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 teamkiller
It was ahmazing
 
Registered: 06/06/11
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 bread baking help 
#14723438 - 07/06/11 01:42 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK. I'm approaching 2 dozen loafs and they almost all turned out like crap.
My number 1 problem i can't figure out google search terms to explain it.
my bread is full of these little pockets where instead of being fluffy and normal bread looking, it looks very dense and almost mushy. I figured it was under cooking it, but i just took a loaf out that i cooked for 90 minutes on 475, basically baked it to death and it still had these pockets in it.
my other re-occuring problem which comes and goes nonsensically is my bread tasting like flour. I don't know how to describe it better than that. I've played around with yeast amounts and additives, and i can't figure out how come sometime my bread tastes like eating a mouthful of flour.
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 koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 20,261
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Problem one seems like a mixing/kneading problem. How do you knead, and what is your rising procedure (how often + how long do you let rise and at what temperature, do you knead between risings, etc.)?
Problem two might be related to #1, but the description is a bit vague. What recipe are you using?
Some more details regarding your baking process would certainly help troubleshooting the issue!
Having said that, from personal experience, the following procedure works fairly well:
- Make a pre-dough (biga) one or two days in advance: mix yeast, a couple of spoons of flour and a couple of spoons of water and mix into a soggy mixture; stir once or twice a day to keep ingredients mixed well.
- On the day of baking, mix your bread ingredients, and instead of the yeast use the biga. Knead very well; at least 10 minutes if you knead by hand. The dough must have a silky texture.
- Let rise; time depends on temperature, but in general, let the dough double in volume.
- After rising for the first time, knead well for a couple of minutes to remove the large pockets of air.
- Let rise again. Make sure you cover the dough so it doesn't dry out.
- Knead the air out of the dough once more.
- Baking: I understand from professional bakers that they start the baking process at a high temperature (like 450F) for 10 minutes or so, so the bread expands rapidly; note that the initial expanding of the bread (the process that makes the bread nice and fluffy) is the result of some of the water in the dough converting into steam, which creates bubbles in the dough. After the first 10 minutes, continue baking at a lower temperature, which can be as low as 300F (or even a bit less). Wipe some water on the bread for a nice crust.
Regardless of who you ask or what book you read, the conclusion is always the same: practice makes perfect. So bake, evaluate, bake again, evaluate, bake again, etc. etc.
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Brainiac
Rogue Scientist
Registered: 04/29/06
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Re: bread baking help [Re: koraks]
#14724330 - 07/06/11 08:07 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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 Fair is Fair 
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trillby33
Registered: 07/08/08
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Re: bread baking help [Re: Brainiac]
#14734492 - 07/08/11 03:35 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Definitely knead more. Also, I've found that recipes which use honey instead of sugar as a food source for the yeast give me fewer problems. Of course, I'm a little biased, I'm a huge honey lover - but still, they seem to have a better consistency, I think the extra gooeyness helps.
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todesengel
the chinese chicken
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Re: bread baking help [Re: trillby33]
#14740013 - 07/09/11 10:23 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Too much kneeding will result in a hard dough that is tough and doesn't expand much while cooking. Too little kneeding and your dough is a mush like you never developed the gluten.
Also, make sure you use a thermometer on your boiling water that you sit your yeast and sugar into. If the water is too hot your just killing the yeast. If its too cold you aren't getting the full potential of the yeast. 110-115 just like the yeast says. I usually do 117 because my thermometer lags behind the real temperature.
Always start dough by using a mixer(with the right mixing attachtment dont slice it up with blades!). Once you have about a cup to a cup and a half of flour left to mix in, stop using the mixer and start kneeding by hand. You should only have to kneed for maybe 10 minutes at this point. You will know when the dough is good because it will be slightly sticky but not sticky enough where it comes off on your fingers when you touch it. Like you can slap it and feel it peel away from your hand but should leave no dough on your fingers. Also when you start kneeding a good technique is to just press flour into the dough with all your fingers downwards. Then fold the dough in half over itself and repeat. Make sure to always keep refolding over itself in different directions.
I went through this same type of thing when I was mastering pizza dough. Kneeding and the temperature of the boiling water you add your yeast to is the key. Also make sure you let your boiling water yeast honey mixture sit until it foams up at the top. Should take about 10 minutes.
I don't know how much different making bread to pizza dough is but if you don't rise your bread well enough it will also come out hard not airy. I always rise my pizza dough in the oven at 200 in a large glass salad bowl with a damp kitchen cloth over the top. AFter about 30 minutes the towel is dry I take my dough out and separate into 4 parts and rise it again for another 40 minutes. Turns out perfect every single time.
Edited by todesengel (07/09/11 10:29 AM)
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 20,261
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Quote:
todesengel said:
the temperature of the boiling water you add your yeast to is the key.
I never pay particular attention to this. In my opinion, it isn't really that important. Just don't kill the yeast with too high temps, and keep an eye on the rising process to make sure you don't let rise too briefly or too long.
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greys
Mushroom Dork
Registered: 07/16/06
Posts: 37,370
Loc: nunya
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Quote:
todesengel said:
I don't know how much different making bread to pizza dough is but if you don't rise your bread well enough it will also come out hard not airy. I always rise my pizza dough in the oven at 200 in a large glass salad bowl with a damp kitchen cloth over the top. AFter about 30 minutes the towel is dry I take my dough out and separate into 4 parts and rise it again for another 40 minutes. Turns out perfect every single time.
you have not mastered pizza dough. To get the best quality pizza dough with the best yeasty flavor...you must cold rise and age the dough. 5 million family owned pizza places cant be wrong.
I make my pizza dough a full day ahead of time, regardless of if I'm doing cracker style or bread style crust.
