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 Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
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 Why did the Buddha 
#14586494 - 06/09/11 06:38 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Abandon his wife and child? And why even after his enlightenment did he not seek them out?
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OneU
Registered: 03/19/11
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Kickle]
#14586509 - 06/09/11 06:41 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Why do you think he should have?
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: OneU]
#14586537 - 06/09/11 06:48 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I didn't realize I had insinuated that he should have done anything in particular. I'm interested in why he did what he did. After all, according to his words, he is the way.
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don_vedo
MerKaBa
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: OneU]
#14586539 - 06/09/11 06:49 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
OneU said:
Why do you think he should have?
Interesting question.
I would imagine he abandoned them to strip himself off all material things/possessions leading him to understand the 4 noble truths; abandoning ones family would have given him freedom from being bound to other beings instead of focusing all attention upon himself.
Why he wouldn't go back after enlightenment stumps me or leaves me at a loss for words, since he understood enlightenment and understood that every moment was a chance to be enlightened by living the moment for what it was ten why would it not be ok to enjoy the company of family?
Interesting questions indeed kickle.
Lah'Kesh
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Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,888
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Kickle]
#14586654 - 06/09/11 07:12 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Abandon his wife and child? And why even after his enlightenment did he not seek them out?
For the same reason I would most likely. 
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 53,700
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Icelander] 2
#14587176 - 06/09/11 09:13 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Perhaps for the same reason that Jesus said "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple."? (Luke 14:26)
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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don_vedo
MerKaBa
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: deCypher]
#14587224 - 06/09/11 09:23 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Perhaps for the same reason that Jesus said "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple."? (Luke 14:26)
Interesting, I haven't read this passage before. Will definitely ponder this, definitely makes me look at it from a different light.
Lah'Kesh
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Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
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c0sm0nautt
Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 10,027
Loc: NY
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Kickle]
#14587369 - 06/09/11 09:59 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Expedient means?
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The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein
    
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Cups
technically "here"
Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,924
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: don_vedo]
#14588129 - 06/10/11 12:31 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Abandon his wife and child? And why even after his enlightenment did he not seek them out?
Alright I'll play.
He "abandoned" his wife and child because he knew they would impede his quest to end his suffering. He didn't even say goodbye since he knew that would only serve to make it more difficult for him.
Sounds selfish right? 
After his enlightenment he didn't seek them out because there was no reason to. If there had it would have meant that he placed more value on them than other people..or anything really.
Mr Vedo-
Quote:
don_vedo said:
Why he wouldn't go back after enlightenment stumps me or leaves me at a loss for words, since he understood enlightenment and understood that every moment was a chance to be enlightened by living the moment for what it was ten why would it not be ok to enjoy the company of family?
Under this philosophy it's not OK to enjoy anything because things can be taken from you. Even happiness is suffering since it inevitably ends, or at least has the potential to...which causes you to suffer by hoping it stays.
See?
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No more words of wisdom.
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don_vedo
MerKaBa
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Cups]
#14588149 - 06/10/11 12:35 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cups said:
Under this philosophy it's not OK to enjoy anything because things can be taken from you. Even happiness is suffering since it inevitably ends, or at least has the potential to...which causes you to suffer by hoping it stays.
See?
That makes a lot of sense, I probably should have stopped and thought about it a little harder. Thanks for sharing cups, much appreciated brother!
Lah'Kesh
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Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
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Cups
technically "here"
Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,924
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: don_vedo]
#14588206 - 06/10/11 12:48 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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It's counter-intuitive for most people. I see tons and tons of people absolutely sure they want enlightenment...but IMO they don't have any idea what the fuck they are talking about.
Having spent some time pondering these things I can see why the East came up with the idea of karma to explain why such an infinitely small fraction of people are capable of fully checking out.
Well it explains everything really, but it helps with this as well.
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No more words of wisdom.
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: deCypher]
#14588375 - 06/10/11 01:31 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Perhaps for the same reason that Jesus said "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple."? (Luke 14:26)
Most likely. Nice addition. Were the capital letters your own emphasis? I really like the focus 
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
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Quote:
c0sm0nautt said:
Expedient means?
And after the destination is reached?
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Cups]
#14588454 - 06/10/11 01:54 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cups said:
Quote:
Kickle said:
Abandon his wife and child? And why even after his enlightenment did he not seek them out?
Alright I'll play.
He "abandoned" his wife and child because he knew they would impede his quest to end his suffering. He didn't even say goodbye since he knew that would only serve to make it more difficult for him.
Sounds selfish right?
No more than anything else we do. Just more direct.
Quote:
Cups said:
After his enlightenment he didn't seek them out because there was no reason to. If there had it would have meant that he placed more value on them than other people..or anything really.
So why did he teach and have favored disciples?
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JackofSpades
Peace
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Kickle]
#14589044 - 06/10/11 06:42 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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actually he did return to his wife and child....
he left because he wanted to find the truth to why there is suffering. he saw an ascetic who seemed not to care about the pain of the world around him, so siddhartha followed that path...then he came home years later, his son Rahula joined the sangha as a monk as did his wife....
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  If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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c0sm0nautt
Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 10,027
Loc: NY
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Kickle]
#14589377 - 06/10/11 10:15 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
c0sm0nautt said:
Expedient means?
And after the destination is reached?
Well I meant for the wife and child.
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The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 79,888
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Cups] 1
#14589445 - 06/10/11 10:35 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Under this philosophy it's not OK to enjoy anything because things can be taken from you. Even happiness is suffering since it inevitably ends, or at least has the potential to...which causes you to suffer by hoping it stays.
I really think, or at least I hope this is NOT what the buddha meant by suffering. It's fine to enjoy anything that comes to you or that you desire or prefer. What causes suffering is the attachment to the continuation of that desire or preference. Without attachment the world just is and brings us things to enjoy and pain (pain is different than suffering).
To expect the human organism to not have preferences and attempt to attain them is ridiculous imo. Even the buddha decided not to sit any more and got up and walked.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Cups
technically "here"
Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,924
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Kickle]
#14589456 - 06/10/11 10:38 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
No more than anything else we do. Just more direct.
fair enough
Quote:
Kickle said:
So why did he teach and have favored disciples?
Well he taught for the same reason he returned to his family as Jack notes...because he was asked. Or at least that's the story. To teach by a god and to return by the family.
As for the favored disciple thing this quote comes to mind.
Quote:
Not half, but man's entire life is established on friendship, companionship and association with the good.
They tie friendship into an extension of loving kindness. In truth I imagine being a buddha is fairly lonely having a few disciples who even begin to grasp how you see things would be nice.
Definitely kinks in the system though IMO.
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No more words of wisdom.
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
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Quote:
JackofSpades said:
actually he did return to his wife and child....
he left because he wanted to find the truth to why there is suffering. he saw an ascetic who seemed not to care about the pain of the world around him, so siddhartha followed that path...then he came home years later, his son Rahula joined the sangha as a monk as did his wife....
Oh? Source? That's cool.
