil?
But that's not why Manson put it on his forehead. I've seen a billion Manson interviews. He put it on there because he supports Hitler, the holocaust and the Neo Nazi movement! He's a complete racist.
No, society is a complete racist, hence our hatred for him for having a few silly lines on his forehead. If we had a turban wrapped around his head instead of ink, we would have to respect him or else be accused of prejudice.
Let's see these interviews! When does he vocally support Hitler, the holocaust, or Neo Nazis?
Manson was a "selfish person who only cared about himself" and yet supported counter-cultural movements? That's illogical.
Timothy Leary also convinced people to take brain-damaging ACID, go out of their heads, and jump out of Hotel windows. 
Quote:
Icelander said:
If you want to kill someone "slowly" then your internal landscape is also one of hate, murder, revenge.
Manson has been tortured behind bars for years, and yet STILL he speaks about love and freedom.
Maybe he's trying to brainwash the guards, brainwash the reporters, and especially the domestic audience! I'm sure with a bit of manipulation he can wager some fried chicken for lunch instead of cold meatloaf.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Learyfan]
#14980733 - 08/26/11 05:53 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Learyfan said:
Quote:
The Whale said:
The swastika has been used in spiritual connotations by multiple cultures and religions throughout history: Greco-Roman, Germanic, Celtic, Buddhist, Baltic, Slavic, Sami, and even in Native American traditions. Also found in Iceland, Ireland, Finland, India, Korea, Taiwan, etc. It is included in the symbology of the The Theosophical Society and dozens of other belief systems.
But something this universal and philosophical must certainly be evil?
But that's not why Manson put it on his forehead. I've seen a billion Manson interviews. He put it on there because he supports Hitler, the holocaust and the Neo Nazi movement! He's a complete racist.
How does that make him a complete racist? If I hate all white people does that make me a complete racist? In many threads here on racism there is a general agreement that everyone is a little racist.
He seems, like most humans, slightly mad to me, he also has great insight into the human condition. Considering the circumstances of his life I wouldn't expect him to be much different. He's personally responsible for all his actions. If they lead him to prison that's bad for him I guess. The only times we are not responsible for ourselves imo is when we are children and our brains and rational/ emotional selves are not developed. Most all the things that cause humans to act in unskillful/unhealthy ways are due to childhood conditioning unfortunately. Hard to overcome in adulthood but we still bear responsibility for our actions. Are we "guilty" is another question altogether imo.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
Edited by Icelander (08/26/11 06:04 AM)
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14980746 - 08/26/11 05:59 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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He's not racist from what I can tell.
It was a powerful symbol and he positioned it between his eyes for effect.
Initially [or so I have read] it was just an "X" which marked himself as removed from normal society.
He uses it much like a costume or a mask.
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Fronnis
Only in dreams
Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 851
Last seen: 7 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14980749 - 08/26/11 06:02 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
If you want to kill someone "slowly" then your internal landscape is also one of hate, murder, revenge.
Not necessarily. I would never do anything to hurt anyone without them starting on me and I hate violence, but I believe if anyone does something that damages me, I have the right to get myself back to the extent that pleases me. I would sympathize for the "family", but I would kill Manson for the responsibility of killing someone in my family. Would you just forgive?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14980760 - 08/26/11 06:07 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
He's not racist from what I can tell.
It was a powerful symbol and he positioned it between his eyes for effect.
Initially [or so I have read] it was just an "X" which marked himself as removed from normal society.
He uses it much like a costume or a mask.
It may have something to do with the safety in prison of belong to a gang. White neo nazi's used that symbol but I really don't know what his intent was.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Fronnis]
#14980764 - 08/26/11 06:09 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Fronnis said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
If you want to kill someone "slowly" then your internal landscape is also one of hate, murder, revenge.
Not necessarily. I would never do anything to hurt anyone without them starting on me and I hate violence, but I believe if anyone does something that damages me, I have the right to get myself back to the extent that pleases me. I would sympathize for the "family", but I would kill Manson for the responsibility of killing someone in my family. Would you just forgive?
No I would likely kill but quickly and painlessly as the mafia does with most enemies. The idea being to remove them rather that prove to yourself that you are just as much a crazed, hate filled animal as your enemy was.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale] 2
#14980799 - 08/26/11 06:27 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Timothy Leary also convinced people to take brain-damaging ACID...
Acid is not known to cause brain damage.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Poid] 2
#14980806 - 08/26/11 06:29 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
The Whale said:
Timothy Leary also convinced people to take brain-damaging ACID...
Acid is not known to cause brain damage.
No shit?
I'll be damned.
All these years...
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Fronnis
Only in dreams
Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 851
Last seen: 7 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14980816 - 08/26/11 06:39 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Quote:
Fronnis said:
He's eitherly overly praised or utterly demonized, and there are problems from either side of people with these beliefs, although a lot of what actually happened is not fully understood.
It has been mentioned here that everyone are responible for theirown actions, but for the people who are mentally weak, isn't a controlling person taken advantage "wrong" anyway?
If Charles Manson hadn't influenced his "family" to do the things they had done, would the crimes have been comitted?
If Charles Manson hadn't directed his "family" to murder, or Charles having never met these people before, this would not have happened. Also, you say that only the people that committed the crime were murderers, but how do you know what consequences may have been put down by Charles if they had not listened to him?
In a different scenario where someone would direct men to take a plane and crash into the twin towers, would you then believe that the person who directed them not guilty at all, and if his ideologies were interesting enough, to upheld him as some sort of genius? Also, Nazi germany, I have a view of Nazi's that I'd like to keep to myself, but the influence of Hitler over a whole nation, would you only blame the public and not the party and their control?
If it were someone close to me that had been killed by Charles Manson family, and I knew that the murderers were mentally unstableand were instructed by Charles Manson, I would want the murderers put into a mental institute for being a danger to society, and I would like to kill Manson myself, slowly.
Let me see if I understand you correctly:
Terence McKenna, a highly charismatic and charming intellectual, gradually turned into a psychotic and influential leader of a group of weak-minded young people. He was schizophrenic and believed one could communicate to spirits and learn about the future by taking drugs. He was manipulative in his favorable presentation of highly lethal and addicting chemicals, especially hallucinogens. Some of the poor, innocent people that McKenna connived into taking the drugs ended up trying to commit suicide due to depression. Some even tried to kill their relatives or cut their ballsacks off after smoking salvia. Still others resorted to quitting their jobs and joining anti-government protests.
You see how this works.
Ironically, so many accuse Manson of manipulation, which in turn is a gross manipulation of the true situation. He hung around rough individuals, some of whom were criminals. He had friends, and I'm sure he had a few enemies. But as far as I can tell he never had a cult or a "family."
I don't understand your point about McKenna. Of course these kids took these drugs when they could have known better, but when had McKenna actually got personally involved with those people taking drugs rather than just inform?
And do you know the "true situation", were you amongst him and his "friends" to confidently say what you have stated? If you look at all the events and stay away from conspiracy theorist's "what-if" scenarios, a lot more can be told of having a "family" cult. Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Fronnis said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
If you want to kill someone "slowly" then your internal landscape is also one of hate, murder, revenge.
Not necessarily. I would never do anything to hurt anyone without them starting on me and I hate violence, but I believe if anyone does something that damages me, I have the right to get myself back to the extent that pleases me. I would sympathize for the "family", but I would kill Manson for the responsibility of killing someone in my family. Would you just forgive?
No I would likely kill but quickly and painlessly as the mafia does with most enemies. The idea being to remove them rather that prove to yourself that you are just as much a crazed, hate filled animal as your enemy was.
No, I think killing them quickly is too much of an easy way out. I think a slow death, or even torture, would bring the "enemy" what had coming to them, a revenge that matches the damages they caused. That is my personal value, if someone was responsible for conflicting hurt and death to someone else, show them that by starting things, they can bite back at you to all extremities. I don't understand what you have against my terms of revenge, exerting damage that meets or goes over the criteria of damage someone has committed over me. This is getting off topic though. Our values are different and due to that that, you seem to be making personal judgments about me.
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Fronnis]
#14980831 - 08/26/11 06:44 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
I don't understand your point about McKenna. Of course these kids took these drugs when they could have known better, but when had McKenna actually got personally involved with those people taking drugs rather than just inform?
And do you know the "true situation", were you amongst him and his "friends" to confidently say what you have stated? If you look at all the events and stay away from conspiracy theorist's "what-if" scenarios, a lot more can be told of having a "family" cult.
The McKenna scenario is just a way to imagine how slander and framing can completely alter public perception. It's fear-mongering, they do the same thing with state "terrorists."
I was not there. I don't know Manson. But from every video interview I've seen, he just seems highly eccentric.
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14980836 - 08/26/11 06:48 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
No, I think killing them quickly is too much of an easy way out. I think a slow death, or even torture, would bring the "enemy" what had coming to them, a revenge that matches the damages they caused.
Every spiritualist I've ever read or listened to, living or historical, has spoken out against an "eye for an eye" mentality.
To debate this here is a different topic, but to suggest torturing someone in the same thread that you are criticizing a suspected murderer is ironic.
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Fronnis
Only in dreams
Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 851
Last seen: 7 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale] 1
#14980860 - 08/26/11 07:06 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Quote:
No, I think killing them quickly is too much of an easy way out. I think a slow death, or even torture, would bring the "enemy" what had coming to them, a revenge that matches the damages they caused.
Every spiritualist I've ever read or listened to, living or historical, has spoken out against an "eye for an eye" mentality.
To debate this here is a different topic, but to suggest torturing someone in the same thread that you are criticizing a suspected murderer is ironic.
I admire and respect spiritualist views mysticism, but neither are big influences in my life. My philosophical view in life includes revenge, but to never start any trouble or violence in the first place. If I had damaged someone greatly, I'd expect the same punishment to be put on myself.
I've expressed my opinion here about Charles Manson, although I find his philosophy and thoughts interesting, I cannot ever upheld him more than a man with a violent past (he is known to have taken advantage of people, stealing and to have threatened people), alleged (and likely) cult leader and having some good ideas, as well as his eccentricity making him admirable.
I'm not a spiritualist, so I probably don't belong here.
Thank you all for this discussion.
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Edited by Fronnis (08/26/11 07:07 AM)
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 3,635
Last seen: 7 hours, 10 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Fronnis]
#14980902 - 08/26/11 07:24 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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He's already in jail. What good does torture do except to sooth your head?
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Fronnis
Only in dreams
Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 851
Last seen: 7 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Sleepwalker]
#14980923 - 08/26/11 07:32 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Sleepwalker said:
He's already in jail. What good does torture do except to sooth your head?
I never said I wanted him tortured.
I really don't belong on this thread and I apologize, I will stop posting and replying.
Thanks all and bye  .
Edited by Fronnis (08/26/11 07:34 AM)
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Toltecatl
Psychonaut
Registered: 07/29/10
Posts: 635
Loc: Tardis
Last seen: 55 minutes, 5 seconds
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale] 1
#14980930 - 08/26/11 07:35 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Quote:
PatrickKn said:
Dude, he convinced people to kill others while dosing them with a shit ton of LSD. He used his 'shamanic' personality to convince people to do stupid shit. I don't think there's much conspiracy to it, he deserves to be locked up for life. It's got nothing to do with his spirituality that he ended up in prison for life, it's the fact that he is not at all compatible with society.
Charles Manson is a wacko. Alan Watts is not. Big difference.
Alan Watts is a presentable Englishman who is eloquent and well educated, and thus an easier pill to swallow. His spiritual ideas differ very little, if at all, from Manson's. First though you must begin to get rid of all the misconceptions that you have about him - this being the things you have heard that intentionally distort the messages he brings, messages which expose how corrupt out "modern" way of life is, how inefficient and utterly cruel our court system is to criminals who in many cases have little to no choice in the matters of their own lives, how many of us walk around fully convinced that status is real, that money is anything but agreement over paper, that jobs are degrees are anything more substantial than cultural icons and transient identities.
He dosed people with LSD and brain-washed them, huh?
Do you realize how you are simultaneously criticizing LSD with the same sort of twisted rhetoric that the DEA uses to depict hallucinogens?
Wow. Its amazing how very gullibale you are. He convinced women to murder Sharon Tate, a woman who was pregnant at the time of her death. They wrote messages in her blood all over the walls. And you support this guy? They are many, many other people with the same political/socialogical ideals that aren't baby killers. You would have made a good sex slave/asassin for Manson, which is essentially what those women were to him. Conspircay? I think you may be a tad paranoid, dude.
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Toltecatl
Psychonaut
Registered: 07/29/10
Posts: 635
Loc: Tardis
Last seen: 55 minutes, 5 seconds
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale] 1
#14980946 - 08/26/11 07:44 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Quote:
PatrickKn said:
People CAN be manipulated while on LSD or other hallucinogenic drugs. Easily. I don't give a fuck what the DEA says, this is simple truth. People in susceptible mindsets become more manipulatable.
And who cares if he didn't murder anyone with his bare hands? He convinced a cult to do so, which is just as bad.
Yeah, the justice system is fucked up and he is a victim of it. Doesn't mean he wasn't a fucked up person.
How do you know he was a fucked up person?
Our knowledge of his persona has been deliberately fabricated by many authority figures, television programs, journalists, and our own friends and family - who in casual conversation and jokes perpetuate their own misunderstanding and fear. This is one among many messages he alludes to throughout interviews with him: our minds are entirely conditioned by our environment, to the extent that we believe things to be true merely because they are all-pervasive. And this removes us from reality.
Do you think it is merely a coincidence that the government frames his guilt as being directly correlated with hallucinogens, rock and roll music (specifically the Beatles), and living as a hippie with communal and familial values? These are all antithetical to the corporate, violent, and materialist system that attempts to control all of us.
Quote:
Get off Manson's dick. He is a fucking psychopath. He is right where he belongs.
You are being offensive and contribute nothing of intellect to the conversation. Go hang out elsewhere unless you have ideas to share.
Two birds with one stone, okay? Here is a psychopath who, through the use of LSD, brainwashed women into being sex slaves and murders. He was "hippie" (not really) just because he lived in a commune in the desert? He lived there so he could keep these women away from society and the real world, enabling him to permanently alter their view of reality. He told them he was God and they were to do his bidding. At the time, the US Govt was pushing back against the counterculture/drug movement, so when this atrocity occurred they naturally tied them together. Was this wrong or misleading? You bet. That doesn't change what this man did. You are very deluded, bro. Yes the Govt has only their interests and the interests of their friends in mind, but they did not frame Manson. Lay off the drugs for a bit and come back to reality, dude.
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Toltecatl]
#14981006 - 08/26/11 08:06 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Fronnis said:
Quote:
Sleepwalker said:
He's already in jail. What good does torture do except to sooth your head?
I never said I wanted him tortured.
I really don't belong on this thread and I apologize, I will stop posting and replying.
Thanks all and bye .
You're welcome wherever. We're just exchanging ideas here. If sometimes we find that our ideas or values are incongruous with others, it just means its a good opportunity to understand more about them. Perhaps explaining them to others enables us to be explain it to our own mind, which sometimes forgets why we even believe something out of habit.
Quote:
Toltecatl said:
Wow. Its amazing how very gullibale you are. He convinced women to murder Sharon Tate, a woman who was pregnant at the time of her death. They wrote messages in her blood all over the walls. And you support this guy? They are many, many other people with the same political/socialogical ideals that aren't baby killers. You would have made a good sex slave/asassin for Manson, which is essentially what those women were to him. Conspircay? I think you may be a tad paranoid, dude.
I've read the details of the case, no need to repeat. I've already addressed the supposed claim he is a murderer throughout this thread. I'm more interested in hearing about his role and position in society, especially as a representative of the Western subversion of eccentricity (and abnormal sociability) as criminal. His messages resemble sainthood and this is highly threatening to the establishment and most people's worldviews.
Which is more conspiratorial: one man in the desert who enjoys roughing it and living in independence, or an entire collection of state officials - with limitless power of conviction - who placed the accused murderers through a long and serious judicial process. Cults do exist. Manipulative "leader type" people have also exploited weaker people (this is how the entire military works). But more serious than this reality is how gravely our society demands evil and demands an enemy with a face.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Fronnis]
#14981080 - 08/26/11 08:30 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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You can have whatever terms of revenge suit your emotional need. They just are not in line with my ethics and needs these days.
Most people at sometime in life torment or torture another person animal or insect physically or emotionally. So most people "deserve" the slow torturing death you want to inflict on others. If you are willing to be tortured for your own "sins" then that would be fair enough but I doubt it.
If you got your instant karma just deserts for everything you have done you wouldn't enjoy life much.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14981256 - 08/26/11 09:18 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
If you got your instant karma just deserts for everything you have done you wouldn't enjoy life much.
This is, I think, the meaning behind the quote "eye for an eye makes everyone blind." All of our qualms are entwined as our behavior is wholly interdependent with the world around us. If we point a finger at one person, where do we stop pointing fingers?
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Olympus Mons
esprit de l'univers
Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 5,747
Loc: ∞
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14981373 - 08/26/11 09:53 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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nice thread, and i dont mean to stray off topic for long but ive never understood the everybody is a little racist theory, i think it's something racists say to justify illogical thinking. i can say for a fact that i am 100% not racist. i do make judgments but it has nothing to do with race.
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I close my eyes and seize it
I clench my fists and beat it
I light my torch and burn it
I am the beast I worship....
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Olympus Mons]
#14981403 - 08/26/11 10:00 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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That would be hard to prove. That you never have a racist thought, even a momentary tiny one.
I'm certainly not about to take your word for it. 100% or not.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Olympus Mons
esprit de l'univers
Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 5,747
Loc: ∞
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14981433 - 08/26/11 10:06 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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you wouldnt take my word on my own actions? who's would you take? and no ive never had a racist thought or done anything remotely racist, likely because im a minority. I can see how one would think that being a minority would have the opposite effect, but in my case it gives me an appreciation for diversity. plus im just not a hateful person.
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I close my eyes and seize it
I clench my fists and beat it
I light my torch and burn it
I am the beast I worship....
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tripleclick
cloud bursting
Registered: 05/06/07
Posts: 3,316
Loc: jaguar house 
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14981478 - 08/26/11 10:14 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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you see yourself as a "minority"
I think you might be a bit racist
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Olympus Mons
esprit de l'univers
Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 5,747
Loc: ∞
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: tripleclick]
#14981596 - 08/26/11 10:40 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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no im just aware facts. it's ok to admit that the majority of the population doesnt look like you, it's not belittling. also take into account that we live in very different places. id be a minority in your country as well.
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I close my eyes and seize it
I clench my fists and beat it
I light my torch and burn it
I am the beast I worship....
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Olympus Mons]
#14981631 - 08/26/11 10:45 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Olympus Mons said:
you wouldnt take my word on my own actions? who's would you take? and no ive never had a racist thought or done anything remotely racist, likely because im a minority. I can see how one would think that being a minority would have the opposite effect, but in my case it gives me an appreciation for diversity. plus im just not a hateful person.
Pics or it didn't happen.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Olympus Mons
esprit de l'univers
Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 5,747
Loc: ∞
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14981641 - 08/26/11 10:46 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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haha post pictures of me not being racist? it would probably look pretty racist.
anyway i dont want to derail this awesome thread.
i think charles manson is awesome and it's a shame what our society has done to him.
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I close my eyes and seize it
I clench my fists and beat it
I light my torch and burn it
I am the beast I worship....
Edited by Olympus Mons (08/26/11 10:47 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Toltecatl]
#14981680 - 08/26/11 10:54 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Wow. Its amazing how very gullibale you are. He convinced women to murder Sharon Tate,
He did? How do you know that? I think they convinced themselves. If he had the power to convince others against their will he could have ruled the world.
No one can make you do anything against your will, not anyone, including yourself. If that is not true then none are responsible.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
Edited by Icelander (08/26/11 10:54 AM)
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Olympus Mons
esprit de l'univers
Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 5,747
Loc: ∞
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14981697 - 08/26/11 10:58 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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that's the thing ive never understood, he didnt kill anyone so what laws did he break?
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I close my eyes and seize it
I clench my fists and beat it
I light my torch and burn it
I am the beast I worship....
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Olympus Mons] 2
#14981710 - 08/26/11 11:01 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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He broke the unwritten but set in stone law that say's you cannot loudly condemn in word and deed the culture you live in.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14981839 - 08/26/11 11:35 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
He broke the unwritten but set in stone law that say's you cannot loudly condemn in word and deed the culture you live in.
Bingo. Succinctly put. You make all of my verbosity look feeble.
The guy also has a suspiciously beautiful "spark" in his eyes. Serial killers, weirdos, and murders may look creepy or strange, but they don't have a twinkle and a genuinely patient smile.
Uncle Charlie is welcome for Christmas dinner any time! We can even read the bible together as a family while he laughs at how distorted it has become. We'll play Frank Sinatra really loud though, so the nosy neighbors don't hear our murderous conversations.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14981936 - 08/26/11 11:58 AM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Well while you're reading the bible you can find where it says ", A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house."
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14982092 - 08/26/11 12:47 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Well while you're reading the bible you can find where it says ", A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house."
What? You mean a prophet may be some dirty bum who is misunderstood?
Shit, man. I see the beard. But where are the robes, the pulpit, the college degrees, the magic super powers? All I hear is him talking about love and kindness. Surely it's more complicated?
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blewmeanie
Sativa Cyborg
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 27,596
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14982105 - 08/26/11 12:52 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Well while you're reading the bible you can find where it says ", A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house."
What? You mean a prophet may be some dirty bum who is misunderstood?
Shit, man. I see the beard. But where are the robes, the pulpit, the college degrees, the magic super powers? All I hear is him talking about love and kindness. Surely it's more complicated?
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: blewmeanie]
#14982167 - 08/26/11 01:12 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Sly Stone
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 595
Loc: Never get out of the boat
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander] 1
#14982317 - 08/26/11 01:47 PM (8 months, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Wow. Its amazing how very gullibale you are. He convinced women to murder Sharon Tate,
He did? How do you know that? I think they convinced themselves. If he had the power to convince others against their will he could have ruled the world.
No one can make you do anything against your will, not anyone, including yourself. If that is not true then none are responsible.
If I hired someone to kill people, would I have committed a crime?
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Sly Stone]
#14982334 - 08/26/11 01:50 PM (8 months, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
Sly Stone said:
If I hired someone to kill people, would I have committed a crime?
Rhetorical questions are nearly as tasteless as incarcerating saints.
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14982358 - 08/26/11 01:55 PM (8 months, 29 days ago) |
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Who says this mother fucker isn't enlightened? He's dancing in prison.
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Sly Stone
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 595
Loc: Never get out of the boat
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14982362 - 08/26/11 01:56 PM (8 months, 29 days ago) |
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Truth hurts.
Manson was a psychopath that orchestrated mass murders. He did this because he thought the song Helter Skelter prophesied a race war. He tried to start the race war by killing rich white people hoping the murders would be blamed on black people. This would start create his race war.
If you see that as saintly, I feel sorry for you.
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Sly Stone]
#14982399 - 08/26/11 02:00 PM (8 months, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
Sly Stone said:
Truth hurts.
Dude, no offense but you didn't contribute anything new to the conversation.
Quote:
Manson was a psychopath that orchestrated mass murders. He did this because he thought the song Helter Skelter prophesied a race war. He tried to start the race war by killing rich white people hoping the murders would be blamed on black people. This would start create his race war.
If you see that as saintly, I feel sorry for you.
He wanted to start a race war?
Haha, ok. I could've read that on Wikipedia.
Mind sharing some direct admission from Manson? This, again, is just hearsay.
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Sly Stone
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 595
Loc: Never get out of the boat
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14982439 - 08/26/11 02:06 PM (8 months, 29 days ago) |
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Black is white, up is down.
See I'm a shaman prophet, too.
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Sly Stone]
#14982475 - 08/26/11 02:12 PM (8 months, 29 days ago) |
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Go live on the streets for awhile and spend several decades in prison cells. If you're still laughing and dancing, then we'll talk.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Sly Stone]
#14982755 - 08/26/11 03:11 PM (8 months, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
Sly Stone said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Wow. Its amazing how very gullibale you are. He convinced women to murder Sharon Tate,
He did? How do you know that? I think they convinced themselves. If he had the power to convince others against their will he could have ruled the world.
No one can make you do anything against your will, not anyone, including yourself. If that is not true then none are responsible.
If I hired someone to kill people, would I have committed a crime?
By social laws yes. So?
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Sly Stone]
#14982763 - 08/26/11 03:13 PM (8 months, 29 days ago) |
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He tried to start the race war by killing rich white people
Who did he kill? Hint: nobody.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Sly Stone
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 595
Loc: Never get out of the boat
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander] 1
#14982926 - 08/26/11 03:36 PM (8 months, 29 days ago) |
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Okay, then let's set him free and he can live at your house.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Sly Stone]
#14982940 - 08/26/11 03:38 PM (8 months, 29 days ago) |
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Now why would I let him live at my house when I won't let anyone else live there? You really are getting silly dude.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14983476 - 08/26/11 05:09 PM (8 months, 29 days ago) |
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I mean give me a break, that dude was evil! He's got a swastika tatooed on his forehead...true he was a product of society, but i guess he wasn't able to overcome his conditioning fully because if he had he'd be a free man walkin today
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oojijimoo
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: oojijimoo]
#14983480 - 08/26/11 05:11 PM (8 months, 29 days ago) |
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he should never have formed a cult, that was highly irresponsible
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14983684 - 08/26/11 05:56 PM (8 months, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Let's see these interviews! When does he vocally support Hitler, the holocaust, or Neo Nazis?
Based on your response to my post, I have a feeling that you're not going to attempt to listen to what I say. And I'm not going to go through hundreds of hours of Manson interviews so that I can prove my point that Manson is racist. One thing I did do, was look up one scene from the pro-Manson documentary called Charles Manson Superstar. This is just one little sliver of the overwhelming evidence that Manson is a racist.
I'm starting it at 10:00 in. When asked if he feels connected to Hitler, he says "We all do" and then talks about Hitler in very complimentary fashion saying "Anybody who wants to put order in the world has got to stumble upon Hitler". He's saying that anyone who cares about changing the world would do what Hitler did. Then he says that (in reference to what Hitler did) "You don't have any other choice". He's saying that you have to kill millions of people in order to put order into the world.
11:18, they talk about Manson's kinship with Hitler's deputy and Nazi war criminal, Rudolph Hess. Manson goes on to speak of Hess as a hero, as his idol and someone who was "on that very same thought that you and I are standing on now".
12:27, with his hand in a Nazi salute, he talks about how you can't kill that thought (the one that he and Hess were/are in). He goes on to say that "too many people (the Nazis) gave their lives for it".
So that's just a small example of Manson's racism and support for the Nazi movement. If I wanted to, I could go on for days with examples such as those, but I'm not going to spend anymore time on it, at least until I can see that you're actually listening. I spent an hour preparing this post tonight and I hope you won't just gloss over what I've said and presented without taking a hard look at it.
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Mp3 of the month: The Shy Guys - Black Lightning Light
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14983722 - 08/26/11 06:06 PM (8 months, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
He tried to start the race war by killing rich white people
Who did he kill? Hint: nobody.
