I don't know if I am enlightened or not. - Spirituality & Mysticism

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xFrockx

Registered: 09/17/06
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I don't know if I am enlightened or not.
#14971355 - 08/24/11 01:37 PM (9 months, 23 hours ago)

Honestly. I'll read and respond to anything anyone posts here if I can. Feel free to ask me anything or say anything to me that you want to.

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EdgeChaos
Still a stranger

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14971378 - 08/24/11 01:43 PM (9 months, 23 hours ago)

How do you define enlightenment? Is this enlightenment possible to attain or is it just a path to take on the road of life?

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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14971388 - 08/24/11 01:46 PM (9 months, 23 hours ago)

Did you lie to me in PM or to yourself?

--------------------

“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker

"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."

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deff
just relax

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14971394 - 08/24/11 01:47 PM (9 months, 23 hours ago)

how's the weather? :sun:

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xFrockx

Registered: 09/17/06
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: EdgeChaos]
#14971449 - 08/24/11 02:01 PM (9 months, 23 hours ago)

Well I don't know how to define enlightenment, which is at least part of the reason why I don't know if I am enlightened.

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xFrockx

Registered: 09/17/06
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: deff]
#14971452 - 08/24/11 02:02 PM (9 months, 23 hours ago)

Do you mean how as in what? Or how as in how do I like it?

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xFrockx

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14971464 - 08/24/11 02:04 PM (9 months, 23 hours ago)

I said I would not do something that I am doing now, yes. Can a person really lie to themselves though? I always had the option of returning, even if I felt like I wouldn't, and I never saw that option go away, so I don't know if I ever really believed I would not return.

Edited by xFrockx (08/24/11 02:11 PM)

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deff
just relax

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14971521 - 08/24/11 02:21 PM (9 months, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:

Do you mean how as in what? Or how as in how do I like it?

moreso the latter i suppose

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creationdivine
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: deff]

2
#14971555 - 08/24/11 02:29 PM (9 months, 22 hours ago)

did you really need to post this? :strokebeard3:

--------------------

Kickin' it with some Cinctulus!

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xFrockx

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: deff]
#14971616 - 08/24/11 02:46 PM (9 months, 22 hours ago)

It is what it is I suppose.

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Icelander
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14971647 - 08/24/11 02:52 PM (9 months, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
I said I would not do something that I am doing now, yes. Can a person really lie to themselves though? I always had the option of returning, even if I felt like I wouldn't, and I never saw that option go away, so I don't know if I ever really believed I would not return.

You don't know what you believed? Anyway I was just curious as to what happened.

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xFrockx

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14971787 - 08/24/11 03:23 PM (9 months, 21 hours ago)

"You don't know what you believed?"

I wouldn't say I believed anything. I thought about what it would mean to leave forever, or to go back on it right then. I thought it would be really novel to leave forever, but at the same time I wasn't committed enough to the premises for leaving to warrant not returning. If I hadn't come back to read I don't know if it would have bothered me. What bothered me was coming back and seeing too much agreement in a thread.

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Cups
technically "here"

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14971809 - 08/24/11 03:30 PM (9 months, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Did you lie to me in PM or to yourself?

It is all so clear now...You really did have genuinely intrigued there for a minute.

--------------------
No more words of wisdom.

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zZZz
friend

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14972431 - 08/24/11 05:23 PM (9 months, 19 hours ago)

Enlightened is leaving this forum, the internet and never coming back.

Until someone really wants you back.

--------------------
Jesus Is Love

"The best quote of all time"

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foliocb
Self-destruction...

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: zZZz]
#14972559 - 08/24/11 05:41 PM (9 months, 19 hours ago)

enlightenment is a subjective term that is different then anyone. If you are looking for 'objective enlightenment' chances are you wont find it, it may not even exist as far as we know and I personally don't think humans are capable of perceiving such a thing.

As for subjective enlgihtenment, if you dont feel that you are enlightened then you obviously aren't.

--------------------

Everything posted by me on this forum is purely fictional and should not be taken seriously.

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zZZz
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: foliocb]
#14972571 - 08/24/11 05:44 PM (9 months, 19 hours ago)

Enlightenment is just a word and doesn't mean shit.

--------------------
Jesus Is Love

"The best quote of all time"

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Kickle
A Growing Hope

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: zZZz]

1
#14972611 - 08/24/11 05:51 PM (9 months, 19 hours ago)

"Enlightenment is just a word and doesn't mean shit." is just a bunch of words that don't mean shit

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zZZz
friend

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Kickle]
#14972646 - 08/24/11 05:57 PM (9 months, 19 hours ago)

exactly

--------------------
Jesus Is Love

"The best quote of all time"

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Kickle
A Growing Hope

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: zZZz]
#14972734 - 08/24/11 06:13 PM (9 months, 19 hours ago)

And yet we fill them with meaning because its useful :shrug:

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lolwut
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Kickle]
#14972742 - 08/24/11 06:14 PM (9 months, 19 hours ago)

You're not enlightened and its a farce to say you are. You're welcome

--------------------
To be an angel, you gotta earn your wings
To control your own, you gotta burn your strings
To hit blackjack, you gotta turn a king
But to live forever, all you gotta do is learn to sing

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zZZz
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Kickle]
#14972751 - 08/24/11 06:15 PM (9 months, 19 hours ago)

i tell you, the irony of it all

--------------------
Jesus Is Love

"The best quote of all time"

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Shrooomtastic
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14972826 - 08/24/11 06:28 PM (9 months, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Can a person really lie to themselves though?

The fact that you even had to ask this question tells me you are not enlightened lol. People do this ALL the time. Its called repression. Your ego does it, or at least has done it in the past, I'm sure, to protect itself from a painful truth.

--------------------
"There is only one dreamer, the one Self, dreaming many dreams."

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zZZz
friend

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Shrooomtastic]
#14972920 - 08/24/11 06:49 PM (9 months, 18 hours ago)

and what is this painful truth you speak of?

--------------------
Jesus Is Love

"The best quote of all time"

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sk8ordude
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: zZZz]
#14973452 - 08/24/11 08:25 PM (9 months, 16 hours ago)

I think part of being enlightened would be knowing that you are enlightened. I think that the closest anyone gets to enlightenment is contentness with your position in life.

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Icelander
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: sk8ordude]
#14973517 - 08/24/11 08:36 PM (9 months, 16 hours ago)

I think there are some here who are awakened. I'm not sure anyone anywhere is enlightened.

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haveyouever
everyouhave

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14973978 - 08/24/11 10:01 PM (9 months, 15 hours ago)

Enlightenment is not a light switch that just turns on out of the blue. Stop lusting for it and it will come but, it might not be what you thought or hoped it would be.

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zZZz
friend

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: haveyouever]
#14974122 - 08/24/11 10:26 PM (9 months, 14 hours ago)

do you speak from experience?

--------------------
Jesus Is Love

"The best quote of all time"

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haveyouever
everyouhave

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: zZZz]
#14974206 - 08/24/11 10:42 PM (9 months, 14 hours ago)

Sure I would say right now while I eat my ice cream cone I feel enlightened. Every time I face reality I feel enlightened. Even when life fucking sucks I take it how it comes but, it's not something that just happens it was built over time.

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zZZz
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: haveyouever]
#14974305 - 08/24/11 11:01 PM (9 months, 14 hours ago)

I just can't picture someone who is truly free or "enlightened" hanging around this forum and posting. I try to imagine someone like buddha hanging around this forum, sitting on a chair and staring at a computer and i start cracking up. I just can't see it happening. I think a true buddha, so to speak, could careless about the internet, technology, or any type of entertainment like eating ice cream.

--------------------
Jesus Is Love

"The best quote of all time"

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Kickle
A Growing Hope

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: zZZz]
#14974316 - 08/24/11 11:03 PM (9 months, 14 hours ago)

why? the physical manifestation of the buddha was a product of his time :shrug:

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Cudder
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Kickle]
#14974365 - 08/24/11 11:13 PM (9 months, 14 hours ago)

If you were enlightened, you wouldn't be on a forum like this, asking if you are enlightened or not.

You simply know.

--------------------
:tmckenna:

Trade list

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White Beard
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Cudder]
#14974509 - 08/24/11 11:50 PM (9 months, 13 hours ago)

Yes.

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haveyouever
everyouhave

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Cudder]
#14974516 - 08/24/11 11:51 PM (9 months, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

zZZz said:
I just can't picture someone who is truly free or "enlightened" hanging around this forum and posting. I try to imagine someone like buddha hanging around this forum, sitting on a chair and staring at a computer and i start cracking up. I just can't see it happening. I think a true buddha, so to speak, could careless about the internet, technology, or any type of entertainment like eating ice cream.

Ha. I'm just messing around the the only Buddhist teaching I follow is question authority and other than that i'm free from belief. Enlightenment is bullshit and even if you were enlightened you're the only one that will notice. Also, I'm sitting on my rug if that makes it easier for you to picture.