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Cups
technically "here"
Registered: 12/24/09
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Icelander]
#14589475 - 06/10/11 10:43 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I really think, or at least I hope this is NOT what the buddha meant by suffering. It's fine to enjoy anything that comes to you or that you desire or prefer. What causes suffering is the attachment to the continuation of that desire or preference. Without attachment the world just is and brings us things to enjoy and pain (pain is different than suffering).
Maybe Deff can comment more on it since he's really studied it, but I don't see it. If you desire/prefer something then it stands to reason there is that which you do not desire/prefer. 
Quote:
Icelander said:To expect the human organism to not have preferences and attempt to attain them is ridiculous imo. Even the buddha decided not to sit any more and got up and walked.
Only after a god asked him to. He was going to sit there and diminish as the story goes.
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No more words of wisdom.
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JackofSpades
Peace
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Kickle]
#14589564 - 06/10/11 11:14 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
JackofSpades said:
actually he did return to his wife and child....
he left because he wanted to find the truth to why there is suffering. he saw an ascetic who seemed not to care about the pain of the world around him, so siddhartha followed that path...then he came home years later, his son Rahula joined the sangha as a monk as did his wife....
Oh? Source? That's cool.
Aside from wikipedia...I've been living in South Asia (India, Bhutan, Nepal) and studying all this stuff (amongst many other things) for over 9 months now...Multiple lecturers/scholars from all three countries have stated the same thing...I completed a buddhist pilgrimage last month, going from Kushinagar (place of death) to Bodh gaya (site of enlightenment), Sarnath (first sermon) and Lumbini (birth)...I wrote a 35 page paper on pilgrimage and did a bunch of other shit on all this...whatever blah blah blah, just look it up.
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
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I tried to look it up but found only conflicting information depending on which text was used as a reference.
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JackofSpades
Peace
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Kickle]
#14589631 - 06/10/11 11:46 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Its funny, I was actually going to post that you might find that to be a problem.
When I was doing my paper I was re-telling the Buddha's lifestory and the whole thing just seemed like a massive fucking contradiction, as different scholars said different things (enlightened in one night v. 49 days), did this meditation v. that meditation, lived in Nepal v. lived in India (we don't even know that...jesus)...
But what I wrote is what I heard and what I've seen online...The Buddha lived 500 years before Jesus so I mean...its hard to be factual...
What sources did you find that said otherwise? I just did a google search for Rahula, the Buddha's son, and each one says he became a monk...
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
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Yeah, the son was consistent, the wife wasn't. Far as I could tell there isn't even consistency in what her name might have been.
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don_vedo
MerKaBa
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Posts: 1,383
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Kickle]
#14589700 - 06/10/11 12:06 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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That's pretty damn cool JS I'm pretty new to the forum so didn't realize you have gone so in depth with your studies in Buddism, any chance I could read the paper you wrote? I would be really interested. 
Lah'Kesh
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Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,888
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Cups]
#14589846 - 06/10/11 12:34 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Maybe Deff can comment more on it since he's really studied it, but I don't see it. If you desire/prefer something then it stands to reason there is that which you do not desire/prefer.
But without resistance to those negatives they lose most of their power. They still bring pain but not suffering because you do not insist they not be there. Attachment is insistence that this or that happen or not happen.
But maybe I have a better understanding of it than the Buddha did.  (can't wait to see the reactions to my killing the buddha on the road)
Only after a god asked him to.
gotta love the myth makers.
--------------------
"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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don_vedo
MerKaBa
Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 1,383
Loc: 5th dimension
Last seen: 17 days, 20 hours
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Icelander]
#14589971 - 06/10/11 01:00 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
But without resistance to those negatives they lose most of their power. They still bring pain but not suffering because you do not insist they not be there. Attachment is insistence that this or that happen or not happen.
I like the way you put this I would have to agree.
Quote:
Icelander said:
But maybe I have a better understanding of it than the Buddha did. (can't wait to see the reactions to my killing the buddha on the road)
Only after a god asked him to.
gotta love the myth makers.
You crack me up Ice, couldn't resist to chuckle at this one 
Lah'Kesh
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Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
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c0sm0nautt
Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 10,027
Loc: NY
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: don_vedo]
#14589988 - 06/10/11 01:05 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
But without resistance to those negatives they lose most of their power. They still bring pain but not suffering because you do not insist they not be there. Attachment is insistence that this or that happen or not happen.
Indeed. It's that internal resistance that perpetuates a lot of our problems. I think that's why they refer to them as "cycles." You should check out cosmicjokers new video recently posted - he's onto that idea as well, which is essential to tantric philosophy.
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The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein
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OneU
Registered: 03/19/11
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Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Kickle]
#14590954 - 06/10/11 04:40 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
I didn't realize I had insinuated that he should have done anything in particular. I'm interested in why he did what he did. After all, according to his words, he is the way.
As you may have noticed, any 'spiritual' teacher speaks in metaphors throughout their teachings (or analogies to point to the truth). He is the way is one of those.
Why do you think he would have gone back? Your questions regards only one side of the coin. Why didn't he opposed to why would he.
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Lallafa
p_g monocle
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 2,598
Loc: underbelly 
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Kickle]
#14590963 - 06/10/11 04:42 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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the kid chose taoism out of defiance and his old lady wouldnt stop nagging about his opium habit
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my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Icelander]
#14590981 - 06/10/11 04:45 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
(pain is different than suffering)
How so? Isn't pain a type of suffering?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Poid]
#14591925 - 06/10/11 08:22 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Suffering is emotional or mental imo. Pain is in and of the body. If I have some pain that is nagging me and I'm worried about it, it can feel worse. If I become engaged in something very interesting and involved I can forget about it completely. We've all had this experience.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Joolz
Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 3,614
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Icelander]
#14592143 - 06/10/11 09:09 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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The Guru episode of Avatar: The Last Airbender does a good job of explaining why the Buddha would leave his wife and child.
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Prohibition didn't work for God; Eve ate the fruit.
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Cups
technically "here"
Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,924
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Icelander]
#14592901 - 06/10/11 11:30 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
If you desire/prefer something then it stands to reason there is that which you do not desire/prefer.
But without resistance to those negatives they lose most of their power. They still bring pain but not suffering because you do not insist they not be there. Attachment is insistence that this or that happen or not happen.
I'm not buying it Ice. As Kickle quoted in another thread-
Quote:
When this is, that is.
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
When this isn't, that isn't.
From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
I find this to be true in all respects. So, when you develop a life view as all humans do it comes complete with a way thing should be. This also means there is a way things should not be.
Likewise, when you remove all notions for how life should be...all notions for how it should not be dissipate as well.
This you already know, but the fact that you are using a word like "negatives" in your quote shows IMO that you aren't there yet. Not that I am either...nope nope nope.
But good/bad, positive/negative, right/wrong...it's all subjective and even the subject is subjective so lose it all IMO.
----------------------------------------------------------------
So since we're in the mystical forum and I can wax poetic about unprovable things...here's my current working hypothesis for whats up on this topic.
I do actually believe that it possible to achieve what you are talking about Icelander. (Although to be fair since I think it's possible I'm falling into the trap of attachment but let's put that aside for now.)
