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Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend
Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,830
Loc: Canada
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Fractal420]
#21881666 - 07/01/15 05:11 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Great post mustang. Not sure if you have read through my log on the cross but some interesting things happened. The first gen showed neither of the reccessive traits. The fruits were neither leucistic or rust spored but some did have the bell shaped caps common to AA and they also had the caramel colored pins that I usually see with CRS. I cloned one just in case (at the time I wasn't even sure why I did that).
Workman even chimed in as the same thing happened with his PE PF albino cross. Second gen was a head scratcher. All manner of results. Leucistic fruits, normal fruits, rusty ones but none with both. I grew many cultres and almost gave up hope. Then I spotted a pin in a plate that looked right and dropped brown spores in the plate. I swabbed the spores and cloned the fruit.
The clone produced perfect fruits, very leucistic, with rich brown spores. I started to do a lot of research on genetics and found that I was actually lucky to have found that fruit as early as I did. I still have that clone and am currently growing the spores out for the 3rd gen. So far its producing a shit ton of mutants but I should get to see the spores tonight as the veils are stretching right now
The fourth generation from all I have read should be stable by this point. Very excited. It has been a great experience growing these, I learned a lot in the process. Anyway thanks for your great posts on genetics, you brought some great conversation in my cube is a cube thread.
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist
Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Fractal420]
#21881669 - 07/01/15 05:13 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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yes but if PE lost all the visual traits what apart from potency would separate this variety?
it would just become a cube but with better potency.
potency is great but lots like the novelty too.
must also note that people say the blobs are more potent and they may be lost! showing as the genes shift so could average potency of the PE and then it would just be a cube lol
it more about what could happen or what the hints are saying could happen that worrys some people
me myself still have not grown any PE variety lol oneday hopefully when i choose to the PE still is what it has always been regarded to be
no doubt it will be fine as lots of sources so the genes will bottleneck in different ways.
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist
Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Pastywhyte]
#21881673 - 07/01/15 05:16 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Great post mustang. Not sure if you have read through my log on the cross but some interesting things happened. The first gen showed neither of the reccessive traits. The fruits were neither leucistic or rust spored but some did have the bell shaped caps common to AA and they also had the caramel colored pins that I usually see with CRS. I cloned one just in case (at the time I wasn't even sure why I did that).
yes sometimes you will have inbreed to search the filal generations up 2nd or sometimes 3rd to open up the genetic catalog and find the fruit with the combo of traits you want to use then clone it and print it , use the clone as a stud.
hope this helps
Quote:
The clone produced perfect fruits, very leucistic, with rich brown spores. I started to do a lot of research on genetics and found that I was actually lucky to have found that fruit as early as I did. I still have that clone and am currently growing the spores out for the 3rd gen. So far its producing a shit ton of mutants but I should get to see the spores tonight as the veils are stretching right now
please tel me you have a culture of this 1st fruit with the combo of traits!!!! and a print of it too? its your KEY
if so cube that bad boy using 1 spore from the print and grow a monok. culture then when colonised inject a little of the fruits culture to make it di-k. and fruit select a fruit with traits too print and repeat backcross to the original culture using this sporeprint (using 1 spore again) and then repeat again.
after 3 backcross you will have tubs full of the trait combo you want. the grow as normal for afew generations. then release it!!
it might seem like going backwards but i would ditch pastytard and go back and cube what you was lucky to find!! if you dont someone will after you release it... so you might aswel get the credit
or it will come out as 2.0 or improved later
replicate that what you found then stabilize
i feel honored giving tip to a pro
EDIT: You may want to have 5-10 single spore monocultures at each stage so you can use and fruit all to give better intial chances of getting what you want, finding compatible mating spores and leave room for to have more fruits with the traits you want but also being able to selecting on other secondary critrea i.e size,clustes ect at the same time
if you take my advice and backcross/cube it you should call the new variety, as a piss take to all the crazy names, just simply name it ...
'CUBED'
tbh most even back cross a 4th time to give a percentage in the 90s you can keep going but you will never get to 100% het and some spores/fruits will not show the traits you want.
you can never remove this. only change the frequency the traits you dont want appear.
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Edited by mustangbob3 (07/01/15 05:50 AM)
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insanemike
Registered: 02/23/14
Posts: 4,272
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: mustangbob3] 1
#21881750 - 07/01/15 06:14 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Where is the section on genetics, again?...oh...here it is.