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FishOilTheKid
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14974531 - 08/24/11 11:55 PM (9 months, 13 hours ago)

Tell me the honest truth... Your views on transubstantiation and the ingestion of the Eucharist. :mushroom2:

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zZZz
friend

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: haveyouever]
#14974557 - 08/25/11 12:08 AM (9 months, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

haveyouever said:
Enlightenment is bullshit and even if you were enlightened you're the only one that will notice.

I think people will notice a half naked man feeding a squirrel. :laugh:

im kidding of course, but im sure many will notice someone who has given themselves to the world. Im not sure if that is what it takes, but either way, i think many will notice.

Quote:

haveyouever said:
Also, I'm sitting on my rug if that makes it easier for you to picture.

No, its the same, just a funnier picture. :lol:

--------------------
Jesus Is Love

"The best quote of all time"

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The Chronic

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: zZZz]
#14974843 - 08/25/11 02:53 AM (9 months, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

zZZz said:
Quote:

haveyouever said:
Enlightenment is bullshit and even if you were enlightened you're the only one that will notice.

I think people will notice a half naked man feeding a squirrel.

what?

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cool Aide
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: The Chronic]
#14974857 - 08/25/11 03:10 AM (9 months, 10 hours ago)

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zZZz
friend

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: The Chronic]
#14974869 - 08/25/11 03:18 AM (9 months, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

The Chronic said:
what?

lol close enough

coolaid....your avatar man :laugh2:

--------------------
Jesus Is Love

"The best quote of all time"

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crkhd
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14974877 - 08/25/11 03:23 AM (9 months, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I think there are some here who are awakened. I'm not sure anyone anywhere is enlightened.

Agreed. I hear the distinction between "awake" and "enlightened" is illusory but there's one little catch. You don't actually know that until you're enlightened. :psychsplit:

--------------------

SHABOOM

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The Chronic

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: zZZz]
#14974901 - 08/25/11 03:43 AM (9 months, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

zZZz said:
Quote:

The Chronic said:
what?

lol close enough

I wans't expecting that :heart:

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xFrockx

Registered: 09/17/06
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Cudder]
#14975353 - 08/25/11 07:48 AM (9 months, 5 hours ago)

How does one know?

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xFrockx

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: FishOilTheKid]
#14975358 - 08/25/11 07:49 AM (9 months, 5 hours ago)

I don't really have any :shrug:

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FishOilTheKid
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14975386 - 08/25/11 07:57 AM (9 months, 5 hours ago)

Do you have any views on schizophrenia...??

Or the existence of an etheric race of beings on our planet...??

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xFrockx

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: FishOilTheKid]
#14975429 - 08/25/11 08:11 AM (9 months, 5 hours ago)

"Do you have any views on schizophrenia...??"

The farthest I get there is "What is schizophrenia?"

"Or the existence of an etheric race of beings on our planet...?? "

What is etheric?

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Hiro

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14976430 - 08/25/11 11:58 AM (9 months, 1 hour ago)

You could be enlightened and be unsure as to whether or not you are "enlightened" by some standards of others, religion or something since it is just a label after all. Though if you are enlightened you prolly don't actually care that much whether you are considered so or not, haha.

Quote:

zZZz said:
I just can't picture someone who is truly free or "enlightened" hanging around this forum and posting. I try to imagine someone like buddha hanging around this forum, sitting on a chair and staring at a computer and i start cracking up. I just can't see it happening. I think a true buddha, so to speak, could careless about the internet, technology, or any type of entertainment like eating ice cream.

To gain access to mushiesss haha but the buddha doesn't need mushies you say? Not needed but fun anyway and something to do haha

Also, what is this distinction between being awake and enlightened?

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xFrockx

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Hiro]
#14976863 - 08/25/11 01:15 PM (9 months, 4 minutes ago)

Well how would I know if I really was?

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Hiro

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14976943 - 08/25/11 01:28 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

What makes you think you might be? What do you think being enlightened is?

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xFrockx

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Hiro]
#14976973 - 08/25/11 01:33 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I don't know if I am. I don't know what being enlightened is.

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Kickle
A Growing Hope

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14977055 - 08/25/11 01:48 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

"As to the vow, "We vow to attain supreme buddhahood," when we are able to bend our mind to follow the true and orthodox dharma on all occasions, and when prajna always rises in or mind, so that we can hold aloof from enlightenment as well as from ignorance, and do away with truth as well as falsehood, then we may consider ourselves as having realized the buddha-nature, or in other words, as having attained buddhahood."

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xFrockx

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Kickle]
#14977076 - 08/25/11 01:53 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I don't understand what that means at all. Could you explain?

What is the true and orthodox dharma?

What is prajna?

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Kickle
A Growing Hope

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14977086 - 08/25/11 01:55 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

When you are neither enlightened nor ignorant, neither true nor false, you are amid the middle way which is where buddhahood resides.

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Kickle
A Growing Hope

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Kickle]
#14977124 - 08/25/11 02:02 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

What is the true and orthodox dharma?

The actions of one residing in buddhahood. Or more commonly, the noble path.

What is prajna?

Wisdom

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Hiro

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14977141 - 08/25/11 02:06 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
I don't know if I am. I don't know what being enlightened is.

I said why do you think you might be enlightened? Like what made you ask the question of whether you are or not.

Also if you want to consider yourself enlightened then you should prolly know what it is haha, but either way it would just be a label.

Personally I've read stuff about enlightenment and various other things and it seemed like enlightenment is what I was experiencing so viola I say I am enlightened, haha, but regardless of what anyone labels anything, it is what it is

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Icelander
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14977262 - 08/25/11 02:27 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
I don't know if I am. I don't know what being enlightened is.

If you don't know one way or another why does it matter? You am what you am and that experience needs no label or justification.

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xFrockx

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Hiro]
#14977285 - 08/25/11 02:32 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I never said I might be, but I do question if I am, but I don't know if I am.

What is enlightened to you?

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xFrockx

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Kickle]
#14977293 - 08/25/11 02:34 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I don't know if I am those things or not. How would I know if I was enlightened, ignorant, true, or false?

What is buddhahood?

What is wisdom?

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Kickle
A Growing Hope

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14977370 - 08/25/11 02:53 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

well not knowing is ignorance so if your words are anything to go by... :shrug:

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zZZz
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14977384 - 08/25/11 02:55 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
I don't know if I am those things or not. How would I know if I was enlightened, ignorant, true, or false?

good question, how would YOU know?

Quote:

xFrockx said:
What is buddhahood?

What is wisdom?

i think it can be put like this

buddhahood = IS

wisdom = IS

IS = the feeling inside you that lets you know you are here.

honestly i don't know what im saying anymore, but i think it means something, at least to me it does.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14977395 - 08/25/11 02:59 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Well then what made you question whether you are or not? random thought? haha

Quote:

xFrockx said:
I don't know if I am those things or not. How would I know if I was enlightened, ignorant, true, or false?

You won't have a problem with these conceptual distinctions if you izz haha

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Kickle]
#14977455 - 08/25/11 03:14 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Not knowing is ignorance? What do you know?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: zZZz]
#14977460 - 08/25/11 03:15 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

"good question, how would YOU know?"

I don't know.

"honestly i don't know what im saying anymore, but i think it means something, at least to me it does."

If you could explain what it means to you maybe it would help me understand.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14977465 - 08/25/11 03:15 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

lots of things :shrug:

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Hiro]
#14977474 - 08/25/11 03:17 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

"Well then what made you question whether you are or not? random thought? haha"

Well people talk about it a lot. Some claim to have it, some don't. I guess I just thought about it.

"You won't have a problem with these conceptual distinctions if you izz haha "

I don't have a problem with them, I just don't really know what it means for a person to be enlightened, ignorant, true, or false.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Kickle]
#14977498 - 08/25/11 03:24 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Do you know that not knowing is ignorance?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14977502 - 08/25/11 03:24 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Ah right, idk how someone could be true or false in any sense, but those are just labels. The person is just how the person is. ehhh haha

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Hiro]
#14977511 - 08/25/11 03:26 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

"The person is just how the person is."

I would tend to agree, but i don't know exactly what I'd be agreeing to. It makes me want to ask, "How is the person?"

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14977536 - 08/25/11 03:30 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Well, how they are would be a departure into the conceptual mind, away from seeing the "true nature" of things that might be considered something to do with enlightenment haha. They just are no more thought necessary looool

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14977557 - 08/25/11 03:36 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Do you know that not knowing is ignorance?

Hey, I know a fun game.
Let's take away context and ask baseless questions!

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Kickle]
#14977595 - 08/25/11 03:42 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Baseless? Can someone else confirm that my question made sense?

You said not knowing is ignorance. I asked about that.

I don't see how not knowing is ignorance. Not knowing is not knowing. Ignorance is ignorance.

