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 The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc: 
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 Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman   1
#14977322 - 08/25/11 02:41 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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I have spent a lot of time researching Charles Manson, and have watched many interviews.
From everything that I have observed, it seems to me that he is highly self-aware, very creative, honest, intuitive and empathetic. His words usually transcend the banalities of political and ecological ideas; they resemble those of a sage, a witty trickster, or a spiritualist. My opinion of these types of people has been influenced by noticing a similar spark in the dispositions of Joseph Campbell, Carl Jung, Alan Watts, Robert A. Wilson, Terence McKenna, Tim Leary, Ram Dass, etc. You guys know the drill.
Without delving into conspiracy theories, it is still very easy to imagine why this person would be incarcerated and depicted in major media outlets in film and print as a murderer, and an utter psychotic. The way our society shuns these types of "Manson" truth-bringers is indicative of our crooked value system - it's a sad sign of the times.
www.allthewayalive.com is an interesting site worth checking out.
Thoughts?
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 PatrickKn
Do Easy
Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 3,783
Last seen: 10 days, 56 minutes
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 Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14977337 - 08/25/11 02:46 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Dude, he convinced people to kill others while dosing them with a shit ton of LSD. He used his 'shamanic' personality to convince people to do stupid shit. I don't think there's much conspiracy to it, he deserves to be locked up for life. It's got nothing to do with his spirituality that he ended up in prison for life, it's the fact that he is not at all compatible with society.
Charles Manson is a wacko. Alan Watts is not. Big difference.
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Edited by PatrickKn (08/25/11 02:48 PM)
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Fronnis
Only in dreams
Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 851
Last seen: 7 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: PatrickKn]
#14977374 - 08/25/11 02:53 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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I agree his ideas are not that bad, but for what he is known to have committed, I would prefer him dead than to be praised for being anything but a murderer with a high IQ.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale] 2
#14977378 - 08/25/11 02:54 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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I've always considered CM (comparatively to most of humanity) an intelligent, thoughtful, somewhat honest person. His childhood pretty much set in stone the life that would await him in a culture such as ours imo. Had he a different environment he could easily have been hailed a genius.
Of course with all these years of incarceration, especially in childhood he's gone somewhat mad but he knows and acknowledges this.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: PatrickKn]
#14977379 - 08/25/11 02:54 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
PatrickKn said:
Dude, he convinced people to kill others while dosing them with a shit ton of LSD. He used his 'shamanic' personality to convince people to do stupid shit. I don't think there's much conspiracy to it, he deserves to be locked up for life. It's got nothing to do with his spirituality that he ended up in prison for life, it's the fact that he is not at all compatible with society.
Charles Manson is a wacko. Alan Watts is not. Big difference.
Alan Watts is a presentable Englishman who is eloquent and well educated, and thus an easier pill to swallow. His spiritual ideas differ very little, if at all, from Manson's. First though you must begin to get rid of all the misconceptions that you have about him - this being the things you have heard that intentionally distort the messages he brings, messages which expose how corrupt out "modern" way of life is, how inefficient and utterly cruel our court system is to criminals who in many cases have little to no choice in the matters of their own lives, how many of us walk around fully convinced that status is real, that money is anything but agreement over paper, that jobs are degrees are anything more substantial than cultural icons and transient identities.
He dosed people with LSD and brain-washed them, huh?
Do you realize how you are simultaneously criticizing LSD with the same sort of twisted rhetoric that the DEA uses to depict hallucinogens?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Fronnis] 2
#14977380 - 08/25/11 02:55 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Fronnis said:
I agree his ideas are not that bad, but for what he is known to have committed, I would prefer him dead than to be praised for being anything but a murderer with a high IQ.
Who did he murder? No one.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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PatrickKn
Do Easy
Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 3,783
Last seen: 10 days, 56 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14977399 - 08/25/11 03:00 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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People CAN be manipulated while on LSD or other hallucinogenic drugs. Easily. I don't give a fuck what the DEA says, this is simple truth. People in susceptible mindsets become more manipulatable.
And who cares if he didn't murder anyone with his bare hands? He convinced a cult to do so, which is just as bad.
