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 JackofSpades
Peace
Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2,897
Last seen: 3 months, 27 days
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 Re: Why did the Buddha  [Re: Kickle]
#14589564 - 06/10/11 11:14 AM (2 years, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
JackofSpades said:
actually he did return to his wife and child....
he left because he wanted to find the truth to why there is suffering. he saw an ascetic who seemed not to care about the pain of the world around him, so siddhartha followed that path...then he came home years later, his son Rahula joined the sangha as a monk as did his wife....
Oh? Source? That's cool.
Aside from wikipedia...I've been living in South Asia (India, Bhutan, Nepal) and studying all this stuff (amongst many other things) for over 9 months now...Multiple lecturers/scholars from all three countries have stated the same thing...I completed a buddhist pilgrimage last month, going from Kushinagar (place of death) to Bodh gaya (site of enlightenment), Sarnath (first sermon) and Lumbini (birth)...I wrote a 35 page paper on pilgrimage and did a bunch of other shit on all this...whatever blah blah blah, just look it up.
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  If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,169
Last seen: 2 hours, 12 minutes
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I tried to look it up but found only conflicting information depending on which text was used as a reference.
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JackofSpades
Peace
Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2,897
Last seen: 3 months, 27 days
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Kickle]
#14589631 - 06/10/11 11:46 AM (2 years, 9 days ago) |
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Its funny, I was actually going to post that you might find that to be a problem.
When I was doing my paper I was re-telling the Buddha's lifestory and the whole thing just seemed like a massive fucking contradiction, as different scholars said different things (enlightened in one night v. 49 days), did this meditation v. that meditation, lived in Nepal v. lived in India (we don't even know that...jesus)...
But what I wrote is what I heard and what I've seen online...The Buddha lived 500 years before Jesus so I mean...its hard to be factual...
What sources did you find that said otherwise? I just did a google search for Rahula, the Buddha's son, and each one says he became a monk...
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,169
Last seen: 2 hours, 12 minutes
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Yeah, the son was consistent, the wife wasn't. Far as I could tell there isn't even consistency in what her name might have been.
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don_vedo
MerKaBa
Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 1,383
Loc: 5th dimension
Last seen: 1 month, 11 days
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Kickle]
#14589700 - 06/10/11 12:06 PM (2 years, 9 days ago) |
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That's pretty damn cool JS I'm pretty new to the forum so didn't realize you have gone so in depth with your studies in Buddism, any chance I could read the paper you wrote? I would be really interested. 
Lah'Kesh
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Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 80,482
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Cups]
#14589846 - 06/10/11 12:34 PM (2 years, 9 days ago) |
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Maybe Deff can comment more on it since he's really studied it, but I don't see it. If you desire/prefer something then it stands to reason there is that which you do not desire/prefer.
But without resistance to those negatives they lose most of their power. They still bring pain but not suffering because you do not insist they not be there. Attachment is insistence that this or that happen or not happen.
But maybe I have a better understanding of it than the Buddha did.  (can't wait to see the reactions to my killing the buddha on the road)
Only after a god asked him to.
gotta love the myth makers.
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"People convince themselves of their own lies, becoming victims of their own inventions as they begin to direct their lives by standards of behavior, ideas, feelings, or instincts which do not correspond to their inner reality. What is truly serious in this matter is that the individual loses all points of reference regarding what comprises truth, and what comprises lies. He becomes used to considering as true only that which is convenient for his personal interests; everything that is in opposition to his self-esteem or in conflict with already established prejudices, he considers false."
- John Baines
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don_vedo
MerKaBa
Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 1,383
Loc: 5th dimension
Last seen: 1 month, 11 days
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Icelander]
#14589971 - 06/10/11 01:00 PM (2 years, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
But without resistance to those negatives they lose most of their power. They still bring pain but not suffering because you do not insist they not be there. Attachment is insistence that this or that happen or not happen.
I like the way you put this I would have to agree.
Quote:
Icelander said:
But maybe I have a better understanding of it than the Buddha did. (can't wait to see the reactions to my killing the buddha on the road)
Only after a god asked him to.
gotta love the myth makers.
You crack me up Ice, couldn't resist to chuckle at this one 
Lah'Kesh
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Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
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c0sm0nautt
Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 10,034
Loc: NY
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: don_vedo]
#14589988 - 06/10/11 01:05 PM (2 years, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
But without resistance to those negatives they lose most of their power. They still bring pain but not suffering because you do not insist they not be there. Attachment is insistence that this or that happen or not happen.
Indeed. It's that internal resistance that perpetuates a lot of our problems. I think that's why they refer to them as "cycles." You should check out cosmicjokers new video recently posted - he's onto that idea as well, which is essential to tantric philosophy.
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The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein
    
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OneU
Registered: 03/19/11
Posts: 763
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Kickle]
#14590954 - 06/10/11 04:40 PM (2 years, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
I didn't realize I had insinuated that he should have done anything in particular. I'm interested in why he did what he did. After all, according to his words, he is the way.
As you may have noticed, any 'spiritual' teacher speaks in metaphors throughout their teachings (or analogies to point to the truth). He is the way is one of those.