Edited by xFrockx (08/25/11 03:48 PM)

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14977657 - 08/25/11 03:53 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

my responses are always imbedded in context and not independent from. Your questions strip away context and try to pin the statement as something that exists independent from the context it was presented in. Hence, you create a baseless question as there can be no answer independent from the context it was originally presented in.

When you strip away the context, a new context has to be created. If it is not created, the answer too is baseless, or without the context in which it originally came to exist within.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Kickle]
#14977667 - 08/25/11 03:55 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I would like to start again, because I am interested in what you have to say.

Could you explain how not knowing and being ignorant are the same? Or if that question is not appropriate, could you try to rephrase it so that it is? Feel free to change my words.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14977700 - 08/25/11 03:59 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

As many sages would say, silence is the answer.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: zZZz]
#14977703 - 08/25/11 04:00 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Can you explain?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14977712 - 08/25/11 04:01 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

because there is no answer

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: zZZz]
#14977721 - 08/25/11 04:03 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

But what if there is?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14977742 - 08/25/11 04:05 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

then you would know it and you wouldn't need to question

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: zZZz]
#14977747 - 08/25/11 04:06 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

But what if there is an answer and we don't know it automatically?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14977773 - 08/25/11 04:10 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

well then it probably wasn't a very good answer.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14977776 - 08/25/11 04:11 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Could you explain how not knowing and being ignorant are the same?

in meaning

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: zZZz]
#14977822 - 08/25/11 04:19 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

zZZz said:
Quote:

The Chronic said:
what?

lol close enough

coolaid....your avatar man

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Kickle]
#14977824 - 08/25/11 04:19 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Just as you used them there? So would I really be ignorant then if I don't know, or just by what you mean?

If it is just by what you mean, then why did you mean to call me ignorant? You didn't have to use that word at me, and given how its used generally did you mean it in a nice way?

I'm not really sure what to make of what you said, but I still don't know if I am ignorant. How could I not know if I am ignorant, if being ignorant is not knowing? Or am I just using my own meaning here?

What do you mean by ignorant?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14977843 - 08/25/11 04:22 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

enlightenment <----> ignorance
complete knowledge <----> complete lack of knowledge

i don't believe you are ignorant, IMO you just like to paint yourself that way.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Kickle]
#14977844 - 08/25/11 04:22 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

xFrockx do you really think you are going to find an answer here?

if you are the one that will accept the answers, then that means the answers are within you. you have to go find them yourself. how are we going to find them? probably from deep contemplation. not from books or people, but from experience itself.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Kickle]
#14977849 - 08/25/11 04:23 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

"enlightenment <----> ignorance
a spectrum of complete knowledge to a complete lack of knowledge

where do you find yourself at this precise moment? "

I have no idea.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: zZZz]
#14977856 - 08/25/11 04:25 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

"xFrockx do you really think you are going to find an answer here?"

I don't know if I will. We'll see.

"if you are the one that will accept the answers, then that means the answers are within you. you have to go find them yourself. how are we going to find them? probably from deep contemplation. not from books or people, but from experience itself. "

What if the answers aren't within me yet?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14977916 - 08/25/11 04:36 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

like i said, you have to go find out for yourself. out of this site, out of your computer, out of your mind, and into the same place where all the things like mushrooms take you. within yourself.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: zZZz]
#14977928 - 08/25/11 04:38 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

How will I know when I have found them?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14977943 - 08/25/11 04:40 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

when you stop questioning, thats when you'll know.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: zZZz]
#14977960 - 08/25/11 04:43 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

What if I just stop questioning?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Kickle]
#14977969 - 08/25/11 04:44 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

i don't believe you are ignorant, IMO you just like to paint yourself that way.

Actually from posts and private conversations I think Frock believes we are the ignorant ones. But that's so common that it hardly bears stating. :monkeydance:

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14978020 - 08/25/11 04:57 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
What if I just stop questioning?

i'll let you figure that one out.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14978022 - 08/25/11 04:57 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I don't think anyone is ignorant.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14978042 - 08/25/11 05:02 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

in buddhism ignorance often isn't a case of "not knowing something" but is instead a case of "knowing something that isn't real" - it's an additive function of being trapped in maya (illusion) not a subtractive function away from some formulated truth (as truth in buddhism neiter 'is' nor 'is not' - it's not a formulated concept - truth is what's left when ignorance is cleared away, our true nature / buddha-nature which can't be added/subtracted)

so when someone is ignorant in buddhism, it's often that they mistake appearances as being real, or something along those lines

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: deff]
#14978053 - 08/25/11 05:04 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Alright, so how do we know when we're dealing with reality and when we're dealing with an appearance?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14978067 - 08/25/11 05:08 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

if there's an appearance, it isn't "real" - all appearances are just manifestations of awareness - there's nothing wrong with cognizing them, the problem comes when we think appearances are inherent/independent of mind/etc - that is fundamental ignorance

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: deff]
#14978075 - 08/25/11 05:10 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

So what is real?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14978095 - 08/25/11 05:13 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

depends who you ask :lol:

also, what do you mean by real?

according to the mind-only school, the mind is real but everything else is an appearance. according to the madhyamaka school, mind is empty of inherent existence too, so nothing can be called 'real' in the way we usually think of real.

in madhyamaka they employ a process of 'non-affirmative negation' - which is basically negating other views of 'realness' without affirming an alternative view of realness. to the madhyamaka school, all views are ultimately false.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: deff]
#14978112 - 08/25/11 05:17 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I mean to ask "what is real" only by according to what you meant by the word real.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14978122 - 08/25/11 05:20 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

you have to actually think about these things, not just read and be quick to question.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14978133 - 08/25/11 05:22 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
I mean to ask "what is real" only by according to what you meant by the word real.

i don't think anything fits the definition of real that i figure most people use the word with

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: zZZz]
#14978139 - 08/25/11 05:23 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I think about these things all the time, I come here to talk to other people about these things. I'm sorry if you don't like it I can stop.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: deff]
#14978145 - 08/25/11 05:24 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

deff said:
Quote:

xFrockx said:
I mean to ask "what is real" only by according to what you meant by the word real.

i don't think anything fits the definition of real that i figure most people use the word with

So what do you think is real? How do you define it?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14978313 - 08/25/11 05:55 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
I think about these things all the time, I come here to talk to other people about these things. I'm sorry if you don't like it I can stop.

no no, of course not. you can say what you wan't i am not bothered. its just that what i see in your situation is more questions than answers. I see this thread as a never ending loop. i think you have many questions but it seems you are not putting much effort in trying to answer them. you sound confused, we probably all are, all im saying is that the more questions you have the less answers you'll get.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: zZZz]
#14978339 - 08/25/11 06:00 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I can't really help that I have questions, I just feel like I am being honest. I've tried to answer these questions and had questions about the answers and ended up with more questions and got more answers etc etc and I just keep on thinking about things and questioning myself as much as I honestly can and I keep on going because I don't know if I will ever be finished but I will keep going until I am, and am spent completely of questions and answers, if that can ever happen.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14978595 - 08/25/11 06:52 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I did that a lot in the past. The questions and answers never really stopped. All they did was make me more confused and restless. I just felt that it wasn't a healthy habit. This lead me from questioning to finding out where these questions actually came from. I think this is something you CAN answer. Well i found that most of it was coming from somewhere inside my head, like a gust of wind or something, and it got its power from where my heart is located. It was like a very low voice, my voice, but very very low, you feel it more than you hear it. It was bizarre but interesting. I started noticing it more and more and i got to a point where i could catch it without much effort and when i did i just ignored it. I tried stopping these thoughts many times but that didn't work out because every time i took a break they would come back almost instantly. So i found that the best solution was to just ignore them and not get involved. When you do this it is like waves that come and then break. I started practicing this technique and still do to this day. It has made my life and my questions much clearer to me. Although my intellect is pretty far off i feel my wisdom is pretty high up. I think this is the point of all this. Its not about trying to solve everything, its about not trying to solve everything. Its about peace. I think this is what we all want, is peace, and we can not do this with all this brain activity going on, which is just a waste of perfectly good energy, that could have gone to helping a brother out, or just to something meaningful that can serve not only you but others as well. Peace comes first, the answers to life and existence will follow and you will understand without effort. thats all it is, its about peace.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: zZZz]
#14978634 - 08/25/11 07:00 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I do agree that there is absolutely no reason to raise a hand against another human being. Nor is there any reason to harm another person. The problem I see is that even though there is no reason for these things, people make them up to justify when they do them, because often they either need to do them to get what they want, or it in itself it is what they want. The question of why we want what we want is one I have never found a satisfying answer to.

I don't know if it's about peace though. Depends on what you mean. If you mean to maintain our current state, then maybe, but people go to war to protect that. Essentially, people go to war for the promise of peace, I suppose. Then again, some people want to go to war and kill people :shrug:

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14978635 - 08/25/11 07:00 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
I think about these things all the time, I come here to talk to other people about these things. I'm sorry if you don't like it I can stop.