Yeah, the justice system is fucked up and he is a victim of it. Doesn't mean he wasn't a fucked up person.
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MokshaMedicine
Mr. Mojo Risin
Registered: 08/17/11
Posts: 177
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale] 2
#14977412 - 08/25/11 03:04 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said:
Quote:
PatrickKn said:
Dude, he convinced people to kill others while dosing them with a shit ton of LSD. He used his 'shamanic' personality to convince people to do stupid shit. I don't think there's much conspiracy to it, he deserves to be locked up for life. It's got nothing to do with his spirituality that he ended up in prison for life, it's the fact that he is not at all compatible with society.
Charles Manson is a wacko. Alan Watts is not. Big difference.
Alan Watts is a presentable Englishman who is eloquent and well educated, and thus an easier pill to swallow. His spiritual ideas differ very little, if at all, from Manson's. First though you must begin to get rid of all the misconceptions that you have about him - this being the things you have heard that intentionally distort the messages he brings, messages which expose how corrupt out "modern" way of life is, how inefficient and utterly cruel our court system is to criminals who in many cases have little to no choice in the matters of their own lives, how many of us walk around fully convinced that status is real, that money is anything but agreement over paper, that jobs are degrees are anything more substantial than cultural icons and transient identities.
He dosed people with LSD and brain-washed them, huh?
Do you realize how you are simultaneously criticizing LSD with the same sort of twisted rhetoric that the DEA uses to depict hallucinogens?
Get off Manson's dick. He is a fucking psychopath. He is right where he belongs.
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 GIFSoup
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: PatrickKn]
#14977431 - 08/25/11 03:09 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
PatrickKn said:
People CAN be manipulated while on LSD or other hallucinogenic drugs. Easily. I don't give a fuck what the DEA says, this is simple truth. People in susceptible mindsets become more manipulatable.
And who cares if he didn't murder anyone with his bare hands? He convinced a cult to do so, which is just as bad.
Yeah, the justice system is fucked up and he is a victim of it. Doesn't mean he wasn't a fucked up person.
How do you know he was a fucked up person?
Our knowledge of his persona has been deliberately fabricated by many authority figures, television programs, journalists, and our own friends and family - who in casual conversation and jokes perpetuate their own misunderstanding and fear. This is one among many messages he alludes to throughout interviews with him: our minds are entirely conditioned by our environment, to the extent that we believe things to be true merely because they are all-pervasive. And this removes us from reality.
Do you think it is merely a coincidence that the government frames his guilt as being directly correlated with hallucinogens, rock and roll music (specifically the Beatles), and living as a hippie with communal and familial values? These are all antithetical to the corporate, violent, and materialist system that attempts to control all of us.
Quote:
Get off Manson's dick. He is a fucking psychopath. He is right where he belongs.
You are being offensive and contribute nothing of intellect to the conversation. Go hang out elsewhere unless you have ideas to share.
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MokshaMedicine
Mr. Mojo Risin
Registered: 08/17/11
Posts: 177
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14977448 - 08/25/11 03:12 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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It just seems you have an unhealthy obsession with a raving lunatic. I won't waste another second on this thread.
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GIFSoup
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: MokshaMedicine] 3
#14977476 - 08/25/11 03:17 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
MokshaMedicine said:
It just seems you have an unhealthy obsession with a raving lunatic. I won't waste another second on this thread.
Debating opinions to any great length displays that I have considered various points, it doesn't suggest I'm obsessed with a particular subject. Sorry if bodies of text scare you. I equally debate music and art with equal enthusiasm.
By the way, "moksha medicine" can come in many forms. If it is powerful enough to fit in plants and chemicals, it can be found in people, places, and ideas - even those we may fear. It just takes a little more patience and a little more effort to spot it.
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14977522 - 08/25/11 03:28 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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This video illustrates his esoteric wisdom and ideas.