All of you amateur geneticists give me a hard on.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend
Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,830
Loc: Canada
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: insanemike]
#21881845 - 07/01/15 07:07 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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I do have a swab of the spores, was too late for a print. Also have a clone of the culture, am about to fruit a tub of it here soon. So with backcrossing I simply colonize media with the monokaron then introduce the clone? I was under the impression that backcrossing was more restrictive when working for reccessive traits, or is that simply when searching for them initially? Also most of the well known crosses, specifically the APE were only selfed going forward after the initial cross. APE seems to be stabile enough, is it that the backcross will further limit other traits in addition to the obvious recessives?
So far the F2 clone is a great performer and has some of the best potency i have seen with cubes other than the PE lines. If I could ensure continuation of that with back crossing I will be all over it. Need to get a scope I guess.
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist
Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Pastywhyte]
#21881871 - 07/01/15 07:24 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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basically by keep backcrossing to the same clone culture you at each generation increase the amount of the clone genes in the next generation.
think about it half the genes are taken from the clone and half from the single spore..... ( the single spore itself is from the clone so is a mix of that genes anyway, but i wont take this into concideration in the number that follow. but this does compound the effect making selction and finding fruits easy as it is already vastly narrowed)
....thus creating and resetting the spores to be made up of 50% of the clones genes and 50% of the single spores. just lots of combinations.
when you at the next generation backcross- 50% of stud genes + (25% original single spores genes + 25% stud genes)
then next... 50% of stud genes + (12.5% single spore + 37.5 stud genes)
and so on.
all that happens is your adjusting the genes to match manily the stud.
then when you grow normal prints after they are pretty stable already as most of the genetic info contained is just a mix up of combinations of manily your stud fruits gentetics.
does that make sense.
backcrosssing decreases the frequency of everything that is not a trait that belongs to your stud fruit.
so any print from any given fruit will contain a mix of basicaly the studs genes in different expressions. giving lots of what you want. and minimal of what you dont.
you start by making the initial cross as you did then grow the 1st filal generation out. if the combo of traits is not shown you will need to select promising fruits to print to seach the 2nd filal generation. again if the traits you want in not present in a fruit the go to the 3rd.
but soon as you find a fruit with the combo of traits. make print and a culture.
use this culture as a stud. and use the print to isolate monok. cultures and grow on substrate till 100%.
these cannot fruit. but when you add the dik. myc from the clone culture it will exchange info at the clamps and become a dik. network allowing fruiting. the next generation will be a mix of 50/50 of each parent( lets just call the clone 1 parent and monok. culture another)
then fruit the thing, print 1 that has the traits you want(shouldnt take much seaching at this point.)
then cross a new monok culture of these new spore back to the original culture again.ect
repeat 3 or 4 times.
now your stud fruits traits should appear most of the time.
semi stable.
a few grew of growing and discarding any that dont match from printing and it should be concidered stable enough for release.
remember backcrossing is not removing anything it just changes the frequecy of the traits that appear visually in the genepool. more spore with the correct alleles to match to create the expression and the more this happen with in any give print, the more fruits that exibit the visual trait will appear.
its like you mating with your daughter that looks like you and then having a baby that looks like you.
the grandaughter grows up and you mate with her. resulting in more children like you.
then you mate with your great grand child that looks like you lol
what happens is after when anyone from this line breeds for several generations they will mostly come out as recombinations of you util you are bred out.
but if your great grand children interbreed they would contiune to make recombinations of your traits.
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Edited by mustangbob3 (07/01/15 07:59 AM)
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend
Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,830
Loc: Canada
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: mustangbob3]
#21881925 - 07/01/15 07:58 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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But since the clone is already dikarotic then are we relying on anastomosis to introduce the new genetics? That would probably be best if I colonize grains with the monokaron then add the the clone after to increase intersection.
Since we are at risk of getting off topic I would like to continue this in my journal if thats okay with you mustang.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21590994#21590994
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist
Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Pastywhyte]
#21881931 - 07/01/15 08:03 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
But since the clone is already dikarotic then are we relying on anastomosis to introduce the new genetics? That would probably be best if I colonize grains with the monokaron then add the the clone after to increase intersection.
Since we are at risk of getting off topic I would like to continue this in my journal if thats okay with you mustang.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21590994#21590994
yes thats exactly how you do it.
grow monok cultures from the clones spores
when 100% inject clone culture and info exchange happens and then all becomes dik and it will fruit
then repeat for the resulting spores
and always take back to the original clone culture to reinforce it. after 3 or 4 generations most fruits should have the combo of traits.