No you can't :lol:

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14978641 - 08/25/11 07:01 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I can. Doesn't mean that I want to. And btw you're not allowed to tell me I can't here. :hehehe:

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14978643 - 08/25/11 07:01 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I do agree that there is absolutely no reason to raise a hand against another human being.

By this reasoning there is no reason to do anything at all.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14978649 - 08/25/11 07:02 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Yep.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14978664 - 08/25/11 07:06 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

So it's basically an unrealistic stance as we all make reasons for acting.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14978677 - 08/25/11 07:08 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

What about controlled folly Icelander

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Hiro]
#14978691 - 08/25/11 07:11 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

What about it? If you are talking about as don Juan used the term he stated it only applies to interactions with other humans.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14978695 - 08/25/11 07:12 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I agree we make them, but the stance isn't unrealistic. Are the reasons we make justified by anything other than the physical force with which we support and defend them?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14978733 - 08/25/11 07:20 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
What about it? If you are talking about as don Juan used the term he stated it only applies to interactions with other humans.

Oh it's supposed to only apply to actions with other humans? Oh well still, it's the matter of doing stuff even though there isn't an actual reason/it's pointless folly

"Are the reasons we make justified by anything other than the physical force with which we support and defend them? "

Reasons and justifications seem like mental things that don't have a basis in reality. Justifications for things are just more reasons and stuff right which is all just thoughts

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14978768 - 08/25/11 07:28 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
I agree we make them, but the stance isn't unrealistic. Are the reasons we make justified by anything other than the physical force with which we support and defend them?

What does it matter why or how if we always do?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14978817 - 08/25/11 07:37 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I never said it did matter why or how. But the fact that it is we who do it, and that the decisions are not, as far as I can tell, justified. Becker calls them lies, but I don't think that is the right word necessarily.

There is no reason I know of to do anything beyond one we make for ourselves. And the only way to make one for ourselves is support and defend it with all our abilities at our disposal.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14978835 - 08/25/11 07:40 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

There is no reason I know of to do anything beyond one we make for ourselves.

This is all I'm saying. We all justify our reasons and it matters not a wit if there is not an objective reason for our actions. We is all about dat subjective shit. :holyshit:

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14978847 - 08/25/11 07:41 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

But how do our subjective reasons arise, if not through objective processes?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14978955 - 08/25/11 08:02 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

So?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14979026 - 08/25/11 08:16 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

So what is the subjective?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14979068 - 08/25/11 08:23 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Whatever you decide.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14980914 - 08/26/11 07:28 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I meant how are you deciding to use the word?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981151 - 08/26/11 08:52 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

subjectively

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14981159 - 08/26/11 08:54 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

And what does that mean?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981181 - 08/26/11 08:56 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I can only answer that subjectively.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14981200 - 08/26/11 09:02 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Which means what?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981236 - 08/26/11 09:12 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Whatever you take it to mean.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14981249 - 08/26/11 09:16 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Well how can I know how?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981252 - 08/26/11 09:17 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

It's all meaningless brah

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981258 - 08/26/11 09:18 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Well how can I know how?

Best guess.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Hiro]
#14981259 - 08/26/11 09:18 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

If it is all meaningless, then that implies that there is meaning, because there could not be a lack of meaning if there were not meaning to be lacked.

So what is meaningless? What is meaning?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14981265 - 08/26/11 09:19 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

How can I tell my best guess from my worst guess?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981271 - 08/26/11 09:20 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

subjectively

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14981274 - 08/26/11 09:21 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

How do I do that?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981282 - 08/26/11 09:22 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
If it is all meaningless, then that implies that there is meaning, because there could not be a lack of meaning if there were not meaning to be lacked.

So what is meaningless? What is meaning?

Well, it actually all just is, there isn't meaning or meaninglessness in "the real world." Maybe? I like how I say this stuff like fact haha

Edit: They are concepts

Edited by Hiro (08/26/11 09:24 AM)

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981308 - 08/26/11 09:28 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
How do I do that?

If I were to answer it would just be a subjective guess on my part.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14981336 - 08/26/11 09:39 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

So why do you keep telling me "subjectively" like it is an answer?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981357 - 08/26/11 09:45 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I you were enilghtened, you wouldn't be here asking dumb questions. Seriously

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Toltecatl]
#14981376 - 08/26/11 09:53 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

What questions have I asked that are dumb? What is a dumb question?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]

1
#14981381 - 08/26/11 09:55 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

What happened to your common sense?

--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Poid]
#14981383 - 08/26/11 09:55 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

What is common sense?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981388 - 08/26/11 09:56 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
So why do you keep telling me "subjectively" like it is an answer?

It's all I'm capable of.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14981394 - 08/26/11 09:58 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Is telling me a word I don't understand and that you apparently cannot explain the best you can do?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981395 - 08/26/11 09:58 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
What is common sense?

Frock is practicing his socratic dialog or what ever that is. I have refrained from reading any of it for this reason alone.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14981398 - 08/26/11 09:58 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I'm not doing jack shit when it comes to imitation. I don't know what the fuck common sense is.

Can you tell me what common sense is?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981404 - 08/26/11 10:00 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
What questions have I asked that are dumb? What is a dumb question?

Whether or not your are enlightened. Not trying to be mean, but enlightenment is understanding. I'm fairly certain the Buddah did not have to ask other Tibetans whether or not he was enlightened. That doesn't mean you should stop trying, though.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981408 - 08/26/11 10:01 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Common sense dictates that you look something up if you're interested in knowing what it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Toltecatl]
#14981415 - 08/26/11 10:02 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Which buddha?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981417 - 08/26/11 10:02 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I'm not doing jack shit

That seems to be the case.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Poid]
#14981422 - 08/26/11 10:04 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Poid I have a BA in philosophy and I don't know what common sense is. I've read Common Sense and I don't know what it is. So if you think a wikipedia article is going to inform me on the subject, please, please, do some reading and critical thinking yourself and think about how much you know what common sense is, if you want to.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14981426 - 08/26/11 10:04 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I love how you assume I have not read about common sense or heard many opinions on what it is. I still don't know what it is. Do you?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981454 - 08/26/11 10:09 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

All the "What is ____?" questions are lame, haha. What do you want a definition? So you can ask what that definition is as well? Words upon words that are supposed to somehow represent or be tied to reality or what we are experiencing, which is all there is outside of our mental conceptions and thoughts, and it just is as it is lol

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981458 - 08/26/11 10:10 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
So if you think a wikipedia article is going to inform me on the subject...

Yes, I do think a Wikipedia article is going to inform you on the concept because it's not ultra-complicated..you don't need to read a whole book on the concept to understand what it is, it can be explained very easily in just a few short words.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Hiro]
#14981467 - 08/26/11 10:12 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Why are they lame? What is lame?

I don't know what I'm looking for, but if someone's going to tell me something, I'm going to try to understand it. The questions are my attempt to understand. I have thought about these things and the more I do the less I feel I understand, so I keep asking, in the hope that maybe someday I will. I do listen, and I try to remember the way people explain these things. I see every exchange as something that can teach me something.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Poid]
#14981473 - 08/26/11 10:13 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Ok then, so tell me one thing that you know because of common sense.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981496 - 08/26/11 10:17 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I should avoid touching hot stoves.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Poid]
#14981504 - 08/26/11 10:19 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

And did common sense teach you that, or did touching hot things teach you that? Or did your parent telling you not to teach it to you?

If common sense did it, I am really at a wonder as to how. Can you explain?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981517 - 08/26/11 10:22 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

What do you mean "did common sense teach you that"? I learned that when I realized that touching hot things will result in a painful sensation..this knowledge itself is common sense.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Poid]
#14981531 - 08/26/11 10:26 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I asked you to tell me one thing you know because of common sense. You told me touching a hot stove.

Now you're telling me you know not to touch hot things because of the pain from it.

So which is it? Did common sense teach you it or did pain teach you it?

Also, you claim that the knowledge of touching hot things is a painful sensation is common sense. Does that mean that everyone knows this? I can tell you right now that it isn't true for many people, especially those with nerve or brain disorders. Do people with disabilities that stop them from knowing this lack common sense?

Are you still so sure common sense exists? Because I still don't know. I have never seen, heard, or felt common sense in action. I cannot deny that common sense exists here in this forum, but if you could help me to recognize it maybe I could believe you.

Edited by xFrockx (08/26/11 10:32 AM)

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981559 - 08/26/11 10:31 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
I don't know what I'm looking for, but if someone's going to tell me something, I'm going to try to understand it. The questions are my attempt to understand. I have thought about these things and the more I do the less I feel I understand, so I keep asking, in the hope that maybe someday I will.

How do you expect to "understand" something? Can you understand it? What is understanding something?