So if I give someone money to kill your family, would you call me innocent? Manson didn't use money, but he used his influence which is the exact same thing.
And again, even if you don't believe that he told those people to kill, which all but TWO of his former Family members will attest to, he drove the killers to The Labiancas' home and he tied them up! That's accessory to murder. He also helped Clem and Bruce Davis murder Shorty Shea. Once again, he is an accessory to murder! That makes him directly involved in the brutal slayings of three innocent people even if you forget about his influence over the Gary Hinman and Sharon Tate (and friends) killings. If someone was directly involved with killing your family, would you call them innocent? Come on dude.
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Mp3 of the month: The Shy Guys - Black Lightning Light
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Icelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Learyfan] 1
#14984134 - 08/26/11 07:42 PM (8 months, 29 days ago) |
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So if I give someone money to kill your family, would you call me innocent?
No I would not call you innocent but I also would not call you a murderer. Are we the american people guilty of the killings in Iraq of innocent civilians due to the fact that we pay taxes that go to paying for the bombs and bullets?
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Sly Stone
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 595
Loc: Never get out of the boat
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14984190 - 08/26/11 07:57 PM (8 months, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Are we the american people guilty of the killings in Iraq of innocent civilians due to the fact that we pay taxes that go to paying for the bombs and bullets?
No, so what?
Taxes are not voluntary and we have no direct control over what the money is spent on.
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Icelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Sly Stone] 1
#14984233 - 08/26/11 08:09 PM (8 months, 29 days ago) |
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Taxes are voluntary. However there are consequences for not paying just like everything else in life.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14984522 - 08/26/11 09:28 PM (8 months, 29 days ago) |
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Do you think Hitler was innocent of murder? He didn't personally murder anyone.
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Mp3 of the month: The Shy Guys - Black Lightning Light
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Icelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Learyfan] 1
#14984553 - 08/26/11 09:35 PM (8 months, 29 days ago) |
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Yes I do. I hold those who did the deed responsible. They were moral and ethical cowards who seemed to think that "just following orders" meant that someone else was responsible.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander] 1
#14985150 - 08/27/11 12:08 AM (8 months, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
When asked if he feels connected to Hitler, he says "We all do" and then talks about Hitler in very complimentary fashion saying "Anybody who wants to put order in the world has got to stumble upon Hitler".
Of course we're all connected to Hitler. He's our brother just as much as Mother Teresa is our sister. And, yes, anyone who wants to understand and put order to the reality that monsters like Hitler have always existed will have to rationalize it. These characters exist inside of humanity.
He also said, right after that comment, "now a days you don't need all of that explosive power. You can do it with your computer, and buttons, and stuff." He is talking about manipulating the world. This has jack shit to do with Jews, you realize that, right? [By the way, I live in Israel, man] He's talking about the natural inclination of people towards controlling others through power.
In that clip, when asked how he feels about race, he says "everybody look out for themselves. This is my race right here, it's me."
Quote:
11:18, they talk about Manson's kinship with Hitler's deputy and Nazi war criminal, Rudolph Hess. Manson goes on to speak of Hess as a hero, as his idol and someone who was "on that very same thought that you and I are standing on now".
The "very same thought" they are standing on is one of conviction. They are convinced of the reality of the situation in the same way that Hess and any other human is swept along by their culture and their history. Nazism was an immensely popular and long-term cultural ideology - it affects many lives with those people who dedicated their heart to it. Destructive, yes. But that same streak is still in every single human alive today.
Why can't you see that every documentary about this guy has to try really hard to make him seem like a monster? Manson, to be uneducated, speaks quite eloquently - though it is often vague or ambiguous. So, within these semantic gaps jumps a million reporters trying to prove themselves by showing some other fabricated aspect of his personality. But what happens is they end up, just like he said, reflecting what beliefs are inside of themselves. He's often just a mirror.
Quote:
So that's just a small example of Manson's racism and support for the Nazi movement. If I wanted to, I could go on for days with examples such as those, but I'm not going to spend anymore time on it, at least until I can see that you're actually listening. I spent an hour preparing this post tonight and I hope you won't just gloss over what I've said and presented without taking a hard look at it.
Case in point, man. You spent over an hour to prove what you are arguing is supposedly obvious. You don't see the irony here?
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Edited by The Whale (08/27/11 12:13 AM)
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: oojijimoo]
#14985176 - 08/27/11 12:24 AM (8 months, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
guruu said:
I mean give me a break, that dude was evil! He's got a swastika tatooed on his forehead...true he was a product of society, but i guess he wasn't able to overcome his conditioning fully because if he had he'd be a free man walkin today
The idea of a "free man walking" is still a socially-defined condition. And "that dude was evil" will not suffice in this thread for evidence of malice. I've addressed this claim over and over, we'll need to see proof. So far there has been nothing other than hearsay and regurgitation.
There are swastikas carved in trees, rocks, churches, and religious symbology around the world (again, this has already been posted) over thousands of years. I've seen them personally in India. It's truly an empty vessel. But in many people it evokes fear because of their association with WWII. He may have done this intentionally for effect, or he may have used it for power in prison. At any rate, he doesn't identity with Nazism. According to news reports, it was initially a letter "X."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14985325 - 08/27/11 01:43 AM (8 months, 29 days ago) |
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There was a post by bizzle. What happened to it?
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Icelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14985594 - 08/27/11 06:06 AM (8 months, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Quote:
guruu said:
I mean give me a break, that dude was evil! He's got a swastika tatooed on his forehead...true he was a product of society, but i guess he wasn't able to overcome his conditioning fully because if he had he'd be a free man walkin today
The idea of a "free man walking" is still a socially-defined condition. And "that dude was evil" will not suffice in this thread for evidence of malice. I've addressed this claim over and over, we'll need to see proof. So far there has been nothing other than hearsay and regurgitation.
There are swastikas carved in trees, rocks, churches, and religious symbology around the world (again, this has already been posted) over thousands of years. I've seen them personally in India. It's truly an empty vessel. But in many people it evokes fear because of their association with WWII. He may have done this intentionally for effect, or he may have used it for power in prison. At any rate, he doesn't identity with Nazism. According to news reports, it was initially a letter "X."
This imo is the same thoughless way many are vilified. The TV and News Media pass out a few sound bites that posit the cultural position and even the "radicals" fall in line.
Makes you wonder how they come about many of their other beliefs
Bravo for you for making this thread and sticking your neck out here for what you believe.
Personally I don't think he's a saint a prophet or a shaman but I don't believe in saints prophets or shamans. I do think in some ways at least he is awake. Far more than most people even here at the shroomery. What I think is he was just a guy who lucked into some very difficult psychological life circumstances when he was a little boy and did the best he could with that situation. He did better than I likely would have under the same circumstances. Very few people know about his brutal childhood and early incarcerations when just a youngster. He is very correct when he said he was a creation of the very culture that vilifies him.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14987092 - 08/27/11 01:12 PM (8 months, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Bravo for you for making this thread and sticking your neck out here for what you believe.
Thanks for contributing to the conversation and keeping it going.
Quote:
Personally I don't think he's a saint a prophet or a shaman but I don't believe in saints prophets or shamans. I do think in some ways at least he is awake. Far more than most people even here at the shroomery. What I think is he was just a guy who lucked into some very difficult psychological life circumstances when he was a little boy and did the best he could with that situation. He did better than I likely would have under the same circumstances. Very few people know about his brutal childhood and early incarcerations when just a youngster. He is very correct when he said he was a creation of the very culture that vilifies him.
Yes, so the very culture that calls him a monster is the culture that systematically nurtured him into that (fabricated) beast.
I don't believe there is static entity known as a "saint/shaman/prophet" but I believe there are certain characteristics that we attribute to such roles, and IMO Manson possesses quite a few of those. What I find fascinating is his delivery isn't sugar-coated in New Age garble, but he is saying exactly what the New Age crowd strives to articulate and even more things they are afraid to admit. He has a trickster mind (often depicted as a raven in mythology), a jester sort of physical behavior, and an ability to rapidly alternate between personality types. He's smart and he's had no more education than a high school drop out.
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Icelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale] 1
#14987144 - 08/27/11 01:27 PM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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I hear and agree.
Veritas, who was a poster here for some time and a favorite among many has studied CM extensively. She emphasized the fact that CM called cultures sacred cows out for public exhibition. They had no choice but to vilify him and shut him up.
IMO one of his main messages is if you psychologically torture a young boy with neglect and imprisonment you will create a monster that you will then need to condemn as self made to exonerate yourself from acknowledging taking part in his creation.
I don't believe there is static entity known as a "saint/shaman/prophet" but I believe there are certain characteristics that we attribute to such roles, and IMO Manson possesses quite a few of those. What I find fascinating is his delivery isn't sugar-coated in New Age garble, but he is saying exactly what the New Age crowd strives to articulate and even more things they are afraid to admit. He has a trickster mind (often depicted as a raven in mythology), a jester sort of physical behavior, and an ability to rapidly alternate between personality types. He's smart and he's had no more education than a high school drop out.
I think this is a very good analysis. It's a part I have played here at times in the Icelander mode and have often gotten a similar reaction. Maybe that's why I empathize with him. While I'm not going to directly compare my childhood to his I was the product of abuse and neglect, which if it had been worse would have probably caused me to act out in some similar ways. His path, though more difficult, may also have lead to greater wisdom. Hard to tell.
The coyote is also a favorite trickster in indian culture and was my avatar for years here.
Edited by Icelander (08/27/11 01:35 PM)
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blewmeanie
Sativa Cyborg
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Learyfan]
#14988460 - 08/27/11 06:42 PM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Learyfan said:
Do you think Hitler was innocent of murder? He didn't personally murder anyone.
Another person that even as a jew I am in awe of. The mental power he had was truly incredible. Most people don't realize he was actually a homeless street shoveler before joining the army where he was said by fellow soldiers to spend his time meditating between engagements during ww1.
I think there's a very good reason so many "spiritual gurus" throughout time have first recommend moral perfection before engaging in self-transforming "spiritual" practices. Small awakenings can very easily create monsters if there's not a base layer of ethical conditioning to keep one in check.
edit:durp de durp
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Icelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: blewmeanie]
#14988896 - 08/27/11 08:17 PM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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Verry interesting. 
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: blewmeanie]
#14989257 - 08/27/11 09:45 PM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
blewmeanie said:
even as a jew
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blewmeanie
Sativa Cyborg
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14989262 - 08/27/11 09:46 PM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: blewmeanie]
#14989272 - 08/27/11 09:49 PM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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Then I shall commence one Jesus joke:
What's the difference between Jesus and a picture of Jesus?
It only takes one nail to hang a picture.
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blewmeanie
Sativa Cyborg
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 27,596
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14989284 - 08/27/11 09:52 PM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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What is the difference between a Jew and a canoe?
Canoes tip
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The Whale
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: blewmeanie]
#14989304 - 08/27/11 09:57 PM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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What's the difference between Charles Manson and a Jew?
One controls the media, the other is controlled by the media.
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unfoldedbrain
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Learyfan]
#14989567 - 08/27/11 11:41 PM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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Just stumbled upon this interesting thread. I always find it interesting when something that is held as fact is challenged. I never knew too much about manson, just bits and pieces about what everyone hears about him that he was a cult leader that convinced people to murder a bunch of people.
But this has been posted twice now and I have yet to see someone acknowledge it, I am very interested to here what a Manson supporter would counter act this argument with.
And again, even if you don't believe that he told those people to kill, which all but TWO of his former Family members will attest to, he drove the killers to The Labiancas' home and he tied them up! That's accessory to murder. He also helped Clem and Bruce Davis murder Shorty Shea. Once again, he is an accessory to murder! That makes him directly involved in the brutal slayings of three innocent people even if you forget about his influence over the Gary Hinman and Sharon Tate (and friends) killings.
If he actually tied people up, then yeah you could argue that he didn't "murder" them but at least he is an accessory. And even if that isn't as bad, and yeah people are responsible for their own actions and all that. I think that at the very least that would strip him of any kind of "enlightened guru" sort of title.
I have not formed an opinion of Manson yet, nor will I. I personally only believe in my own experiences. I never met him or anyone personally connected to him, all I have is "he said she said". He could be an enlightened innocent man. Or he could be a crazed charismatic lunatic who actually tied people down and then ordered people, who were convinced that he was god, to murder them. Or he could be somewhere in between. Either way the discussion is still very interesting to me and I'd like to hear some arguments against his actual convictions rather than just saying "but look at him, he's so enlightened, how could he be a murderer?"
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: unfoldedbrain]
#14989611 - 08/28/11 12:12 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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Ice, I think it's interesting this is the image on the ATWA website:
Quote:
And again, even if you don't believe that he told those people to kill, which all but TWO of his former Family members will attest to, he drove the killers to The Labiancas' home and he tied them up! That's accessory to murder. He also helped Clem and Bruce Davis murder Shorty Shea. Once again, he is an accessory to murder! That makes him directly involved in the brutal slayings of three innocent people even if you forget about his influence over the Gary Hinman and Sharon Tate (and friends) killings.
I personally don't have any evidence-based or logical rebuttal aside from intuition and biased beliefs. I will conjure some info soon. In the mean time, consider:
"In the infamous Sharon Tate murder case, the Los Angeles Police Department administered polygraph examinations to William Garretson, the 19 year old caretaker, and to Sharon Tate’s husband, Roman Polanski. Both passed the tests which showed they had no knowledge of, or involvement in the murders..."
From: http://www.nettrace.com.au/content/nta10001.htm
As far as I know, Manson hasn't been allowed to call any witnesses. He also hasn't been allowed a polygraph test. Why is this?
Here's his direct testimony:
Direct testimony:
There has been a lot of charges and a lot of things said about me and brought against the co-defendants in this case, of which a lot could be cleared up and clarified. . . .
I never went to school, so I never growed up to read and write too good, so I have stayed in jail and I have stayed stupid, and I have stayed a child while I have watched your world grow up, and then I look at the things that you do and I don't understand. . . .
You eat meat and you kill things that are better than you are, and then you say how bad, and even killers, your children
are. You made your children what they are. . . .
These children that come at you with knives. they are your children. You taught them. I didn't teach them. I just tried to help them stand up. . . .
Most of the people at the ranch that you call the Family were just people that you did not want, people that were alongside the road, that their parents had kicked out, that did not want to go to Juvenile Hall. So I did the best I could and I took them up on my garbage dump and I told them this: that in love there is no wrong. . . .
I told them that anything they do for their brothers and sisters is good if they do it with a good thought. . . .
I was working at cleaning up my house, something that Nixon should have been doing. He should have been on the side of the road, picking up his children, but he wasn't. He was in the White House, sending them off to war. . . .
I don't understand you, but I don't try. I don't try to judge nobody. I know that the only person I can judge is me . . . But I know this: that in your hearts and your own souls, you are as much responsible for the Vietnam war as I am for killing these people. . . .
I can't judge any of you. I have no malice against you and no ribbons for you. But I think that it is high time that you all start looking at yourselves, and judging the lie that you live in.
I can't dislike you, but I will say this to you: you haven't got long before you are all going to kill yourselves, because you are all crazy. And you can project it back at me . . . but I am only what lives inside each and everyone of you.
My father is the jailhouse. My father is your system. . . I am only what you made me. I am only a reflection of you.
I have ate out of your garbage cans to stay out of jail. I have wore your second-hand clothes. . . I have done my best to get along in your world and now you want to kill me, and I look at you, and then I say to myself, You want to kill me? Ha! I'm already dead, have been all my life. I've spent twenty-three years in tombs that you built.
Sometimes I think about giving it back to you; sometimes I think about just jumping on you and letting you shoot me . . . If I could, I would jerk this microphone off and beat your brains out with it, because that is what you deserve, that is what
you deserve. . . .
If I could get angry at you, I would try to kill everyone of you. If that's guilt, I accept it . . .These children, everything they
done, they done for the love of their brother. . . .
If I showed them that I would do anything for my brother--including giving my life for my brother on the battlefield--and
then they pick up their banner, and they go off and do what they do, that is not my responsibility. I don't tell people
what to do . . . .
These children [indicating the female defendants] were finding themselves. What they did, if they did whatever they did, is
up to them. They will have to explain that to you. . . .
It's all your fear. You look for something to project it on, and you pick out a little old scroungy nobody that eats out of a
garbage can, and that nobody wants, that was kicked out of the penitentiary, that has been dragged through every hellhole that you can think of, and you drag him and put him in a courtroom.
You expect to break me? Impossible! You broke me years ago. You killed me years ago. . . .
[Judge Older asked Manson if he had anything further to say.]
I have killed no one and I have ordered no one to be killed. I may have implied on several different occasions to several different people that I may have been Jesus Christ, but I haven't decided yet what I am or who I am. Some called him Christ, Manson said. In prison his name was a number. Some now want a sadistic fiend, and so they see him as that. So be it. Guilty. Not guilty. They are only words. You can do anything you want with me, but you cannot touch me because I am only my love. . . If you put me in the penitentiary, that means nothing because you kicked me out of the last one. I didn't ask to get released. I liked it in there because I like myself.
[ Judge Older told Manson, "You seem to be getting far afield." He told Manson to stick to the issue raised in the trial.]
The issues? . . . Mr. Bugliosi is a hard-driving prosecutor, polished education, a master of words, semantics. He is a genius. He has got everything that every lawyer would want to have except one thing: a case. He doesn't have a case. Were I allowed to defend myself, I could have proven this to you. . .The evidence in this case is a gun. There was a gun
that laid around the ranch. It belonged to everybody. Anybody could have picked that gun up and done anything they
wanted to do with it. I don't deny having that gun. That gun has been in my possession many times. Like the rope was there because you need rope on a ranch. . . .It is really convenient that Mr. Baggot found those clothes. I imagine he got a little taste of money for that. . . .They put the hideous bodies on [photographic] display and they imply: If he gets out, see what will happen to you. . . .[Helter Skelter] means confusion, literally. It doesn't mean any war with anyone. It doesn't mean that some people are going to kill other people. . . Helter Skelter is confusion. Confusion is coming down around you fast. If you can't see the confusion coming down around you fast, you can call it what you wish. . Is it a conspiracy that the music is telling the youth to rise up against the establishment because the establishment is rapidly destroying things? Is that a conspiracy? The music speaks to you every day, but you are too deaf, dumb, and blind to even listen to the music. . . It is not my conspiracy. It is not my music. I hear what it relates. It says "Rise," it says "Kill." Why blame it on me? I didn't write the music. . . .
Danny DeCarlo. . .said that I hate black men, and he said that we thought alike. . . But actually all I ever did with Danny
DeCarlo or any other human being was reflect him back at himself. If he said he did not like the black man, I would say
'O.K.' So consequently he would drink another beer and walk off and say 'Charlie thinks like I do.' But actually he does
not know how Charlie thinks because Charlie has never projected himself. I don't think like you people. You people put
importance on your lives. Well, my life has never been important to anyone. . . .
[Linda Kasabian] gets on the stand and she says when she looked in that man's eyes that was dying, she knew that it was
my fault. She knew it was my fault because she couldn't face death. And if she can't face death, that is not my fault. I can
face death. I have all the time. In the penitentiary you live with it, with constant fear of death, because it is a violent world in there, and you have to be on your toes constantly. . . .
[I taught the Family] not to be weak and not to lean on me. . . .I told [Paul Watkins],"To be a man, boy, you have to stand up and be your own father." So he goes off to the desert and finds a father image in Paul Crockett. . . .
I do feel some responsibility. I feel a responsibility for the pollution. I feel a responsibility for the whole thing. . . .To be
honest with you, I don't recall ever saying "Get a knife and a change of clothes and go do what Tex says." Or I don't recall saying "Get a knife and go kill the sheriff." In fact, it makes me mad when someone kills snakes or dogs or cats or horses. I don't even like to eat meat-that is how much I am against killing. . . .
I haven't got any guilt about anything because I have never been able to see any wrong. . . I have always said: Do what
your love tells you, and I do what my love tells me . . . Is it my fault that your children do what you do? What about your
children? You say there are just a few? There are many, many more, coming in the same direction. They are running in the streets-and they are coming right at you!
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/manson/mansontestimony-m.html
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14989699 - 08/28/11 01:29 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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Cool thread... much indeed can be learned from Charles, Son of Man.
Mr. and Mrs. America--you are wrong. I am not the King of the Jews nor am I a hippie cult leader. I am what you have made of me and the mad dog devil killer fiend leper is a reflection of your society... Whatever the outcome of this madness that you call a fair trial or Christian justice, you can know this: in my mind's eye my thoughts light fires in your cities.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: deCypher]
#14989848 - 08/28/11 03:41 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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Glad you agree.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14990012 - 08/28/11 06:07 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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That's a very intense read and I agree with much of it.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14990029 - 08/28/11 06:24 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
He's smart and he's had no more education than a high school drop out.
"I was so smart when I was a kid that I learnt that I was dumb fast."
--CM
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,769
Loc: Sugar Town
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Poid]
#14990067 - 08/28/11 06:51 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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I actually met Charles Manson at a California Correctional Facility. He was in Corcoran CA at the time in medium security. Nice guy, real friendly. He was having some problems developing his website so they needed some outside assistance.
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Don't worry be happy.
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: LunarEclipse] 1
#14990433 - 08/28/11 08:50 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
I actually met Charles Manson at a California Correctional Facility. He was in Corcoran CA at the time in medium security. Nice guy, real friendly. He was having some problems developing his website so they needed some outside assistance.
He should write a children's book, "Learning HTML with Uncle Charlie."
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LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,769
Loc: Sugar Town
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14990682 - 08/28/11 09:41 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
I actually met Charles Manson at a California Correctional Facility. He was in Corcoran CA at the time in medium security. Nice guy, real friendly. He was having some problems developing his website so they needed some outside assistance.
He should write a children's book, "Learning HTML with Uncle Charlie."
Sure why not. Everyone needs an Uncle Charlie sometime in their lives.
Shit if I told you to jump off a bridge and you did and landed on someone swimming in the water and killed them who murdered whom?
Silly. He's a whack I would play cards with him and take soups just for fun. Watch him get all pissed and puffed up. You think Charlie would be a bad ass in the pen? LOL.
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Don't worry be happy.
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: LunarEclipse]
#14990696 - 08/28/11 09:44 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
You think Charlie would be a bad ass in the pen? LOL.
What "prison"?
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LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,769
Loc: Sugar Town
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14990700 - 08/28/11 09:46 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
You think Charlie would be a bad ass in the pen? LOL.
What "prison"?
Any prison he has been at. Corcoran, Pelican Bay etc. He is an amusement in jail. You think you couldn't get his goat along with soup? Or maybe win a pie from him. That would piss him off.
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Don't worry be happy.
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: LunarEclipse]
#14990717 - 08/28/11 09:49 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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I don't understand the soup and pie reference. Maybe you're hungry, dawg?
By "what prison?" I was quoting Manson whenever interviewers ask him how it feels to be behind bars and he suggests to them they should re-evaluate their definition of space.
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14990740 - 08/28/11 09:55 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,769
Loc: Sugar Town
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14990754 - 08/28/11 09:58 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
I don't understand the soup and pie reference. Maybe you're hungry, dawg?
By "what prison?" I was quoting Manson whenever interviewers ask him how it feels to be behind bars and he suggests to them they should re-evaluate their definition of space.
Obviously you are more interested in his BS them answer than what really goes on behind bars. Carry on you obviously know Charlie.
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Don't worry be happy.
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: LunarEclipse]
#14990813 - 08/28/11 10:14 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
Quote:
The Whale said:
I don't understand the soup and pie reference. Maybe you're hungry, dawg?
By "what prison?" I was quoting Manson whenever interviewers ask him how it feels to be behind bars and he suggests to them they should re-evaluate their definition of space.
Obviously you are more interested in his BS them answer than what really goes on behind bars. Carry on you obviously know Charlie.
I never professed to know anything about the man, or to be "more interested in his bullshit." You're the cat that cruised up in here talking about how you met him (my, Captain, what big balls you must have!), and then make sly and competitive jokes about my ignorance of the real situation. Go strut your peacock somewhere else.
On a different and classy note, this part is hilarious:
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14990822 - 08/28/11 10:16 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
I actually met Charles Manson at a California Correctional Facility. He was in Corcoran CA at the time in medium security. Nice guy, real friendly. He was having some problems developing his website so they needed some outside assistance.
He should write a children's book, "Learning HTML with Uncle Charlie."
I've just had a long chat about Charles with Veritas and am going to revise my opinion somewhat. Not as to some of what he said being true but what he was about in saying it.
I was convinced after the conversation that CM is a psychopath and that he was culpable in the murders. His ability to speak as a sage was calculated to have an effect on the audience and due to his survival needs. He of course studied these guru's and knew the effect their words have on people and would shine a certain light on how he was hoping to be viewed. He is what Veritas calls and organized psychopath due to his great intelligence and was able to manipulate a group of unorganized psychopaths into a coherent action that they would have never been able to take on their own. He was the master mind behind their actions. He did not want to take the consequences for these actions himself and so persuaded others to do the actual murders.
Veritas recommends the book Helter Skelter for those interested in a somewhat sensationalized but basically accurate account of the events and CMs mind set. I'm going to read it myself.
This does not change my views on Charlie being right about society and his parents nurturing these psychopathic traits.
Very interesting stuff. 
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14990831 - 08/28/11 10:18 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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Damn, Ice. Nice 180. I hope you're still confident about your enlightenment though?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14990855 - 08/28/11 10:23 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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Of course I'm not. But my ability to change my mind when presented with compelling evidence speaks well for me I think. Being wrong and being willing to change directions when necessary has been one of the most important steps in my personal growth and learning.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14990879 - 08/28/11 10:30 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Of course I'm not. But my ability to change my mind when presented with compelling evidence speaks well for me I think. Being wrong and being willing to change directions when necessary has been one of the most important steps in my personal growth and learning.
Aw, come on, man. Wars are waged on conviction. Unstable truths and skepticism isn't good for the trigger finger. Who's going to protect us?
Kidding, glad you changed so quickly on a whim. That's actually fun to have your perspective and viewpoints bend around like a flexible woman. Mental stagnation is for the birds.
Now, get away! I'm trying to lull unsuspecting children into learning about gurus so they too can become organized psychopaths and seek revenge on Holywood [sic].
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Sly Stone
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 595
Loc: Never get out of the boat
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14990889 - 08/28/11 10:32 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I was convinced after the conversation that CM is a psychopath and that he was culpable in the murders.
Yay! 
I don't believe anything Charlie says. He is just acting like he is in control.
I read Helter Skelter about 30 years ago.