It is interesting to me how he has preserved such insight despite being abused by the system he strives to understand and show to people, who are unfortunately so embedded within it they are incapable of seeing what he is describing. To those who are disillusioned it just sounds like a madman speaking about abstraction.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: PatrickKn]
#14977534 - 08/25/11 03:30 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
PatrickKn said:
People CAN be manipulated while on LSD or other hallucinogenic drugs. Easily. I don't give a fuck what the DEA says, this is simple truth. People in susceptible mindsets become more manipulatable.
And who cares if he didn't murder anyone with his bare hands? He convinced a cult to do so, which is just as bad.
Yeah, the justice system is fucked up and he is a victim of it. Doesn't mean he wasn't a fucked up person.
Each human is responsible for their own actions. Or else we are all not responsible.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: MokshaMedicine]
#14977544 - 08/25/11 03:33 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
MokshaMedicine said:
It just seems you have an unhealthy obsession with a raving lunatic. I won't waste another second on this thread.
Why all the heavy emotion here? Why so upset that you cannot even hold up in a simple conversation. What is this triggering for you? There's nothing threatening here unless you believe it.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander] 1
#14977568 - 08/25/11 03:39 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
MokshaMedicine said:
It just seems you have an unhealthy obsession with a raving lunatic. I won't waste another second on this thread.
Why all the heavy emotion here? Why so upset that you cannot even hold up in a simple conversation. What is this triggering for you? There's nothing threatening here unless you believe it.
If I may, the first thing it triggers is an "enemy complex." It is ingrained within us (or perhaps instinctual) to preserve a categorization of certain people as threatening and undesirable. This similarly helps us to divide ourselves into an opposite category of good, deserving, and righteous. Authority figures like parents, religion, and government are usually the origin from which we receive signals on how to classify people as unconditionally 'good' or 'bad'.
Additionally, to consider that we have a very compassionate and wise person behind bars contradicts our notions of control. If the bad people are really the ones squandering our world, what does that say about the future hope for humanity?
It's also a bit of death anxiety, Ice. WE could be the ones behind bars and rotting - for removing ourselves from this elaborate game and exposing the rules for their shabby illusions. Like Manson said though, unless we free our minds we're still in a prison of sorts.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,602
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
#14977611 - 08/25/11 03:46 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Interesting observations. IMO there is likely something to them.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14977654 - 08/25/11 03:53 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Interesting observations. IMO there is likely something to them.
Thanks for commenting, I'm still open to other opinions. But still, his messages are suspiciously beautiful to me. Humans love appearances: if his name was Thich Nhat Hanh and he wore clean clothes in a garden we might be more exuberant about signing off our own inquiring mind to eagerly devour his ideologies. Tongue in cheek here. Fortunately he's a "rogue murderer" so we're forced to think a little bit more and peak behind the curtains.
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graffix87
ישו הוא האדון
Registered: 07/27/11
Posts: 135
Last seen: 6 months, 5 days
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
#14977682 - 08/25/11 03:57 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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I used to be have a friend (really a friends dad) that is a prison guard. Well I guess he sat in on the trial for Charles Manson. Maybe just one time or multiple I'm not sure. You know how some people just give you that horrible vibe? I guess he totally felt the evil that was in Charles and he has such a blank look. That's just what this guy I knew said, thought I'd share...
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 3,635
Last seen: 7 hours, 10 minutes
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: graffix87] 3
#14977705 - 08/25/11 04:01 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Of course, your friend's dad already had preconceptions about what Manson was. His gut feelings don't really mean anything to me.
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The Whale
Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: graffix87]
#14977728 - 08/25/11 04:04 PM (8 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
graffix87 said:
I used to be have a friend (really a friends dad) that is a prison guard. Well I guess he sat in on the trial for Charles Manson. Maybe just one time or multiple I'm not sure. You know how some people just give you that horrible vibe? I guess he totally felt the evil that was in Charles and he has such a blank look. That's just what this guy I knew said, thought I'd share...
Felt the evil and had a blank look?
I would maybe feel the evil too if everything I knew about a person were elaborate stories of murder and evil. It would be doubly convincing to be in a court room with dozens of people who all feel and think exactly the same. If a magician does a trick in your living room it doesn't "look and feel" as magnificent as it does when he performs it on stage and with an audience.
Even 48 hours in prison and I would look like hell. Think about it.
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