Also, common sense is a label(as are the other things like "pain teaching it") to describe him touching a stove, and not wanting to again. How I just described it is yet another way. These descriptions don't actually exist except as thoughts and concepts in the mind.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981561 - 08/26/11 10:32 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
I asked you to tell me one thing you know because of common sense.

Well I assumed you were trying to say "Give me an example of something that is common sense.".

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Also, you claim that the knowledge of touching hot things is a painful sensation is common sense. Does that mean that everyone knows this?

Nope, it just means that that knowledge is common among people.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Hiro]
#14981566 - 08/26/11 10:33 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

"How do you expect to "understand" something? Can you understand it? What is understanding something?"

These are the questions I ask myself every day.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Poid]
#14981570 - 08/26/11 10:34 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

"Nope, it just means that that knowledge is common among people. "

How do we decide what is common and what isn't? What percentages are we talking here?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981580 - 08/26/11 10:36 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

common: occurring or appearing frequently : familiar <a common sight>

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981591 - 08/26/11 10:39 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"How do you expect to "understand" something? Can you understand it? What is understanding something?"

These are the questions I ask myself every day.

For fun? haha

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981600 - 08/26/11 10:41 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
I love how you assume I have not read about common sense or heard many opinions on what it is. I still don't know what it is. Do you?

Yes. (maybe because I don't have a college degree like you do)

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Hiro]
#14981606 - 08/26/11 10:41 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I don't know the answers.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981612 - 08/26/11 10:43 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"How do you expect to "understand" something? Can you understand it? What is understanding something?"

These are the questions I ask myself every day.

Every day?? Are you slow on the uptake?

I think I know why V put you on ignore. :lol:

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14981623 - 08/26/11 10:44 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Tell me one thing you know because of common sense.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14981635 - 08/26/11 10:45 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I don't think I've ever had any uptake. What is uptake?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981642 - 08/26/11 10:46 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I never said I know anything due to common sense :lol:

. You sure seem to take what I say subjectively.

I said I know what is considered common sense.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981648 - 08/26/11 10:48 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I don't think I've ever had any uptake.

It would seem that way at times. :lol:

However it seems that you know how to speak in a language so it's likely there was some uptake, however small.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Poid]
#14981679 - 08/26/11 10:54 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Does that answer my question? When is something familiar?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14981681 - 08/26/11 10:55 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I have read and heard lots of ways people consider common sense, but I wouldn't claim to know what it is, because I don't.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981686 - 08/26/11 10:56 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

You don't have to. :shrug:

I do however.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981689 - 08/26/11 10:57 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Does that answer my question?

As a matter of fact, yes.

Quote:

xFrockx said:
When is something familiar?

familiar: frequently seen or experienced <a familiar theme>

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14981695 - 08/26/11 10:58 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

How do you know? Or why do you say you do if you don't?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Poid]
#14981702 - 08/26/11 11:00 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

"As a matter of fact, yes."

Does it? I asked when we know something is common, familiar, frequent, ubiquitous, whatever word you want to use. If you are standing on a cloudy day and you see raindrops, when do they become frequently falling? When does it transition from a mere drizzle to a frequent downpour?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981719 - 08/26/11 11:03 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"As a matter of fact, yes."

Does it? I asked when we know something is common, familiar, frequent.

You asked when we know something is common..I then gave you the definition of common (occurring or appearing frequently). I assumed you would be able to deduce from that definition that something is common when it occurs or appears frequently.

Quote:

xFrockx said:
If you are standing on a cloudy day and you see raindrops, when do they become frequently falling?

When they are frequently seen or experienced.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981721 - 08/26/11 11:03 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
How do you know? Or why do you say you do if you don't?

What was all that college for son? :shrug:

I know what is considered common sense. However I don't think common sense necessarily informs me of what is sensible.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Poid]
#14981726 - 08/26/11 11:04 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

How would you use your definition to determine when something in the world was common?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14981730 - 08/26/11 11:06 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

"What was all that college for son?"

It wasn't for saying things I didn't know.

"I know what is considered common sense. "

By who? Are you saying that people have the same notion of it?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981731 - 08/26/11 11:06 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

You're thinking, imagining differences and distinctions when there are actually("everything is one" sense here) not any, and this is what thinking is/does. It's categorizations and descriptions created and existing only in the mind. It all just is, no questions or words or descriptions or thinking necessary haha

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981736 - 08/26/11 11:08 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
How would you use your definition to determine when something in the world was common?

I would determine if that something occurs or appears frequently.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981751 - 08/26/11 11:12 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Which buddha?

Siddhartha Gautama

--------------------

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Poid]
#14981792 - 08/26/11 11:22 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

How would you actually decide? When would you know when something was occurring frequently?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Toltecatl]
#14981799 - 08/26/11 11:23 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Why the double facepalm?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981811 - 08/26/11 11:26 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
When would you know when something was occurring frequently?

I'm not sure why somebody who knows what "frequent" means would ask this question...

Where is your confusion?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Poid]
#14981818 - 08/26/11 11:29 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

My confusion is how do we know when something is occurring frequently? How do we quantify it?

If one person says walking their dog once a week is frequently, and another person says no, walking their dog twice a day is frequently, which one is walking their dog frequently?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Kickle]
#14981841 - 08/26/11 11:36 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

xFrockx said:
When would you know when something was occurring frequently?

I'm not sure why somebody who knows what "frequent" means would ask this question...

Where is your confusion?

Kickle got it right.

Quote:

Kickle said:
my responses are always imbedded in context and not independent from. Your questions strip away context and try to pin the statement as something that exists independent from the context it was presented in. Hence, you create a baseless question as there can be no answer independent from the context it was originally presented in.

When you strip away the context, a new context has to be created. If it is not created, the answer too is baseless, or without the context in which it originally came to exist within.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Toltecatl]
#14981850 - 08/26/11 11:37 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

If the context is there then there should be no problem explaining it. I am willing to listen, and I continued to ask him what he meant. He gave up on me.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981899 - 08/26/11 11:50 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"What was all that college for son?"

It wasn't for saying things I didn't know.

"I know what is considered common sense. "

By who? Are you saying that people have the same notion of it?

Then you said nothing at all in college? Impressive. Maybe you should try that here.

And no I'm not saying everyone has the same notion of common sense. :lol:

It's likely a majority in any society do, due to commonly taught programming but I'm not even saying that. I'm saying that common sense is what the individual believes it to be.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14981953 - 08/26/11 12:01 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

"Then you said nothing at all in college? Impressive. Maybe you should try that here."

I never said that, I said it wasn't for that. Which after I thought about it, I really also don't know that. And I have tried that here for a good bit.

"I'm saying that common sense is what the individual believes it to be."

Like subjective? Is everything what we believe it to be?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14981971 - 08/26/11 12:06 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
My confusion is how do we know when something is occurring frequently? How do we quantify it?

If one person says walking their dog once a week is frequently, and another person says no, walking their dog twice a day is frequently, which one is walking their dog frequently?

Yes things are what we believe them to be. (for us)

No one to my knowledge knows what objectively is true.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14982003 - 08/26/11 12:15 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Can I believe you out of existence?

Can I move stuff with my mind?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14982012 - 08/26/11 12:17 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
My confusion is how do we know when something is occurring frequently? How do we quantify it?

If one person says walking their dog once a week is frequently, and another person says no, walking their dog twice a day is frequently, which one is walking their dog frequently?

Whether or not something is considered frequent is a matter of subjective opinion.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14982027 - 08/26/11 12:20 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Can I believe you out of existence?

Can I move stuff with my mind?

How would I know?

Yes things are what we believe them to be. (for us)

And by this I mean what we subjectively believe. We believe it's true and so that's what it feels like to the individual. No way to know if it's objectively true.

Are you trying to not understand? Cause you're really good at it. :thumbup:

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Poid]
#14982320 - 08/26/11 01:48 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

So common sense is a matter of subjective opinion?

So what is common about it? Does it really exist?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14982355 - 08/26/11 01:54 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

I'm just not understanding you.

You said that things are what we believe them to be, and then you said that meant only that what we subjectively believe. I'm really not sure what you meant there, because it seems like the meaning doesn't match the original statement to me.

What do we believe stuff about? Other beliefs? Would that not mean that all beliefs are circular, since they would all be based on nothing other than other beliefs? Or can we have beliefs about things which aren't beliefs? Can I have a belief in a chair that I'm sitting on? Is the chair a belief?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14982357 - 08/26/11 01:55 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
If the context is there then there should be no problem explaining it. I am willing to listen, and I continued to ask him what he meant. He gave up on me.

well IMO you want to be removed from the context so your questions reflect that removal. you don't want to weigh in with your subjective experience and so phrase your questions as though you have not experienced what another has. The context remains on one side then and never bridges the gap. It's your choice not to provide your own context. But don't expect others to keep doing the tango of communication with only one person actually doing all the steps. :shrug:

The communication of context isn't perfect and there's no way to make it so. People lie, people have different experiences, people read in what they desire. No matter how many questions you ask, you will never have any context but your own to provide for words. We [other humans] are just as empty [of intrinsic existence] as all other objects. There is no way to get us to reveal some intrinsic existence that ties us all together through words but most are happy to share what depends.