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Sly Stone]
#14990917 - 08/28/11 10:39 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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From: http://www.allthewayalive.com/One_World_Order/one.html
LIE - Charles Manson is a murderer. The assumption that Charles Manson is some kind of murderer has been so widely and blindly accepted that many people regard it as a fundamental truth. Manson's picture graces the covers of numerous books on mass murder. Media interviewers assume that he is a killer. (Geraldo to CM: "You're a mass-murdering dog.") Yet Manson has never killed anyone. The prosecution never claimed that he killed any of the persons for whose murders he was convicted (He was never present at the Tate residence; he left the LaBianca residence before anyone was killed; he was not present when either Gary Hinman or Shorty Shea was killed.). And aside from some wholly unsubstantiated rumors (e.g. that he shot someone in the head with a .45 in Death Valley) there is no evidence that he ever killed anyone in a murder that he wasn't charged with.
LIE - Charles Manson wanted to be a rock and roll star. In American society celebrity and attention have become so important to so many people that anyone who excels in certain fields (especially the fields of music, motion pictures, television, sports) can achieve a position of status and adoration that was formally reserved for great statesmen, military heroes, and members of royal families. In America today, recognition, in any form, is taken as greatness. Because this "cult of celebrity" is so much a part of the contemporary American psyche it is plausible to many people that fame and approval are desired by everyone.
Thus is Manson supposedly affected by the influences and yearnings of American society. But Manson is not a part of that society, and nothing in his history demonstrates that he ever had a desire to be well known. To the contrary, all of his behavior indicates a desire to get away from society and live in the total obscurity of the desert.
LIE - Prior to December, 1969 there was a group of individuals known as "The Manson Family". The people at Spahn Ranch never referred to themselves by any collective name. (There was a musical group at the ranch called "The Family Jams".) The term "Manson Family" was coined by the news media, adopted by the prosecution, and has been used since as a convenient way to categorize a group that in fact never existed in any organized form.
LIE - Charles Manson was the undisputed "leader" of that group. Since there was no group, there was no leader.
LIE - Manson and his associates abused drugs. While the people at Spahn Ranch did use substances such as marijuana, LSD, mescaline, peyote, and psilocybin, there was no widespread use of any drugs such as cocaine, amphetamines, or any of the spectrum of drugs commonly known as "downers". This fact is well documented by the statements of even such pro-prosecution people as Paul Watkins. Manson was known to run people off who abused drugs. Tex Watson and Susan Atkins have both stated in their books that their use of speed was hidden from the other people at the ranch. No substantial amount of any kind of drug was ever seized during any of the numerous police raids on Manson and his associates.
LIE- The motive for the Tate/LaBianca killings was to ignite "Helter Skelter". This is an important lie since it supposedly points the finger of guilt at Charles Manson and demonstrates that he had a personal motive for the Tate/LaBianca murders to take place. Motive is important, for while a prosecutor is not required to show motive they usually do because: a. it is usually pretty obvious, and b. motive is strong circumstantial evidence of a person's guilt. (Actually, it is more than that. It is an absolute requirement, one of the three things a person always has when they commit a crime. The other two are means and opportunity.) But conversely, lack of motive is strong circumstantial evidence of a person's innocence. Bugliosi, immediately assumed Manson's guilt and then arranged all the "evidence" to suit that premise. No other version of the crime or interpretation of any of the evidence was even considered. Unfortunately, the D.A. had trouble finding any motive tying Manson to the crimes. A large part of Helter Skelter, over 60 pages, is devoted to overcoming this troublesome flaw in the "Manson is guilty" scenario. And the only motive Bugliosi could come up with was the literally unbelievable 'helter skelter' motive. Briefly, this motive is as follows: Manson and his "family" were white racists who hoped to provoke a race war by committing atrocity murders against whites which would be blamed on blacks. The ensuing outrage over these murders would cause whites to retaliate, thus beginning the war ("Helter Skelter"). While this war was raging Manson and "the family" would be waiting it out in a bottomless pit in Death Valley. (The "bottomless pit", as presented by Bugliosi, is just one aspect of the 'helter skelter' motive which, if truly believed by Manson et. al., would have rendered them psychotic and probably incompetent to stand trial.) The blacks would win the war but not know how to run the world, so they would have to hand the power over to the only white people left on earth: Charles Manson and his "family". Literally fantastic.
The real motive was to get a brother, Bobby BeauSoleil, out of jail by committing "copycat" murders that would convince the authorities that BeauSoleil could not be guilty of the murder (of Gary Hinman) for which he had been arrested on August 6, 1969. This motive is much more realistic and has much more circumstantial support than the DA's fantastic 'helter skelter' motive. It's the real motive. There's only one thing wrong with it from the prosecutorial point of view: It is not a personal motive for Charles Manson.
LIE - Manson's father may have been black. Bugliosi offers this allegation in his book as a possible and convenient explanation of Manson's alleged hatred of black people (Shades of Hitler's Jewish grandmother!). It is a ridiculous contention. In the first place, Manson is totally lacking any of the physical Negroid features that one would expect to observe in a mulatto. In the second place, Bugliosi bases this allegation on the questionable premise (itself based on old and probably inaccurate records) that the "colored cook Colonel Scott" was Manson's father. But even if the mysterious Colonel Scott was Manson's father, it is unlikely that he (Scott) was "colored". To see this, one would only have to examine the newspaper articles from the Ashland, Kentucky Daily Independent that covered the murder of Colonel Scott's brother, Darwin Orell Scott, in May of 1969. The photograph of Darwin Scott (the brother of Manson's supposed father) that accompanies the articles is clearly of a white man.
LIE - Manson and his associates may have been responsible for as many as 35 murders. The basis for this lie is a single statement made during an LAPD interview with Juan Flynn on August 18, 1970. "(Manson) admitted -- he boasted -- of thirty-five lives taken in a period of two days." That's it for the "evidence" of additional murders beyond the nine for which convictions were obtained. Bugliosi spends over ten pages of Helter Skelter listing murders he hints that Manson or his associates may have committed, but there is no real evidence to support any of these contentions unless you believe the premise "Well, these murders happened around the same time and Manson and his friends were homicidal maniacs, so they must have done them." Here we will address three of Bugliosi's examples:
1. Darwin Orell Scott; Ashland, Kentucky; May 27, 1969 - Darwin Scott was found hacked to death in his modest apartment on May 27, 1969. Apparently Manson's motive for this murder was that Scott was the brother of his alleged father, "Colonel Scott". Despite the claims of several Ashland residents that Manson was in the area around the time of the death, even Bugliosi admits that Manson was probably in California on the day of the murder. Newspaper articles about the crime say that Scott was known to have large sums of money in his apartment and that local police believed money was the motive for the slaying. Scott, who had a record for breaking and entering and forgery, may have been involved in the area's illicit liquor trade. Police found 86 fifths and 28 pints of whiskey in his apartment.
2. Joel Dean Pugh; London, England; December 1, 1969 - Joel Pugh was found in a London hotel with his throat and wrists slashed. Pugh is usually described as the husband of Sandra Good. In fact they were never married. Although Pugh is also described as a "former Manson Family member" in Helter Skelter, he never met Manson or any of the other so-called Family members. After Joel Pugh's death his parents journeyed to London to satisfy themselves with the official verdict of suicide. After checking all the medical records (Pugh's father was a doctor at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota) and the files at Scotland Yard they were satisfied that the death was, indeed, a suicide.
3. Marina Habe; Los Angeles, California; December 30, 1969 - This one is easy. There is simply no evidence whatsoever to connect anyone from Spahn Ranch with the murder of Miss Habe. But she was killed in Los Angeles, so Bugliosi included her as a possible victim of the "Manson Family".
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale] 1
#14990965 - 08/28/11 10:48 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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Kidding, glad you changed so quickly on a whim. That's actually fun to have your perspective and viewpoints bend around like a flexible woman. Mental stagnation is for the birds.
A three hour in depth conversation is not a whim. You throwing in that jab is evidence of your attachment to your POV here. I do it all the time myself so I'm not just picking on you. And comparing me to a woman is another jab and shows bias towards the opposite sex.
Veritas is one of the most accomplished psychologists I've ever met, especially in the field of abnormal psychology which is her special interest. All the time we were having our conversation I kept thinking how much I would have enjoyed having you there to hear what she was saying and allowing you to question her. My post was just a drop in the bucket.
I still admire much of what Charlie has to say. I'm just not believing that those words belong to him on any true emotional level.
Many psychopaths are superior liars due to lack of normal guilt shame reactions. They can often easily pass a lie detector test for those reasons. Lying does not threaten them even on a subconscious level.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 25,441
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 7 hours, 47 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14990977 - 08/28/11 10:51 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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Let's all not forget that Manson drove the killers to the house of Leno and Rosemary LaBianca and then held them at gunpoint as he instructed Tex Watson to tie them up. Then he left before his family members stabbed Leno LaBianca 27 times and Rosemary LaBianca 41 times.
Then he was with Bruce Davis and Steve Grogan as he instructed them to murder Shorty Shea. Shorty was cut up 9 times and buried.
For these crimes alone, Manson is to be despised. These were real people. These were people just like your loved ones. They had emotions and feelings and family and friends who loved them, just like your loved ones. What's worse is that they did absolutely nothing to deserve this.
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Mp3 of the month: The Shy Guys - Black Lightning Light
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 25,441
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 7 hours, 47 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14991072 - 08/28/11 11:17 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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I'm proud of you Icelander.
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Mp3 of the month: The Shy Guys - Black Lightning Light
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Learyfan] 1
#14991131 - 08/28/11 11:28 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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Well, that makes you and me.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14991187 - 08/28/11 11:37 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
A three hour in depth conversation is not a whim. You throwing in that jab is evidence of your attachment to your POV here. I do it all the time myself so I'm not just picking on you. And comparing me to a woman is another jab and shows bias towards the opposite sex.
1. I was joking, I'm seriously glad to see people's beliefs become malleable. It's a good thing.
2. The flexibility joke was about a woman's hips. It wasn't misogynistic. It's praise.
Quote:
Veritas is one of the most accomplished psychologists I've ever met, especially in the field of abnormal psychology which is her special interest. All the time we were having our conversation I kept thinking how much I would have enjoyed having you there to hear what she was saying and allowing you to question her. My post was just a drop in the bucket.
Speaking of women... lol. Kidding again. Should I preface my posts now with disclaimers for my cheap humor?
I know Veritas. I used to lurk in P&S back when it was actually P&S.
Quote:
I still admire much of what Charlie has to say. I'm just not believing that those words belong to him on any true emotional level.
He isn't very prone to typical emotions, judging from his interviews and his own self-reflections about his lack of concern for what most people consider worthy of being sad, happy, or angry about. But regarding an emotional relationship to his words and eloquence, I view him quite the same way as I view any fellow knee deep in the Bardic tradition. His playful and curious disposition improves what he is saying rather than complicating it, IMO. He isn't appealing to emotion, and that's the whole damn point. His entire public persona exploits and manipulates our emotions of fear, uncertainty, suspicion, and host of other ones.
Quote:
Many psychopaths are superior liars due to lack of normal guilt shame reactions. They can often easily pass a lie detector test for those reasons. Lying does not threaten them even on a subconscious level.
I don't think he's lying personally. But each to their own. He'll never leave prison. If his detailed story and personality is one big lie, then he is the most consistent fucking liar I've ever listened to. But that's how they get ya, right? He sits around all day and studies peoples' psychology? Between robbing convenient stores and living in a tent he is polishing up on his guru skills...
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14991236 - 08/28/11 11:44 AM (8 months, 28 days ago) |
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I'm just another opinion on these boards
I don't think he's lying personally. But each to their own. He'll never leave prison. If his detailed story and personality is one big lie, then he is the most consistent fucking liar I've ever listened to. But that's how they get ya, right? He sits around all day and studies peoples' psychology? Between robbing convenient stores and living in a tent he is polishing up on his guru skills...
Right they do. And according to V what is especially infuriating to them is the empathic aspects of human connection because that is something they are not privy to. They will never understand how that feels and they know it. But they observe it and mimic it to their advantage. In fact this is how and why many psychopaths rise to positions of great power in the world. Hitler of course is a prime example. He manipulated huge numbers of humans to do his bidding. I'm sure they were convinced he cared about them.
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the bizzle
doin' thangs
Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,702
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 2 hours, 50 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14993976 - 08/28/11 09:17 PM (8 months, 27 days ago) |
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well, I'm not buying it
Quote:
And according to V what is especially infuriating to them is the empathic aspects of human connection because that is something they are not privy to. They will never understand how that feels
tell me how you enjoy Helter Skelter
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TheMushroomJesus said:
"Doesnt that actually make the most sense? These are intelligent beings that are capable of creating anything, including what you call 'science'. And the suicide cults are a sacrifice to these intelligent beings."
"If any of you knew about Applewhite you would know that he represented JESUS..as we all do. He believed he and all of us were jesus to the point he would kill himself to get the message out...while your here..typing away pointless thoughts on a website pretending to make a difference, when in reality, you will never come close to making as much of a difference as even Applewhite."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: the bizzle]
#14993998 - 08/28/11 09:20 PM (8 months, 27 days ago) |
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What exactly aren't you buying and why?
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14994670 - 08/29/11 12:34 AM (8 months, 27 days ago) |
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Here's a clip (at 1:13 seconds) where Manson addresses racism, equality, hate, and cultural identities that depend on separateness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=jFgbpkhP-js#t=70s
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14995066 - 08/29/11 04:50 AM (8 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
I have spent a lot of time researching Charles Manson, and have watched many interviews.
From everything that I have observed, it seems to me that he is highly self-aware, very creative, honest, intuitive and empathetic. His words usually transcend the banalities of political and ecological ideas; they resemble those of a sage, a witty trickster, or a spiritualist. My opinion of these types of people has been influenced by noticing a similar spark in the dispositions of Joseph Campbell, Carl Jung, Alan Watts, Robert A. Wilson, Terence McKenna, Tim Leary, Ram Dass, etc. You guys know the drill.
Without delving into conspiracy theories, it is still very easy to imagine why this person would be incarcerated and depicted in major media outlets in film and print as a murderer, and an utter psychotic. The way our society shuns these types of "Manson" truth-bringers is indicative of our crooked value system - it's a sad sign of the times.
www.allthewayalive.com is an interesting site worth checking out.
Thoughts?
Dojnt ever forget that this Charles Manosn was a very manipulative individual that influenced one of the most gruesome mass murders!! If you choose to look at people who do such as that as your mentors then that is a deep problem as far as I can see.
Edited by zzripz (08/29/11 04:51 AM)
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: zzripz]
#14995078 - 08/29/11 05:01 AM (8 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
If you choose to look at people who do such as that as your mentors
Through my limited interaction with him in videos and print, I've never heard him say anything evil or unreasonable. Even remotely "harsh" suggestions are usually rhetoric used deliberately to prove a point. Otherwise he's very spiritual.
Besides, the whole world is my mentor. If we only allow ourselves to be influenced by rainbows and pixie dust, we are only opening our hearts to part of the world - which is wholly interdependent and should be understood as such, from the smile of an infant to the knife of rapist.
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 25,441
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 7 hours, 47 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14995085 - 08/29/11 05:05 AM (8 months, 27 days ago) |
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So I guess you're going to completely ignore the fact that Manson is a mass murderer and try and focus on your belief that he's not a racist so that you can justify your love for him. But you can't even cling to that with Manson. Besides the fact that he has a fucking swastika in the middle of his forehead and openly declares his love for Hitler and the Nazi movement, he says little things all the time that reveal his racism. On the album Charles Manson Speaks, in reference to rap music he says "And then you got all these god damn monkeys jumpin' up and down singin' all this rap music...."
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Mp3 of the month: The Shy Guys - Black Lightning Light
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: zzripz]
#14995136 - 08/29/11 05:36 AM (8 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
The Whale said:
I have spent a lot of time researching Charles Manson, and have watched many interviews.
From everything that I have observed, it seems to me that he is highly self-aware, very creative, honest, intuitive and empathetic. His words usually transcend the banalities of political and ecological ideas; they resemble those of a sage, a witty trickster, or a spiritualist. My opinion of these types of people has been influenced by noticing a similar spark in the dispositions of Joseph Campbell, Carl Jung, Alan Watts, Robert A. Wilson, Terence McKenna, Tim Leary, Ram Dass, etc. You guys know the drill.
Without delving into conspiracy theories, it is still very easy to imagine why this person would be incarcerated and depicted in major media outlets in film and print as a murderer, and an utter psychotic. The way our society shuns these types of "Manson" truth-bringers is indicative of our crooked value system - it's a sad sign of the times.
www.allthewayalive.com is an interesting site worth checking out.
Thoughts?
Dojnt ever forget that this Charles Manosn was a very manipulative individual that influenced one of the most gruesome mass murders!! If you choose to look at people who do such as that as your mentors then that is a deep problem as far as I can see.
Then I have deep problems. (but you already knew that from reading my posts) Like I said I can still benefit from the things he says even IF he doesn't believe them himself and is using them to manipulate.
My god man it is very likely that everyone on some level is doing this with their words. I know cause I spent much of my life in sales. Most are just not psychopathic criminals.
I have real empathy for CM. I do believe he was a creation of the dysfunctions within our culture. That does not however exonerate him from responsibility for his heinous deeds. Prisons are rotten places imo and almost no one is rehabilitated there, but he does not belong on the streets.
I would prefer that people made their judgments of him by really knowing most or all the facts of his life or the case (which I admit I did not and so was fooled by the little I did know) rather than going by the media presented circus around all this. If we don't then they control us which is much more frightening to me than a single famous psychopath.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Learyfan]
#14995146 - 08/29/11 05:41 AM (8 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Learyfan said:
So I guess you're going to completely ignore the fact that Manson is a mass murderer and try and focus on your belief that he's not a racist so that you can justify your love for him.
1. He didn't murder anybody.
2. I'm only posting about racism because yourself and a few others are approaching his evilness from various angles, and racism just happened to be one of them. I initially wanted to focus on his shamanic/prophetic qualities, but a shit storm is always inevitable when you're speaking about things people have already made up their mind about.
3. I don't "love" Manson. But I'm capable of intelligent thought capacity beyond the "he's a racist murderer" mentality.
Quote:
Besides the fact that he has a fucking swastika in the middle of his forehead and openly declares his love for Hitler and the Nazi movement, he says little things all the time that reveal his racism.
Actually, he doesn't. And although I've posted several clips of him saying he feels equally about the world's races, I've yet to see anything yet about this supposed racism. Regarding the swastika, I've already addressed this before, as did Manson in his interviews. It's either a symbol of religiosity around the world or its the biggest symbol of fear, which he uses to either behold the contempt of society, or to remove himself from it altogether. And again, it was initially an "x."
Quote:
On the album Charles Manson Speaks, in reference to rap music he says "And then you got all these god damn monkeys jumpin' up and down singin' all this rap music...."
It's mostly true - and such an opinion isn't racist.
But what he was referring to is the simian quality of rap music, which is cultivated by the alpha males (hollywood, big corporations, and polished thug personas on mass media outlets) who release a bunch of shitty and easy to understand music that exploits our natural tendency towards competition and ego games.
Hip hop music can be a way to protest the system and represent the struggles of the lower class, but too often it's a way to talk about big asses, gold chains, guns, money, hot cars, and other monkey swinging bullshit. If anything you're the racist for thinking he's referring to blacks when he says monkeys. He's talking about dumb ass humans.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14995163 - 08/29/11 05:54 AM (8 months, 27 days ago) |
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It's interesting that I made a thread on my enlightenment and had many people convinced by my words alone that there was at least a possibility that I was enlightened.
Quite and achievement for a lowly old guy on these boards especially since most here have in the past found me to be a major enemy to mysticism. When I started agreeing with what they were saying and saying it myself in my somewhat intelligent and articulate ways I was believed.
Due to the dysfunction of my childhood and my intelligence level I found that my knack as a public speaker could get me most of the things I was after, from girls to money. And it has worked for the most part.
I know without a doubt I could go on the road and become a guru. I know all the basics and I know how not to get myself into trouble by saying too much. I have some of the tendencies of a psychopath but am not one full on. I'm a very very good liar and have almost never been caught in a lie. In my life I have been able to talk most anyone into anything if I set my mind to it. Fortunately I have empathy and am basically a "good" guy. Otherwise I'd be in politics and running your life right now.
So take this into account when judging CM and get all the facts you can about him. Not just the web sites that like him and defend him.
If you want I can try and get you a reading list from V.
btw I'm not saying I'm not enlightened or awakened. That's for me to know and you to find out.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,297
Loc: Americas
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14995700 - 08/29/11 09:02 AM (8 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Fronnis said:
I agree his ideas are not that bad, but for what he is known to have committed, I would prefer him dead than to be praised for being anything but a murderer with a high IQ.
Who did he murder? No one.
He's not any different from a murderer, however, as he shot and intended to kill Bernard Crowe. (allegedly this dude had been ripped off and made a threat against the freaky little "family", but I doubt Manson's actions were a reasonable response)
Manson seems to often be cast in an unfairly flattering light as someone who never actually did anything but got blamed for everything. Seems to me this is mostly because the most famous incident didn't directly involve Manson much- the Tate murders.
Either way, he shot someone himself, and restrained people in the other murders, and I believe the evidence linking him to the bizzare motivations of the other perpetrators is sound, as well as establishing that he gave the direct orders the perpetrators were following in several cases.
I'm a bit mystified by how anyone could see this guy as very wise. Seems like its just another example of someone trying to identify with someone they think society has demonized unfairly, to actualize their feelings of 'fairness' and independence from cultural forces, convention.
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backfire16
Registered: 04/29/10
Posts: 34
Loc: ON, Canada 
Last seen: 1 month, 23 days
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: johnm214]
#14995898 - 08/29/11 09:59 AM (8 months, 27 days ago) |
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Seems like he had a lot of respect for women 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: johnm214]
#14995902 - 08/29/11 10:01 AM (8 months, 27 days ago) |
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Maybe you should read the rest of the thread and some of your questions will be answered.
btw I was only speaking of the situation in question. I don't know if he's done other murders in other situations.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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LayinUp
Faith
Registered: 04/14/11
Posts: 1,922
Loc: Inside the mycelium
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14995914 - 08/29/11 10:03 AM (8 months, 27 days ago) |
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manson is defective software - nothing more or less
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Escape the box.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: johnm214] 1
#14995921 - 08/29/11 10:05 AM (8 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
I'm a bit mystified by how anyone could see this guy as very wise.
I think he was pretty intelligent/wise..if he wasn't, then he wouldn't have been able to successfully manipulate others IMO.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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airclay
pabst & jazz
Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 515
Loc: DFW
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Poid]
#14996272 - 08/29/11 11:15 AM (8 months, 27 days ago) |
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I helped put out a record manson was on recently. He does indeed have a family that runs his affairs for him, the current leader goes by Greywolf, I also worked w/ his 'girlfriend' Star who did the artwork. I've never spoken to him personally, but his side of the record is pretty incoherent ramblings. It was recorded on an iphone during visits.
He also did that artwork on the back and it's a pretty good visual representation of his tracks and just how he seems most the time, pretty all over the place.
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anything above is a lie that I am in no part of.
Trade List
Dallas Texas DIY punk and hardcore
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: airclay]
#14996394 - 08/29/11 11:44 AM (8 months, 27 days ago) |
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It's amazing how many people here have some kind of association with this guy.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14996614 - 08/29/11 12:24 PM (8 months, 27 days ago) |
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Manson was a crazy murderer. I'm convinced now. You guys have changed my life around. Thanks for pointing out my delusions. I'll stick to Osho and Krishnamurti. Their smile is more convincing.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14996684 - 08/29/11 12:37 PM (8 months, 27 days ago) |
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Nobody is perfect.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14996819 - 08/29/11 12:56 PM (8 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Manson was a crazy murderer. I'm convinced now. You guys have changed my life around. Thanks for pointing out my delusions. I'll stick to Osho and Krishnamurti. Their smile is more convincing.
Well at least you would be less likely to be murdered.
And relax about all this. Many of the things he said are truth imo. Stick to the words and forget who said them.
In fact I'm going to start a thread about this.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14996836 - 08/29/11 12:58 PM (8 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Stick to the words and forget who said them.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Poid]
#14997154 - 08/29/11 01:53 PM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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Manson was as serious as this post.
Very, very serious! Because of course it all matters.
Show me the truth, show me the light.
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matukuul
seasoned traveler
Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 82
Loc: babylon's nightmare
Last seen: 6 months, 22 days
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14997198 - 08/29/11 02:00 PM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Manson was a crazy murderer. I'm convinced now. You guys have changed my life around. Thanks for pointing out my delusions. I'll stick to Osho and Krishnamurti. Their smile is more convincing.
Was that sarcasm?
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"Your vision will become clear when you can look into your own heart.
Who looks outside dreams; who looks inside awakens."
-Carl Jung
"Free yourself from mental slavery,
none but ourselves can free our mind.."
-Bob Marley
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Icelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: matukuul]
#14997275 - 08/29/11 02:16 PM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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It was butt hurt.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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oojijimoo
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14997428 - 08/29/11 02:41 PM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Manson was as serious as this post.
Very, very serious! Because of course it all matters.
Show me the truth, show me the light.
it's a little weird to be obsessed with somebody like charles manson...uhhh he is obviously fucked in the head. He got what was coming to him. That doesn't mean our society is good for how it treated him. But all the same it was his own karma working itself out...his own very very fucked up karma
i think this image explains his situation quite well..
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14997505 - 08/29/11 02:56 PM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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Whale, I promise you. When you're out of high school and experience more life, you will not see Manson in such a positive light. Yes, some of the things he says are true. But that does not make him a good person to look up to.
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Mp3 of the month: The Shy Guys - Black Lightning Light
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matukuul
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Learyfan]
#14997545 - 08/29/11 03:07 PM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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Wait, you really look up to him?
--------------------
"Your vision will become clear when you can look into your own heart.
Who looks outside dreams; who looks inside awakens."
-Carl Jung
"Free yourself from mental slavery,
none but ourselves can free our mind.."
-Bob Marley
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Learyfan]
#14997548 - 08/29/11 03:07 PM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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I say, play it safe and only look up to Icelander.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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airclay
pabst & jazz
Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 515
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Poid]
#14997602 - 08/29/11 03:18 PM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Stick to the words and forget who said them.
Who said it plays equal if not a greater part in the meaning of what someone says than the words on definition alone.
It's like saying "take everything out of context and make your own meanings"
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anything above is a lie that I am in no part of.
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Poid
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander] 1
#14997619 - 08/29/11 03:22 PM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
It was butt hurt.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Icelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: airclay]
#14997978 - 08/29/11 04:34 PM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
airclay said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Stick to the words and forget who said them.
Who said it plays equal if not a greater part in the meaning of what someone says than the words on definition alone.
It's like saying "take everything out of context and make your own meanings"
What you just said makes no sense to me? Could you rephrase?
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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airclay
pabst & jazz
Registered: 05/13/11
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14998163 - 08/29/11 05:10 PM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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The person speaking the words puts the meaning to what they are saying. With out taking into account who is speaking (background, ideas, beliefs), you're just taking the context away. It's an arrangement of words where you're putting a blindfold on and playing pin the tail on the definition.
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anything above is a lie that I am in no part of.
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Kickle
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: airclay]
#14998218 - 08/29/11 05:21 PM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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Even with all the context in the world you still have to rely on your own personal understanding. Which amazingly enough is the same source of understanding as with any amount of context.