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todesengel
the chinese chicken
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Re: bread baking help [Re: greys]
#14740469 - 07/09/11 01:08 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
greysRDbest said:
Quote:
todesengel said:
I don't know how much different making bread to pizza dough is but if you don't rise your bread well enough it will also come out hard not airy. I always rise my pizza dough in the oven at 200 in a large glass salad bowl with a damp kitchen cloth over the top. AFter about 30 minutes the towel is dry I take my dough out and separate into 4 parts and rise it again for another 40 minutes. Turns out perfect every single time.
you have not mastered pizza dough. To get the best quality pizza dough with the best yeasty flavor...you must cold rise and age the dough. 5 million family owned pizza places cant be wrong.
I make my pizza dough a full day ahead of time, regardless of if I'm doing cracker style or bread style crust.
I rise it in the oven for 30 minutes at 200, then rise again the dough Im using and package the extra coated in olive oil into the fridge and use them a few days later. What exactly is the process of cold rising? Am I close enough? I definitely notice a huge difference in taste after letting it sit in the fridge for a few days so much tastier. When I split my dough into 4 parts, I can make 4 very large pizzas. So I always have at least 2 doughs go into the fridge.
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 20,261
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Quote:
I rise it in the oven for 30 minutes at 200
I'm pretty sure you're killing the yeast in the other layer of the dough. Not to mention that you're quite nearly cooking it. In the winter when I want to rise a dough quickly, I also use an oven, but I never set it higher than 100F. I think the optimum temperature for yeast growth is probably somewhere in the 90-100F range, with lower temperatures (and lower growth rates) being beneficial for the structure of the dough.
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soochi
Chef
Registered: 08/13/02
Posts: 2,349
Loc: The Richest County
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Yes, it seems like you are not kneading your dough enough. you need to be able to make a very thin sheet of dough with your fingers (window pane test) when dough has sufficient gluten development
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O, what panic's in thy breastie!
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teamkiller
It was ahmazing
Registered: 06/06/11
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Re: bread baking help [Re: soochi]
#14745070 - 07/10/11 01:46 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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hey guys i wanted to say thank you for all the responses!!!
I'm about 50% sure its my oven or something i've experimented with long and short kneeds. i've tried single, double and triple kneeding. I always prep my yeast before hand. After i made this post i actually made a loaf that came out alright, although still relatively flavorless (it came out alright even though i didn't do anything differently...).
Anyone got some good ideas for stuff to add to my bread to make it more flavorful? so far garlic and salt crusts seem to work okay, though adding it directly to the dough seems like i have to add so much its not economical. I made a loaf where i added a SHIT ton of adobe and i couldn't taste it at all.
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"visual chaos" should not panic. Not encourage fierce attention patterns. !
All the extraordinary - a fantasy deceived serotonin receptors.
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soochi
Chef
Registered: 08/13/02
Posts: 2,349
Loc: The Richest County
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you should try getting a bread recipe that starts with some kind of "starter" or "sponge". straight mixing produces very little "bread" or "yeast" flavor, something you have to develop over time.
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Wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie,
O, what panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!
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Brainiac
Rogue Scientist
Registered: 04/29/06
Posts: 13,259
Loc: 與您的女朋
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Re: bread baking help [Re: soochi]
#14746125 - 07/10/11 05:04 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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^^ look up old dough...
How much salt are you adding....
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daussaulit
Forgetful
Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 2,882
Loc: Earth
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Re: bread baking help [Re: Brainiac]
#14755591 - 07/12/11 09:01 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Another issue is that proper bread baking needs a blast of steam in the very beginning. Commercial ovens have steam injection. You can do the same by warming up a cast iron pan in the oven. When you put the dough in the oven, pour hot water in the cast iron pan and close the door.
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 20,261
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 Excellent point daussaulit. That is true. I discussed bread baking once on a forum, and a baker chimed in with his knowledge. Very informative. This was indeed one of his points as well.
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MidRange
Stranger
Registered: 01/10/11
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Re: bread baking help [Re: koraks]
#14764348 - 07/13/11 09:20 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Also make sure you yeast is "fresh", old yeast won't work well, and leave the bread very dense.
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"Sacrifice is the Christian way of life. Theft is the Socialist way of achieving all ends. Together they represent an awesome evil for this nation to confront." Marc Emery.
People who receive medical cannabis trough the federal government.
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Kid_Orgo
journeyman janitor
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 5,513
Loc: Hale-Bopp
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This little handbook covers pretty much everything.
They're pretty hardcore on how wet the dough they use is, check out this video from the handbook, it's freaking amazing how wet the dough is when he starts out and how well it behaves after he slaps it around enough.
Things I found really helped my baking (derived from above links):
1) A baking scale is required for consistent results. Adding ingredients by volume is asking for trouble, as the densities vary greatly.
2) Hydrate thoroughly. I like to add the flour (and biga or poolish) to the water and let it sit for about an hour. As it says in the handbook, it lets the water do some of the work. Dough goes from shaggy mess to slightly smoother mess.
3) Wetter is better. I was sweating and pounding on hard dough and getting shitty bread. I switched to having to nimbly fold and stretch sticky dough and started getting airy loaves.
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He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.
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falcon
In the green
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Re: bread baking help [Re: soochi]
#14777338 - 07/16/11 02:55 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
soochi said:
you should try getting a bread recipe that starts with some kind of "starter" or "sponge". straight mixing produces very little "bread" or "yeast" flavor, something you have to develop over time.
I haven't made bread in a long time, but when I did, the sponge method was the easiest way to make consistently good tasting bread. The sponge also became a dumping ground, along with the flour that it was made with, for leftover starchy stuff such as, oatmeal, potatoes and rice which added more flavor and some texture to the bread.
These days I prefer my grains a little more digested by the yeast. 
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