We're we differ is IMO to get to what you're talking about you have to go all the way with what Buddha was talking about first. On that day when whatever switch needs to flip...flips...then, for the first time in your entire life you are presented with a genuine choice. It could sound kind of like a cosmic version of this-
You see, in the complete absence of attachment for the first time in your life you will be able to ask and answer the greatest existential question of all time- Should I stay or should I go?
Or if you prefer: To Be or Not to Be?
Whatever.
If you choose to diminish you'll make your exit in blissful peaceful awareness. Bon voyage.
if you choose to stay, then you have specifically chosen to live from a place of absolute non-attachment. There's no more of this "I didn't choose to be born!" talk. You chose, and now fully cognizant of the emptiness of all things you can make the world as you see fit. Imagine that life!
There is some precedence for this in traditional buddhism. Some guys hit nirvana and kick it, others (most) stay for the "benefit of all sentient beings". What do you expect after decades of loving kindness meditation?
Wonder if that's built in on purpose to insure against a "dark" buddha.
That's my take ATM.
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No more words of wisdom.
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Cups
technically "here"
Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,924
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Quote:
JackofSpades said:
Its funny, I was actually going to post that you might find that to be a problem.
But what I wrote is what I heard and what I've seen online...The Buddha lived 500 years before Jesus so I mean...its hard to be factual...
The first documentary I ever watched on buddha was the PBS special one. At the end one of the commentators addressed this issue and ended with the questions "Did he even really exist? Does it matter?"
IMO- Not at all.
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No more words of wisdom.
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JackofSpades
Peace
Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2,897
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Cups]
#14593001 - 06/10/11 11:46 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cups said:
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JackofSpades said:
Its funny, I was actually going to post that you might find that to be a problem.
But what I wrote is what I heard and what I've seen online...The Buddha lived 500 years before Jesus so I mean...its hard to be factual...
The first documentary I ever watched on buddha was the PBS special one. At the end one of the commentators addressed this issue and ended with the questions "Did he even really exist? Does it matter?"
IMO- Not at all.
yeah I agree completely. Its more like a monomyth to better understand the journey of life from darkness back to the source.
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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The Chronic
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 12,003
Loc: 
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Kickle said:
Abandon his wife and child? And why even after his enlightenment did he not seek them out?
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JackofSpades said:
actually he did return to his wife and child....
he left because he wanted to find the truth to why there is suffering. he saw an ascetic who seemed not to care about the pain of the world around him, so siddhartha followed that path...then he came home years later, his son Rahula joined the sangha as a monk as did his wife....
Yeah that's how i heard the story went
It feels like our self is attached to so many things so it seems in order to find our self we have to leave those things aside for a while, but when you find your Self everything/anything can be there as you've found peace with everything
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,888
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Cups]
#14594562 - 06/11/11 08:15 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cups said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
If you desire/prefer something then it stands to reason there is that which you do not desire/prefer.
But without resistance to those negatives they lose most of their power. They still bring pain but not suffering because you do not insist they not be there. Attachment is insistence that this or that happen or not happen.
I'm not buying it Ice. As Kickle quoted in another thread-
Quote:
When this is, that is.
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
When this isn't, that isn't.
From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
I find this to be true in all respects. So, when you develop a life view as all humans do it comes complete with a way thing should be. This also means there is a way things should not be.
Likewise, when you remove all notions for how life should be...all notions for how it should not be dissipate as well.
This you already know, but the fact that you are using a word like "negatives" in your quote shows IMO that you aren't there yet. Not that I am either...nope nope nope.
But good/bad, positive/negative, right/wrong...it's all subjective and even the subject is subjective so lose it all IMO.
----------------------------------------------------------------
So since we're in the mystical forum and I can wax poetic about unprovable things...here's my current working hypothesis for whats up on this topic.
I do actually believe that it possible to achieve what you are talking about Icelander. (Although to be fair since I think it's possible I'm falling into the trap of attachment but let's put that aside for now.)
We're we differ is IMO to get to what you're talking about you have to go all the way with what Buddha was talking about first. On that day when whatever switch needs to flip...flips...then, for the first time in your entire life you are presented with a genuine choice. It could sound kind of like a cosmic version of this-
You see, in the complete absence of attachment for the first time in your life you will be able to ask and answer the greatest existential question of all time- Should I stay or should I go?
Or if you prefer: To Be or Not to Be?
Whatever.
If you choose to diminish you'll make your exit in blissful peaceful awareness. Bon voyage.
if you choose to stay, then you have specifically chosen to live from a place of absolute non-attachment. There's no more of this "I didn't choose to be born!" talk. You chose, and now fully cognizant of the emptiness of all things you can make the world as you see fit. Imagine that life!
There is some precedence for this in traditional buddhism. Some guys hit nirvana and kick it, others (most) stay for the "benefit of all sentient beings". What do you expect after decades of loving kindness meditation?
Wonder if that's built in on purpose to insure against a "dark" buddha.
That's my take ATM.
Never said I was there but I've had a taste of it on the little things with practice and more so all the time, so I believe it to be real from experience. Pretty powerful evidence on the subjective level.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Cups
technically "here"
Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,924
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Icelander]
#14595098 - 06/11/11 11:33 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Never said I was there but I've had a taste of it on the little things with practice and more so all the time, so I believe it to be real from experience. Pretty powerful evidence on the subjective level.
I wasn't calling you out dude...on what basis could I do that with a straight face? LOL
I'm just saying that IMO unless you lose it all first...there will always be that little something left over just waiting to trip you up.
The other day I watched a holocaust thing and they interviewed a survivor who was at Auschwitz. When they arrived on the train he and his mother walked down the sorting line side by side. When they got to the guard he was told to go left and she was sent right...to the chambers. And he knew it, as did she.
In that moment I experienced it as if it had been me and my mom and almost burst into tears.
Now 99.9% of the world would classify that as a reasonable thing, but it sums up exactly what I feel needs to go.
Then I'll go from there. Maybe.
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No more words of wisdom.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,888
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Cups]
#14595178 - 06/11/11 12:00 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Call me out whenever you think I'm fos.
Almost nothing in life is 100% and I doubt any human could ever completely remove suffering from their consciousness. However my current beliefs on our discussion, put into practice, has GREATLY improved my life experience. Based on that I'm going with my understanding on the causes and effects of suffering. Only a fool would do differently imo.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 53,700
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Icelander]
#14596526 - 06/11/11 05:11 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Icelander said:
I doubt any human could ever completely remove suffering from their consciousness.
Yep. Although it's certainly an ideal worth trying for IMO.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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JackofSpades
Peace
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: deCypher]
#14598894 - 06/12/11 02:40 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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deCypher said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
I doubt any human could ever completely remove suffering from their consciousness.
Yep. Although it's certainly an ideal worth trying for IMO.
From what I understand its not about removing suffering so much as it is realizing that suffering is caused by the illusion of self. Once you realize that there is no self and therefore no one to suffer, it just stops, it isn't really a purification or removal process. Suffering just abruptly ends as it requires someone to experience it. So of course, no person could ever remove suffering from their consciousness so long as they continue to be something rather than just be.