You might know that the context is that the speaker is a killer. But unless you've killed before, what does that context even represent? It represents whatever you as an individual deem it to represent. May as well represent nothing because it can represent anything.
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airclay
pabst & jazz
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Kickle]
#14998364 - 08/29/11 05:46 PM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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Sort of true. But I would like to use all information available to decide for myself what the context represents. I don't trust opinions/ideas based on half the evidence (the lesser half, being the meaning of a quote on word definition alone). Basically it allows for a larger set of tools when trying to sort truth from bullshit.
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anything above is a lie that I am in no part of.
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Kickle
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: airclay]
#14998384 - 08/29/11 05:50 PM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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there is no truth and no bullshit because we will never have all the evidence and the evidence itself is always biased by our interpretations as well as what is selected as evidence in the first place. Just my opinion. Although there is evidence that suggests humans have very selective attention
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blewmeanie
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Kickle]
#14998417 - 08/29/11 05:54 PM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Learyfan said:
Whale, I promise you. When you're out of high school and experience more life, you will not see Manson in such a positive light. Yes, some of the things he says are true. But that does not make him a good person to look up to.
Quote:
Kickle said:
Even with all the context in the world you still have to rely on your own personal understanding. Which amazingly enough is the same source of understanding as with any amount of context.
You might know that the context is that the speaker is a killer. But unless you've killed before, what does that context even represent? It represents whatever you as an individual deem it to represent. May as well represent nothing because it can represent anything.
Well, if he's telling you all about what a peaceful guy he is, then it tells you he's a liar.
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: blewmeanie]
#14998500 - 08/29/11 06:07 PM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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"The war to end all wars"
I think anyone who tells me they're peaceful is a liar so it really doesnt tell me personally much.
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Icelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Kickle]
#14998940 - 08/29/11 07:28 PM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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Even with all the context in the world you still have to rely on your own personal understanding. Which amazingly enough is the same source of understanding as with any amount of context.
Like the thread I stared with quotes without allowing for who wrote it, the meaning is there and maybe more powerful because it's not diluted by our pro or con subjective attitude toward the author.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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backfire16
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14999853 - 08/29/11 10:58 PM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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Is this stuff about Manson, believing Helter Skelter was about a race war, true? Any sources besides wiki.
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Icelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: backfire16]
#14999930 - 08/29/11 11:22 PM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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No it's not about that.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Learyfan]
#15000138 - 08/30/11 12:42 AM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
It was butt hurt.
Quote:
Learyfan said:
Whale, I promise you. When you're out of high school and experience more life, you will not see Manson in such a positive light.
I love how this has turned to personalisms.
Thread is pretty much over.
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Icelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#15000181 - 08/30/11 01:17 AM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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For you.
I'm still into talking about Charlie. I've really enjoyed this thread. We're either at the end or in a lull.
Anyway sorry, I take the personalism back. (can one do that? )
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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airclay
pabst & jazz
Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 515
Loc: DFW
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15000599 - 08/30/11 06:06 AM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Even with all the context in the world you still have to rely on your own personal understanding. Which amazingly enough is the same source of understanding as with any amount of context.
Like the thread I stared with quotes without allowing for who wrote it, the meaning is there and maybe more powerful because it's not diluted by our pro or con subjective attitude toward the author.
You'd have to rely on your personal understanding anyway, you rely on your own personal understanding for everything. This I'm not opposing. But what's being missed here is the way quotes can be grossly misinterpreted, far passed what the speaker ever meant. You can take a random selection of a couple words, say 5 words said in the same order by both Hitler and Gandhi, without any mention of the speaker you could easily misquote them saying it has the same meaning based on word definitions alone. We all know that the chances of these two men saying the same selection of words has very small chance of having the same meaning.
I understand the idea of the context being solely based on the individuals understanding, but to take it this far; far enough to say the speaker of a quote has no bearing on the meaning and should be left off is a little much.
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anything above is a lie that I am in no part of.
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Icelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: airclay]
#15000608 - 08/30/11 06:11 AM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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I hear what you are saying and agree in the realm of an individual instance, like say, deciding if you want to join up with Charlie, but I was speaking in a Universal sense (which I did not make clear) as to one who has the personal power to make use of words as a vehicle towards action.
An example would be the works of Carlos Castaneda. Obviously to me at least these were works of fiction yet I have used the ideas presented to change my life dramatically. Were I concerned about subjective judgement of CC I might have discarded his work due to the fact that he claimed these works were completely true.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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airclay
pabst & jazz
Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 515
Loc: DFW
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15000619 - 08/30/11 06:15 AM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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I can understand that.
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anything above is a lie that I am in no part of.
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zzripz
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: airclay]
#15000801 - 08/30/11 07:38 AM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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I just wish some here who to me dont get it would dig PATTERNS. Ie., a vicious dog gone bite ya-----it is rare when they get that look they wont, so dont let them near a child. THAT is understanding patterns
Same with a misogynst like--surprise surprise-- Manson was/is (see video above). Misogynists are nearly always very violent people. Look what happened around this person.
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b0red5tiff
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: zzripz] 3
#15000846 - 08/30/11 07:52 AM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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manson transcended and is beyond good & evil. his enlightenment crosses common understanding of ethics & morality. he's the perfect god for a new age we're in.
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Trading random Cubensis prints for stuff, PM me!
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Icelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: b0red5tiff]
#15000858 - 08/30/11 07:56 AM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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Now I'm scared. 
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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LunarEclipse
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15000860 - 08/30/11 07:57 AM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I hear what you are saying and agree in the realm of an individual instance, like say, deciding if you want to join up with Charlie, but I was speaking in a Universal sense (which I did not make clear) as to one who has the personal power to make use of words as a vehicle towards action.
An example would be the works of Carlos Castaneda. Obviously to me at least these were works of fiction yet I have used the ideas presented to change my life dramatically. Were I concerned about subjective judgement of CC I might have discarded his work due to the fact that he claimed these works were completely true.
So the con men that are CM and CC told you a story and you believed them. This is not to say con men don't have useful stories to tell in fact they gain your confidence by their stories. The churches do the same thing. It's all good buy the books pay your tithes they got you either way...
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Don't worry be happy.
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Icelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: LunarEclipse]
#15000896 - 08/30/11 08:10 AM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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No I said I didn't believe them. Read and comprehend.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: b0red5tiff]
#15001280 - 08/30/11 10:16 AM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
b0red5tiff said:
manson transcended and is beyond good & evil. his enlightenment crosses common understanding of ethics & morality. he's the perfect god for a new age we're in.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
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The Whale
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Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: zzripz]
#15001289 - 08/30/11 10:17 AM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
I just wish some here who to me dont get it would dig PATTERNS. Ie., a vicious dog gone bite ya-----it is rare when they get that look they wont, so dont let them near a child. THAT is understanding patterns
Same with a misogynst like--surprise surprise-- Manson was/is (see video above). Misogynists are nearly always very violent people. Look what happened around this person.
I cannot comprehend what you are trying to explain. Your sentences are fragmented and the logic doesn't flow.
What about patterns?
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#15001416 - 08/30/11 10:41 AM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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I interpreted that as saying Manson exhibits a (behavioral?) pattern of someone who is a misogynist. Like when a dog exhibits certain signs before attacking and you can learn to read the signs before it happens and save yourself some trouble.
I'm curious what misogynistic tendencies zzripz sees in manson.
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Sly Stone
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 595
Loc: Never get out of the boat
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: backfire16] 1
#15001533 - 08/30/11 11:09 AM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
backfire16 said:
Is this stuff about Manson, believing Helter Skelter was about a race war, true? Any sources besides wiki.
Read the trial testimony of Paul Watkins.
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/manson/mansontestimony-w.html
Quote:
"During your association with Charles Manson, did he frequently discuss Helter Skelter with you?"
"Constantly."
"He used the word 'Helter Skelter' constantly?"
"I wouldn't go so far as to say constantly. He did not say, 'Helter Skelter, Helter Skelter, Helter Skelter.' But he did quite a bit, yes, it seemed to be the main topic."
On How Helter Skelter Would Start
"There would be some atrocious murders; that some of the spades from Watts would come up into the Bel-Air and Beverly Hills district and just really wipe some people out, just cut bodies up and smear blood and write things on the wall in blood, and cut little boys up and make parents watch. So, in retaliation-this would scare; in other words, all the other white people would be afraid that this would happen to them, so out of their fear they would go into the ghetto and just start shooting black people like crazy. But all they would shoot would be the garbage man and Uncle Toms, and all the ones that were with Whitey in the first place. And underneath it all, the Black Muslims would-he would know that it was coming down."
"Helter Skelter was coming down?"
"Yes. So, after Whitey goes in the ghettoes and shoots all the Uncle Toms, then the Black Muslims come out and appeal to the people by saying, 'Look what you have done to my people.' And this would split Whitey down the middle, between all the hippies and the liberals and all the up-tight piggies. This would split them in the middle and a big civil war would start and really split them up in all these different factions, and they would just kill each other off in the meantime through their war. And after they killed each other off, then there would be a few of them left who supposedly won."
"A few of who left?"
"A few white people left who supposedly won. Then the Black Muslims would come out of hiding and wipe them all out."
"Wipe the white people out?"
"Yes. By sneaking around and slitting their throats."
"Did Charlie say anything about where he and the Family would be during this Helter Skelter?"
"Yes. When we was [sic] in the desert the first time, Charlie used to walk around in the desert and say-you see, there are places where water would come up to the top of the ground and then it would go down and there wouldn't be no more water, and then it would come up again and go down again. He would look at that and say, 'There has got to be a hole somewhere, somewhere here, a big old lake.' And it just really got far out, that there was a hole underneath there somewhere where you could drive a speedboat across it, a big underground city. Then we started from the 'Revolution 9' song on the Beatles album which was interpreted by Charlie to mean the Revelation 9. So-"
"The last book of the New Testament?"
"Just the book of Revelation and the song would be 'Revelations 9: So, in this book it says, there is a part about, in Revelations 9, it talks of the bottomless pit. Then later on, I believe it is in 10."
"Revelation 10?"
"Yes. It talks about there will be a city where there will be no sun and there will be no moon."
"Manson spoke about this?"
"Yes, many times. That there would be a city of gold, but there would be no life, and there would be a tree there that bears twelve different kinds of fruit that changed every month. And this was interpreted to mean-this was the hole down under Death Valley."
"Did he talk about the twelve tribes of Israel?"
"Yes. That was in there, too. It was supposed to get back to the 144,000 people. The Family was to grow to this number."
"The twelve tribes of Israel being 144,000 people?"
"Yes."
"And Manson said that the Family would eventually increase to 144,000 people?"
"Yes."
"Did he say when this would take place?"
"Oh, yes. See, it was all happening simultaneously. In other words, as we are making the music and it is drawing all the young love to the desert, the Family increases in ranks, and at the same time this sets off Helter Skelter. So then the Family finds the hole in the meantime and gets down in the hole and lives there until the whole thing comes down."
"Until Helter Skelter comes down?"
"Yes."
"Did he say who would win this Helter Skelter?"
"The karma would have completely reversed, meaning that the black men would be on top and the white race would be wiped out; there would be none except for the Family."
"Except for Manson and the Family?"
"Yes."
"Did he say what the black man would do once he was all by himself?"
"Well, according to Charlie, he would clean up the mess, just like he always has done. He is supposed to be the servant, see. He will clean up the mess that he made, that the white man made, and build the world back up a little bit, build the cities back up, but then he wouldn't know what to do with it, he couldn't handle it."
"Blackie couldn't handle it?"
"Yes, and this is when the Family would come out of the hole, and being that he would have completed the white man's karma, then he would no longer have this vicious want to kill."
"When you say 'he,' you mean Blackie?"
"Blackie then would come to Charlie and say, you know, 'I did my thing, I killed them all and, you know, I am tired of killing now. It is all over.' And Charlie would scratch his fuzzy head and kick him in the butt and tell him to go pick the cotton and go be a good nigger, and he would live happily ever after."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Sly Stone]
#15001578 - 08/30/11 11:19 AM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
"Did he talk about the twelve tribes of Israel?"
"Yes. That was in there, too. It was supposed to get back to the 144,000 people. The Family was to grow to this number."
"The twelve tribes of Israel being 144,000 people?"
"Yes."
I just copied an excerpt as an example.
This style of communication and voice just doesn't intuitively match anything I've heard from Manson. He doesn't display preferences for historical allegories like symbolic numbers or tribes of Israel; he lacks even direct mentionings of the "Family." The Family itself, in many analyses I've read, is highly exaggerated and used as a condition against him in court - when the reality is it was never organized to any real degree, and was mostly a rotating collection of friends and outcasts.
I would like to see a clip or read a direct testimony from Manson regarding "Helter Skelter." It seems completely fabricated.
Everything I've heard of him is very esoteric and removed from racial nonsense.
Robert Anton Wilson, in his interviews off the album "RAW Explains Everything or Bob Exposes His Ignorance," when questioned about LSD as a device for brainwashing dismissed it as a failure and cited the CIA experiments as evidence. He proposed his own anecdote afterwards, noting that a person on LSD is more likely to detect efforts of persuasion and manipulation, rather than becoming more susceptible.
If we are discussing the probability that he intentionally influenced weak-minded individuals to do his murderous bidding, it would make more sense that he further exploited the results of this in his interviews in prison. He would be able to spread his message and seek further revenge by admitting the crime and then detailing why he did it. Furthermore, according to some here he is a megalomaniac: in which case we should expect him to take as much credit as possible for his extraordinary "manipulative powers." A big ego needs big validation. Instead, Manson admits he is nobody but a reflection. He has no reason to deny anything, and every reason to claim responsibility - and yet we never witness this.
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Sly Stone
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 595
Loc: Never get out of the boat
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Sly Stone] 1
#15001618 - 08/30/11 11:31 AM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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LaBianca crime scene photo - written in blood on the fridge
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Sly Stone]
#15001638 - 08/30/11 11:36 AM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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That could mean anything.
If I go and murder a family and write a rock and roll song name on the wall, what does that mean?
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#15001641 - 08/30/11 11:37 AM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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If innocent of many of the accusations against him, is Manson guilty of choosing the wrong people to become family with?
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Sly Stone
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 595
Loc: Never get out of the boat
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Sly Stone] 1
#15001673 - 08/30/11 11:46 AM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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Manson trial testimony of Linda Kasabian
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/manson/mansontestimony-k.html
Quote:
[At the LaBianca home]
...."Did he tell you to do anything with respect to this wallet after he handed it to you?"
"Yes, he did."
"What did he tell you?"
"He told me to take the change out of the wallet and to wipe off the fingerprints, and then-this is while we were driving off-and we drove a few blocks, and he told me that he would stop, and he wanted me to throw it out on the sidewalk."
"Well, when he gave you those instructions about wiping the fingerprints off the wallet, did you do that?"
"Yes, I did."
"Did you remove the change from the wallet?"
"Yes, I did."
"What did you do with the change?"
"I believe I put it in the glove compartment."
...."Did he tell you why he wanted you to throw the wallet out of the window?"
"Yes, he did. He said he wanted a black person to pick it up and use the credit cards so that the people, the establishment would think it was some sort of an organized group that killed these people."
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Icelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#15001726 - 08/30/11 12:02 PM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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noting that a person on LSD is more likely to detect efforts of persuasion and manipulation, rather than becoming more susceptible.
This has been true in my experience.
If we are discussing the probability that he intentionally influenced weak-minded individuals to do his murderous bidding, it would make more sense that he further exploited the results of this in his interviews in prison. He would be able to spread his message and seek further revenge by admitting the crime and then detailing why he did it. Furthermore, according to some here he is a megalomaniac: in which case we should expect him to take as much credit as possible for his extraordinary "manipulative powers." A big ego needs big validation. Instead, Manson admits he is nobody but a reflection. He has no reason to deny anything, and every reason to claim responsibility - and yet we never witness this.
Psychopaths and sociopaths like to stay beneath the radar. He also gets a lot of validation through being "enlightened" and more awake and aware than the Man and culture in general and would certainly feed a Messiah complex. It's hard to say for sure what he's thinking and working this out. And it's even possible that he holds our some hope of eventual parole. Anything is possible here.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Comcouveflor
Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 339
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15002624 - 08/30/11 03:09 PM (8 months, 25 days ago) |
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Dudes, he wsa at peace. Charles Manson is whatever you want to make of that peace; that peace was simply saying you're playing games with it. You are that peace.
Wake up men, wake up!
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Icelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Comcouveflor] 1
#15002720 - 08/30/11 03:31 PM (8 months, 25 days ago) |
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What?
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Comcouveflor
Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 339
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15002734 - 08/30/11 03:34 PM (8 months, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
What?
can you deduce from what I wrote?
Edited by Comcouveflor (08/30/11 03:35 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 67,602
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Comcouveflor]
#15002787 - 08/30/11 03:47 PM (8 months, 25 days ago) |
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Nothing important. That's why I asked. And I rarely watch random you tube vids.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Comcouveflor] 1
#15002830 - 08/30/11 03:55 PM (8 months, 25 days ago) |
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Here's more enlightened behavior from Charlie. CLICK HERE to read paperwork filed by Miriam DeCarlo, before the murders, stating that Manson beat her. Check out the third paper down. Danny DeCarlo punched Miriam in the face and she fell to the ground. After this woman gets punched in the face and falls to the ground, Charlie takes over. Manson is "suspect #2".......
"...suspect #2 began to kick her about the body and then he dragged her from the room by her hair."
What an enlightened human being!
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Mp3 of the month: The Shy Guys - Black Lightning Light
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Learyfan
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Learyfan]
#15002864 - 08/30/11 04:02 PM (8 months, 25 days ago) |
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Let's not forget the Gary Hinman murder. Yet again, Charlie shows up, does damage and then leaves so that he isn't around while his family does his dirty work.
Quote:
As soon as he arrived, Manson began yelling at Gary, Hinman responded by screaming back at him, telling Charlie to leave, and to take the others with him. Charlie raised his sword and quickly struck Hinman in the head, slicing off Gary's left ear. Manson and Davis immediately left in one of Hinman's cars while the others stayed behind. Mary and Susan stitched up his ear with dental floss while Gary, who didn't believe in violence, just kept on asking them to leave. It all ended on the 27th when Beausoleil finally killed Hinman, stabbing him in the chest twice. Bobby, Susan, and Mary took turns holding a pillow over his face. Beausoleil then wrote "POLITICAL PIGGY" and drew a pawn print on the wall in Hinman's blood in an attempt to make authorities think the Black Panthers committed the murder. Gary died on the floor with his prayer beads in hand, chanting "Nam Myo Ho Renge Kyo Nam Myo Ho Renge Kyo", the chant of his faith.
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Mp3 of the month: The Shy Guys - Black Lightning Light
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b0red5tiff
NWO Disinformation Agent
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Learyfan]
#15002871 - 08/30/11 04:04 PM (8 months, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Learyfan said:
Here's more enlightened behavior from Charlie. CLICK HERE to read paperwork filed by Miriam DeCarlo, before the murders, stating that Manson beat her. Check out the third paper down. Danny DeCarlo punched Miriam in the face and she fell to the ground. After this woman gets punched in the face and falls to the ground, Charlie takes over. Manson is "suspect #2".......
"...suspect #2 began to kick her about the body and then he dragged her from the room by her hair."
What an enlightened human being!
so there's a guide to being a proper normal enlightened being? gurus aren't allowed to kick people etc?
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Trading random Cubensis prints for stuff, PM me!
Edited by b0red5tiff (08/30/11 04:04 PM)
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: b0red5tiff]
#15002890 - 08/30/11 04:09 PM (8 months, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
b0red5tiff said:
so there's a guide to being a proper normal enlightened being? gurus aren't allowed to kick people etc?
No, a lot of spiritually enlightened people kick a woman while she's laying on the ground and then drag her by her hair after she had just been punched in the face by another man.
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Mp3 of the month: The Shy Guys - Black Lightning Light
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Comcouveflor
Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 339
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander] 1
#15002891 - 08/30/11 04:10 PM (8 months, 25 days ago) |
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I'd like to hear it anyway. You ask because your visionary capacity doesn't cut it. You seem humble, or humbled, so I'll provide further words on the subject.
The "background" against which sound is, is silence. Manson's freedom or "teaching" is in silence, in this sense. All this press, debate, words that have gone over him are just sound. He's saying that the pretension that any of that is real is a game that he is playing with himself: he's in fact saying that he, Charles Manson himself, is only sound. But to be self-aware, he must be what contrasts with it, silence. Well, if you entertain this view for a bit, it becomes obvious that the whole of existence is sound and we are all silence, or beyond both or precisely the union of those opposites.
Charles Manson is a con-game the media were playing with themselves, he was their reflection and aware of this. He was entirely responsible for his life. Peace.
Edited by Comcouveflor (08/30/11 04:10 PM)
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Comcouveflor
Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 339
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Comcouveflor]
#15002910 - 08/30/11 04:15 PM (8 months, 25 days ago) |
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And I'm not saying his behaviour was correct, if he did or not kill this that and the other or if the media were into conspiring against him - I don't speak in those terms, i.e., nothing of what I said is incongruent with any of the behaviour he was convicted by. He was where he wanted to be, the space-time he wanted to be.
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Icelander
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Posts: 67,602
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Comcouveflor]
#15003142 - 08/30/11 05:07 PM (8 months, 25 days ago) |
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This was all covered earlier in the thread. But thanks for clarifying.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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b0red5tiff
NWO Disinformation Agent
Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 17,629
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Learyfan]
#15003375 - 08/30/11 05:57 PM (8 months, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Learyfan said:
Quote:
b0red5tiff said:
so there's a guide to being a proper normal enlightened being? gurus aren't allowed to kick people etc?
No, a lot of spiritually enlightened people kick a woman while she's laying on the ground and then drag her by her hair after she had just been punched in the face by another man.
i ask again: is there a guide to being a proper normal enlightened being? gurus aren't allowed to kick people etc?
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Trading random Cubensis prints for stuff, PM me!
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: b0red5tiff]
#15003635 - 08/30/11 06:50 PM (8 months, 25 days ago) |
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I would put him to Kant's moral theory, that any action must be applicable as a universal principle. If everybody acted like Charlie Manson, the world would be srsly fucked up (more so I'd argue). I agree though that he was probably highly illuminated in a sense.
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: b0red5tiff]
#15004122 - 08/30/11 08:42 PM (8 months, 25 days ago) |
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You can't be serious. You guys have to be trolling.
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Mp3 of the month: The Shy Guys - Black Lightning Light
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
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Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Learyfan] 2
#15004861 - 08/31/11 12:44 AM (8 months, 25 days ago) |
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I'm starting to think you're trolling by posting "The Shroomery" pics in every post you make. What is the point in that other than ascribing to habit? We all know we're at the Shroomery. It seems like a waste of time.
Anyhow, regarding your example of his violence and battery charge, it is definitely possible. In one interview he said, "I can even be a razor blade if you get too close to me." Of course we all can. I've been violent before (though, admittedly, I never dragged or kicked a woman). I would be interested in more details - like the motive - since those scanned police report papers weren't that clear to me.
This may indicate that Manson can be, or has been, violent. True. It still doesn't suggest he was a cult leader or encouraged murder. Also, let's not forget Osho's reputation. He has a crazy history and yet people worldwide still acknowledge his spiritual messages.
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The Whale
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15004876 - 08/31/11 12:52 AM (8 months, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Psychopaths and sociopaths like to stay beneath the radar. He also gets a lot of validation through being "enlightened" and more awake and aware than the Man and culture in general and would certainly feed a Messiah complex. It's hard to say for sure what he's thinking and working this out. And it's even possible that he holds our some hope of eventual parole. Anything is possible here.
But, see, it's hard to "stay beneath the radar" when you're spending your life in prison. He isn't being manipulative I don't believe. His eccentric responses may garner some bizarre reactions from people - especially the reporters - but beneath this is actual content. If he is hoping to be perceived as enlightened by exposing the Man and our culture, his message is mostly falling on deaf ears, and he knows it. Although we're here discussing the details of his case and the possibility of him being awake, I think it's safe to say the majority of people (and reporters) find his messages to be nonsense and himself to be insane, however intriguing.
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matukuul
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale] 1
#15005148 - 08/31/11 03:50 AM (8 months, 25 days ago) |
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So I just came to realize the full implications of the title of your thread, and while I think you may be on to something that is indeed possible with your thoughts on the matter, you really shouldn't get too caught up in the idea because there is no way you could ever really know for sure one way or the other. There are definitely better things to be concerned about.
Furthermore, I think crediting him as a prophet and a shaman is a gross misconception. You also seem to be avoiding the notion that he shows definite signs of racism, and is actually on record for beating a woman before the murders which you think he is supposedly framed for, but if it happened before the murders then it happened at a time when those who would be interested in framing him would have no motive to do so yet.. Or would they? Are they that meticulous in their planning?! Who knows? Nobody probably ever will. So it's best to just know that it's possible he's not the evil man that he has been portrayed to be, but that it's also possible that he is, and leave it at that.
It's funny because I've actually had some thoughts similar to yours and even listen to some of his music and ideas on youtube when I had those thoughts... But quickly came to the conclusion I just typed out for you, and I would never argue 11 pages on the Shroomery or any other forum to bother and try to do what you have just done.. Which is very possibly wasted a large amount of your time defending and idolizing a raging sociopath.
There are also so many other people out there who have had the same sort of ideas which are much much more refined and eloquent. If you're really interested in such kinds of ideas, then I suggest you go find those people.
I will say though that regardless of whether he was framed or not, the powers that be sure capitalized on the event as much as they could. Who knows how many things like this were going down back then, maybe they just chose this particular instance to sensationalize because it had the most shock value.
I think the reason people like you and me and probably many of us here would like to believe that he was framed, and really a good guy, is because we don't want to think that the ideas and drugs (lsd) that we love so much could really be used as successful tools of manipulation by a narcissistic lunatic.. It's kind of heartbreaking to think of..
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"Your vision will become clear when you can look into your own heart.
Who looks outside dreams; who looks inside awakens."
-Carl Jung
"Free yourself from mental slavery,
none but ourselves can free our mind.."
-Bob Marley
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: oojijimoo]
#15005164 - 08/31/11 03:59 AM (8 months, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Robert Anton Wilson, in his interviews off the album "RAW Explains Everything or Bob Exposes His Ignorance," when questioned about LSD as a device for brainwashing dismissed it as a failure and cited the CIA experiments as evidence. He proposed his own anecdote afterwards, noting that a person on LSD is more likely to detect efforts of persuasion and manipulation, rather than becoming more susceptible.
This might be true in the case of encountering someone unfamiliar who is attempting to do more overt manipulation, but if you've already fallen under the figurative spell of someone who you look up to as a guru and wise man, LSD may very well help to cement your beliefs and adoration for your group's leader, and particularly when a common theme of psychedelic trips is to lose one's ego: what better way to do it than to surrender one's control to someone else?
Also, Manson gave some of his followers Belladonna, which is known to induce trance-like states and increase suggestibility. http://www.charliemanson.com/documents/testimony-watson-1.htm
Quote:
guruu said:
I would put him to Kant's moral theory, that any action must be applicable as a universal principle.