If you can't relate it's probably enough to just say you can't relate :lol:

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Kickle]
#14982528 - 08/26/11 02:22 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

"well IMO you want to be removed from the context so your questions reflect that removal."

I don't know if its possible for me to be removed from the context of a conversation I am having. I want to understand other people on their terms as much as I can. I am happy to listen and understand the words of other people, if I can and they are willing to explain if I need more help.

"you don't want to weigh in with your subjective experience and so phrase your questions as though you have not experienced what another has."

I'll be the first to talk about what I do day to day, basing conclusions on that though I find to be a slippery practice.

"There is no way to get us to reveal some intrinsic existence that ties us all together through words but most are happy to share what depends."

I'll be the first to share food or drinks with other people if I'm able, but I won't force anyone to accept my words :shrug:

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14982646 - 08/26/11 02:48 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

I don't know if its possible for me to be removed from the context of a conversation I am having. I want to understand other people on their terms as much as I can. I am happy to listen and understand the words of other people, if I can and they are willing to explain if I need more help.

I think that's good and true. But at some point enough is enough. There is no perfect understanding of another because an experience can only be experienced and not told. The experience itself will never be fully revealed through words. But you have your own experiences that you can bring in. It's a shot in the dark every time because individual experiences vary. But I'm betting that just by virtue of being a human, there are a lot of similarities.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14982731 - 08/26/11 03:05 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
I'm just not understanding you.

You said that things are what we believe them to be, and then you said that meant only that what we subjectively believe. I'm really not sure what you meant there, because it seems like the meaning doesn't match the original statement to me.

What do we believe stuff about? Other beliefs? Would that not mean that all beliefs are circular, since they would all be based on nothing other than other beliefs? Or can we have beliefs about things which aren't beliefs? Can I have a belief in a chair that I'm sitting on? Is the chair a belief?

You must be responding to someone else's posts at least in part. :confused:

I don't remember saying anything about circular stuff. Maybe your socratic process has got you in some kind of mental cul de sac. :shrug:

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14982862 - 08/26/11 03:28 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Can you at least be specific about how what I said doesn't follow what you said? You're making some broad claims, I'm just trying to reason them out.

"You said that things are what we believe them to be, and then you said that meant only that what we subjectively believe."

I was trying to restate what you said there. Did you get that much?

And I was trying to ask you about what you said here:

"What do we believe stuff about? Other beliefs?"

And here I was anticipating the response:

"Would that not mean that all beliefs are circular, since they would all be based on nothing other than other beliefs?"

And then I asked about the alternative:

"Or can we have beliefs about things which aren't beliefs? Can I have a belief in a chair that I'm sitting on? Is the chair a belief?"

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]

1
#14982875 - 08/26/11 03:29 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

out of curiosity, has anything been achieved through this dialogue? :laugh:

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Kickle]
#14982874 - 08/26/11 03:29 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

"But at some point enough is enough."

When is that point and what do you do when it is reached?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: deff]
#14982879 - 08/26/11 03:29 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

How would one determine if anything was achieved?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]

1
#14982911 - 08/26/11 03:34 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

If you were an alien this nonsense might be worth some more explanation.

I've been quite clear all along and no one else here seems to be confused about what I'm saying.

At a certain point when it seem obvious that one either does not want to understand (no matter how much they protest they do) or doesn't have the mental capacity for understanding it is best not to try anymore.

Carry on with your Socratic method or whatever that is. :laugh:

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14982914 - 08/26/11 03:35 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
So common sense is a matter of subjective opinion?

So what is common about it? Does it really exist?

Why would it not be common, or be non-existent just because it's a matter of subjective opinion?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14982968 - 08/26/11 03:41 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

I tried as hard as I could to make things clear. Feel free to give up on me, it wouldn't be the first time.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Poid]
#14982973 - 08/26/11 03:42 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Why would it be common or existent if it is?

Where is common sense?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14982989 - 08/26/11 03:44 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Where is common sense?

Where every other human sense is..in the subjective experiences of humans.

--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Poid]
#14983034 - 08/26/11 03:51 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

What do you mean "in" them?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14983047 - 08/26/11 03:53 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Why would it be common or existent if it is?

idk, why would it be common or existent if it is?

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Where is common sense?

idk, where is common sense?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14983056 - 08/26/11 03:55 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
What do you mean "in" them?

What I mean is that common sense exists as part of subjective human experiences..maybe saying that it exists "in" subjective human experiences was an incorrect way of putting it.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14983089 - 08/26/11 04:02 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"But at some point enough is enough."

When is that point and what do you do when it is reached?

depends

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14983170 - 08/26/11 04:15 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
I tried as hard as I could to make things clear. Feel free to give up on me, it wouldn't be the first time.

I really don't believe you, it's that simple. You've lied outright to me recently on another issue and I don't trust your posting integrity.

Nothing personal.

Carry on.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: zZZz]
#14983171 - 08/26/11 04:15 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

To both, I don't know.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Poid]
#14983190 - 08/26/11 04:16 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Does the human subjective experience have parts?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14983213 - 08/26/11 04:19 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
To both, I don't know.

why don't you know?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14983216 - 08/26/11 04:19 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Of course it does..every single unique perception is a part of the subjective human experience.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14983218 - 08/26/11 04:19 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Don't believe me? Did I ask you to believe me?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14983266 - 08/26/11 04:26 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Who cares if you asked. You lie. :shrug:

It's going to be a factor in how I relate to you.

Edited by Icelander (08/26/11 04:51 PM)

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14983473 - 08/26/11 05:09 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

anyways to answer the OP - i think you have some enlightenment for sure frock - as i think your doubt about everything shows (imo). you seem quite unconditioned from the usual human social programming. what matters most though is if you're at peace and content i think, hopefully you are :sun:

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Poid]
#14983522 - 08/26/11 05:19 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

How are the parts divided?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: zZZz]
#14983529 - 08/26/11 05:21 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

To the first it is because I don't know why it would be common or existent. To the second I have never seen or otherwise experienced common sense, so I don't know where it is.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: deff]
#14983531 - 08/26/11 05:21 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14983539 - 08/26/11 05:23 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

What will it do?

How is what I say tainted by what I have said before?

Are you prejudiced against everything I say, even if it is reasonable?

Is that reasonable of you to do?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14983540 - 08/26/11 05:24 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
How are the parts divided?

I'm honestly not really sure what you're trying to ask me here...

Do you acknowledge that consciousness has parts?

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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Poid]
#14983545 - 08/26/11 05:25 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

I don't know if there are parts, I could not say truthfully that I have ever experienced them.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14983558 - 08/26/11 05:28 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

So when you look at a painting, you don't see different parts, but rather, you just see one thing without individual parts?

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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Poid]
#14983604 - 08/26/11 05:39 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

I don't see paintings as one thing necessarily, though I talk about them that way. I don't know if there are things. I can't honestly say that I've ever experienced any real divisions in the world.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14985519 - 08/27/11 05:03 AM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Common sense: Given a set of possible choices in an arbitrary situation, a particular subset of those choices will most likely be chosen by the intelligent majority because that subset most enhances survivability/quality of life. That subset of choices is "common sense".

Not to be rude but switch on your brain, it takes two to have an intelligent discussion. You can't expect someone else to perpetually fill the holes in your knowledge when you can do it yourself just fine.

You can ask these same close-ended questions on Google and you'll get your answer much snappier than on here.

--------------------

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: crkhd]
#14985578 - 08/27/11 05:53 AM (8 months, 29 days ago)

duh and thank you. :lol:

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]

1
#14985645 - 08/27/11 06:39 AM (8 months, 29 days ago)

This thread is an energy game and I think you use this technique to draw in energy, Frocker

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: crkhd]
#14985706 - 08/27/11 07:19 AM (8 months, 29 days ago)

"Common sense: Given a set of possible choices in an arbitrary situation, a particular subset of those choices will most likely be chosen by the intelligent majority because that subset most enhances survivability/quality of life. That subset of choices is "common sense"."

This is an interesting definition, I've not seen one exactly like it. However, I don't see how common sense has any part in our decision making when it comes to make decisions about the survivability and quality of life. Don't we make these decisions based on what we've learned about the word around us, namely, what we believe to be the ideas which will enhance our survivability and quality of life. Also, you say "intelligent majority" but what does that mean, since often I hear that the "intelligent" are the people who most lack "common sense"?

"Not to be rude but switch on your brain"

If you have to start what you say with "not to be rude"...

Where's the switch?

Am I not participating in this conversation an awful lot?

"You can't expect someone else to perpetually fill the holes in your knowledge when you can do it yourself just fine."

How do you know I can do it myself? I don't honestly know if I can, at least if I am being as honest as possible.