I obviously don't though and this could be entirely wrong but this is my understand of how it works.
I have a question for Icelander though and anyone here who believes enlightenment is bullshit. I assume Icelander that you don't believe enlightenment is real (correct me if I'm wrong)...
What do you think of these people such as Sri Ramana Maharashi, Eckhart Tolle, or Sri Nisgaradatta, who claim to have achieved enlightenment and be existing in a state of eternal peace where they confidently claim death, self, time, space and reality in every aspect is an illusion?
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
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Quote:
JackofSpades said:
What do you think of these people such as Sri Ramana Maharashi, Eckhart Tolle, or Sri Nisgaradatta, who claim to have achieved enlightenment and be existing in a state of eternal peace where they confidently claim death, self, time, space and reality in every aspect is an illusion?
Now, I'm no Icelander, but I gotta say: so what? I could claim the same thing for myself right now.
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don_vedo
MerKaBa
Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 1,383
Loc: 5th dimension
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Quote:
Sleepwalker said:
Quote:
JackofSpades said:
What do you think of these people such as Sri Ramana Maharashi, Eckhart Tolle, or Sri Nisgaradatta, who claim to have achieved enlightenment and be existing in a state of eternal peace where they confidently claim death, self, time, space and reality in every aspect is an illusion?
Now, I'm no Icelander, but I gotta say: so what? I could claim the same thing for myself right now.
I agree with this, it all comes down to self.
Lah'Kesh
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Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
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JackofSpades
Peace
Registered: 03/01/09
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Quote:
Sleepwalker said:
Quote:
JackofSpades said:
What do you think of these people such as Sri Ramana Maharashi, Eckhart Tolle, or Sri Nisgaradatta, who claim to have achieved enlightenment and be existing in a state of eternal peace where they confidently claim death, self, time, space and reality in every aspect is an illusion?
Now, I'm no Icelander, but I gotta say: so what? I could claim the same thing for myself right now.
Quote:
Sleepwalker said:
Quote:
JackofSpades said:
What do you think of these people such as Sri Ramana Maharashi, Eckhart Tolle, or Sri Nisgaradatta, who claim to have achieved enlightenment and be existing in a state of eternal peace where they confidently claim death, self, time, space and reality in every aspect is an illusion?
Now, I'm no Icelander, but I gotta say: so what? I could claim the same thing for myself right now.
Well, yeah, of course. But you aren't, so what do you make of the people who do make such a claim (these three people specifically) you just think they are lying to people or insane or what? Like, say you meet Sri Ramana Mahrashi and you say enlightenment is bullshit and he goes, "no, I have achieved self-realization and can see very clearly it is the truth", what would be your response...
I'm not trying to convince you enlightenment is real, I'm just curious as to what you think of these people is all.
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
Edited by JackofSpades (06/12/11 04:32 AM)
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
JackofSpades said:
I'm not trying to convince you enlightenment is real, I'm just curious as to what you think of these people is all.
I think they're suffering from delusional narcissistic cosmic significance.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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JackofSpades
Peace
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Poid]
#14599365 - 06/12/11 05:18 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
JackofSpades said:
I'm not trying to convince you enlightenment is real, I'm just curious as to what you think of these people is all.
I think they're suffering from delusional narcissistic cosmic significance.
Well, the thing thats odd, at least in Maharshi's case, is that after finding whatever he found, he went to South India and just sat in silence for twenty years (I need to double check but thats what I've read) and only became known because of other people's experiences of being around him...He then never wrote a book or asked for anything from anyone. He just told people to realize their true nature by asking the question "who am I" and by investigating through self-inquirey...Narcissism doesn't really seem like an appropriate diagnosis but i suppose you could just write him off as delusional.
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
JackofSpades said:
Narcissism doesn't really seem like an appropriate diagnosis...
Why not? He believed he was special in that he achieved something that others have not..IMO, all he did was rationalize that his personal understanding of reality corresponds to the ultimate truth in order to gain a sense of "cosmic significance", meaning that he yearned to gain a sense of being a special, significant thing in reality. This is classic human narcissism, and has its roots in death anxiety.
Quote:
JackofSpades said:
but i suppose you could just write him off as delusional.
Yes, he was delusional in thinking that he was more special and significant than other people, places, or things..most, if not all humans are at least somewhat delusional in this manner, although to varying extents.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (06/12/11 05:44 AM)
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JackofSpades
Peace
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Poid]
#14599470 - 06/12/11 06:38 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
JackofSpades said:
Narcissism doesn't really seem like an appropriate diagnosis...
Why not? He believed he was special in that he achieved something that others have not..IMO, all he did was rationalize that his personal understanding of reality corresponds to the ultimate truth in order to gain a sense of "cosmic significance", meaning that he yearned to gain a sense of being a special, significant thing in reality. This is classic human narcissism, and has its roots in death anxiety.
Quote:
JackofSpades said:
but i suppose you could just write him off as delusional.
Yes, he was delusional in thinking that he was more special and significant than other people, places, or things..most, if not all humans are at least somewhat delusional in this manner, although to varying extents.
Well, if you read the very few things recorded by him you would find this is not at all the case. He never claimed to have achieved something special or that he was more significant to other people. He just claimed to have realized his true nature, peace and happiness.
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
JackofSpades said:
Well, if you read the very few things recorded by him you would find this is not at all the case. He never claimed to have achieved something special or that he was more significant to other people.
Ramana Maharshi
Quote:
He urged people who came to him to practice self-enquiry
He directed people to look inward rather than seeking outside themselves for Realization.
He...offer[ed] spiritual guidance to anyone of any background who came to him
He considered himself to be a teacher, with something special and significant to offer to the world..he did claim to achieve self-realization and a clear perception of truth.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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JackofSpades
Peace
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Poid]
#14599507 - 06/12/11 07:09 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
JackofSpades said:
Well, if you read the very few things recorded by him you would find this is not at all the case. He never claimed to have achieved something special or that he was more significant to other people.
Ramana Maharshi
Quote:
He urged people who came to him to practice self-enquiry
He directed people to look inward rather than seeking outside themselves for Realization.
He...offer[ed] spiritual guidance to anyone of any background who came to him
He considered himself to be a teacher, with something special and significant to offer to the world..he did claim to achieve self-realization and a clear perception of truth.
I don't agree that would be enough to label someone narcissistic, delusional--sure but not narcissistic. But thats just my opinion
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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He thought he was important..how is that not narcissistic?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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The Chronic
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 12,003
Loc:
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Quote:
JackofSpades said:
say you meet Sri Ramana Mahrashi and you say enlightenment is bullshit and he goes, "no, I have achieved self-realization and can see very clearly it is the truth", what would be your response...
I reckon he would agree with you that it's bullshit!
Quote:
Visitor:
When one attains Self-realization, what is the guarantee that one has really attained it and is not under an illusion like the lunatic who thinks he is Napoleon or some such thing.