Kant's categorical imperative fails in a number of crucial situations, such as the case when an axe murderer shows up on your doorstep and asks the location of his intended prey. Since lying is prohibited according to Kant, you would have no choice but to tell the truth to the killer. 
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#15005309 - 08/31/11 05:50 AM (8 months, 25 days ago) |
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Here's Manson admitting instructing the killers to "leave something witchy" at the scene where his family was going . He means do something outrageous and shocking with the slaughtered bodies of those innocent people. The girls wrote words on the walls in blood.
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Mp3 of the month: The Shy Guys - Black Lightning Light
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Icelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#15005359 - 08/31/11 06:05 AM (8 months, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Psychopaths and sociopaths like to stay beneath the radar. He also gets a lot of validation through being "enlightened" and more awake and aware than the Man and culture in general and would certainly feed a Messiah complex. It's hard to say for sure what he's thinking and working this out. And it's even possible that he holds our some hope of eventual parole. Anything is possible here.
But, see, it's hard to "stay beneath the radar" when you're spending your life in prison. He isn't being manipulative I don't believe. His eccentric responses may garner some bizarre reactions from people - especially the reporters - but beneath this is actual content. If he is hoping to be perceived as enlightened by exposing the Man and our culture, his message is mostly falling on deaf ears, and he knows it. Although we're here discussing the details of his case and the possibility of him being awake, I think it's safe to say the majority of people (and reporters) find his messages to be nonsense and himself to be insane, however intriguing.
Well he's in prison as involved in mass murder. It's unrealistic to think he's ever going to have a large following. If I was in prison and I could convince a few people I was a cool guy and get some media attention now and then and have people visit me, fall in love with me, converse with me by mail and think me enlightened, I'd likely do it. And I couldn't hope for more.
There is no ultimate way either of us will know CM or if he is content. It's all best guess.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Learyfan]
#15005794 - 08/31/11 08:49 AM (8 months, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Learyfan said:
Here's Manson admitting instructing the killers to "leave something witchy" at the scene where his family was going . He means do something outrageous and shocking with the slaughtered bodies of those innocent people. The girls wrote words on the walls in blood.
No. He said, "IF you're going to do something..."
And then says, "It's like saying, 'do it well'...."
I give the same advice to suicide bombers. At least rally for cheaper condiments at the grocery store, or female willingness to try anal, or bomb yourself for the liberation of the veil industry.
Do it well, indeed.
Still not murder or encouragement thereof.
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zzripz
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Kickle]
#15006184 - 08/31/11 10:39 AM (8 months, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
I interpreted that as saying Manson exhibits a (behavioral?) pattern of someone who is a misogynist. Like when a dog exhibits certain signs before attacking and you can learn to read the signs before it happens and save yourself some trouble.
I'm curious what misogynistic tendencies zzripz sees in manson.
see the video above where he says how women should be quiet and not speak for themselves. Typical misogyny. He also beat women, and we know what else he influenced dont we??
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oojijimoo
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: zzripz]
#15006310 - 08/31/11 10:59 AM (8 months, 25 days ago) |
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he's fully evolved dawg u just dont get it
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The Whale
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Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: oojijimoo]
#15006320 - 08/31/11 11:03 AM (8 months, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
see the video above where he says how women should be quiet and not speak for themselves. Typical misogyny. He also beat women, and we know what else he influenced dont we??
Yes, he was misogynistic in that video. But let's not forget here at the Shroomery we have "Dry Smash Her Shit Box," so let's not get too uptight about an uneducated man in the 1960s who believed the same thing as most of his peers during that era.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#15006447 - 08/31/11 11:32 AM (8 months, 25 days ago) |
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I agree here. I think it's pointless to say that he has the same attitudes today because he had them 40+ years ago or we're all in trouble or will be.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 25,441
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 7 hours, 47 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#15007493 - 08/31/11 02:54 PM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
No. He said, "IF you're going to do something..."
And then says, "It's like saying, 'do it well'...."
I give the same advice to suicide bombers. At least rally for cheaper condiments at the grocery store, or female willingness to try anal, or bomb yourself for the liberation of the veil industry.
Do it well, indeed.
Still not murder or encouragement thereof.
But this thread is about your assertion that Manson is a prophet and a shaman. My point is that if I were a prophet and a shaman and one of my friends said "Hey, we're going to go murder a bunch of innocent people", I would try and talk them out of it or call the cops. I wouldn't say "Oh really? Well do a bunch of fucked up shit with their bodies when you're finished brutally murdering them".
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Mp3 of the month: The Shy Guys - Black Lightning Light
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b0red5tiff
NWO Disinformation Agent
Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 17,629
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Learyfan] 1
#15007535 - 08/31/11 03:02 PM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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your limited view of humanity isn't letting you accept the fact that enlightenment by definition transcends common understandings of morals and ethics. so just because you feel what he did was ugly or absurd may stem from the fact you are on some lower level of enlightenment.
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Trading random Cubensis prints for stuff, PM me!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Learyfan] 2
#15007683 - 08/31/11 03:27 PM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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He's the prophet of fucked up shit.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 25,441
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 7 hours, 47 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: b0red5tiff]
#15007931 - 08/31/11 04:14 PM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
b0red5tiff said:
your limited view of humanity isn't letting you accept the fact that enlightenment by definition transcends common understandings of morals and ethics. so just because you feel what he did was ugly or absurd may stem from the fact you are on some lower level of enlightenment.
You guys should check into John Wayne Gacy and The Boston Strangler. Those guys were REALLY enlightened.
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Mp3 of the month: The Shy Guys - Black Lightning Light
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Learyfan] 1
#15007944 - 08/31/11 04:15 PM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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Osama had to be enlightened...
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Poid] 2
#15008016 - 08/31/11 04:29 PM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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I don't think I want to be considered enlightened anymore. 
That didn't last long.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Sly Stone
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 595
Loc: Never get out of the boat
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15008120 - 08/31/11 04:54 PM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I don't think I want to be considered enlightened anymore.
That didn't last long.
Once you're gone, you can't come back.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Sly Stone]
#15008242 - 08/31/11 05:18 PM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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blewmeanie
Sativa Cyborg
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 27,596
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale] 1
#15008534 - 08/31/11 06:09 PM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Quote:
see the video above where he says how women should be quiet and not speak for themselves. Typical misogyny. He also beat women, and we know what else he influenced dont we??
Yes, he was misogynistic in that video. But let's not forget here at the Shroomery we have "Dry Smash Her Shit Box," so let's not get too uptight about an uneducated man in the 1960s who believed the same thing as most of his peers during that era.
So then, he hasn't transcended cultural conditioning?
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: blewmeanie]
#15008573 - 08/31/11 06:15 PM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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matukuul
seasoned traveler
Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 82
Loc: babylon's nightmare
Last seen: 6 months, 22 days
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: matukuul]
#15008818 - 08/31/11 06:58 PM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Indeed.
Quote:
matukuul said:
I think the reason people like you and me and probably many of us here would like to believe that he was framed, and really a good guy, is because we don't want to think that the ideas and drugs (lsd) that we love so much could really be used as successful tools of manipulation by a narcissistic lunatic.. It's kind of heartbreaking to think of..
No thoughts on this, Whale?
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"Your vision will become clear when you can look into your own heart.
Who looks outside dreams; who looks inside awakens."
-Carl Jung
"Free yourself from mental slavery,
none but ourselves can free our mind.."
-Bob Marley
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: matukuul]
#15008891 - 08/31/11 07:15 PM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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I've known drugs can go either way for a long time. I just like the idea that people can work their way out of really deep shit and wake up and save their life so to speak. However I'm not convinced Manson has done that. It would be pretty cool if he has.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: matukuul]
#15010550 - 09/01/11 03:58 AM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
This might be true in the case of encountering someone unfamiliar who is attempting to do more overt manipulation, but if you've already fallen under the figurative spell of someone who you look up to as a guru and wise man, LSD may very well help to cement your beliefs and adoration for your group's leader, and particularly when a common theme of psychedelic trips is to lose one's ego: what better way to do it than to surrender one's control to someone else?
Also, Manson gave some of his followers Belladonna, which is known to induce trance-like states and increase suggestibility. http://www.charliemanson.com/documents/testimony-watson-1.htm
Good points, I think it is possible, though highly improbable. The military, in my opinion, has much more cognitive credibility and suggestive influence than the perceived persona of a guru. Even in this scenario, British Soldiers (for instance), were incapable of even following basic orders and ended up laughing at the commands. I'm sure you've seen the film clip.
Quote:
Learyfan said:
But this thread is about your assertion that Manson is a prophet and a shaman. My point is that if I were a prophet and a shaman and one of my friends said "Hey, we're going to go murder a bunch of innocent people", I would try and talk them out of it or call the cops. I wouldn't say "Oh really? Well do a bunch of fucked up shit with their bodies when you're finished brutally murdering them".
After this response, I'm ignoring you in hopes that your pointless inclination to include "Shroomery" pics finds its catharsis in another thread.
"I ain't got no magical powers and mystical trips and all that kind of crap. It's kind of silly."
Charles Manson
In my opinion: being a prophet or a shaman is not equivalent to being perfectly moral or delivering good news for all the world's children. A good guru, for example, allows people to discover the truth for themselves. Instruction should come in the form of being a raft guide that channels the current and allows the individual to swim their way into the mind state they possessed from the beginning. Shattering illusions is the job of the guru, not replacing the ones we already have.
Quote:
matukuul said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Indeed.
Says the cheerleaders.
Quote:
matukuul said:
I think the reason people like you and me and probably many of us here would like to believe that he was framed, and really a good guy, is because we don't want to think that the ideas and drugs (lsd) that we love so much could really be used as successful tools of manipulation by a narcissistic lunatic.. It's kind of heartbreaking to think of..
No thoughts on this, Whale?
It's not heartbreaking to think of because I don't hold such a belief. Psychedelics are mostly amplifiers of consciousness, not revelers of truth. As molecular agents they don't possess or imbue any information that is not already contained in the body or mind.
Quote:
blewmeanie said:
Quote:
The Whale said:
Quote:
see the video above where he says how women should be quiet and not speak for themselves. Typical misogyny. He also beat women, and we know what else he influenced dont we??
Yes, he was misogynistic in that video. But let's not forget here at the Shroomery we have "Dry Smash Her Shit Box," so let's not get too uptight about an uneducated man in the 1960s who believed the same thing as most of his peers during that era.
So then, he hasn't transcended cultural conditioning?
I don't think he has entirely transcended it, but rather that he possesses an ability to point out to which extent our mind is composed of cultural values. Manson also speaks English, wears Western clothing, and sings folk music, so he's obviously not beyond culture altogether.
This is also part of his message. The kids who did the murders were products of society, just as he - as a criminal - is also a product of that society. So, where do you place the blame?
If we say, 'ON THE INDIVIDUAL! THEY'RE RESPONSIBLE, OF COURSE!' then how can we convict Charlie of anything?
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 25,441
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 7 hours, 47 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#15010611 - 09/01/11 04:47 AM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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There's only one true way for me to prove my point. Whale, I'm going to pay someone to murder your family just to see if you hold me responsible in any way. I have this feeling that you will.
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Mp3 of the month: The Shy Guys - Black Lightning Light
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
Last seen: 14 hours, 35 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: b0red5tiff] 1
#15010676 - 09/01/11 05:38 AM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
b0red5tiff said:
your limited view of humanity isn't letting you accept the fact that enlightenment by definition transcends common understandings of morals and ethics. so just because you feel what he did was ugly or absurd may stem from the fact you are on some lower level of enlightenment.
youz trollin
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http://soundcloud.com/ufhwhomp like music?
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Learyfan]
#15010683 - 09/01/11 05:43 AM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Learyfan said:
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#15010802 - 09/01/11 06:58 AM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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I don't think he has entirely transcended it, but rather that he possesses an ability to point out to which extent our mind is composed of cultural values. Manson also speaks English, wears Western clothing, and sings folk music, so he's obviously not beyond culture altogether.
This is also part of his message. The kids who did the murders were products of society, just as he - as a criminal - is also a product of that society. So, where do you place the blame?
I agree. We cannot escape our culture on some level. And as I said I fully agree with his message as presented here. It's a message that had a great impact on me when I first heard Charlie say it. It suck like glue so to speak and I could see how it had been true in my own life also.
That doesn't mean Charlie didn't kill or encourage it in others or doesn't bear responsibility for his actions if he did. It does explain how he came to be in the position he was in and shows how we create a world where it will continue to happen while we (the culture) pretend to be innocent of any culpability in the matter.
His message is profound no matter what he has done or why he's sharing it imo.
I do personally think he is a psychopath and that happened though nurture first with his parents and they when the system threw him away as trash when he was a very young lost and abandoned lad.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale] 1
#15010811 - 09/01/11 06:59 AM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Quote:
Learyfan said:
Why the fuck does it matter what his sig pic is? I never even noticed it until you pointed it out and has nothing to do with his posts in this discussion.
Or am I missing something?
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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b0red5tiff
NWO Disinformation Agent
Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 17,629
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: oojijimoo] 1
#15010967 - 09/01/11 07:55 AM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
guruu said:
Quote:
b0red5tiff said:
your limited view of humanity isn't letting you accept the fact that enlightenment by definition transcends common understandings of morals and ethics. so just because you feel what he did was ugly or absurd may stem from the fact you are on some lower level of enlightenment.
youz trollin
not. just saying some of you guys need to get off your ego.
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Trading random Cubensis prints for stuff, PM me!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: b0red5tiff] 1
#15010995 - 09/01/11 08:01 AM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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get off yours first and show us how it's done.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
b0red5tiff
NWO Disinformation Agent
Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 17,629
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15011322 - 09/01/11 09:44 AM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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im doing it, brah. telling you that you should just not stay in your own pov and take a look at the larger guru picture.
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Trading random Cubensis prints for stuff, PM me!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: b0red5tiff]
#15011419 - 09/01/11 10:07 AM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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If you read my posts you'll see I'm taking a middle path on all this.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
Last seen: 14 hours, 35 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: b0red5tiff] 1
#15011737 - 09/01/11 11:16 AM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
b0red5tiff said:
Quote:
guruu said:
Quote:
b0red5tiff said:
your limited view of humanity isn't letting you accept the fact that enlightenment by definition transcends common understandings of morals and ethics. so just because you feel what he did was ugly or absurd may stem from the fact you are on some lower level of enlightenment.
youz trollin
not. just saying some of you guys need to get off your ego.
well i agree with everything you're saying in principle but to apply it to manson...that nigga was FUCKED and you do not want to end up like him. I do not understand how a soul can behave so violently...this universe is truly mysterious. I mean, Abraham was supposed to kill his son and that proved him in God's eyes. Sometimes the actions of one are totally incomprehensible to the outside. All I know is this body mind that is typing right now will never attempt to commit the atrocities that manson brought into manifestation. Or, at least I sincerely hope as such.
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http://soundcloud.com/ufhwhomp like music?
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15012046 - 09/01/11 12:18 PM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I agree. We cannot escape our culture on some level. And as I said I fully agree with his message as presented here. It's a message that had a great impact on me when I first heard Charlie say it. It suck like glue so to speak and I could see how it had been true in my own life also.
That doesn't mean Charlie didn't kill or encourage it in others or doesn't bear responsibility for his actions if he did. It does explain how he came to be in the position he was in and shows how we create a world where it will continue to happen while we (the culture) pretend to be innocent of any culpability in the matter.
His message is profound no matter what he has done or why he's sharing it imo.
I do personally think he is a psychopath and that happened though nurture first with his parents and they when the system threw him away as trash when he was a very young lost and abandoned lad.
All very well said, Ice. I can tell you are considering the directions all this is coming from.
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
The Whale said:
Quote:
Learyfan said:
Why the fuck does it matter what his sig pic is? I never even noticed it until you pointed it out and has nothing to do with his posts in this discussion.
Or am I missing something?
It represents a habitual state of mind, one which is antithetical to progress in any debate or conversations that has the potential to change our ideas.
To my mind, posting a picture at the end of your comment is not a problem, insofar as it is used merely as a personal "sign off" or identifier, or even as a supplementary image. But how we can we come into an argument and expect to rationalize a viewpoint that is disparate from our own, when our own mental composition and faculties are ones based on habituation?
What else would this signify? What possible profundity is to be found in repeating the same symbolic logo over and over? What is it, a commercial?
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15012052 - 09/01/11 12:20 PM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
If you read my posts you'll see I'm taking a middle path on all this.
You changed your perspective mid-thread. It was a 180, as we discussed.
Is this the middle path?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale] 1
#15012092 - 09/01/11 12:31 PM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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His sig pic is not germain to the discussion. I put up pics occasionally and leave them for long periods. I personally don't think it's saying much about the mind set of the poster in general.
I have to say it seems like you are using it to discredit his pov. Especially when you say you will ignore his input based on that.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
b0red5tiff
NWO Disinformation Agent
Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 17,629
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: oojijimoo]
#15012093 - 09/01/11 12:32 PM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
guruu said:
Quote:
b0red5tiff said:
Quote:
guruu said:
Quote:
b0red5tiff said:
your limited view of humanity isn't letting you accept the fact that enlightenment by definition transcends common understandings of morals and ethics. so just because you feel what he did was ugly or absurd may stem from the fact you are on some lower level of enlightenment.
youz trollin
not. just saying some of you guys need to get off your ego.
well i agree with everything you're saying in principle but to apply it to manson...that nigga was FUCKED and you do not want to end up like him. I do not understand how a soul can behave so violently...this universe is truly mysterious. I mean, Abraham was supposed to kill his son and that proved him in God's eyes. Sometimes the actions of one are totally incomprehensible to the outside. All I know is this body mind that is typing right now will never attempt to commit the atrocities that manson brought into manifestation. Or, at least I sincerely hope as such.
if you dont understand then its a matter of your personal level of enlightenment, as said before. a soul doesnt act violently, its the co-operation of mind and body.
--------------------
Trading random Cubensis prints for stuff, PM me!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#15012101 - 09/01/11 12:34 PM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
If you read my posts you'll see I'm taking a middle path on all this.
You changed your perspective mid-thread. It was a 180, as we discussed.
Is this the middle path?
Eventually yes. As you can see I'm still thinking about this subject and coming to my own pov as much as possible. Plus it was only a 180 on part of the subject of Charlie. And I'm always open to changing my mind again.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15012141 - 09/01/11 12:42 PM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
His sig pic is not germain to the discussion. I put up pics occasionally and leave them for long periods. I personally don't think it's saying much about the mind set of the poster in general.
Where else does the desire to post it come from? It's from the same source that you and I are compelled to continue discussing this. It represents a part of his mind. He wishes to communicate something. But, ironically, this particular expression conveys more about himself. It is for the same reason that he habitually posts "Today in Psychedelic History" threads regularly, or ascribes to a commited name like "Leary Fan" - which is stagnant in time and disposition. What if I came here with a user name called "Manson Fan"? Wouldn't it seem more likely that I would be inclined towards a particular perspective?
This is putting it lightly.
Quote:
I have to say it seems like you are using it to discredit his pov. Especially when you say you will ignore his input based on that.
Because I want a dynamic response. I'm willing to be skeptical and convinced he is an incompetent murder; but I've yet to observe equal zeal on his behalf.
I haven't discredited anyone's POV. I'm just tired of repeating myself.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#15012223 - 09/01/11 01:03 PM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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Of course he has a POV he's somewhat committed to. Doesn't mean he or anyone else here, including you will not change directions any minute.
I'm a pretty good example of that these days in fact.
I'm surprised you can't see how we are all alike in degree here. We all are invested in our POV whether we admit it or not.
You will be discounting all most all debates here including guys like Deff who is obviously of Buddhist inclination. He's not much if anymore likely to change directions when presented with compelling evidence than you or I or anyone else here.
In all my years here I've never seen anyone who has an easy time changing directions.
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
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Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15012247 - 09/01/11 01:08 PM (8 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Of course he has a POV he's somewhat committed to. Doesn't mean he or anyone else here, including you will not change directions any minute.
I'm a pretty good example of that these days in fact.
I'm surprised you can't see how we are all alike in degree here. We all are invested in our POV whether we admit it or not.
You will be discounting all most all debates here including guys like Deff who is obviously of Buddhist inclination. He's not much if anymore likely to change directions when presented with compelling evidence than you or I or anyone else here.
In all my years here I've never seen anyone who has an easy time changing directions.
Very good points. It's not easy at all to change our point of views. And it is much more likely that we will take whatever measures necessary to preserve them.
One reason I think this may be is that our reality maps are composed of holistic gestalts. They aren't assembled in a piecemeal fashion, but are "mushed together" and more semantically fluid. So, when one view point is threatened by change, it would necessitate an entire shift within our entire mental state.
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zzripz
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: oojijimoo] 1
#15012494 - 09/01/11 02:11 PM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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Damn right. it amazes me how people forget the victims. there are photos online of what his 'Family' did to other human beings. Go look at them. Take a psychedelic and look at them. FEEL them. They are you. Doing that you will learn vastly more than listening to the ravings of a psycho. If he had any real remorse he would shut the fuck up out of respect for those murdered and their loved ones who have had to live with that horror. But as he was BEFORE those murders he carries ON being.
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: zzripz]
#15012561 - 09/01/11 02:22 PM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
Damn right. it amazes me how people forget the victims. there are photos online of what his 'Family' did to other human beings. Go look at them. Take a psychedelic and look at them. FEEL them. They are you. Doing that you will learn vastly more than listening to the ravings of a psycho. If he had any real remorse he would shut the fuck up out of respect for those murdered and their loved ones who have had to live with that horror. But as he was BEFORE those murders he carries ON being.
You carry on being despite the fact Syria, at this very moment, is executing its innocent civilians just for disagreement with the regime. And yet you carry on.
Let's save the world together, Daniel Son. We'll fail, but along the way we'll discover ourselves.
Take my hand.
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#15012763 - 09/01/11 03:02 PM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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We should all put ourselves in jail and silently accept our crimes for being entwined with such a mass murderer as life. Indiscriminate and without mercy I tell ya, a real remorseless son of a bitch!
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Kickle]
#15012791 - 09/01/11 03:08 PM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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Inter-being.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependent_origination
Thich Nhat Hanh introduced me to the concept many moons ago. The ugly stuff hasn't looked so ugly since then.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#15012795 - 09/01/11 03:09 PM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Quote:
matukuul said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Indeed.
Says the cheerleaders.
Why the personalism? 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (09/01/11 03:14 PM)
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Poid]
#15012820 - 09/01/11 03:15 PM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
The Whale said:
Quote:
matukuul said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Indeed.
Says the cheerleaders.
Why the personalisms?
For the same reason that a bee hive responds when you trim the hedges near their honey. Don't stoop low to competitiveness and you'll be less likely to receive similar reflections. You haven't contributed anything here, and yet you felt compelled to post a "burn" emoticon?
And I didn't resort to personalisms. The context you posted under was one of cheerleading, being that you are encouraging from the sidelines without ascribing to any view yourself. It's like vicariously clapping from the bleachers.
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#15012832 - 09/01/11 03:18 PM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Inter-being.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependent_origination
Thich Nhat Hanh introduced me to the concept many moons ago. The ugly stuff hasn't looked so ugly since then.
still looks ugly to me, just in a broader sense. life is suffering style ugly
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#15012842 - 09/01/11 03:19 PM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
You haven't contributed anything here...
Yes I have, actually, you just either chose to ignore my contributions, or missed them altogether.
Quote:
The Whale said:
And I didn't resort to personalisms.
Yes you did, you were name-calling.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Kickle]
#15012851 - 09/01/11 03:22 PM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
still looks ugly to me, just in a broader sense. life is suffering style ugly
There is suffering in life, yes, I agree.
Sometimes it's ugly, sometimes it's not so ugly.
The "broader sense" of our perception, I think, helps to illuminate moments that would otherwise be opaque and confusing. Suffering, after all, arises mostly from misunderstanding.
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#15012890 - 09/01/11 03:31 PM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Moses had for quite some time been seeking the promised land. On this particular day he and his traveling companion stopped to sit on a rock. Moses asks his companion for food, and the companion informs Moses that they had left the food at their previous stop. Moses turns to his companion and says, "You have followed me without fail for a very long time. It is now my turn. Will you not lead me?"
The companion responds: "I will lead if you will obey."
Moses said: "If Allah wills, you shall find me patient; I shall not in anything disobey you."
He [The other] said: "If you are bent on following me, you must ask no questions about anything till I myself speak to you concerning it."
The two set forth, but as soon as they embarked, Moses' companion bored a hole in the bottom of a ship.
"A strange thing you have done!" exclaimed Moses.
"Is it to drown her passengers that you have bored a hole in her?"
"Did I not tell you," he replied, "that you would not bear with me?"
"Pardon my forgetfulness," said Moses. "Do not be angry with me on this account."
They journeyed on until they fell in with a certain youth.
Moses' companion slew him, and Moses said: "You have killed an innocent man who has done no harm. Surely you have committed a wicked crime."
"Did I not tell you," he replied, "that you would not bear with me?"
Moses said: "If ever I question you again, abandon me; for then I should deserve it."
They travelled on until they came to a certain city. They asked the people for some food, but the people declined to receive them as their guests. There they found a wall on the point of falling down. The other raised it up, and Moses said: "Had you wished, you could have demanded payment for your labours."
"Now the time has arrived when we must part," said the other. "But first I will explain to you those acts of mine which you could not bear with patience. "Know that the ship belonged to some poor fishermen. I damaged it because in the rear was a king who was taking every ship by force. "As for the youth, his parents both are true believers, and we feared lest he should plague them with his wickedness and unbelief. It was our wish that their Lord should grant them another in his place, a son more righteous and more filial.
"As for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city whose father was an honest man. Beneath it their treasure was buried. Your Lord decreed in His mercy that they should dig out their treasure when they grew to manhood. What I did was not done by caprice. That is the meaning of the things you could not bear with in patience."
Misunderstanding seems to be why Moses was not able to bear through these scenarios with patience. But if he had understood, how would they have appeared?
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
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Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Kickle]
#15013002 - 09/01/11 03:49 PM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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How does our life appear when we consider that the universe may have existed forever, or that black holes may be older than time? My only point is that understanding profoundly alters how we feel. Our beliefs can be the prima materia that transforms us.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale] 1
#15013250 - 09/01/11 04:35 PM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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I want to thank everyone who has shared their ideas and perspectives here. I try to listen and learn from all of it and to some degree I've agreed and disagreed with everyone here.
This has been a great thread imo.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15013451 - 09/01/11 05:15 PM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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Mp3 of the month: The Shy Guys - Black Lightning Light
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Learyfan] 1
#15013495 - 09/01/11 05:23 PM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Learyfan said:
This image totally discredits everything you're saying! 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Learyfan]
#15013691 - 09/01/11 06:08 PM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: deCypher] 1
#15013703 - 09/01/11 06:11 PM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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Shamanism
Quote:
Shamans are said to treat ailments/illness by mending the soul.