"You can ask these same close-ended questions on Google and you'll get your answer much snappier than on here. "

You don't think I've done that already?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14985709 - 08/27/11 07:19 AM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Can you tell me why you agree with that post?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: FishOilTheKid]
#14985711 - 08/27/11 07:21 AM (8 months, 29 days ago)

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.

I am not doing this to play with people, I'm just trying to respond to posts as honestly as I can and thinking them through as much as possible, believe it or not.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14986328 - 08/27/11 10:32 AM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.

I am not doing this to play with people, I'm just trying to respond to posts as honestly as I can and thinking them through as much as possible, believe it or not.

You are using frustrating language and frustrating questions to frustrate people and draw in their energy. You're creating a void by appealing to ignorance, or at least the inability to 'know,' and it sucks on a metaphysical tip. Knob job. :blowme:

You can render language useless. Fine. Fuck it.

But this is funny... :lol:

Quote:

I don't know if I am enlightened or not.

Yeah... You just wouldn't be able to know. Or wouldn't be able to determine just what it is or much else involving language concerning it and more, admittedly. Good. Moving on then. Shit.

Its not a fucking rhetorical filibuster style sidestepping of your responsibility as a person of understanding don't-know-if-you-are-enlightened-one.

BA, huh? :hmm:

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: FishOilTheKid]
#14986563 - 08/27/11 11:23 AM (8 months, 29 days ago)

"Its not a fucking rhetorical filibuster style sidestepping of your responsibility as a person of understanding don't-know-if-you-are-enlightened-one."

I try to be as brief as possible, wouldn't a filibuster style be one where I talked at length? Is that what you meant? I'm just generally confused about this sentence, can you reword it?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14986830 - 08/27/11 12:23 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

HATERS GONNA HATE

--------------------
TheMushroomJesus said:
"Doesnt that actually make the most sense? These are intelligent beings that are capable of creating anything, including what you call 'science'. And the suicide cults are a sacrifice to these intelligent beings."

"If any of you knew about Applewhite you would know that he represented JESUS..as we all do. He believed he and all of us were jesus to the point he would kill himself to get the message out...while your here..typing away pointless thoughts on a website pretending to make a difference, when in reality, you will never come close to making as much of a difference as even Applewhite."

:deepman:

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14986933 - 08/27/11 12:41 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
I can't honestly say that I've ever experienced any real divisions in the world.

This is so much bullshit.

--------------------
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Poid]
#14986995 - 08/27/11 12:51 PM (8 months, 29 days ago)

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Poid]
#14987136 - 08/27/11 01:25 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

I don't think so, in everything I've ever done I've never thought of things in terms of this or that in my moment to moment experience. When thinking in terms of future or past it works like that, yes, but to a large extent at least moment to moment my actions are automatic and there is no perception of any division although as frock says, I talk about it like there is.

--------------------
"So man's insanity is heaven's sense; and wandering from all mortal reason, man comes at last to that celestial thought, which, to reason, is absurd and frantic; and weal or woe, feels then uncompromised, indifferent as his God." - Herman Melville

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14987190 - 08/27/11 01:38 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
...there is no perception of any division...

So you have never experienced a perception that is qualitatively distinct from another? Bullshit.

--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14987193 - 08/27/11 01:38 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

most automatic living reveals little of anything. If one becomes even a little more aware the most interesting, and often frightening things are revealed.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Poid]
#14987205 - 08/27/11 01:41 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Grapefruit said:
...there is no perception of any division...

So you have never experienced a perception that is qualitatively distinct from another? Bullshit.

Well it's hardly black or white. It's very blurred and without specifics so how can I say it is distinct?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14987212 - 08/27/11 01:42 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

You don't see the sharp distinction between black and white? I don't believe you.

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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14987224 - 08/27/11 01:45 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
most automatic living reveals little of anything. If one becomes even a little more aware the most interesting, and often frightening things are revealed.

I don't find I'm really interested enough to maintain conscious awareness but I really find that to be a seperate point, even when tripping things seem to happen automatically.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Poid]
#14987248 - 08/27/11 01:50 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
You don't see the sharp distinction between black and white? I don't believe you.

But that only happens on computer screens, nowhere else. Maybe then I do but among the vast majority of sensory signals I don't notice it that way. Obviously there is a difference between this vase and that vase but not one my mind can see because I have no prior conditions that any "different" vase must meet, that's just the way I seem to process things.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14987257 - 08/27/11 01:52 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

How about a car speeding toward you and one parked on the corner?

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14987271 - 08/27/11 01:57 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

My mind seems to process it as informationally seperate but the experience isn't perceived this way.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14987276 - 08/27/11 01:58 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:

Poid said:
You don't see the sharp distinction between black and white? I don't believe you.

But that only happens on computer screens, nowhere else.

I find it hard to believe that we're even discussing this..either you experience a variety of unique sensations, or you don't and you've only experienced one single unwavering sensation throughout your entire life. You seem to be trying to convince me of the latter, and I find that to be a tad odd.

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Maybe then I do but among the vast majority of sensory signals I don't notice it that way. Obviously there is a difference between this vase and that vase but not one my mind can see because I have no prior conditions that any "different" vase must meet, that's just the way I seem to process things.

So your mind can't see the difference between a speeding car, and a parked one? Have you ever tried to cross a street?

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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14987286 - 08/27/11 02:01 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
My mind seems to process it as informationally seperate but the experience isn't perceived this way.

What is it perceived as, then?

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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Poid]
#14987294 - 08/27/11 02:04 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

I certainly didn't say I'd only experienced one single unwavering sensation. It's just that my mind processess it as a general mix and doesn't seem to be interested in any difference or really be able to pin point anything. Informationally it does this all the time for functionality but in the way it actually happens in the end it just happens as an on going mix without being interested in the difference. I may be describing it badly or just wrong because we are probably seeing things in the exact same way, it's just the way I'd describe it.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14987315 - 08/27/11 02:09 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

For instance without knowing the difference between any plant they are just plants, you must experience plants like this, you don't analyse any difference, it's just a jumble untill you are up close and can see the ends. That's where knowledge steps in and makes something out of it. If you didn't have any knowledge you wouldn't be able to see this difference, the knowledge just makes distinction and pattern out of it on another level. So at base level it is seen without a difference, even when it is informationally processed differently the brain doesn't actually see it like that. That's my best attempt at describing what I'm trying to say.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14987320 - 08/27/11 02:11 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

Obviously there is a difference between this vase and that vase but not one my mind can see...

My mind seems to process it as informationally seperate...

Are you contradicting yourself here?

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
It's just that my mind processess it as a general mix...

If it is a "mix", then this implies that there are distinctions.

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
I may be describing it badly or just wrong because we are probably seeing things in the exact same way, it's just the way I'd describe it.

I don't think we experience things in the exact same way..I clearly perceive the distinctions between all of my unique sensations, and I wouldn't even dare say that such distinctions either don't exist, or are difficult to pinpoint. :shrug:

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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Poid]
#14987367 - 08/27/11 02:23 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

I feel ya Grapefruit, haha.

Our experience through life is really just a jumbled mass of interconnected sensations(colors, sounds, feelings, but even to say this much is to add on an interpretation and come away from the "base level" Grapefruit is talking about, if I understand him at all haha). It's just everything(sensation which comprises your reality/experience) at once right now, all the time. But, we can think and interpret all of this and that's where we make the distinctions when there are actually none.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14987484 - 08/27/11 02:56 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Its not a fucking rhetorical filibuster style sidestepping of your responsibility as a person of understanding don't-know-if-you-are-enlightened-one."

I try to be as brief as possible, wouldn't a filibuster style be one where I talked at length? Is that what you meant? I'm just generally confused about this sentence, can you reword it?

Man it seems as if this is your mode of operation. And it is fucking weird. Unless your method is obvious and your intention dishonest with these people and me. By filibustering I meant you are asking questions that have obvious answers while possessing the answers and denying the existence of a path to discovery of those answers. Even attempting to destroy conventional relatively simplistic everyday linguistics. Yet continuing to ask questions that are clearly meant to derail thought progressing toward conclusion. This is an attempt to have the opponent concede these points!? Really?! Is this how they taught you to win a philosophical debate in school? You've got a BA... Using conventional means for the sake of conversation I'm sure you can 'know more' at will if you are willing to communicate as routine individuals do. You know, accepting language as a base where we can derive common understanding.

Common sense... :lol:

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: FishOilTheKid]
#14987521 - 08/27/11 03:05 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

yea i always thought there was something fishy about all this.

:dopefish:

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"The best quote of all time"

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: zZZz]
#14987602 - 08/27/11 03:25 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

The other thing is I kind of dig this if Frock, you are attempting to build a pattern of resonant belief about who you are using the minds on the shroomery. One in where nothing is known, therefore, no answers exist, therefore you can have your separation somehow but still leech energy by creating voids to be filled by others. You'd be learning the whole time (hell even getting your BA) but all the while exclaiming, "I know that I know nothing. There is nothing to be known. There is no way to know if anything can be known."