Bhagavan:
In a sense, speaking of Self-realization is a delusion. It is only because people have been under the delusion that the non-Self is the Self and the unreal the Real that they have to be weaned out of it by other delusion called Self-realization; because actually the Self always is the Self and there is no such thing as realizing it. Who is to realize what, and how, when all that exists is the Self and nothing but the Self?
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JackofSpades
Peace
Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2,897
Last seen: 3 months, 2 days
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Poid]
#14599673 - 06/12/11 08:48 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
He thought he was important..how is that not narcissistic?
You're horribly distorting this. The man didn't speak for two decades and lived alone on a mountain. Not exactly an ego trip. People came asking him to teach and he did. He never once claimed to be important or special. Like most realized people he actually claimed the opposite that his realization was quite ordinary and simple.
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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JackofSpades
Peace
Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2,897
Last seen: 3 months, 2 days
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Quote:
The Chronic said:
Quote:
JackofSpades said:
say you meet Sri Ramana Mahrashi and you say enlightenment is bullshit and he goes, "no, I have achieved self-realization and can see very clearly it is the truth", what would be your response...
I reckon he would agree with you that it's bullshit!
Quote:
Visitor:
When one attains Self-realization, what is the guarantee that one has really attained it and is not under an illusion like the lunatic who thinks he is Napoleon or some such thing.
Bhagavan:
In a sense, speaking of Self-realization is a delusion. It is only because people have been under the delusion that the non-Self is the Self and the unreal the Real that they have to be weaned out of it by other delusion called Self-realization; because actually the Self always is the Self and there is no such thing as realizing it. Who is to realize what, and how, when all that exists is the Self and nothing but the Self?
of course but if you want to ignorantly talk about it like you understand it (such as myself  ) then you have to use language that distorts it.
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
JackofSpades said:
Quote:
Poid said:
He thought he was important..how is that not narcissistic?
You're horribly distorting this. The man didn't speak for two decades and lived alone on a mountain.
Why did he act so unusually? Surely because he didn't think of himself as being different/unique/special in relation to his contemporaries.
Quote:
JackofSpades said:
He never once claimed to be important or special.
Perhaps, but he did seem to think his teachings were pretty damn special.
Quote:
JackofSpades said:
Like most realized people he actually claimed the opposite that his realization was quite ordinary and simple.
Yeah, he considered himself "realized" (whatever that means)..if "realization" is quite ordinary and simple, then why is it generally treated like it's a big deal? If it were ordinary and simple, then there wouldn't be an entire forum dedicated to it and related topics.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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JackofSpades
Peace
Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2,897
Last seen: 3 months, 2 days
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Poid]
#14599688 - 06/12/11 09:07 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
JackofSpades said:
Quote:
Poid said:
He thought he was important..how is that not narcissistic?
You're horribly distorting this. The man didn't speak for two decades and lived alone on a mountain.
Why did he act so unusually? Surely because he didn't think of himself as being different/unique/special in relation to his contemporaries.
Quote:
JackofSpades said:
He never once claimed to be important or special.
Perhaps, but he did seem to think his teachings were pretty damn special.
Quote:
JackofSpades said:
Like most realized people he actually claimed the opposite that his realization was quite ordinary and simple.
Yeah, he considered himself "realized" (whatever that means)..if "realization" is quite ordinary and simple, then why is it generally treated like it's a big deal? If it were ordinary and simple, then there wouldn't be an entire forum dedicated to it and related topics.
Poid i like you but you just love to argue and I'm not interested in it. I like to have conversations that lead me to a deeper understanding, not those that exist as a competition. If you think he's narcissistic that's fine. I personally don't think he is
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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All humans are narcissistic to varying degrees..why would he be an exception? Unless he really was that special... 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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JackofSpades
Peace
Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2,897
Last seen: 3 months, 2 days
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Poid]
#14599698 - 06/12/11 09:18 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
All humans are narcissistic to varying degrees..why would he be an exception? Unless he really was that special...
who is it that is special? 
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Maharshi loved himself, did he not? See, narcissist. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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The Chronic
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 12,003
Loc:
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Poid]
#14599887 - 06/12/11 10:40 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Maybe you could relate it to DMT or something poid, in that state where you are totally disconnected from the body, what is there to possibly be narcissistic about?
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Are you telling me that it's possible for a human to be in that state indefinitely without the aid of drugs?
Why do you believe these things?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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The Chronic
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 12,003
Loc:
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Poid]
#14599901 - 06/12/11 10:45 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I don't believe that i ever came into or went out of that state
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Why, because there is no "I" to come in or go out, or some crap like that? 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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The Chronic
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 12,003
Loc:
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Poid]
#14599913 - 06/12/11 10:49 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Nope, it's because when i honestly look at who i am, with no preconceptions, then that is what i feel as my experience
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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So if you never came into or went out of that state, that means you've never even experienced that state.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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The Chronic
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 12,003
Loc:
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Poid]
#14599921 - 06/12/11 10:52 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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You can temporarily experience what you always are
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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That's because life is temporary.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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The Chronic
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 12,003
Loc:
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Poid]
#14599957 - 06/12/11 11:08 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Every created thing is temporary, if something comes into existence it must go out of existence, if something has a start point it must have an end point
There must be an existence that precedes things that 'come into' or 'go out of' existence in order that they appear in the first place, an existence with no start or end
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
The Chronic said:
There must be an existence that precedes things that 'come into' or 'go out of' existence in order that they appear in the first place, an existence with no start or end
Why, because you say so?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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The Chronic
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 12,003
Loc:
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Poid]
#14599972 - 06/12/11 11:12 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I think its just common sense, if your father & mother did not exist then you would not
In order to give birth there must be an existence preceding that is alive
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,888
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
The Chronic said:
Every created thing is temporary, if something comes into existence it must go out of existence, if something has a start point it must have an end point
There must be an existence that precedes things that 'come into' or 'go out of' existence in order that they appear in the first place, an existence with no start or end
There must be an existence that precedes things that 'come into' or 'go out of' existence in order
I don't see why. It seems that is an unknown.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Cups
technically "here"
Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,924
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Poid]
#14600004 - 06/12/11 11:28 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Maharshi loved himself, did he not? See, narcissist.
Sure, but if you see literally no boundary between you and the "external" world...narcissism becomes something entirely different in that context would you not agree?
Filled with Self love and self-less at the same time.
(big S, small s)
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No more words of wisdom.
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The Chronic
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 12,003
Loc:
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Icelander]
#14600036 - 06/12/11 11:42 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
The Chronic said:
Every created thing is temporary, if something comes into existence it must go out of existence, if something has a start point it must have an end point
There must be an existence that precedes things that 'come into' or 'go out of' existence in order that they appear in the first place, an existence with no start or end
There must be an existence that precedes things that 'come into' or 'go out of' existence in order
I don't see why. It seems that is an unknown.
I know that i can't know existence, that i can only be existence
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vredstein
Stranger
Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 28
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Kickle] 1
#14607222 - 06/13/11 06:13 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
JackofSpades said:
actually he did return to his wife and child....
he left because he wanted to find the truth to why there is suffering. he saw an ascetic who seemed not to care about the pain of the world around him, so siddhartha followed that path...then he came home years later, his son Rahula joined the sangha as a monk as did his wife....