To my understanding, shamans are supposed to be kind, compassionate individuals.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Poid]
#15013722 - 09/01/11 06:15 PM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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As I understand it, a shaman is someone who mediates between the spirit world and the human world; having compassion is not absolutely necessary. Those who use their powers for "evil" as known as brujos.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
Edited by deCypher (09/01/11 06:47 PM)
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: deCypher] 1
#15013777 - 09/01/11 06:24 PM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
As I understand it, a shaman is someone who mediates between the spirit world and the human world; having compassion is not absolutely necessary.
But shamans also mend people's souls (at least according to that Wikipedia article)..how can a person who does that not be compassionate?
One could also argue that his actions only seem evil according to your limited perspective; perhaps these things were necessary in the grand scheme of things to bring about a greater good.
I'd be interested in knowing his motive for being involved in the mistreatment of others..I somehow doubt that any good-will was involved on his part.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Poid] 2
#15013797 - 09/01/11 06:28 PM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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Found this passage which pertains to brujos and shamanism:
Quote:
There have been relatively few investigators who have studied the healing practices of the mestizos in the Upper Amazon. All of them — anthropologist Luis Eduardo Luna, medical anthropologist Marlene Dobkin de Ríos, and Jacques Chevalier, an expert in social anthropology and political economy — have characterized the healers they worked with as shamans. And, indeed, my teachers don Roberto Acho and doña María Tuesta have been perfectly comfortable being called — and calling themselves — chamánes. This differs markedly from the attitude of many indigenous peoples in North America, who object strongly to having their traditional healers called shamans, as a term imposed from outside by the dominant culture.
Of course, in all likelihood the term chamán has only recently been introduced into mestizo professional classifications. Mestizo healers generally call themselves not shamans but vegetalistas, curanderos, médicos, curiosos, empíricos. The term brujo, sorcerer, is today often used pejoratively, to refer to a person who uses shamanic power to harm others — for money, for revenge, or just out of spite. Don Agustin Rivas Vasquez, a mestizo shaman from Tamshiyacu, says, “Back then the word shaman wasn’t known, only now we know the word. Earlier we were all brujos, some doing good and some doing evil.” Indeed, to the extent that the term brujo connotes power, shamans may embrace it; one shaman in fact advertises himself in the newspaper, proudly, as el unico brujo que tiene pacto con el diablo, the only brujo who has made a pact with the devil.
http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2008/02/shamanic-specializations/
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: deCypher] 1
#15013889 - 09/01/11 06:44 PM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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Interesting..so I guess there is a such thing as an "evil" shaman. 
But was CM any sort of shaman at all? Did he actually "mediate between the spirit world and the human world"?
Was there any good-will involved on his part when he decided to be involved in the mistreatment/murder of others?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 25,441
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 7 hours, 47 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: deCypher]
#15014030 - 09/01/11 07:10 PM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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If Manson had your family killed, you wouldn't make excuses for him. Bottom line. From now on, before you defend this mass murderer, imagine that it's your family that he had killed.
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Mp3 of the month: The Shy Guys - Black Lightning Light
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Learyfan] 1
#15014097 - 09/01/11 07:25 PM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
But was CM any sort of shaman at all? Did he actually "mediate between the spirit world and the human world"?
I personally don't believe so.
Quote:
Poid said:
Was there any good-will involved on his part when he decided to be involved in the mistreatment/murder of others?
Who knows? I suspect Manson was an individual who was obsessed with power and control, and that the Tate-LaBianca murders were an experiment of sorts to test whether his influence had grown strong enough to make his cult members violate one of the most ingrained edicts we have in our culture: Thou Shalt Not Kill.
Quote:
Learyfan said:
If Manson had your family killed, you wouldn't make excuses for him. Bottom line. From now on, before you defend this mass murderer, imagine that it's your family that he had killed.
I don't see myself making excuses for Manson anywhere in this thread. I have, however, kept an open mind to the possibility that Manson is something other than the one-dimensional, completely psychotic and deranged lunatic that the media has painted him out to be. Not to mention you failed to address my point that prophets and shamans don't have to adhere to a specific moral code, OR my point that his actions could be simply misconstrued by your limited perspective on the matter.
At any rate I find it worrisome that you are making an appeal to gut-level emotional response here by asking me to to imagine myself being personally involved in the situation. A rational, open-minded view on the matter would consider Manson in the abstract from an unattached frame of perspective... why do you think they don't let jurors who have a personal connection to a case serve at the trial?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Learyfan] 1
#15014107 - 09/01/11 07:26 PM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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I think that is a reasonable request. I think it's important to try and feel what those murdered people felt. They were human beings doing their best to be happy. Like the rest of us.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: deCypher]
#15014135 - 09/01/11 07:32 PM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
Poid said:
But was CM any sort of shaman at all? Did he actually "mediate between the spirit world and the human world"?
I personally don't believe so.
Yeah, me neither. 
Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Was there any good-will involved on his part when he decided to be involved in the mistreatment/murder of others?
Who knows?
CM himself, of course..I'm wondering if he ever stated his motive(s).
Quote:
deCypher said:
I suspect Manson was an individual who was obsessed with power and control, and that the Tate-LaBianca murders were an experiment of sorts to test whether his influence had grown strong enough to make his cult members violate one of the most ingrained edicts we have in our culture: Thou Shalt Not Kill.
That sounds pretty likely IMO.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander] 1
#15015633 - 09/02/11 01:14 AM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I think that is a reasonable request. I think it's important to try and feel what those murdered people felt. They were human beings doing their best to be happy. Like the rest of us.
Logical fallacy:
Emotional appeal
"An appeal to emotion is a type of argument which attempts to arouse the emotions of its audience in order to gain acceptance of its conclusion."
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/emotiona.html
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b0red5tiff
NWO Disinformation Agent
Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 17,629
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Learyfan] 1
#15015829 - 09/02/11 02:19 AM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Learyfan said:
If Manson had your family killed, you wouldn't make excuses for him. Bottom line. From now on, before you defend this mass murderer, imagine that it's your family that he had killed.
imagine all the people... blah blah
none of what you have said hasn't countered the claim manson is a prophet and a shaman.
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Trading random Cubensis prints for stuff, PM me!
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zzripz
Stranger
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Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: b0red5tiff] 1
#15016141 - 09/02/11 04:49 AM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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I just wonder if all those bleating on here about stuff like 'ohh maaaan, maybe shaman-Manson maaan was doing stuff so far out maaan and for the good of all, that it s just tooo far out man for many of us to dig yeaaahhh peace and love--pass the suckkk spliff' IF YOU were faced with a bunch of psychotic hippies bursting into your chill out space and torturing and murdering your friends and then cutting your head orrrf....? How would YOU feel. Isn't that evil? isn't that utter fukin bloody curdling horror that is UNIMAGINABLE for you sat there tappin away on ya little comp?
I wonder what your 'romantic idealism' would be thinking then?
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 25,441
Loc: High pride!
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: deCypher]
#15016191 - 09/02/11 05:25 AM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
I don't see myself making excuses for Manson anywhere in this thread. I have, however, kept an open mind to the possibility that Manson is something other than the one-dimensional, completely psychotic and deranged lunatic that the media has painted him out to be.
I kept an open mind for five years when I was a kid. And I made excuses for everything he did, just like you guys are now. Until eventually I just couldn't ignore the truth any longer. The guy is a murderous con-man and doesn't care about anyone but himself.
Quote:
deCypher said:Not to mention you failed to address my point that prophets and shamans don't have to adhere to a specific moral code, OR my point that his actions could be simply misconstrued by your limited perspective on the matter.
I'm sorry, but when you guys say stuff like this, I flat out do not have any response. I'm at a loss for words. Killing is fine if someone is trying to kill you. I don't think anyone would just let someone kill them without a fight. But I just don't think 99.9% of people consider murdering completely innocent people in line with the definition of "prophet" or "shaman" or "enlightened". And again, my perspective is not limited. I've forgotten more about the Manson case than you now know about it. In fact, I think your limited perspective is why you and all of his supporters in this thread, make excuses for every evil thing he has done. Like when The Whale wanted to know the back story on the woman kicking/hair dragging incident. What the fuck? Who gives a fuck what the back story is? How am I as a rational person supposed to respond to this shit?
Quote:
deCypher said:At any rate I find it worrisome that you are making an appeal to gut-level emotional response here by asking me to to imagine myself being personally involved in the situation. A rational, open-minded view on the matter would consider Manson in the abstract from an unattached frame of perspective... why do you think they don't let jurors who have a personal connection to a case serve at the trial?
I'm a human being who cares for people. I can't be unattached. I think you want me to be unattached from my brain. Cause that's the only way I could not put myself in the shoes of those poor souls who had their lives taken away by maniacs. All of whom, by the way, are deeply sorry for and ashamed of their actions. Everyone but Manson, that is.
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Mp3 of the month: The Shy Guys - Black Lightning Light
Edited by Learyfan (09/02/11 05:34 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale] 1
#15016433 - 09/02/11 07:16 AM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
I think that is a reasonable request. I think it's important to try and feel what those murdered people felt. They were human beings doing their best to be happy. Like the rest of us.
Logical fallacy:
Emotional appeal
"An appeal to emotion is a type of argument which attempts to arouse the emotions of its audience in order to gain acceptance of its conclusion."
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/emotiona.html
I'm not buying it and this is not the debate forum. It's a valid question especially since this has stirred emotional responses on all sides.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: b0red5tiff] 1
#15016441 - 09/02/11 07:18 AM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
b0red5tiff said:
Quote:
Learyfan said:
If Manson had your family killed, you wouldn't make excuses for him. Bottom line. From now on, before you defend this mass murderer, imagine that it's your family that he had killed.
imagine all the people... blah blah
none of what you have said hasn't countered the claim manson is a prophet and a shaman.
I agree here. I think he qualifies as prophet and shaman. I also think he's a psychopath and possible murderer.
Don't want that kind of Shaman in my tribe personally but I don't want most of our prophets and shaman in my tribe.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
Edited by Icelander (09/02/11 08:47 AM)
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander] 1
#15016675 - 09/02/11 08:37 AM (8 months, 23 days ago) |
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Because he carries important spiritual messages and has a very unique and interesting mind does not mean we should accept everything he says or begin to blindly follow him as a cult leader - despite what some of you believe of us here, as though we're enamored with his evil spell. There are some people in the world who can see his unadulterated viewpoints without entangling them in his actions (whatever they may be). Further, those people may be capable of seeing that Charles Manson is not an island of unto himself but a perfect reflection of the system. Just as the desire to enact moral law and order can be found within the depths of the human psyche, so too can we find the dark half. It depends who is looking and what he or she is looking for.
Over and out. Poor horse is beat.
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
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Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale] 1
#15017961 - 09/02/11 01:20 PM (8 months, 22 days ago) |
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WHY do people NEED him and his words. Where is your innate intelligence?
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: zzripz]
#15018261 - 09/02/11 02:05 PM (8 months, 22 days ago) |
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Ask Genie about her innate intelligence.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: zzripz]
#15018444 - 09/02/11 02:44 PM (8 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
WHY do people NEED him and his words. Where is your innate intelligence?
Why did people need any of the prophets, holy men, gurus, philosophers etc. ?
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#15018463 - 09/02/11 02:49 PM (8 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Ask Genie about her innate intelligence.
Gotta love how we cherish the children. So the fucking state let her be abused again in foster care.
Sure I trust the "authorities and experts"
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 8,634
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 23 hours, 8 minutes
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 Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander] 1
#15019251 - 09/02/11 05:52 PM (8 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Fronnis said:
I agree his ideas are not that bad, but for what he is known to have committed, I would prefer him dead than to be praised for being anything but a murderer with a high IQ.
Who did he murder? No one.
True, but he dispatched his hippy-assasins. The charges were 'conspiracy to commit murder.' A lover of Nazi ideology, coupled with White supremacist delusions, psychotically-spun mythic delusion based upon said White supremacist delusion, not mention the demonic CIA deployment of LSD as a brainwashing tool, and you have a loose canon. That Charlie appeals to some disenfranchised youth youn enough to be his great grandchildren blows my mind. A pathetically abused child became the abuser, venting his spleen on society at large, his Manson-Son of man delusion is, admittedly fascinating. A self-styled Nietzschean 'Beyond Good and Evil' inflation hammers home his paranoid schizophrenia.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Boy are you here with too little too late.
Anyway I feel he's responsible in part at the very least.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 8,634
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 23 hours, 8 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15019430 - 09/02/11 06:35 PM (8 months, 22 days ago) |
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Anyway I feel he's responsible in part at the very least.
Quote:
Icelander said:
Boy are you here with too little too late.
Anyway I feel he's responsible in part at the very least.
Lateness due to a 10 day ban. Just out of touch.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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backfire16
Registered: 04/29/10
Posts: 34
Loc: ON, Canada
Last seen: 1 month, 23 days
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
#15019591 - 09/02/11 07:09 PM (8 months, 22 days ago) |
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Post deleted by KickleReason for deletion: flameeee onnnn
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: backfire16]
#15019690 - 09/02/11 07:32 PM (8 months, 22 days ago) |
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And who's puppet are you? 
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Anyway I feel he's responsible in part at the very least.
Quote:
Icelander said:
Boy are you here with too little too late.
Anyway I feel he's responsible in part at the very least.
Lateness due to a 10 day ban. Just out of touch.
YOU! A ban? In this forum? I'm impressed.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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usulpsychonaut
Hungry White Ghost
Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 552
Loc: Manawatu, New Zealand. 
Last seen: 8 hours, 52 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale] 1
#15020155 - 09/02/11 09:34 PM (8 months, 22 days ago) |
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This thread has entertained. I like the things CM says, he is a good story teller. In my life experience, I can only do what comes naturally. I get what I can, its taken me 15 years to get a yellow t-shirt, from when I first read about color therapy. If I have learned anything, that would be to want what I have, rather than to want what I don't have. I'm getting into my imagination, but my consciousness still feels like a prison. I've not been able to articulate myself at all until this year, now I can write/speak my experience, but have some difficulty with clarity or being understood. I have several minds on CMs deeds. He is a kind of healer, as in when I hear some of his comments, something resonates within me and life seems to become more meaningful.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 8,634
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 23 hours, 8 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15020203 - 09/02/11 09:43 PM (8 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Anyway I feel he's responsible in part at the very least.
Quote:
Icelander said:
Boy are you here with too little too late.
Anyway I feel he's responsible in part at the very least.
Lateness due to a 10 day ban. Just out of touch.
YOU! A ban? In this forum? I'm impressed.
Nah, Philosophy et al.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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usulpsychonaut
Hungry White Ghost
Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 552
Loc: Manawatu, New Zealand.
Last seen: 8 hours, 52 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: usulpsychonaut]
#15020652 - 09/02/11 11:23 PM (8 months, 22 days ago) |
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Hilarious how everyone here automatically assumes that Nazi and Racism is pure evil, bad, unenlightened and non-spiritual.
Sink your teeth into this National Socialist article...
http://aboutmyatt.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/ethical-ns.pdf
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: usulpsychonaut]
#15020914 - 09/03/11 12:43 AM (8 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
usulpsychonaut said:
This thread has entertained. I like the things CM says, he is a good story teller. In my life experience, I can only do what comes naturally. I get what I can, its taken me 15 years to get a yellow t-shirt, from when I first read about color therapy. If I have learned anything, that would be to want what I have, rather than to want what I don't have. I'm getting into my imagination, but my consciousness still feels like a prison. I've not been able to articulate myself at all until this year, now I can write/speak my experience, but have some difficulty with clarity or being understood. I have several minds on CMs deeds. He is a kind of healer, as in when I hear some of his comments, something resonates within me and life seems to become more meaningful.
Interesting, thanks for sharing.
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15021254 - 09/03/11 04:18 AM (8 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
zzripz said:
WHY do people NEED him and his words. Where is your innate intelligence?
Why did people need any of the prophets, holy men, gurus, philosophers etc. ?
Well that is exactly what I am asking? WHY. Alright a big reason is cause this world is SO fucked up. I had LSD experiences from being 15, and I needed some kind of guidance in years following because i ALSO had the trauma of adolescence to deal with---throw in mindblowing LSD experiences with no support culture-----and i went threw lots of books and even joined the Hare Krishnas when 17!! THE dude that hit the spt for me was---THANK God not Manson---Alan Watts after I found his book in a radical bookshop. I was DETERMINED to find some kinda book in that shop that night and I did.
So you might then after hearing that go 'see, you found your guru'...But what i have learned is not to get caught up in someones power. To trust your own questioning capacity. I wonder about Alan's fierce drinking habit---I dont make excuses for it because he was a major mentor for me. So if i had found the sayings of Manson to help me dont ya think i wouldn't question his crimes?
Why dont you look at the bad influences so as not to get caught up. OTYHERWISE someone with clever-sounding words may come along that like his family will be manipulated to do bad shit because eg 'it is beyond good and evil'--I keeps hearin that from his devotees in this thread. So EVEN EVEN though we now know the outcome of those words--- horrific mass tortures murders---yet STILL thjey preach what he preached to the 'Family'.
You should look at PATTERNS...uie., here's some. The Nazis believed in the ubermensch/superman who was 'beyond good and evi', meaning that he could do terrible deeds that would shock and sicken the 'ordinary' human, but for the 'superman' who is 'beyond human emotions' it wont affect them~~~~~~~~~THIS is where the powers that be are at,. How the fuck do you think they can sleep at night after creating wars and illegal invasions and dropping nuclear bombs on thousands of humans and all life, and the rest of the evil toxic shit they do, and influence. WHO do you think their heros are? I can tell you that like for Manson, Aleister Crowley. will be one of their prophets--he the self-proclaimed 'prophet of the New Aeon/Age/Order, and who dictated a book from an 'entity' he called Aiwaz whioch became the Book of the Law which said 'do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law', and when you read it he also encourages this 'superman' attitude of not being affected by terrible deeds like would worry the 'weak'. Seeing the connections...?
Checkout about the Moors Murderers who were this gruesome twosome UK couple, Myra Hindley, and Ian Brady, who abducted children, sexually tortured them to death, and guess who Brady's heros were?? The Nazis and their ideology of the superman, and the Marquis de Sade. Brady though that murder was the supreme pleasure. Remember that Wiki Leak footage of those soldiers playing real life video war games obliterating humans on the ground, they push their button murdering them and one voice goes 'neat!'.
If I can murder you, that means I am strong you are weak---you deserve it, and hey look people I dont-feel-a-thing cept pleasure. Hey this is FUN, AND I philsophize too and continue gettin a following, look at my charisma WUUUU. YOU could be that serial killing philsophizing beyong doog and evil psychokiller too if ya just had the will maaaan.
Of course i am hoping people realize i am darkly joking there.
The Family were in a way Mansons puppets, but they ALSO had a CHOICE not to be---to fukin QUESTION, and they chose not to!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: usulpsychonaut]
#15021493 - 09/03/11 06:23 AM (8 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
usulpsychonaut said:
This thread has entertained. I like the things CM says, he is a good story teller. In my life experience, I can only do what comes naturally. I get what I can, its taken me 15 years to get a yellow t-shirt, from when I first read about color therapy. If I have learned anything, that would be to want what I have, rather than to want what I don't have. I'm getting into my imagination, but my consciousness still feels like a prison. I've not been able to articulate myself at all until this year, now I can write/speak my experience, but have some difficulty with clarity or being understood. I have several minds on CMs deeds. He is a kind of healer, as in when I hear some of his comments, something resonates within me and life seems to become more meaningful.
I understand this very well.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: zzripz]
#15021500 - 09/03/11 06:29 AM (8 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
zzripz said:
WHY do people NEED him and his words. Where is your innate intelligence?
Why did people need any of the prophets, holy men, gurus, philosophers etc. ?
Well that is exactly what I am asking? WHY. Alright a big reason is cause this world is SO fucked up. I had LSD experiences from being 15, and I needed some kind of guidance in years following because i ALSO had the trauma of adolescence to deal with---throw in mindblowing LSD experiences with no support culture-----and i went threw lots of books and even joined the Hare Krishnas when 17!! THE dude that hit the spt for me was---THANK God not Manson---Alan Watts after I found his book in a radical bookshop. I was DETERMINED to find some kinda book in that shop that night and I did.
So you might then after hearing that go 'see, you found your guru'...But what i have learned is not to get caught up in someones power. To trust your own questioning capacity. I wonder about Alan's fierce drinking habit---I dont make excuses for it because he was a major mentor for me. So if i had found the sayings of Manson to help me dont ya think i wouldn't question his crimes?
Why dont you look at the bad influences so as not to get caught up. OTYHERWISE someone with clever-sounding words may come along that like his family will be manipulated to do bad shit because eg 'it is beyond good and evil'--I keeps hearin that from his devotees in this thread. So EVEN EVEN though we now know the outcome of those words--- horrific mass tortures murders---yet STILL thjey preach what he preached to the 'Family'.
You should look at PATTERNS...uie., here's some. The Nazis believed in the ubermensch/superman who was 'beyond good and evi', meaning that he could do terrible deeds that would shock and sicken the 'ordinary' human, but for the 'superman' who is 'beyond human emotions' it wont affect them~~~~~~~~~THIS is where the powers that be are at,. How the fuck do you think they can sleep at night after creating wars and illegal invasions and dropping nuclear bombs on thousands of humans and all life, and the rest of the evil toxic shit they do, and influence. WHO do you think their heros are? I can tell you that like for Manson, Aleister Crowley. will be one of their prophets--he the self-proclaimed 'prophet of the New Aeon/Age/Order, and who dictated a book from an 'entity' he called Aiwaz whioch became the Book of the Law which said 'do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law', and when you read it he also encourages this 'superman' attitude of not being affected by terrible deeds like would worry the 'weak'. Seeing the connections...?
Checkout about the Moors Murderers who were this gruesome twosome UK couple, Myra Hindley, and Ian Brady, who abducted children, sexually tortured them to death, and guess who Brady's heros were?? The Nazis and their ideology of the superman, and the Marquis de Sade. Brady though that murder was the supreme pleasure. Remember that Wiki Leak footage of those soldiers playing real life video war games obliterating humans on the ground, they push their button murdering them and one voice goes 'neat!'.
If I can murder you, that means I am strong you are weak---you deserve it, and hey look people I dont-feel-a-thing cept pleasure. Hey this is FUN, AND I philsophize too and continue gettin a following, look at my charisma WUUUU. YOU could be that serial killing philsophizing beyong doog and evil psychokiller too if ya just had the will maaaan.
Of course i am hoping people realize i am darkly joking there.
The Family were in a way Mansons puppets, but they ALSO had a CHOICE not to be---to fukin QUESTION, and they chose not to!
While I didn't read your diatribe here as it hurt my eyes I glanced from the side.
A certain portion of our population are sociopath and psychopath. Because of the nature of the condition they more easily gain positions of power. That's natural and who is at fault? The ones who take power or those that give it up?
The reason people need prophets and gurus and teachers is in part found in my above paragraph and in part because all knowledge is passed down through culture. You act as a teacher to some. And so unfortunately we need you.  (kidding)
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15021508 - 09/03/11 06:34 AM (8 months, 22 days ago) |
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Beyond notions of good and evil. There is a field. I'll meet you there - Rumi.
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#15021672 - 09/03/11 07:51 AM (8 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
While I didn't read your diatribe here as it hurt my eyes I glanced from the side.
A certain portion of our population are sociopath and psychopath. Because of the nature of the condition they more easily gain positions of power. That's natural and who is at fault? The ones who take power or those that give it up?
The reason people need prophets and gurus and teachers is in part found in my above paragraph and in part because all knowledge is passed down through culture. You act as a teacher to some. And so unfortunately we need you. (kidding)
Thats what I said----you have a choice to question...? Rememberrrrr? I said his 'family' CHOSE to be puppets for his evil intentions.
Ahhh I see, you put ME down and what i have to say here, and run to protect psycho Manson ? Well...geee thanks!
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,340
Last seen: 18 hours, 46 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: zzripz]
#15021676 - 09/03/11 07:53 AM (8 months, 22 days ago) |
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: zzripz]
#15021801 - 09/03/11 08:42 AM (8 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
While I didn't read your diatribe here as it hurt my eyes I glanced from the side.
A certain portion of our population are sociopath and psychopath. Because of the nature of the condition they more easily gain positions of power. That's natural and who is at fault? The ones who take power or those that give it up?
The reason people need prophets and gurus and teachers is in part found in my above paragraph and in part because all knowledge is passed down through culture. You act as a teacher to some. And so unfortunately we need you. (kidding)
Thats what I said----you have a choice to question...? Rememberrrrr? I said his 'family' CHOSE to be puppets for his evil intentions.
Ahhh I see, you put ME down and what i have to say here, and run to protect psycho Manson ? Well...geee thanks!
What, are your comprehension skills still asleep, I have no intention of defending Manson.
And I was just kidding with you. No need for defending anything.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 8,634
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: usulpsychonaut] 1
#15022064 - 09/03/11 09:39 AM (8 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
usulpsychonaut said:
Hilarious how everyone here automatically assumes that Nazi and Racism is pure evil, bad, unenlightened and non-spiritual.
Sink your teeth into this National Socialist article...
http://aboutmyatt.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/ethical-ns.pdf
Not even close to hilarious is ANY sympathy with the racial theories that are singled out as Aryan. Neither is there anything ethical, in any universal and hence fully human sense, when one relegates ethics to a particular ethnicity. That immediately sets that ethnicity apart from all others, and not in a humbling way, but in an idiom of superiority. This is exactly the accusation against so-called Zionists, who assert a similar superiority based upon their own misunderstanding of what it means to be "the Chosen People." If Zionists paid attention to the details of the scriptural writings of their own Jewish tradition, they would find that the story-line is opposite their understanding. God was supposed to have called the Hebrews a "stiff-necked" and "unfaithful" people, who were 'chosen,' DESPITE their prodigious short-comings, NOT because of some innate superiority.
Then, the Johnny-come-lately Aryans, being a "grafted in" people to the 'Chosen People of Israel,' via the Jew, Jesus, experienced a culture-wide resentment. They backed away from this religious identity, and attempted to resurrect their pagan ancestry of Nordic myth, Wotan, and the whole saga. Hitler, like his junior admirer Charles Manson, two decades later, was able to create myths, or rather deform ancient myths in a spirit of conquest, quite possibly by tapping into the portal of the Manipura Chakra, of Aryan-Hindu Yoga description. Hitler, the vegetarian, non-smoker (tobacco densifies the astral sheath), in all probability took the Svastika from the symbolism of the Manipura Chakra of power, in which there are 3 svastikas around a triangle. The Ram (the mantra RAM), Aries the Ram (Hitler's own astrological sign) belong to this Manipura portal which empowers. Only in Hitler's case, unlike the paltry few Mansonoids, he mobilized a great industrialized nation into the military-industrial complex of the Third Reich. Avalon/Woodruff's The Serpent Power, describes this portal by which one can 'destroy the world, and rebuild it in one's own image,' by the element associated with the Manipura-Ram, namely, 'Fire,' namely, by Holocaust. Will-to-Power, Nietzsche, and psychologist Alfred Adler all speak to this Manipura, from which the Indo-European root gives us the English Manipu-lation (only here, it is of cosmic proportion, where cosmos=world in meaning). It is not "Beyond Good and Evil," it is 'before,' or 'below' moral or ethical awareness.