Why do you think he would have gone back? Your questions regards only one side of the coin. Why didn't he opposed to why would he.
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Lallafa
p_g monocle
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 2,598
Loc: underbelly 
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Kickle]
#14590963 - 06/10/11 04:42 PM (2 years, 9 days ago) |
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the kid chose taoism out of defiance and his old lady wouldnt stop nagging about his opium habit
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my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,367
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Icelander]
#14590981 - 06/10/11 04:45 PM (2 years, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
(pain is different than suffering)
How so? Isn't pain a type of suffering?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 80,482
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Poid]
#14591925 - 06/10/11 08:22 PM (2 years, 8 days ago) |
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Suffering is emotional or mental imo. Pain is in and of the body. If I have some pain that is nagging me and I'm worried about it, it can feel worse. If I become engaged in something very interesting and involved I can forget about it completely. We've all had this experience.
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"People convince themselves of their own lies, becoming victims of their own inventions as they begin to direct their lives by standards of behavior, ideas, feelings, or instincts which do not correspond to their inner reality. What is truly serious in this matter is that the individual loses all points of reference regarding what comprises truth, and what comprises lies. He becomes used to considering as true only that which is convenient for his personal interests; everything that is in opposition to his self-esteem or in conflict with already established prejudices, he considers false."
- John Baines
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Joolz
Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 3,614
Last seen: 7 months, 12 days
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Icelander]
#14592143 - 06/10/11 09:09 PM (2 years, 8 days ago) |
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The Guru episode of Avatar: The Last Airbender does a good job of explaining why the Buddha would leave his wife and child.
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Prohibition didn't work for God; Eve ate the fruit.
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Cups
technically "here"
Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,924
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Icelander]
#14592901 - 06/10/11 11:30 PM (2 years, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
If you desire/prefer something then it stands to reason there is that which you do not desire/prefer.
But without resistance to those negatives they lose most of their power. They still bring pain but not suffering because you do not insist they not be there. Attachment is insistence that this or that happen or not happen.
I'm not buying it Ice. As Kickle quoted in another thread-
Quote:
When this is, that is.
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
When this isn't, that isn't.
From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
I find this to be true in all respects. So, when you develop a life view as all humans do it comes complete with a way thing should be. This also means there is a way things should not be.
Likewise, when you remove all notions for how life should be...all notions for how it should not be dissipate as well.
This you already know, but the fact that you are using a word like "negatives" in your quote shows IMO that you aren't there yet. Not that I am either...nope nope nope.
But good/bad, positive/negative, right/wrong...it's all subjective and even the subject is subjective so lose it all IMO.
----------------------------------------------------------------
So since we're in the mystical forum and I can wax poetic about unprovable things...here's my current working hypothesis for whats up on this topic.
I do actually believe that it possible to achieve what you are talking about Icelander. (Although to be fair since I think it's possible I'm falling into the trap of attachment but let's put that aside for now.)
We're we differ is IMO to get to what you're talking about you have to go all the way with what Buddha was talking about first. On that day when whatever switch needs to flip...flips...then, for the first time in your entire life you are presented with a genuine choice. It could sound kind of like a cosmic version of this-
You see, in the complete absence of attachment for the first time in your life you will be able to ask and answer the greatest existential question of all time- Should I stay or should I go?
Or if you prefer: To Be or Not to Be?
Whatever.
If you choose to diminish you'll make your exit in blissful peaceful awareness. Bon voyage.
if you choose to stay, then you have specifically chosen to live from a place of absolute non-attachment. There's no more of this "I didn't choose to be born!" talk. You chose, and now fully cognizant of the emptiness of all things you can make the world as you see fit. Imagine that life!
There is some precedence for this in traditional buddhism. Some guys hit nirvana and kick it, others (most) stay for the "benefit of all sentient beings". What do you expect after decades of loving kindness meditation?
Wonder if that's built in on purpose to insure against a "dark" buddha. 
That's my take ATM.
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No more words of wisdom.
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Cups
technically "here"
Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,924
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Quote:
JackofSpades said:
Its funny, I was actually going to post that you might find that to be a problem.
But what I wrote is what I heard and what I've seen online...The Buddha lived 500 years before Jesus so I mean...its hard to be factual...
The first documentary I ever watched on buddha was the PBS special one. At the end one of the commentators addressed this issue and ended with the questions "Did he even really exist? Does it matter?"
IMO- Not at all.
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No more words of wisdom.
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JackofSpades
Peace
Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2,897
Last seen: 3 months, 27 days
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Cups]
#14593001 - 06/10/11 11:46 PM (2 years, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Cups said:
Quote:
JackofSpades said:
Its funny, I was actually going to post that you might find that to be a problem.
But what I wrote is what I heard and what I've seen online...The Buddha lived 500 years before Jesus so I mean...its hard to be factual...
The first documentary I ever watched on buddha was the PBS special one. At the end one of the commentators addressed this issue and ended with the questions "Did he even really exist? Does it matter?"
IMO- Not at all.
yeah I agree completely. Its more like a monomyth to better understand the journey of life from darkness back to the source.
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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The Chronic
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 12,022
Loc: 
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Abandon his wife and child? And why even after his enlightenment did he not seek them out?