Oh? Source? That's cool.
Here's a link to an mp3 talk given by Ven. Bhikku Bodhi giving background on the circumstance surrounding Siddhartha's departure from his wife and child, along with a sutta, or oral instruction he gave directly to Rahula after he, himself became a disciple of the Buddha.
http://www.bodhimonastery.net/courses/MN/MP3/M0143_MN-062.mp3
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The Hairy Gown and Mossy Cell,
Where I may sit and rightly spell,
Of every Star that Heav'n doth shew,
And every Herb that sips the dew;
Till old experience do attain
To somthing like Prophetic strain.
These pleasures Melancholy give,
And I with thee will choose to live.
-Milton's Il Penseroso
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,082
Last seen: 18 hours, 27 minutes
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: vredstein]
#14607282 - 06/13/11 06:25 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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thanks for the link
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don_vedo
MerKaBa
Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 1,383
Loc: 5th dimension
Last seen: 17 days, 20 hours
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Kickle]
#14607321 - 06/13/11 06:35 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Yah great link brother thanks a lt for the link!
Lah'Kesh
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Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,888
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
The Chronic said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
The Chronic said:
Every created thing is temporary, if something comes into existence it must go out of existence, if something has a start point it must have an end point
There must be an existence that precedes things that 'come into' or 'go out of' existence in order that they appear in the first place, an existence with no start or end
There must be an existence that precedes things that 'come into' or 'go out of' existence in order
I don't see why. It seems that is an unknown.
I know that i can't know existence, that i can only be existence
Then you admit that claim was pure speculation on your part?
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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OneU
Registered: 03/19/11
Posts: 763
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Poid]
#14608012 - 06/13/11 08:43 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
That's because life is temporary.
"Death is not the opposite of Life, Birth is the opposite of Death. Life is all things in all forms and formlessness."
Poid, you approach everything with an ounce of skepticism and a touch of arrogance in that you think your way is the way. If you notice, no one that is truly 'spiritual' will every do what you do. They will not impose their own thoughts or beliefs on others because each being has a unique delicacy in coming to, awakening, being, realizing, or whatever is used to term that sense of no longer being asleep (metaphorically).
These traits you hold on to (among many others) only weigh you down in the depths of the ocean of Spirit. Until you let them go, you cannot hope to reach the surface.
It is hard for me to say these things because in so many ways can they be seen as an insult, but they aren't intended to be.
Before you ask another skeptical question, sit and ask yourself where the question comes from. Does it come from an insecurity of your identity? Does it come from the ego? Or does it come from somewhere else, and where?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,888
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: OneU]
#14608087 - 06/13/11 08:58 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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If you notice, no one that is truly 'spiritual' will every do what you do. They will not impose their own thoughts or beliefs on others because each being has a unique delicacy in coming to, awakening, being, realizing, or whatever is used to term that sense of no longer being asleep (metaphorically).
Then spiritual people in this forum are few and far between. Which is what I've always thought.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 7,658
Loc: 
Last seen: 18 days, 10 hours
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: deCypher]
#14608897 - 06/13/11 11:13 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Perhaps for the same reason that Jesus said "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple."? (Luke 14:26)
This quote and the story of Buddha's leaving his family I take to be metaphorical. My interpretation is that these two parables use family because our family members are something around which there is an extremely strong emotional charge that usually exists inside of us for our whole lives, often barely changing in its frequency, and sadly often negative. There are other things that carry similar negative charges - traumatic experiences etc. One has to be tired of being beholden to such crippling attachments, rejecting their static nature internally to open up to the flow of what's really, presently happening.
That's how I look at it, anyhow - I don't know enough to say whether Jesus or Buddha really existed, but if I had to bet my life I would bet that neither did, at least not in the often magical and miraculous ways in which they are described. And I have never met a pastor who purposely hated his family or a Buddhist Lama who encouraged followers to divorce their wives.
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JackofSpades
Peace
Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2,897
Last seen: 3 months, 2 days
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Lion]
#14610098 - 06/14/11 03:57 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lion said:
Quote:
deCypher said:
Perhaps for the same reason that Jesus said "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple."? (Luke 14:26)
This quote and the story of Buddha's leaving his family I take to be metaphorical. My interpretation is that these two parables use family because our family members are something around which there is an extremely strong emotional charge that usually exists inside of us for our whole lives, often barely changing in its frequency, and sadly often negative. There are other things that carry similar negative charges - traumatic experiences etc. One has to be tired of being beholden to such crippling attachments, rejecting their static nature internally to open up to the flow of what's really, presently happening.
That's how I look at it, anyhow - I don't know enough to say whether Jesus or Buddha really existed, but if I had to bet my life I would bet that neither did, at least not in the often magical and miraculous ways in which they are described. And I have never met a pastor who purposely hated his family or a Buddhist Lama who encouraged followers to divorce their wives.
there is much more evidence to suggest the buddha existed than otherwise. For instance, there is a pillar from 200 B.C. in Lumbini, marking the location of his birth placed by King Ashoka. There are ruins (stupas, temples, cremation sites, and pillars) specifically commemorating the buddha all constructed right around the time he died and they still remain to this day. The buddha is considered to be a historical figure who certainly existed. There are tales of miracles and magical stuf but obviously thats all just BS...however, as far as i know there is literally no dispute as to whether or not he existed, its widely accepted by scholars he was a real person.
I also know of a person who was told by a high-ranking official in the sangha (idk if it was a lama or rinpoche or monk or what) that she should become a nun and she was married at the time.
i also know little about jesus so im not going to say anything on him but i know there are people who suggest he wasn't real. but there are also people who think he was a mushroom  so whatever. i don't anything about him.
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
Edited by JackofSpades (06/14/11 04:01 AM)
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don_vedo
MerKaBa
Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 1,383
Loc: 5th dimension
Last seen: 17 days, 20 hours
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Icelander]
#14611119 - 06/14/11 11:58 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Then spiritual people in this forum are few and far between. Which is what I've always thought.
You would! I would have to say though that I think there are more spiritual people here then you think.
Lah'Kesh
--------------------
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,082
Last seen: 18 hours, 27 minutes
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Icelander]
#14611434 - 06/14/11 01:04 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
If you notice, no one that is truly 'spiritual' will every do what you do. They will not impose their own thoughts or beliefs on others because each being has a unique delicacy in coming to, awakening, being, realizing, or whatever is used to term that sense of no longer being asleep (metaphorically).
Then spiritual people in this forum are few and far between. Which is what I've always thought.
I haven't seen anyone this would apply to 100%
I'm actually skeptical it applies at all but instead think that social interactions are typically a shiny and attention getting gloss over the more raw feelings that are motivating the show
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The Chronic
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 12,003
Loc:
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Icelander]
#14612472 - 06/14/11 04:18 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
The Chronic said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
The Chronic said:
Every created thing is temporary, if something comes into existence it must go out of existence, if something has a start point it must have an end point
There must be an existence that precedes things that 'come into' or 'go out of' existence in order that they appear in the first place, an existence with no start or end
There must be an existence that precedes things that 'come into' or 'go out of' existence in order
I don't see why. It seems that is an unknown.