The Anahata Heart Chakra is above, symbolizing the fully human dimension of Compassion, Love, Empathy, Sympathy, Self-sacrifice (of one's ego in all its levels, including cultural identity which is what 'national' anything indicates). A ravenous beast has no morals or codified ethics. Your article names mere militaristic values as ethics. Misuse of the word ethics. Not even utilitarian in its ethnically-limited concern. The opposite of fictional Vulcan ethics: For the good of the few, OVER the good of the many. If it's not applicable universally, it's not in any way transcendental in nature. It is entirely chthonic:
Chthonic (from Greek χθόνιος – chthonios, "in, under, or beneath the earth", from χθών – chthōn "earth";[1] pertaining to the Earth; earthy; subterranean) designates, or pertains to, deities or spirits of the underworld, especially in relation to Greek religion.  {How's about Hades?}
Based on his own bizarre cosmology (see Pauwels and Bergier's The Morning of the Magicians), and believing the Aryans to be descendants of Hyperboria; his predominating cultural-ego, deflated by WW I, became inflated by unimaginable energies to the most pathological degree. The original descendants of Hyperboria - Semites, Gypsies, and Aryans, needed 'racial cleansing.' Reducing human beings to hair for matresses, skin for leather goods, fat rendered into soap, not to mentioned reclaimed gold from teeth is clearly a demonic enterprise, and has left indelible karmic imprints on all levels of our multidimensional Reality.
No, there is no such thing as 'ethical national socialism.' Not merely oxymoronic, this combination of words is what George Orwell termed "doublethink" in 1984.
As Mammie Yokum used to say in 'Lil Abner comics, "I have spoken!"
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Markos, often times with your posts I wish we had completely automatic, in-line hyperlinks for key words and references so I could just click away wherever I wanted to plunge deeper for clarity.
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
Last seen: 14 hours, 35 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: b0red5tiff]
#15022667 - 09/03/11 11:56 AM (8 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
b0red5tiff said:
Quote:
guruu said:
Quote:
b0red5tiff said:
not. just saying some of you guys need to get off your ego.
well i agree with everything you're saying in principle but to apply it to manson...that nigga was FUCKED and you do not want to end up like him. I do not understand how a soul can behave so violently...this universe is truly mysterious. I mean, Abraham was supposed to kill his son and that proved him in God's eyes. Sometimes the actions of one are totally incomprehensible to the outside. All I know is this body mind that is typing right now will never attempt to commit the atrocities that manson brought into manifestation. Or, at least I sincerely hope as such.
if you dont understand then its a matter of your personal level of enlightenment, as said before. a soul doesnt act violently, its the co-operation of mind and body.
it's the idea that true inner faith will be comprehensible only to the individual...he is the true "hero," entirely self contained in his conviction. Sure, Manson sort of fits that bill. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with his actions...I think they were fucked up.
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blewmeanie
Sativa Cyborg
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 27,596
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: oojijimoo]
#15023094 - 09/03/11 01:35 PM (8 months, 21 days ago) |
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"One of the great dangers inherent within the practice of Magic and indeed of all the occult
arts -- is the development of an enormous egotism characterized by messianic feelings, infantile
omnipotence and the utter destruction of any capacity for effective self-criticism."
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airclay
pabst & jazz
Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 515
Loc: DFW
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
usulpsychonaut said:
Hilarious how everyone here automatically assumes that Nazi and Racism is pure evil, bad, unenlightened and non-spiritual.
Sink your teeth into this National Socialist article...
http://aboutmyatt.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/ethical-ns.pdf
Not even close to hilarious is ANY sympathy with the racial theories that are singled out as Aryan. Neither is there anything ethical, in any universal and hence fully human sense, when one relegates ethics to a particular ethnicity. That immediately sets that ethnicity apart from all others, and not in a humbling way, but in an idiom of superiority. This is exactly the accusation against so-called Zionists, who assert a similar superiority based upon their own misunderstanding of what it means to be "the Chosen People." If Zionists paid attention to the details of the scriptural writings of their own Jewish tradition, they would find that the story-line is opposite their understanding. God was supposed to have called the Hebrews a "stiff-necked" and "unfaithful" people, who were 'chosen,' DESPITE their prodigious short-comings, NOT because of some innate superiority.
Then, the Johnny-come-lately Aryans, being a "grafted in" people to the 'Chosen People of Israel,' via the Jew, Jesus, experienced a culture-wide resentment. They backed away from this religious identity, and attempted to resurrect their pagan ancestry of Nordic myth, Wotan, and the whole saga. Hitler, like his junior admirer Charles Manson, two decades later, was able to create myths, or rather deform ancient myths in a spirit of conquest, quite possibly by tapping into the portal of the Manipura Chakra, of Aryan-Hindu Yoga description. Hitler, the vegetarian, non-smoker (tobacco densifies the astral sheath), in all probability took the Svastika from the symbolism of the Manipura Chakra of power, in which there are 3 svastikas around a triangle. The Ram (the mantra RAM), Aries the Ram (Hitler's own astrological sign) belong to this Manipura portal which empowers. Only in Hitler's case, unlike the paltry few Mansonoids, he mobilized a great industrialized nation into the military-industrial complex of the Third Reich. Avalon/Woodruff's The Serpent Power, describes this portal by which one can 'destroy the world, and rebuild it in one's own image,' by the element associated with the Manipura-Ram, namely, 'Fire,' namely, by Holocaust. Will-to-Power, Nietzsche, and psychologist Alfred Adler all speak to this Manipura, from which the Indo-European root gives us the English Manipu-lation (only here, it is of cosmic proportion, where cosmos=world in meaning). It is not "Beyond Good and Evil," it is 'before,' or 'below' moral or ethical awareness.
The Anahata Heart Chakra is above, symbolizing the fully human dimension of Compassion, Love, Empathy, Sympathy, Self-sacrifice (of one's ego in all its levels, including cultural identity which is what 'national' anything indicates). A ravenous beast has no morals or codified ethics. Your article names mere militaristic values as ethics. Misuse of the word ethics. Not even utilitarian in its ethnically-limited concern. The opposite of fictional Vulcan ethics: For the good of the few, OVER the good of the many. If it's not applicable universally, it's not in any way transcendental in nature. It is entirely chthonic:
Chthonic (from Greek χθόνιος – chthonios, "in, under, or beneath the earth", from χθών – chthōn "earth";[1] pertaining to the Earth; earthy; subterranean) designates, or pertains to, deities or spirits of the underworld, especially in relation to Greek religion. {How's about Hades?}
Based on his own bizarre cosmology (see Pauwels and Bergier's The Morning of the Magicians), and believing the Aryans to be descendants of Hyperboria; his predominating cultural-ego, deflated by WW I, became inflated by unimaginable energies to the most pathological degree. The original descendants of Hyperboria - Semites, Gypsies, and Aryans, needed 'racial cleansing.' Reducing human beings to hair for matresses, skin for leather goods, fat rendered into soap, not to mentioned reclaimed gold from teeth is clearly a demonic enterprise, and has left indelible karmic imprints on all levels of our multidimensional Reality.
No, there is no such thing as 'ethical national socialism.' Not merely oxymoronic, this combination of words is what George Orwell termed "doublethink" in 1984.
As Mammie Yokum used to say in 'Lil Abner comics, "I have spoken!"
perfectly encapsulated (and expounded greatly) everything I was yelling in my head when I read the original quoted post.
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anything above is a lie that I am in no part of.
Trade List
Dallas Texas DIY punk and hardcore
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 8,634
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 23 hours, 8 minutes
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 Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: airclay]
#15023580 - 09/03/11 03:19 PM (8 months, 21 days ago) |
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Thanks!
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 8,634
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 23 hours, 8 minutes
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 Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#15023785 - 09/03/11 04:04 PM (8 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Markos, often times with your posts I wish we had completely automatic, in-line hyperlinks for key words and references so I could just click away wherever I wanted to plunge deeper for clarity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welteislehre
http://books.google.com/books?id=QaN8Ix66P-EC&pg=PA317&hl=pt-BR&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false - PP. 366-370
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule_Society
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vril
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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zzripz
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 1,792
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: blewmeanie]
#15026431 - 09/04/11 04:53 AM (8 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
blewmeanie said:
"One of the great dangers inherent within the practice of Magic and indeed of all the occult
arts -- is the development of an enormous egotism characterized by messianic feelings, infantile
omnipotence and the utter destruction of any capacity for effective self-criticism."
Very true!! Yeah it is the desire to MASTER--master the body, emotions, 'spirits', 'demons', and others, animals, nature. CONTROL!! I am not saying there cannot be benevolent magic, but not the kind coming from the patriarchs. I would say benevolent magic is more a receptiveness---a love, and wanting to work with nature, ones body, and spirits etc--not MASTER.
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
Last seen: 14 hours, 35 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: zzripz]
#15026900 - 09/04/11 08:55 AM (8 months, 21 days ago) |
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white lodge: planting seeds and using creative forces to bring your wishes into manifestation
black lodge: using destruction and removing obstacles through force to manifest your desires
neither is necessarily good or evil, although, as John lennon said, if you're talkin bout destruction you can count me out...
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deff
just relax
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 6,119
Loc: now
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: oojijimoo]
#15026918 - 09/04/11 09:02 AM (8 months, 21 days ago) |
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is that a twin peaks reference?
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: deff]
#15026928 - 09/04/11 09:06 AM (8 months, 21 days ago) |
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i'd never heard of that before, but david lynch is the business so I should have
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http://soundcloud.com/ufhwhomp like music?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: deff]
#15026958 - 09/04/11 09:17 AM (8 months, 21 days ago) |
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Best TV series ever imo.
Have you seen the movie Fire Walk With Me? It wraps it up and is fuckin tripped out imo.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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deff
just relax
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 6,119
Loc: now
Last seen: 21 minutes, 10 seconds
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15027095 - 09/04/11 09:56 AM (8 months, 21 days ago) |
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yeah twin peaks was tha shit... i've got the whole tv series on DVD 
saw fire walk with me too though it was a while ago and i forget what it was like
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CreativeCatalysts
Homo Sapien
Registered: 02/28/12
Posts: 74
Last seen: 5 days, 1 minute
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale] 1
#15914507 - 03/07/12 02:31 PM (2 months, 21 days ago) |
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Let me see if I understand you correctly:
Terence McKenna, a highly charismatic and charming intellectual, gradually turned into a psychotic and influential leader of a group of weak-minded young people. He was schizophrenic and believed one could communicate to spirits and learn about the future by taking drugs.
Where is your source that Mckenna was a schizophrenic?
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 8,634
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 23 hours, 8 minutes
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 Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#15914644 - 03/07/12 03:00 PM (2 months, 21 days ago) |
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He dosed people with LSD and brain-washed them, huh?
In fact, he did, just like the CIA did with hapless men in their MK-ULTRA experiments. I just finished reading this book yesterday: http://www.amazon.com/Long-Prison-Journey-Leslie-Houten/dp/1555534813
I liked Susan Atkins' book, Child of Satan, Child of God, much more, but it clear that Charlie suffered from all manner of psychological and physical abuse, and was already from a young age, irreparably damaged. Read Charlie's own account of childhood sexual and emotional abuse: http://www.amazon.com/Manson-His-Own-Words-Confessions/dp/0802130240/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1331160317&sr=1-1
I see an understandable cynicism that unfortunately morphs into his paranoia, delusions of grandeur and concomitant hatred of society. Of his megalomaniacal Messianic-Demonic delusion, all he said on interview was something like 'we all just pretended a little too much back then' (paraphrased). His resentment and envy of celebrities (and Jews), coupled with the fear-based hatred of Blacks, took him to the heights of paranoia which resulted in his conspiracy to commit murder. The delusional story, drawing on mythic themes using then-contemporary material (like The Beatles' White Album), is fascinating from a social science perspective, but there is nothing "honest" about this particular Antisocial Personality. Elders like myself and Icelander might remember the days of The Beatles' White Album, the televised landing on the moon, followed by Woodstock a month later, but all of the positive was punctuated by the Tate-LaBianca murders, and The Family of Charles Manson.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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yeah
Registered: 02/07/09
Posts: 353
Last seen: 1 day, 13 hours
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
but all of the positive was punctuated by the Tate-LaBianca murders, and The Family of Charles Manson.
I like how you used the word punctuated in that anecdote. It made me think of the little bit of Yin that's always gonna be in the Yang.
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I hope this is the dark part of the night which is generally just before day.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 8,634
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 23 hours, 8 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: yeah]
#15916643 - 03/07/12 08:54 PM (2 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
yeah said:
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
but all of the positive was punctuated by the Tate-LaBianca murders, and The Family of Charles Manson.
I like how you used the word punctuated in that anecdote. It made me think of the little bit of Yin that's always gonna be in the Yang.
Meanwhile, I was thinking 'punctured,' as in all the knife victims.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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oojijimoo
OouuruguruuoO
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 11,774
Loc: ATL GA
Last seen: 14 hours, 35 minutes
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woosh
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Jessica Swift
यन्त्र
Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 1,723
Loc:
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Quote:
CreativeCatalysts said:
Let me see if I understand you correctly:
Terence McKenna, a highly charismatic and charming intellectual, gradually turned into a psychotic and influential leader of a group of weak-minded young people. He was schizophrenic and believed one could communicate to spirits and learn about the future by taking drugs.
Where is your source that Mckenna was a schizophrenic?
You resurrected a thread from several months ago. I've always curious how this happens spontaneously (e.g. how the user browses older threads - by keywords, by member posts, etc.).
To answer your question, TM was extremely critical of the term schizophrenia, and was careful to note its application to any behavior that is deemed socially distorted according to the prevailing mythos of the culture. He has been recorded several times (check Youtube) linking the Western interpretation of shamanism as a type of 'schizophrenia' misnomer. The "Anti-Psychiatry" movement that took off in the 70s has also commented on the misunderstanding of mental illnesses.
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yeah
Registered: 02/07/09
Posts: 353
Last seen: 1 day, 13 hours
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: oojijimoo]
#15918319 - 03/08/12 07:06 AM (2 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
oojijimoo said:
woosh
as in something went over someone's head?
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I hope this is the dark part of the night which is generally just before day.
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Jessica Swift
यन्त्र
Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 1,723
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: yeah]
#15918376 - 03/08/12 07:24 AM (2 months, 21 days ago) |
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The fact you are confused about Whoosh is a meta-whoosh. How far down the rabbit hole are we going?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
He dosed people with LSD and brain-washed them, huh?
In fact, he did, just like the CIA did with hapless men in their MK-ULTRA experiments. I just finished reading this book yesterday: http://www.amazon.com/Long-Prison-Journey-Leslie-Houten/dp/1555534813
I liked Susan Atkins' book, Child of Satan, Child of God, much more, but it clear that Charlie suffered from all manner of psychological and physical abuse, and was already from a young age, irreparably damaged. Read Charlie's own account of childhood sexual and emotional abuse: http://www.amazon.com/Manson-His-Own-Words-Confessions/dp/0802130240/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1331160317&sr=1-1
I see an understandable cynicism that unfortunately morphs into his paranoia, delusions of grandeur and concomitant hatred of society. Of his megalomaniacal Messianic-Demonic delusion, all he said on interview was something like 'we all just pretended a little too much back then' (paraphrased). His resentment and envy of celebrities (and Jews), coupled with the fear-based hatred of Blacks, took him to the heights of paranoia which resulted in his conspiracy to commit murder. The delusional story, drawing on mythic themes using then-contemporary material (like The Beatles' White Album), is fascinating from a social science perspective, but there is nothing "honest" about this particular Antisocial Personality. Elders like myself and Icelander might remember the days of The Beatles' White Album, the televised landing on the moon, followed by Woodstock a month later, but all of the positive was punctuated by the Tate-LaBianca murders, and The Family of Charles Manson.
"
"I buried Paul" True story. 
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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CreativeCatalysts
Homo Sapien
Registered: 02/28/12
Posts: 74
Last seen: 5 days, 1 minute
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Jessica Swift]
#15918737 - 03/08/12 09:12 AM (2 months, 21 days ago) |
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Yes I've listened to his lecture about Shamanism vs. Schizophrenia, I was just wondering if he had actually been diagnosed or not (I am pretty sure he was not).
And to answer your question I clicked on the link or this thread and for some reason it took me to page 3 of this thread and I just started reading there!
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yeah
Registered: 02/07/09
Posts: 353
Last seen: 1 day, 13 hours
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Jessica Swift]
#15921299 - 03/08/12 05:45 PM (2 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Jessica Swift said:
The fact you are confused about Whoosh is a meta-whoosh. How far down the rabbit hole are we going?
idk
seemed random so I had to ask
we can just stop right there I guess
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I hope this is the dark part of the night which is generally just before day.
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redrocket
Stranger
Registered: 10/02/11
Posts: 11
Loc: Holland 
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: yeah]
#15924404 - 03/09/12 11:38 AM (2 months, 20 days ago) |
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I've been fascinated by CM for many years. Even before the internet i had the Lie album and i think he's a very talented musician. Also family jams is an awesome album. I've watched almost every interview and docu about him and although i agree with most of his philosophy i also think he has a very evil side to him. All you people here who think he's a saint or a prophet are idiots.
What if it was your family in the Tate or La Bianca house. Fact is those people were in their homes minding their own business when a group of psychos broke in and slaughtered them. Even if what CM says is true and that he had nothing to do with it, he did nothing to try to stop them while he knew what was going to happen. He also went in the houses after the killings to erace the traces. And he talks very disrespectfull about the people that got killed saying they basically deserved it and that if he was there it would have been a lot worse and that they stopped the Vietnam war and all this bullshit.
Also he says he never lies but i remember him contradicting himself a few times. And from what i read even Squeeky and Fromme turned their backs on him.
What i also noticed is that before the killings he never talked about atwa or saving the wales etc. There were people with worse childhood than him and they turned out alright so thats no excuse. Still an interresting dude.
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Icelander
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Posts: 67,602
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: redrocket]
#15924667 - 03/09/12 12:29 PM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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Who had a worse childhood and turned out alright?
And how do you really know what his childhood was like?
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Enlil
Universally Loved
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15925108 - 03/09/12 02:13 PM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Who had a worse childhood and turned out alright?
And how do you really know what his childhood was like?
I have a friend who has three children. When the youngest was 4, my friend with to China with the child. During that trip, the child was kidnapped. Despite the mother's best efforts, She did not find the child.
Fast forward about 12 years...She returns to China. On the street, she is accosted by a begger with no legs and one arm. The beggar is unable to speak but is making a lot of noise. Eventually, she realizes that it is her son who was kidnapped 12 years earlier.
After some time, she, along with the police, are able to piece together what happened.
The kidnappers cut off the kids legs and arm with a saw because it would make the kid more pitiful and more able to get money from tourists. The kid was made to drink acid so that he could not speak to authorities.
THAT GUY had a worse childhood than Manson...I don't need to know what Manson's childhood was like to know this to be true.
Now, at age 26 or so, the guy just got his BA and is working as a CAD draftsman.
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Icelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Enlil]
#15925810 - 03/09/12 04:57 PM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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Pics or it didn't happen dude.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Enlil
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15926161 - 03/09/12 06:08 PM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Pics or it didn't happen dude.
Then you'll just have to disbelieve. I don't post pictures of people I know for the amusement of random strangers.
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Icelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Enlil]
#15926259 - 03/09/12 06:27 PM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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Yeah I disbelieve.
Not that it matters. One would still have to know the conditions that Manson endured and I assure you no one but he will ever know that.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jessica Swift
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15928118 - 03/10/12 01:14 AM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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Applying this personal story of the kidnapped child to the case of understanding what Manson´s childhood was or wasn´t like, is further proof of his claim that when we try to categorize and relate to people we do so using images. Krishnamurti also spoke of this. We don´t actually see the person, we see our own model and story of the world.
Projection ïs one way to describe it. But it´s more complicated in this case. Charles Manson is a story that has been crafted for you. More specifically, crafted by people with their own interests: reporters, prison guards, victims and pseudo-victims, writers, lawyers, and so forth. And this is all coming to you through the cookie cutter filter of American media and values.
I would go even further to say even Charles Manson doesn´t even know his story. He inherited it from the system, and when he laughs at it they interpret his response with a pre-fabricated repetoire of Charlie-isms. It´s been beat into him and conjured against his own will ever since he was a child (maybe... how do I know?). This is the story of all of us. We´re products of our environment and have very little control over who we are, but we prance around with this self-destiny fairy tale that makes being a number in a vast sea of fish somehow more bearable.
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Enlil
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Jessica Swift]
#15928379 - 03/10/12 04:13 AM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Jessica Swift said:
Applying this personal story of the kidnapped child to the case of understanding what Manson´s childhood was or wasn´t like, is further proof of his claim that when we try to categorize and relate to people we do so using images. Krishnamurti also spoke of this. We don´t actually see the person, we see our own model and story of the world.
Projection ïs one way to describe it. But it´s more complicated in this case. Charles Manson is a story that has been crafted for you. More specifically, crafted by people with their own interests: reporters, prison guards, victims and pseudo-victims, writers, lawyers, and so forth. And this is all coming to you through the cookie cutter filter of American media and values.
I would go even further to say even Charles Manson doesn´t even know his story. He inherited it from the system, and when he laughs at it they interpret his response with a pre-fabricated repetoire of Charlie-isms. It´s been beat into him and conjured against his own will ever since he was a child (maybe... how do I know?). This is the story of all of us. We´re products of our environment and have very little control over who we are, but we prance around with this self-destiny fairy tale that makes being a number in a vast sea of fish somehow more bearable.
That's true of anyone who has garnered media attention. There is always some selective storytelling involved.
Taken on its own, maybe Manson's philosophy has merit. Perhaps there are things that he has said that are truly great ideas. The problem is that his life and his deeds are the product of a man living his philosophy. Whatever he is trying to say about life can be tested by what he did with his life. For me, a philosophy that leads a man to burglary, rape, pimping, forgery, and ultimately murder is not a philosophy that I wish to accept.
If we accept the argument that his behavior is the product of his childhood, then we must also consider that his philosophy might be as well...making it equally as corrupt and destructive as his life was.
If we accept that his behavior was the product of his choices in life, then there is little positive to be gained by accepting the philosophy of a many who has spent his entire life hurting others for his personal gain and pleasure.
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redrocket
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15928383 - 03/10/12 04:20 AM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Who had a worse childhood and turned out alright?
And how do you really know what his childhood was like?
Millions of people had worse childhoods than Manson and turned out alright. What do you think of all the children in 3rd world countries who have to prostitute themselves to get something to eat and get abused. Or victims of incest or something.
And i dont really know what Mansons childhood was like since i was not there, but i read books and interviews where he talked about his childhood and like i said there are millions who were way worse off than him.
Why do you defend him. People who defend Manson are mostly easy influenceable, weak minded emo types. Just like his followers who thought he was the light or Jesus or something because he said some wise words wich many others said before him also. There are better gurus/teachers out there.
I'm not saying he's the devil the media makes him to be. There are a lot of politicians and rich influencial people in the world who are way more evil than CM. I like his personality, he's a funny interresting guy but he belongs in jail i think.
Edited by redrocket (03/10/12 04:28 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Jessica Swift]
#15928741 - 03/10/12 08:12 AM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
I would go even further to say even Charles Manson doesn´t even know his story. He inherited it from the system, and when he laughs at it they interpret his response with a pre-fabricated repetoire of Charlie-isms. It´s been beat into him and conjured against his own will ever since he was a child (maybe... how do I know?). This is the story of all of us. We´re products of our environment and have very little control over who we are, but we prance around with this self-destiny fairy tale that makes being a number in a vast sea of fish somehow more bearable.
I totally agree with you here. Actually I dumded my response down to fit the discussion as I often do.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
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Posts: 67,602
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: redrocket]
#15928743 - 03/10/12 08:14 AM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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I'm not defending anyone. He needs no defense from me. That would be like me asking you why you are attacking him just because you posted in this discussion.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Enlil
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15928745 - 03/10/12 08:16 AM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Who did he murder? No one.
This statement is defending him...it's also untrue...but that's another issue altogether.
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Icelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Enlil]
#15928758 - 03/10/12 08:19 AM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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No it was a question or can't you read and comprehend.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Enlil
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15928769 - 03/10/12 08:24 AM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
No it was a question or can't you read and comprehend.
Question marks go at the end of the sentence in english...if you look really, really, carefully, you can see that there are two sentences there...the first is "Who did he murder?" If you look at that sentence, you'll notice that the question mark is at the end. THAT sentence is a question.
BUT...If you keep reading, you'll notice a SECOND sentence. It says, "No one." Technically, it isn't much of a sentence since it lacks the requisite subject and predicate...we can overlook that since this is an online forum...
It is, however still an answer to the question it follows.
Should you wish now to take back something you've said in the past, that is fair...but please don't act like you didn't say it...it's pathetic.
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Icelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Enlil]
#15928778 - 03/10/12 08:28 AM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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In relation to the discussion I was having about the Tate murders which that quote was lifted from there was no evidence that I had seen that he actually murdered anyone. I was asking the question in case someone could provide evidence unknown and answering it due to all the evidence I had seen in my reading around the Tate murders.
So I wasn't defending him as a person was I????
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Enlil
Universally Loved
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15928787 - 03/10/12 08:32 AM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
In relation to the discussion I was having about the Tate murders which that quote was lifted from there was no evidence that I had seen that he actually murdered anyone. I was asking the question in case someone could provide evidence unknown and answering it due to all the evidence I had seen in my reading around the Tate murders.
So I wasn't defending him as a person was I????
No one said you were...but you were defending him...whether it was his status "as a person" or simply his guilt or innocence, it's still defending him.
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Icelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Enlil]
#15928817 - 03/10/12 08:45 AM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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In that case why are you attacking him? If asking for evidence of guilt is a defense then I construe your questioning me as to why I asked for evidence as an attack. So why are you attacking him? (and me)
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Enlil
Universally Loved
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15928848 - 03/10/12 08:58 AM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
In that case why are you attacking him? If asking for evidence of guilt is a defense then I construe your questioning me as to why I asked for evidence as an attack. So why are you attacking him? (and me)
I'm not attacking either of you...
You asked a question..and then answered it...together, that makes up a statement..a statement in defense of Manson.
I couldn't care less if you defend him or don't...I never said I had a problem with that...It is simply that you said "I never defended anyone." That is not an accurate statement...
You're entitled to whatever opinions or beliefs that you may have. It doesn't matter to me...I'm just pointing out that you made a factual statement that was untrue...There's no need to be defensive about it...It isn't a personal indictment.
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Icelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Enlil]
#15929160 - 03/10/12 11:09 AM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Why do you defend him. People who defend Manson are mostly easy influenceable, weak minded emo types.
in next breath
Quote:
I couldn't care less if you defend him or don't...I never said I had a problem with that..