Quote:
JackofSpades said:
actually he did return to his wife and child....
he left because he wanted to find the truth to why there is suffering. he saw an ascetic who seemed not to care about the pain of the world around him, so siddhartha followed that path...then he came home years later, his son Rahula joined the sangha as a monk as did his wife....
Yeah that's how i heard the story went
It feels like our self is attached to so many things so it seems in order to find our self we have to leave those things aside for a while, but when you find your Self everything/anything can be there as you've found peace with everything
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 80,482
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Cups]
#14594562 - 06/11/11 08:15 AM (2 years, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Cups said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
If you desire/prefer something then it stands to reason there is that which you do not desire/prefer.
But without resistance to those negatives they lose most of their power. They still bring pain but not suffering because you do not insist they not be there. Attachment is insistence that this or that happen or not happen.
I'm not buying it Ice. As Kickle quoted in another thread-
Quote:
When this is, that is.
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
When this isn't, that isn't.
From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
I find this to be true in all respects. So, when you develop a life view as all humans do it comes complete with a way thing should be. This also means there is a way things should not be.
Likewise, when you remove all notions for how life should be...all notions for how it should not be dissipate as well.
This you already know, but the fact that you are using a word like "negatives" in your quote shows IMO that you aren't there yet. Not that I am either...nope nope nope.
But good/bad, positive/negative, right/wrong...it's all subjective and even the subject is subjective so lose it all IMO.
----------------------------------------------------------------
So since we're in the mystical forum and I can wax poetic about unprovable things...here's my current working hypothesis for whats up on this topic.
I do actually believe that it possible to achieve what you are talking about Icelander. (Although to be fair since I think it's possible I'm falling into the trap of attachment but let's put that aside for now.)
We're we differ is IMO to get to what you're talking about you have to go all the way with what Buddha was talking about first. On that day when whatever switch needs to flip...flips...then, for the first time in your entire life you are presented with a genuine choice. It could sound kind of like a cosmic version of this-
You see, in the complete absence of attachment for the first time in your life you will be able to ask and answer the greatest existential question of all time- Should I stay or should I go?
Or if you prefer: To Be or Not to Be?
Whatever.
If you choose to diminish you'll make your exit in blissful peaceful awareness. Bon voyage.
if you choose to stay, then you have specifically chosen to live from a place of absolute non-attachment. There's no more of this "I didn't choose to be born!" talk. You chose, and now fully cognizant of the emptiness of all things you can make the world as you see fit. Imagine that life!
There is some precedence for this in traditional buddhism. Some guys hit nirvana and kick it, others (most) stay for the "benefit of all sentient beings". What do you expect after decades of loving kindness meditation?
Wonder if that's built in on purpose to insure against a "dark" buddha.
That's my take ATM.
Never said I was there but I've had a taste of it on the little things with practice and more so all the time, so I believe it to be real from experience. Pretty powerful evidence on the subjective level.
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"People convince themselves of their own lies, becoming victims of their own inventions as they begin to direct their lives by standards of behavior, ideas, feelings, or instincts which do not correspond to their inner reality. What is truly serious in this matter is that the individual loses all points of reference regarding what comprises truth, and what comprises lies. He becomes used to considering as true only that which is convenient for his personal interests; everything that is in opposition to his self-esteem or in conflict with already established prejudices, he considers false."
- John Baines
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Cups
technically "here"
Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,924
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Icelander]
#14595098 - 06/11/11 11:33 AM (2 years, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Never said I was there but I've had a taste of it on the little things with practice and more so all the time, so I believe it to be real from experience. Pretty powerful evidence on the subjective level.
I wasn't calling you out dude...on what basis could I do that with a straight face? LOL
I'm just saying that IMO unless you lose it all first...there will always be that little something left over just waiting to trip you up.
The other day I watched a holocaust thing and they interviewed a survivor who was at Auschwitz. When they arrived on the train he and his mother walked down the sorting line side by side. When they got to the guard he was told to go left and she was sent right...to the chambers. And he knew it, as did she.
In that moment I experienced it as if it had been me and my mom and almost burst into tears.
Now 99.9% of the world would classify that as a reasonable thing, but it sums up exactly what I feel needs to go.
Then I'll go from there. Maybe.
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No more words of wisdom.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 80,482
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Cups]
#14595178 - 06/11/11 12:00 PM (2 years, 8 days ago) |
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Call me out whenever you think I'm fos.
Almost nothing in life is 100% and I doubt any human could ever completely remove suffering from their consciousness. However my current beliefs on our discussion, put into practice, has GREATLY improved my life experience. Based on that I'm going with my understanding on the causes and effects of suffering. Only a fool would do differently imo.
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"People convince themselves of their own lies, becoming victims of their own inventions as they begin to direct their lives by standards of behavior, ideas, feelings, or instincts which do not correspond to their inner reality. What is truly serious in this matter is that the individual loses all points of reference regarding what comprises truth, and what comprises lies. He becomes used to considering as true only that which is convenient for his personal interests; everything that is in opposition to his self-esteem or in conflict with already established prejudices, he considers false."
- John Baines
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