I know that i can't know existence, that i can only be existence
Then you admit that claim was pure speculation on your part?
It's speculation if only thought about/talked about
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,888
Loc: underbelly
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Thanks for owning that. Takes a big man.
--------------------
"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 5,170
Loc: 
Last seen: 1 hour, 22 minutes
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Kickle] 1
#16421060 - 06/22/12 05:28 PM (10 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Abandon his wife and child? And why even after his enlightenment did he not seek them out?
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,082
Last seen: 18 hours, 27 minutes
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White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 5,170
Loc:
Last seen: 1 hour, 22 minutes
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Kickle]
#16677705 - 08/10/12 06:51 PM (9 months, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Abandon his wife and child? And why even after his enlightenment did he not seek them out?
He abandoned palace life and his wife and child to delay his own enlightenment. Materialistic success was no longer a functioning death denying illusion as he saw the impermanence of it after his 4 journeys outside the palace. So he tried to become a spiritual d00d, hoping to find something of substance and permanence there. After 6 years he realized that spiritual experiences are just as fickle and transient as wealth, pleasure, and family so he gave those up too and became enlightened.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,888
Loc: underbelly
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Just like me. 
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 5,170
Loc:
Last seen: 1 hour, 22 minutes
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Icelander]
#16677820 - 08/10/12 07:08 PM (9 months, 7 days ago) |
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,888
Loc: underbelly
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Strange but true.
--------------------
"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 5,170
Loc:
Last seen: 1 hour, 22 minutes
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Icelander]
#16677837 - 08/10/12 07:10 PM (9 months, 7 days ago) |
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How is it? Enlightenment, that is.
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deff
just relax
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 7,058
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 3 days, 23 hours
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i hear it tastes a bit like dill pickles
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White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 5,170
Loc:
Last seen: 1 hour, 22 minutes
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: deff]
#16677871 - 08/10/12 07:12 PM (9 months, 7 days ago) |
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,888
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
White Beard said:
How is it? Enlightenment, that is.
It's fucking brutal, yet somehow satisfying.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Cactilove
Mystic
Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 4,498
Last seen: 5 hours, 25 minutes
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Kickle]
#16678704 - 08/10/12 09:34 PM (9 months, 7 days ago) |
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Even after the bohdi tree sidartha still suffered.
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I don't nor ever will know shit, stop acting like I do!
Stop claiming I have magic powers!
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 9,144
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 2 hours, 54 minutes
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Kickle]
#16679162 - 08/10/12 10:56 PM (9 months, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Abandon his wife and child? And why even after his enlightenment did he not seek them out?
It is said that his wife eventually found him, and became a disciple of his doctrine. While I do believe that Siddhartha of the Gautama clan was a historical being, like most religious personages, there has been a certain degree of mythologizing. For example, there are writings which say that at his first baby steps, lotus blossoms (which grow in water, as they are water-lilies), sprang from the steps he left in the soil. Clearly mythic language. The abandonment of his wife and child - no doubt an arranged marriage, as marriages for love are a modern convention - may belong to a general mythologizing of 'The Hero' on 'The Hero's Journey,' in the sense that Joseph Campbell wrote about it. There was his 7 (symbolic) years among the rishis, the renunciants, during which time he starved himself almost to death. The rishis supposedly abandoned him when he took rice and milk from a woman, but that gave him strength to continue in his meditations, and from that he realized the Middle Way.
These are all stages of archetypal processes, so it is difficult to tell, even in this case, where historicity ends and mythology begins. His wealthy Kshatria family could no doubt have taken good care of Siddhartha's wife and child. It does appear to be a serious glitch in his compassion-based ethics to abandon wife and child, but a similar theme can be found with Jesus going to his flogging-crucifixion, leaving his mother and "beloved disciple" John at the foot of the cross: "When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he said to his mother, Woman, behold your son! Then said he to the disciple, Behold your mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home." - John 19:26-27. The Hero's Journey transcends the conventional social-emotional realities of life for a solitary pursuit of Truth.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (08/10/12 11:03 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 9,144
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 2 hours, 54 minutes
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: deCypher]
#16679267 - 08/10/12 11:16 PM (9 months, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Perhaps for the same reason that Jesus said "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple."? (Luke 14:26)
I agree with your comparison, although I don't think the word "hate" carries the same virulent meaning we have today. I get the point of an aversion to the social-emotional attachments that keep us from developing beyond the norms of our own families. Non-individuated beings do not want to grow beyond the limitations of their family members lest they offend them, be rejected or disowned. This kind of exile is just too much for many people, evidenced by homelessness and suicide by gay children, for example, who are rejected for their 'wayward' ways.
My parents weren't too bad when I went from being a Reformed Jew, to entering the Catholic Church, and then attending a Methodist seminary. But, my Zionist uncle would not attend my Messianic Jewish wedding, and my female cousins on the other side of the family, whose mother escaped the Holocaust, treated me as a traitor, as if Christians and Nazis were somehow on the same side. I am averse to those people, and affectionately say "Fuck 'em!," which I see as a modern rendering of your biblical quote.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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Quest_ions
IM RETARDED
Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 5,201
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Kickle]
#16686285 - 08/12/12 09:17 AM (9 months, 6 days ago) |
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The same reason I cant hang out with my friends anymore after discovering the powers of DMT-related drugs.
we just are so different now..im not saying im 'better' or anything...we are just...different..
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,888
Loc: underbelly
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Same here. I just can't get what it is they are going on about. Seems like the most meager fare entertains them.
--------------------
"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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crkhd
☾☼☽
Registered: 12/29/08
Posts: 1,911
Loc: A human sphere enfolding ...
Last seen: 8 hours, 52 seconds
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: deff]
#16686621 - 08/12/12 11:23 AM (9 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
deff said:
i hear it tastes a bit like dill pickles
A little birdy told me it tasted like rusty coins and felt like bags of sand...
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"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."
"THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker
<i AM breath rippling through water|light reflecting to self with thought AM i>
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The Human Floyd
Registered: 12/11/11
Posts: 85
Last seen: 1 month, 19 days
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Icelander]
#16686931 - 08/12/12 12:55 PM (9 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Same here. I just can't get what it is they are going on about. Seems like the most meager fare entertains them.
Are you saying that there is something out there more worthwhile than meagerness?
It could be that meager fare is the sweetest fruit of life. Maybe that's something that the Buddha didn't quite understand when he first left his wife and kid. Like White Beard was saying, spiritual experiences are as flimsy as anything else.
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A good traveler has no fixed plans, and is not intent on arriving. - Tao Te Ching Chapter 27
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 9,144
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 2 hours, 54 minutes
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Quote:
TheMushroomJesus said:
The same reason I cant hang out with my friends anymore after discovering the powers of DMT-related drugs.
we just are so different now..im not saying im 'better' or anything...we are just...different..
Care to elaborate?