You're entitled to whatever opinions or beliefs that you may have. It doesn't matter to me...
yeah right
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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soldatheero
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15929209 - 03/10/12 11:31 AM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
I have spent a lot of time researching Charles Manson, and have watched many interviews.
From everything that I have observed, it seems to me that he is highly self-aware, very creative, honest, intuitive and empathetic. His words usually transcend the banalities of political and ecological ideas; they resemble those of a sage, a witty trickster, or a spiritualist. My opinion of these types of people has been influenced by noticing a similar spark in the dispositions of Joseph Campbell, Carl Jung, Alan Watts, Robert A. Wilson, Terence McKenna, Tim Leary, Ram Dass, etc. You guys know the drill.
Without delving into conspiracy theories, it is still very easy to imagine why this person would be incarcerated and depicted in major media outlets in film and print as a murderer, and an utter psychotic. The way our society shuns these types of "Manson" truth-bringers is indicative of our crooked value system - it's a sad sign of the times.
www.allthewayalive.com is an interesting site worth checking out.
Thoughts?
I think highly evolved souls can slip and fall and easily act out high forms of evil. I don't think that there is some kind of conspiracy about his murders, you can tell quite clearly from his interviews that he is very broken man. Since he likely does have a good heart it is his acts of evil that have destroyed him, since at the back of his mind or bottom of his heart he knows they are wrong. So hes acting against himself and a house divided amongst itself will not stand.. it is cognitive dissonance.
As an individual becomes more spiritual inclined their interest in the world decreases and this gives them the capacity to become either a great person or a terrible sinner.
No need to drop him into special categories such as "shaman" or "prophet" this has no meaning, he is what he is.
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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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Icelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: soldatheero]
#15929330 - 03/10/12 12:07 PM (2 months, 19 days ago) |
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My personal conclusion is that he was born genetically highly intelligent. This was molded by his nurturing. He tried of course to think his way out of his predicament as we all would. The results are there for all to see who can see without prejudice and as you said no need to think of him as some kind of a religious icon.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Enlil
Universally Loved
Registered: 08/16/03
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#15929468 - 03/10/12 12:46 PM (2 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Why do you defend him. People who defend Manson are mostly easy influenceable, weak minded emo types.
in next breath
Quote:
I couldn't care less if you defend him or don't...I never said I had a problem with that..
You're entitled to whatever opinions or beliefs that you may have. It doesn't matter to me...
yeah right
Those two quotes are from two different people...If you paid attention, you might understand that...
Not that it matters....you and I lack the traits to understand each other. You lack the requisite logical reasoning skills, and I lack the desire to help you understand.
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Icelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Enlil]
#15929582 - 03/10/12 01:18 PM (2 months, 18 days ago) |
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Oops my mistake. I apologize.
I'm not convinced I lack the reasoning skills here. I however am capable of error.
My intent was never to defend Charles himself but instead to attack anyone jumping to a conclusion about someone they don't really know about outside of the media spin. In listening to Charles own words I've concluded that he's at least somewhat insightful about the human condition in general. I also noticed that he gets pretty strong attacks based on what others have done in his name so to speak.
I suspect he's pretty crazy and possibly with psychopathic tendencies. Or not. I can't really make up my mind so I have no desire to make a case for him on those issues. As far as I knew however in the Tate case he never killed himself. If he has killed others at other times I don't remember that and was not specific to my post on that case if I remember correctly.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
Edited by Icelander (03/10/12 02:08 PM)
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Jessica Swift
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Posts: 1,723
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander] 1
#15932365 - 03/11/12 07:04 AM (2 months, 18 days ago) |
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All Hail (oh, hell!), Lord Charlie.
Charles is full of more sense and less bullshit than the world's leaders and any fucking preacher.
"I lived in Hollywood and I had all that, the Rolls Royce and the Ferrari and the pad in Beverly Hills. I had the surf board and the Beach Boys and the bishkis and the Neil Diamond and the ramskam and the Jimmy shriffen and the Elvis Presley's best of bestlies and all them guys. The Dean and Martins and the Nancy Sinatras and the goffs and sofrins, "Will you do it to me? I hear you do it good honey" and all that kind of "Will you come up to my house later?" So I went through all that and I seen that was a bigger prison than the one I just got out of and I really didn't care to go back in prison. See, prison doesn't begin and end at the gate. Prison is in the mind. It's locked in one world that's dead and dying, or it's open to a world that's free and alive.
Maybe I should have killed four, five hundred people. Then I would have felt better. Then I would have felt like I really offered society something. (Speaking of war)
If I had a desire, it would be to be free from desire.
They're looking for something dirty in everything, and if you're looking for something, you'll find it. You have to put up some kind of face for them, and that's the only face they understand.
A baby is born into this world in a state of fear. Total paranoia and awareness. He sees the world with eyes not used yet. As he grows up, his parents lay all this stuff on him. They tell him, when they should be letting him tell them. Let the children lead you.
Anything you see in me is in you. If you want to see a vicious killer, that's who you'll see, do you understand that? If you see me as your brother, that's what I'll be. It all depends on how much love you have. I am you, and when you can admit that, you will be free. I am just a mirror.
I'm probably one of the most dangerous men in the world if I want to be. But I never wanted to be anything but me.
Have you ever seen the coyote in the desert? Watching, tuned in, completely aware. Christ on the cross, the coyote in the desert — it’s the same thing, man. The coyote is beautiful. He moves through the desert delicately, aware of everything, looking around. He hears every sound, smells every smell, sees everything that moves. He’s in a state of total paranoia, and total paranoia is total awareness.
Death is psychosomatic
I was so smart when I was a kid that I learnt that I was dumb fast.
Will of God.. whatever you wanna call it.. you call it Jesus, call it Mohammed, call it goobybob, call it nuclear mind, call it blow the world up, call it your heart. Whatever you wanna call it, it's still music to me. It's there. It's the will of life.
Interview by Geraldo Rivera (1981)
I've been 15 years in the nut ward, for trying to stop the trees from being cut down, from trying to rearrange the lifestyle of a bunch of people who don't want to change. But they're gonna to change because a cold wind is blowing. You're gonna change or else there's going to be no life left on the planet Earth.
Interview by Penny Daniels (1989)
We use the word God. God hooks all the other words up. I'm the pope. I'm ten times the pope. I'm sixty times the pope. But I'm the pope in the hills and in the mountains.
Interview by Penny Daniels (1989)
I'm nobody. I'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo. I'm a boxcar and a jug of wine, and a straight razor if you get too close to me.
Interview (1989)
You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Jessica Swift]
#15935957 - 03/11/12 11:22 PM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Jessica Swift said:
A baby is born into this world in a state of fear. Total paranoia and awareness. He sees the world with eyes not used yet. As he grows up, his parents lay all this stuff on him. They tell him, when they should be letting him tell them. Let the children lead you.
...
Have you ever seen the coyote in the desert? Watching, tuned in, completely aware. Christ on the cross, the coyote in the desert — it’s the same thing, man. The coyote is beautiful. He moves through the desert delicately, aware of everything, looking around. He hears every sound, smells every smell, sees everything that moves. He’s in a state of total paranoia, and total paranoia is total awareness.
You know, I dig most of Charlie's quotes with the exceptions of these. What's so great about total paranoia?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Jessica Swift
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Posts: 1,723
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: deCypher] 1
#15936081 - 03/12/12 12:26 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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He is analogizing paranoia with awareness, and contrasting it with the sleeping morons that think they're free. The desert theme comes from his love of solitude (often forced solitude), and his reference to children is frequent due to his childhood theme as a part of his identity.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Jessica Swift]
#15936125 - 03/12/12 01:00 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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I get how total awareness is a good thing, but paranoia and fear, to me, add an unnecessary negative emotion to the mindstate.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Jessica Swift
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: deCypher] 1
#15936435 - 03/12/12 04:41 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
I get how total awareness is a good thing, but paranoia and fear, to me, add an unnecessary negative emotion to the mindstate.
"If you're not paranoid you're not paying attention," is one way to look at it. Women's breasts are illegal, they put you in tiny little cages for simply having a plant, many people still think there's a big Father in the sky, the trees and wildlife have been replaced with commercials and billboards, and everyone is calling an ace a spade. It doesn't mean we should be afraid. In fact, I think Charlie's 'problem' is he wasn't fearful enough. He had more jokes than fear.
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yeah
Registered: 02/07/09
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Jessica Swift]
#15936452 - 03/12/12 04:51 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Jessica Swift said:
Charles is full of more sense and less bullshit than the world's leaders and any fucking preacher.
Not sure if serious...
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I hope this is the dark part of the night which is generally just before day.
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Enlil
Universally Loved
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Jessica Swift] 2
#15936457 - 03/12/12 04:54 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Jessica Swift said:
Quote:
deCypher said:
I get how total awareness is a good thing, but paranoia and fear, to me, add an unnecessary negative emotion to the mindstate.
"If you're not paranoid you're not paying attention," is one way to look at it. Women's breasts are illegal, they put you in tiny little cages for simply having a plant, many people still think there's a big Father in the sky, the trees and wildlife have been replaced with commercials and billboards, and everyone is calling an ace a spade. It doesn't mean we should be afraid. In fact, I think Charlie's 'problem' is he wasn't fearful enough. He had more jokes than fear.
But paranoia is a misperception of reality...it isn't simply "paying attention." It is perceiving things that are not a threat as a threat...that diverts one's attention away from real threats...We only have the capacity to handle so much information at once, so if we're worried about the wrong things, that means we're not worried enough about the right things.
Fear is not the same as paying attention...fear is paralyzing and debilitating...it doesn't help one make wiser decisions...
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Jessica Swift
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Enlil] 1
#15936489 - 03/12/12 05:24 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
yeah said:
Not sure if serious...
Yeah, I was serious. And no need for examples. I've seen nearly every Youtube video of him, save for the edits and repeats.
Quote:
Enlil said:
But paranoia is a misperception of reality...it isn't simply "paying attention." It is perceiving things that are not a threat as a threat...that diverts one's attention away from real threats...
Misperception of reality?
There is no static and objective perception of reality. Even your own changes from morning to night. If you go a few weeks without food you may even perceive the reality of your dogs in a different way...
And what exactly are the "real" threats and what handbook did you get them from? Who gets to decide what's a real threat? "The News" is great at making threats that don't exist and people think they're imminent. To a socially anxious and highly empathetic person, public conversation itself can be a threat - and measurable through elevated cortisol level and cardiovascular response.
Quote:
We only have the capacity to handle so much information at once, so if we're worried about the wrong things, that means we're not worried enough about the right things.
The "right things"? Again, which handbook told you about the right things to be worried about? I didn't get the memo.
Quote:
Fear is not the same as paying attention...fear is paralyzing and debilitating...it doesn't help one make wiser decisions...
Fear, in fact, drives most all decisions.
I don't suppose we need to school you on death anxiety?
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Enlil
Universally Loved
Registered: 08/16/03
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Jessica Swift]
#15936497 - 03/12/12 05:31 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Jessica Swift said:
Quote:
yeah said:
Not sure if serious...
Yeah, I was serious. And no need for examples. I've seen nearly every Youtube video of him, save for the edits and repeats.
Quote:
Enlil said:
But paranoia is a misperception of reality...it isn't simply "paying attention." It is perceiving things that are not a threat as a threat...that diverts one's attention away from real threats...
Misperception of reality?
There is no static and objective perception of reality. Even your own changes from morning to night. If you go a few weeks without food you may even perceive the reality of your dogs in a different way...
And what exactly are the "real" threats and what handbook did you get them from? Who gets to decide what's a real threat? "The News" is great at making threats that don't exist and people think they're imminent. To a socially anxious and highly empathetic person, public conversation itself can be a threat - and measurable through elevated cortisol level and cardiovascular response.
Quote:
We only have the capacity to handle so much information at once, so if we're worried about the wrong things, that means we're not worried enough about the right things.
The "right things"? Again, which handbook told you about the right things to be worried about? I didn't get the memo.
Quote:
Fear is not the same as paying attention...fear is paralyzing and debilitating...it doesn't help one make wiser decisions...
Fear, in fact, drives most all decisions.
I don't suppose we need to school you on death anxiety?
Are you saying that death anxiety is the same as fear?
You also seem to be equating fear with logically avoiding negative consequences...they aren't even close to the same thing.
Fear does drive many people's decisions...that doesn't make it a better decision, however...
Fear is primal and leads to a fight or flight response...It doesn't help one solve problems or achieve the best result..
And no one said that there was some universally correct perception...but paranoia, by definition, is a misperception. As defined on dictionary.com:
"1. Psychiatry . a mental disorder characterized by systematized delusions and the projection of personal conflicts, which are ascribed to the supposed hostility of others, sometimes progressing to disturbances of consciousness and aggressive acts believed to be performed in self-defense or as a mission.
2. baseless or excessive suspicion of the motives of others."
Words have meaning...being paranoid isn't being cautious or being hyper aware...it is misperceiving non-threats as threats.
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Jessica Swift
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Enlil] 1
#15936515 - 03/12/12 05:44 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Are you saying that death anxiety is the same as fear?
It's a type of fear.
Quote:
You also seem to be equating fear with logically avoiding negative consequences...they aren't even close to the same thing.
One motivates the other. You "logically avoid" the negativity of hunger, because you are fearful of it. You "logically avoid" violence because you are fearful of pain. You "logically avoid" over-exposure to the sun, because you fear a sunburn. This is life 101. What is your point?
Quote:
Fear is primal and leads to a fight or flight response...It doesn't help one solve problems or achieve the best result..
Maybe not, but it organizes most of society. From traffic laws, to marriage fidelity, to avoiding dark alleys.
Quote:
And no one said that there was some universally correct perception...but paranoia, by definition, is a misperception. As defined on dictionary.com:
Fuck dictionary.com. I know what the word means. Don't be juvenile. You don't have a better argument than quoting a dictionary?
Quote:
Words have meaning...being paranoid isn't being cautious or being hyper aware...it is misperceiving non-threats as threats.
In one definition, yes. You are interpreting the context using the DSM/psychiatry version. Paranoia is also a "healthy" state of mind you can generate in people. After 9/11 the government created paranoia ('misperceiving non-threats as threats'). And even today, there is paranoia about Iran. But these aren't "misperceived." They are socially-constructed realities and they are as real as anything else.
But who gets to say what is a mental illness? Being paranoid about someone fucking your child is to be a good paranoid; being paranoid about "dangerous" cannabis smokers is to be a good paranoid; being paranoid about "terrorists" is to be a good paranoid.
These are agendas. Charlie didn't have one that was socially approved. So they wrote one for him and sold it.
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Icelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Enlil]
#15936517 - 03/12/12 05:44 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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Fear is primal and leads to a fight or flight response...It doesn't help one solve problems or achieve the best result..
I think a strong case has been made here and elsewhere that fear does or at least can help one solve ones problems. Seems to be some consensus that fear/suspicion based living lead to long term survival in the human species.
If something is attacking and my knee jerk is to run or fight that might solve my problem right there. Modern life complicates this of course and this does not always work out.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Enlil
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Jessica Swift] 1
#15936528 - 03/12/12 05:57 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Jessica Swift said:
Quote:
Enlil said:
Are you saying that death anxiety is the same as fear?
It's a type of fear.
Quote:
You also seem to be equating fear with logically avoiding negative consequences...they aren't even close to the same thing.
One motivates the other. You "logically avoid" the negativity of hunger, because you are fearful of it. You "logically avoid" violence because you are fearful of pain. You "logically avoid" over-exposure to the sun, because you fear a sunburn. This is life 101. What is your point?
Quote:
Fear is primal and leads to a fight or flight response...It doesn't help one solve problems or achieve the best result..
Maybe not, but it organizes most of society. From traffic laws, to marriage fidelity, to avoiding dark alleys.
Quote:
And no one said that there was some universally correct perception...but paranoia, by definition, is a misperception. As defined on dictionary.com:
Fuck dictionary.com. I know what the word means. Don't be juvenile. You don't have a better argument than quoting a dictionary?
Quote:
Words have meaning...being paranoid isn't being cautious or being hyper aware...it is misperceiving non-threats as threats.
In one definition, yes. You are interpreting the context using the DSM/psychiatry version. Paranoia is also a "healthy" state of mind you can generate in people. After 9/11 the government created paranoia ('misperceiving non-threats as threats'). And even today, there is paranoia about Iran. But these aren't "misperceived." They are socially-constructed realities and they are as real as anything else.
But who gets to say what is a mental illness? Being paranoid about someone fucking your child is to be a good paranoid; being paranoid about "dangerous" cannabis smokers is to be a good paranoid; being paranoid about "terrorists" is to be a good paranoid.
These are agendas. Charlie didn't have one that was socially approved. So they wrote one for him and sold it.
So you are just using words without any connection to their meaning at all...Fear, paranoia...you make up the meanings as you go along...That must be a convenient way to go about argumentation...
You can pretend like everything in the world is relative and completely amorphous, but that gets neither of us anywhere...It also got Manson nowhere. As true as it is that we can never "know" anything...we have to create working assumptions just to move forward as a species. The other alternative is to swim in the sea of ignorance forever...
It's clear that you're not interested in anything resembling an objective standard...so what's the point of even discussing anything? I'm not really all that interested in some intellectual/philosophical circle jerk where we all pat each other on the back for our profunduty.
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Jessica Swift
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Enlil] 1
#15936548 - 03/12/12 06:12 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
So you are just using words without any connection to their meaning at all..
Words always have meaning. Tell me a word that doesn't? I'm excited! 
Sometimes sentences don't have coherent meaning, hence the schizophrenic word salad, gobbledegook glossolalia, and the Ouroboros of Law libraries.
Quote:
Fear, paranoia...you make up the meanings as you go along...That must be a convenient way to go about argumentation...
This is an ad hominem. You're not saying anything interesting.
Quote:
You can pretend like everything in the world is relative and completely amorphous, but that gets neither of us anywhere...It also got Manson nowhere.
I have nothing to prove or anywhere to arrive. Where are you trying to go, sport?
Quote:
As true as it is that we can never "know" anything...we have to create working assumptions just to move forward as a species. The other alternative is to swim in the sea of ignorance forever...
Here you go with this moving forward rap again. They canceled NASA, you didn't hear?
"Swim in the sea of ignorance." That sounds poet, but I assume we're still operating with your own definition of ignorance. To an old woman who mends yurts in the hills of Mongolia, we're both pretty ignorant. Context is important with such words like ignorance. "Swimming in a sea of ignorance" is just a hot fart on my side of the river.
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Enlil
Universally Loved
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Jessica Swift]
#15936556 - 03/12/12 06:16 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Jessica Swift said:
Quote:
So you are just using words without any connection to their meaning at all..
Words always have meaning. Tell me a word that doesn't? I'm excited!
Sometimes sentences don't have coherent meaning, hence the schizophrenic word salad, gobbledegook glossolalia, and the Ouroboros of Law libraries.
Quote:
Fear, paranoia...you make up the meanings as you go along...That must be a convenient way to go about argumentation...
This is an ad hominem. You're not saying anything interesting.
Quote:
You can pretend like everything in the world is relative and completely amorphous, but that gets neither of us anywhere...It also got Manson nowhere.
I have nothing to prove or anywhere to arrive. Where are you trying to go, sport?
Quote:
As true as it is that we can never "know" anything...we have to create working assumptions just to move forward as a species. The other alternative is to swim in the sea of ignorance forever...
Here you go with this moving forward rap again. They canceled NASA, you didn't hear?
"Swim in the sea of ignorance." That sounds poet, but I assume we're still operating with your own definition of ignorance. To an old woman who mends yurts in the hills of Mongolia, we're both pretty ignorant. Context is important with such words like ignorance. "Swimming in a sea of ignorance" is just a hot fart on my side of the river.
Clearly, you don't know what an ad hominem is, either...
Just make up the meanings as you go along, kiddo...it will serve you well in life.
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Jessica Swift
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Enlil] 1
#15936562 - 03/12/12 06:22 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
you make up the meanings as you go along...
You keep addressing me and my use of language rather than discussing Charlie. This is an ad hominem.
As far as taking me far in life, I'm an important person, I swear. I have like, you know, degrees, and books, and fancy passport stamps. I even have people who love me for my ideas. They come and sit around me under an old Bodhi tree. And since I have an audience I know I have something to say.
Quote:
Just make up the meanings as you go along,
That's the name of the game.
We're speaking through 1s and 0s right now. Those didn't fall from the apple tree.
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LunarEclipse
Mr. Worry Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 6,769
Loc: Sugar Town
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Enlil]
#15936576 - 03/12/12 06:32 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Why do you defend him. People who defend Manson are mostly easy influenceable, weak minded emo types.
in next breath
Quote:
I couldn't care less if you defend him or don't...I never said I had a problem with that..
You're entitled to whatever opinions or beliefs that you may have. It doesn't matter to me...
yeah right
Those two quotes are from two different people...If you paid attention, you might understand that...
Not that it matters....you and I lack the traits to understand each other. You lack the requisite logical reasoning skills, and I lack the desire to help you understand.
Post of the decade. Classic.
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Don't worry be happy.
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Jessica Swift
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: LunarEclipse] 1
#15936590 - 03/12/12 06:39 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Post of the decade. Classic.
Are we posting here for trophies now? 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Jessica Swift]
#15936600 - 03/12/12 06:41 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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Looner don't like me. 
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jessica Swift
यन्त्र
Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 1,723
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander] 2
#15936608 - 03/12/12 06:46 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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Grudges?
Aw, come on, guys. Let's all bask in the glory of love and light.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Jessica Swift] 1
#15936624 - 03/12/12 06:51 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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My take on Charlie was that he was paranoid which is an overreaction to fear. It is however understandable that he would be paranoid considering how likely it is that his life was lived in so much fear and tension right from early childhood.
His encouragement of others to kill was illogical imo. It was not going to cure any of the ills of this world that he railed against and so was no kind of fix for anything. He'd lost it imo. Were he mostly rational he'd have realized he had a tribe and some sort of position and power and could have made some kind of life on the outside.
None of this changes my opinion that CM was highly intelligent and aware of how culture restricts us and our full expression at most times. He just didn't know now to quell his own demons. Like most of us he could see into others but not himself at least in some important areas. Also he's a master manipulator imo and so can convince people he's some realized soul. He's more of a lost soul who knows it. This puts him a step up over most humans imo.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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yeah
Registered: 02/07/09
Posts: 353
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#15936789 - 03/12/12 07:57 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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I'm wondering how much discretion one has to lack to see every video of Charles Manson and still believe he was deep and profound.
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I hope this is the dark part of the night which is generally just before day.
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Jessica Swift
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Registered: 01/13/12
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: yeah] 1
#15936812 - 03/12/12 08:06 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
yeah said:
I'm wondering how much discretion one has to lack to see every video of Charles Manson and still believe he was deep and profound.
I wonder how many rhetorical questions this thread can hold before it pops.
Charlie is only as deep as you want him to be.
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Enlil
Universally Loved
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Jessica Swift]
#15936841 - 03/12/12 08:22 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Jessica Swift said:
Quote:
yeah said:
I'm wondering how much discretion one has to lack to see every video of Charles Manson and still believe he was deep and profound.
I wonder how many rhetorical questions this thread can hold before it pops.
Charlie is only as deep as you want him to be.
That wasn't a rhetorical question...In fact, it wasn't a question at all...
But...you can make up your own meaning for that, too.
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Jessica Swift
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Registered: 01/13/12
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Enlil] 1
#15936870 - 03/12/12 08:32 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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The painful irony here is that with the last two cases that you've attacked me, one involving my "misuse" of an ad hominem and now concerning my "misuse" of a rhetoric question; in both cases I've used both expressions correctly.
It's obvious that you have some bone to pick with me. Why are you following me around and trying to fabricate inadequacies?
It's kind of cute, but slightly annoying.
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Enlil
Universally Loved
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 2,763
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Jessica Swift] 1
#15936888 - 03/12/12 08:37 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Jessica Swift said:
The painful irony here is that with the last two cases that you've attacked me, one involving my "misuse" of an ad hominem and now concerning my "misuse" of a rhetoric question; in both cases I've used both expressions correctly.
It's obvious that you have some bone to pick with me. Why are you following me around and trying to fabricate inadequacies?
It's kind of cute, but slightly annoying.
You see that as an attack? I have a tendency to point out inaccuracies...It isn't personal. You'll eventually learn what an ad hominem attack is...and what a rhetorical question is...until then, I'm just trying to help you better your rhetorical skills.
I would quote a definition to help you better understand, but you've made it clear that dictionary definitions are meaningless to you.
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Jessica Swift
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Enlil] 1
#15936901 - 03/12/12 08:40 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
You see that as an attack? I have a tendency to point out inaccuracies...It isn't personal. You'll eventually learn what an ad hominem attack is...and what a rhetorical question is...until then, I'm just trying to help you better your rhetorical skills.
Oh, so you're teaching me?
You have nothing of any significance to share, so you contrive grammatical flaws and misapplied clauses and call that conversation or debate. You're just nit-picking at trivialities. It's like a blow fly munching on a turd. This is what you're offering me?
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Enlil
Universally Loved
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Enlil]
#15936911 - 03/12/12 08:46 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Jessica Swift said:
I wonder how many rhetorical questions this thread can hold before it pops.
Yes...you are correct...I am nitpicking...and you're offering very insightful content.
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 egodeathflux
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Jessica Swift] 1
#15937240 - 03/12/12 10:22 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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Etymology dictionaries on have a valid use:
PARANOIA:
"mental disorder characterized by systematized delusions," 1891 (earlier paranoea 1811), from Gk. paranoia "mental derangement, madness," from paranoos "mentally ill, insane," from para- "beside, beyond" (see para-) + noos "mind."
The basic breakdown of this word shouldn't have raised the eyebrow of anyone with an interest in language, it is incredibly basic in both meaning and origin.
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KetBom
Stranger
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: egodeathflux] 1
#15937379 - 03/12/12 10:58 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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Im smarter and stronger than all you guys!! Wanna fight?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 67,602
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: yeah]
#15937657 - 03/12/12 11:51 AM (2 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
yeah said:
I'm wondering how much discretion one has to lack to see every video of Charles Manson and still believe he was deep and profound.
I have no idea what you're getting at? I've seen videos where he really seems quite thoughtful and profound. I've seen others where he seems, imo, stupid and nutty. Since I've watched more than a few over the years I would say that the longer he's been incarcerated and aging the nuttier he gets which would make sense to me. I doubt I'd age well if I'd spent most of my life in prison.
Again, my opinion is that he's smarter/more aware than the average joe and jane by a good margin. That doesn't mean I'd want him for a friend. 
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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FungusMaximusIII
FunGuy'ed
Registered: 02/27/12
Posts: 13
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#15938544 - 03/12/12 03:42 PM (2 months, 16 days ago) |
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He is Jesus?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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No, I think I'd what "Jesus" for a friend. I love fantasy friends. 
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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cbub
thread killer
Registered: 10/17/10
Posts: 769
Last seen: 21 minutes, 14 seconds
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Quote:
FungusMaximusIII said:
He is Jesus?
Nah, he's Charles
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