:awegroove:

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: FishOilTheKid]
#14987666 - 08/27/11 03:40 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

hey Frock stop sucking our energy! :paranoid:

i could have sworn i felt a little weak when i entered this thread.

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"The best quote of all time"

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: zZZz]
#14987750 - 08/27/11 04:01 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

I've never felt any energy loss when in his threads. I do get bored however.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14987780 - 08/27/11 04:08 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

It must have been all the typing i did. What a waste of perfectly good knowledge.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14987807 - 08/27/11 04:13 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

Well... I'll tell you what...

They radiated me with something that burned and melted. Dead serious.

And now my energetic body will not stay together its like a fluid that fills my body like a balloon. And, I'm very sensitive.

Every time wit dis wise guy its a huge pull.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: FishOilTheKid]
#14987813 - 08/27/11 04:16 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

good vibes :heart:

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: FishOilTheKid]
#14987888 - 08/27/11 04:36 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

FishOilTheKid said:
Well... I'll tell you what...

They radiated me with something that burned and melted. Dead serious.

And now my energetic body will not stay together its like a fluid that fills my body like a balloon. And, I'm very sensitive.

Every time wit dis wise guy its a huge pull.

You forgot to wear the tin foil hat. :nono:

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: FishOilTheKid]
#14987948 - 08/27/11 04:48 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

FishOilTheKid said:
Well... I'll tell you what...

They radiated me with something that burned and melted. Dead serious.

And now my energetic body will not stay together its like a fluid that fills my body like a balloon. And, I'm very sensitive.

Every time wit dis wise guy its a huge pull.

im probably one of the few that will take you serious with this comment.
Ironically I also don't think frock is doing anything to engage your sense like this.

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: Icelander]
#14987956 - 08/27/11 04:49 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

it could happen :shrug:

what if you were trippin balls and you started a thread about it and someone wrote "i hope you have a bad trip". do you think his good trip would turn into a bad trip?

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"The best quote of all time"

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xFrockx

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: FishOilTheKid]
#14988004 - 08/27/11 05:00 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

"Man it seems as if this is your mode of operation. And it is fucking weird. Unless your method is obvious and your intention dishonest with these people and me. By filibustering I meant you are asking questions that have obvious answers while possessing the answers and denying the existence of a path to discovery of those answers. Even attempting to destroy conventional relatively simplistic everyday linguistics. Yet continuing to ask questions that are clearly meant to derail thought progressing toward conclusion. This is an attempt to have the opponent concede these points!? Really?! Is this how they taught you to win a philosophical debate in school? You've got a BA... Using conventional means for the sake of conversation I'm sure you can 'know more' at will if you are willing to communicate as routine individuals do. You know, accepting language as a base where we can derive common understanding."

I really don't know the answers to these questions, that's really the only part I can argue with here. Oh I also don't talk with people on here to win debates. I don't know if it is really possible to "win" a debate outside of convincing someone else of your point. Since I have nothing to convince anyone of, I can never win, really. But when when I talk to someone and start to question them, often people think I'm being arrogant and just trying to win the argument, even though often they are the ones trying to convince me of something.

You said my threads made you feel funny? I think sometimes my words do that (not the first time someone had mentioned this kind of thing to me) because to be honest, I don't know if anyone really knows anything, and I think to some extent we are all aware of that, but also to some extent some people are utterly unable to admit it because they are committed to things. I think sometimes I can get people angry because when I question it threatens these kinds of things. Maybe, I don't know.

It works differently than trying to shout my opinion over another person, I think, because it can bring up the insecurity we have in the things we believe rather than claiming to believe and forcing the conversation into a battle. If I was disagreeing with people we'd have a nice back and fourth, but since I don't have much to say I tend to put a lot of burden on those trying to convince me. Maybe that is why I suck so much.

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Icelander
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: zZZz]
#14988024 - 08/27/11 05:04 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

zZZz said:
it could happen

what if you were trippin balls and you started a thread about it and someone wrote "i hope you have a bad trip". do you think his good trip would turn into a bad trip?

Nope, maybe for someone however.

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FishOilTheKid
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14988065 - 08/27/11 05:14 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

Yeah, I'm dealing with allot these days so... Dunno.

Quote:

You said my threads made you feel funny?

Nope.

I just have this feeling that you are being dishonest. And there is some psychological message board vampirism parasitism going on under here.

Quote:

I don't know if anyone really knows anything,

If a tree falls in a forest it makes a sound.

What is sound?
Do we really know what a tree is?
At what point does it actually fall?

Why this^

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xFrockx

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: FishOilTheKid]
#14988099 - 08/27/11 05:22 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

"I just have this feeling that you are being dishonest. And there is some psychological message board vampirism parasitism going on under here."

What am I being dishonest about?

"If a tree falls in a forest it makes a sound.

What is sound?
Do we really know what a tree is?
At what point does it actually fall?

Why this^ "

Aren't those the questions one could ask of that proverb? The first seems the most relevant and the one I would ask. If we say a sound is what an ear has of the vibrations in the air, then the answer would be no. If we say a sound is just the vibrations in the air, then yes. The proverb does not specify, so the questions bring to light the basis of the riddle. We can't honestly answer the question unless we know what is being asked, can we?

As far as knowing what a tree is, do we really? We can give examples all day. but if you had to write down all necessary and sufficient conditions for being a tree, could you find any that would suit all the things we call trees?

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FishOilTheKid
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14988227 - 08/27/11 05:54 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

Sound exists regardless of the ear due to it being the actual compression and decompression of the air caused by the source vibration. We don't agree that there is an accepted definition of sound. And, science has outlined rather well the specifics of the plant world and their differences and what makes them a particular term or name.

That wasn't a question.

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xFrockx

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: FishOilTheKid]
#14988377 - 08/27/11 06:25 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

"Sound exists regardless of the ear due to it being the actual compression and decompression of the air caused by the source vibration. "

We can say sound is either what happens when we actually hear things, or we can say that sound is the compression/decompression of the air. What is sound? Is the question that brings these options to light.

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FishOilTheKid
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14988472 - 08/27/11 06:44 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

You just said it... We hear sound. Sound does not happen when we hear things. We hear things because sound happens. We evolved ears because sound happens. At some point there were just a bunch of waves and something said I would like to interpret those waves. Same reason we have eyes and so on... I don't go down that semantic detour with sound because I know what it is.

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xFrockx

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: FishOilTheKid]
#14988485 - 08/27/11 06:48 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

"I don't go down that semantic detour with sound because I know what it is."

You're just going down you're own semantic road aren't you? All I'm doing is sitting at the point where the semantic roads diverge and looking down to see where they lead.

When someone talks about listening to the "sound of music" are they talking about the air or their experience? When someone in a lab is talking about the sound generated in an experiment are they talking about the air or what they experience?

Who is wrong? What is sound? Is it only one or only the other?

If a tree falls in a forest, and no one is around, does it make a large oceanic inlet?
Does it make vibrations in the air?
Is it heard?

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FishOilTheKid
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14988498 - 08/27/11 06:53 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

They are hearing and that is the function that we have adapted to interpret the stimulus of SPL or sound pressure level. It is only ever in the air and the ear drum acts as a diaphragm resonating sympathetically with the wave pattern. Any one subjective experience is besides the point and unreliable. Calling 'hearing' 'sound' is a mistake.

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xFrockx

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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: FishOilTheKid]
#14988510 - 08/27/11 06:56 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

Why is it a mistake and not just another use of the word?

Do words have a correct meaning written down somewhere? Dictionaries provide several, but I wouldn't say these are the objectively correct uses or anything. They're like Jello in the water of language.

Here's what we have for sound though:

sound
1 [sound] Show IPA
noun
1.
the sensation produced by stimulation of the organs of hearing by vibrations transmitted through the air or other medium.
2.
mechanical vibrations transmitted through an elastic medium, traveling in air at a speed of approximately 1087 feet (331 meters) per second at sea level.
3.
the particular auditory effect produced by a given cause: the sound of music.
4.
any auditory effect; any audible vibrational disturbance: all kinds of sounds.
5.
a noise, vocal utterance, musical tone, or the like: the sounds from the next room.

:shrug:

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FishOilTheKid
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: xFrockx]
#14988591 - 08/27/11 07:12 PM (8 months, 28 days ago)

Sound the experience, fine, I get ya.

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PsychedelicWizard
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Re: I don't know if I am enlightened or not. [Re: FishOilTheKid]
#14990400 - 08/28/11 08:44 AM (8 months, 28 days ago)

you cannot define enlightenment, once you have reached that high of a consciousness, I don't believe you define things or label them. Nothing is opinionated, and therefore everything is simple as it is and as it should be, perfect.

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When the student is ready, the master appears. ~Buddhist Proverb
:pipesmoke:

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