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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ConfettiHead
Deprogrammed Hologram
Registered: 06/14/12
Posts: 558
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Re: Why did the Buddha [Re: Kickle]
#16687923 - 08/12/12 04:46 PM (9 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
TheMushroomJesus said:
The same reason I cant hang out with my friends anymore after discovering the powers of DMT-related drugs.
we just are so different now..im not saying im 'better' or anything...we are just...different..
I totally get what you are saying. I used to be really into hardcore/metal music (still kind of am) and so all of my friends come from that scene. However, after a solid two years of taking mushrooms, acid, DMT, etc. I started to pull away from that music and those people. I just realized that the music and the people related to it are big on identifying with ego and body. This leads to separation from other people and from our true self.
I still love my friends, I hang out with them and I still attend some shows, but I have noticed that I am a lot different than them now and that I am not as interested in the things they are interested in anymore.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,888
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
The Human Floyd said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Same here. I just can't get what it is they are going on about. Seems like the most meager fare entertains them.
Are you saying that there is something out there more worthwhile than meagerness?
It could be that meager fare is the sweetest fruit of life. Maybe that's something that the Buddha didn't quite understand when he first left his wife and kid. Like White Beard was saying, spiritual experiences are as flimsy as anything else.
I gave up my TV and now we have nothing to talk about. 
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Quest_ions
IM RETARDED
Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 5,201
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
TheMushroomJesus said:
The same reason I cant hang out with my friends anymore after discovering the powers of DMT-related drugs.
we just are so different now..im not saying im 'better' or anything...we are just...different..
Care to elaborate?
Yeah my friends(i still consider them friends)do not question, read, enjoy nature, see life as something else than a meaningless mystery, they dont have the attention span to sit down and watch a 5 minute video on entheogens(even though they love alcohol and thinks LSD fries your brain and makes you jump from windows) my friends do not listen to any kind of music besides 'lil wayne' and 'wiz khalifa'..they try to act cool by telling stories that are far fabricated....i could go on forever.
They are my friends and i do not think i am better than them because my life has steered in a different direction since my entheogenic experimenting.
They just do not want to learn. Thats the bottom line. Thats what seperates us, They dont appreciate "all of this". I love em tho things are just different. Sorry I am little drunk i never drink so for i just got back from a babyshower so sorry if this doesnt make the most sense.
TMJ
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ITS BULLSHIT so I Bark At The Moon..
Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.
"I believed Joe Rogan, Terrence McKenna, Justin Bieber, my mum, sister and/or friends were outside with a loaded gun ready to kill me if I didn't piss myself" - stereotypical shroomery n00b
4-acO-DMT= Evolution
Edited by Quest_ions (08/12/12 09:16 PM)
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Cactilove
Mystic
Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 4,498
Last seen: 5 hours, 25 minutes
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haha damn those friends sound boring.
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I don't nor ever will know shit, stop acting like I do!
Stop claiming I have magic powers!
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 9,144
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 2 hours, 54 minutes
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Quote:
TheMushroomJesus said:
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
TheMushroomJesus said:
The same reason I cant hang out with my friends anymore after discovering the powers of DMT-related drugs.
we just are so different now..im not saying im 'better' or anything...we are just...different..
Care to elaborate?
Yeah my friends(i still consider them friends)do not question, read, enjoy nature, see life as something else than a meaningless mystery, they dont have the attention span to sit down and watch a 5 minute video on entheogens(even though they love alcohol and thinks LSD fries your brain and makes you jump from windows) my friends do not listen to any kind of music besides 'lil wayne' and 'wiz khalifa'..they try to act cool by telling stories that are far fabricated....i could go on forever.
They are my friends and i do not think i am better than them because my life has steered in a different direction since my entheogenic experimenting.
They just do not want to learn. Thats the bottom line. Thats what seperates us, They dont appreciate "all of this". I love em tho things are just different. Sorry I am little drunk i never drink so for i just got back from a babyshower so sorry if this doesnt make the most sense.
TMJ
Thanks for the response. I understand not turning your back on your friends, but eventually, depending upon how resilient you are, social isolation may draw you back to the one's whom you get nothing from anymore. That's OK, because friendships often die of themselves. We have become socially isolated due to our age, our interests (or lack of common interests), and our location in an ethnocentric city where people are afraid to step out of their cultural comfort zones. It has always been difficult for me to make friends. I was never the least bit interested in sports, I was a childhood experimenter (but not a straight-A nerd), and then drug experimentation alienated me further. After my first acid trip, I was changed forever (and for the good)! But, except for an older art therapist we know, there is nobody in or near my age who trips, meditates, reads, learns for the joy of it, grows or wants to grow (except financially, or around their waistline). My Lady has a grown daughter, and I have no children, so family-people regard me at least, as too Bohemian for them (which is to say, I'm not as pedestrian as they are). Most people seem to me to be on the proverbial "Twinkie diet." No matter how many you eat, you're dying of malnutrition. People just want more money, more food, and more sex. That is the extent of their lives, except perhaps for dulling drugs to kill the pain of their deadly boredom and their death-anxiety. The few acquaintances we've had, have never, and would never, take mushrooms with us. But then again, they are so boring and unimaginative, as well as oddly secretive, that a 'bright light' would scare the shit out of them and their unreflective lives. Frankly, if I can't have friends who bring me up, then the only alternative are people who drain my enthusiasm and bring me down. I'd rather be by myself, or with my Lady.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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Cactilove
Mystic
Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 4,498
Last seen: 5 hours, 25 minutes
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more pleasure, more pleasure, and more pleasure
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I don't nor ever will know shit, stop acting like I do!
Stop claiming I have magic powers!
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ConfettiHead
Deprogrammed Hologram
Registered: 06/14/12
Posts: 558
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Quote:
Thanks for the response. I understand not turning your back on your friends, but eventually, depending upon how resilient you are, social isolation may draw you back to the one's whom you get nothing from anymore. That's OK, because friendships often die of themselves. We have become socially isolated due to our age, our interests (or lack of common interests), and our location in an ethnocentric city where people are afraid to step out of their cultural comfort zones. It has always been difficult for me to make friends. I was never the least bit interested in sports, I was a childhood experimenter (but not a straight-A nerd), and then drug experimentation alienated me further. After my first acid trip, I was changed forever (and for the good)! But, except for an older art therapist we know, there is nobody in or near my age who trips, meditates, reads, learns for the joy of it, grows or wants to grow (except financially, or around their waistline). My Lady has a grown daughter, and I have no children, so family-people regard me at least, as too Bohemian for them (which is to say, I'm not as pedestrian as they are). Most people seem to me to be on the proverbial "Twinkie diet." No matter how many you eat, you're dying of malnutrition. People just want more money, more food, and more sex. That is the extent of their lives, except perhaps for dulling drugs to kill the pain of their deadly boredom and their death-anxiety. The few acquaintances we've had, have never, and would never, take mushrooms with us. But then again, they are so boring and unimaginative, as well as oddly secretive, that a 'bright light' would scare the shit out of them and their unreflective lives. Frankly, if I can't have friends who bring me up, then the only alternative are people who drain my enthusiasm and bring me down. I'd rather be by myself, or with my Lady.
I am the same way. It's nice to know there are others out there like me.
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