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Edited by mustangbob3 (07/01/15 08:05 AM)
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PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations
Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: mustangbob3]
#21882785 - 07/01/15 12:49 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
mustangbob3 said: yes but if PE lost all the visual traits what apart from potency would separate this variety?
it would just become a cube but with better potency.
potency is great but lots like the novelty too.
must also note that people say the blobs are more potent and they may be lost! showing as the genes shift so could average potency of the PE and then it would just be a cube lol
it more about what could happen or what the hints are saying could happen that worrys some people
me myself still have not grown any PE variety lol oneday hopefully when i choose to the PE still is what it has always been regarded to be
no doubt it will be fine as lots of sources so the genes will bottleneck in different ways.
I don't think the blobs are more potent. I rarely get any since I case the subs, and I suspect the blobs (which I've seen with other strains, generally those that have gnarly stems) are just a reflection of its weird fruiting behavior. I'll also point out again that PE I've grown (all from SW) has exhibited separable hygrophanous pellicles, which isn't something I've seen in other cubes.
And yes, to an earlier point, selection for spore dropping could alter the strain, but practically speaking swabbing isn't rocket science and it works beautifully. A swab I took a few years ago and stored in the fridge germinated in less than a week when streaked on PDY agar with zero contamination.
BTW this discussion is FAR more on-topic than most of what's been in the strain thread recently. And thanks for the explanation of backcrossing -
-------------------- if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
Edited by PrimalSoup (07/01/15 12:55 PM)
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NumeroEno
I come from the land of lizards
Registered: 07/24/14
Posts: 9,652
Loc: Gamehendge
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: PrimalSoup]
#21883845 - 07/01/15 05:10 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Wow. Good info in here. Pasty and mustangbob, do either of you have links for further reading on this?
-------------------- Let it grow! Let it grow! Greatly yield! What shall we say, shall we call it by a name As well to count the angels dancing on a pin Water bright as the sky from which it came And the name is on the earth that takes it in DOG FOOD AGAR MY ELECTRIC INOCULATION LOOP
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TravelAgency
The ongoing "wow"
Registered: 12/25/10
Posts: 4,431
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: mustangbob3]
#21885618 - 07/01/15 11:15 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Over my head a bit but monitoring and absorbing as much as I can. Fascinating!
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blackout
Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 5,266
Last seen: 4 months, 21 days
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: mustangbob3]
#21889225 - 07/02/15 05:53 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
mustangbob3 said: oneday hopefully when i choose to the PE still is what it has always been regarded to be
Vendors can keep old cultures which they can go back to at any time. I know one went back to PE that had been kept in "cold storage" when they saw trouble with what they were producing at the time. Similar happened with PF classic, the FSRE used to have what I think was described as PFC90 on their lists, which was before they "restarted", 90 referring to the 1990s. It has probably happened with others too, I am not sure if I heard any others publicly declared to have been "restarted" by going back to old spores or cultures.
There are 2 vendors I would trust to get PE from, I expect most can guess who. One however does not send internationally, so I would guess many people outside of the US have the other vendors spores. There are colonised growkits of PE sold in the EU and I would guess these are from that vendors spores too. People could have traded of course.
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oontribe
Registered: 01/14/15
Posts: 3,570
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: blackout]
#21891458 - 07/03/15 06:31 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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what you guys think about PF redspore??
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Aero
Orea
Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 2,253
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: oontribe]
#21891504 - 07/03/15 06:52 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
oontribe said: what you guys think about PF redspore??
Highly recommended. Won't disappoint you. Very prolific
-------------------- SPREAD THE SPORES
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oontribe
Registered: 01/14/15
Posts: 3,570
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Aero]
#21891642 - 07/03/15 07:55 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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awsome . should i treat it just like any cube when i spawn to bulk...or should i case?
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Aero
Orea
Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 2,253
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: oontribe]
#21891668 - 07/03/15 08:05 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
oontribe said: awsome . should i treat it just like any cube when i spawn to bulk...or should i case?
As any other cube. They'll do fine. Very domesticated
-------------------- SPREAD THE SPORES
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oontribe
Registered: 01/14/15
Posts: 3,570
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Aero]
#21891684 - 07/03/15 08:12 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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thanks aero
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TravelAgency
The ongoing "wow"
Registered: 12/25/10
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: oontribe]
#21894490 - 07/03/15 08:50 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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So are; what I used to know as "wavy caps" a special strain or just mutants? I haven't seen shit about the old school wavy caps.
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GreenRabbit
Plutonium Pollinator
Registered: 04/28/13
Posts: 2,667
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: TravelAgency]
#21894582 - 07/03/15 09:09 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Around here, wavy caps are P. Cyanescens
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TravelAgency
The ongoing "wow"
Registered: 12/25/10
Posts: 4,431
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: GreenRabbit]
#21894727 - 07/03/15 09:45 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ok that makes a lot more sense- haven't seen them referred to as "wavy caps" since my return- seeing as it's a completely different species I'd say that's a good thing
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