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 ILBIACCO
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 Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: ILBIACCO]
#14300264 - 04/16/11 09:12 AM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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I've found an handful of Black Poplar mushroom in the wild three days ago, and i've placed them in a fermented corn jar. Afterwards i've set a piece of wet cardboard on the mushrooms to see if A.Aegerita also will grow on this substrate .
So far the experiment seems going well and the mushrooms have started to grow.
But it's still too early...
Greetings.
Edited by ILBIACCO (04/16/11 09:13 AM)
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Lennybernadino
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 Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: ILBIACCO]
#14300667 - 04/16/11 11:33 AM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Just posting so this shw up in my threads, nothing ueseful to say just being selfhish and all .
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 Mycelio
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At least you didn't post that annoying 'I have nothing to add' image. 
@ILBIACCO
Good luck! All the A. aegeritas I tried didn't like cardboard, but were able to colonize fermenting areas in grain jars. In case of problems, colonizing some hardwood sawdust and then covering the fermented corn with the sawdust should be the easiest way.
Carsten
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drosmoka
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#14308863 - 04/17/11 07:57 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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very interesting the way this works although i don't think i'll use this soon
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ILBIACCO
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: drosmoka]
#14310471 - 04/18/11 03:49 AM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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You're right Carsten.
Utilizing sawdust it's more easy to avoid the problem of rot tissue, that i've just had with oysters in my last fermented grains jars.
I'll do a try with the sawdust in the next weeks.
For the moment, i've interrupted my Ostreatus experiments and now i'm focussed on Aegerita, by far one of my favourite edible mushrooms, but only after Agaricus Campester and his brothers, A.Arvensis, A.Macrosporus...
Yeah. I know it. I'm an weird italian guy, considering that here people love porcino madly (B.Aereus, B.Edulis...) and most of the mushroom hunters collect only it.  
Thanks. I need all the luck of the world.
Edited by ILBIACCO (04/18/11 04:38 AM)
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: ILBIACCO]
#14310608 - 04/18/11 05:44 AM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
ILBIACCO said:
Yeah. I know it. I'm an weird italian guy, considering that here people love porcino madly (B.Aereus, B.Edulis...) and most of the mushroom hunters collect only it.
Us weird Americans like boletes too. I can't walk past one in the woods without stopping to get it. 
RR
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
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ILBIACCO
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: RogerRabbit]
#14312424 - 04/18/11 01:20 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Ciao Roger.
Yep. I like boletes, especially the Fabulous Four (not from Liverpool ) ,B.Aereus, Edulis, Reticulatus and Pinicola, called "porcini" in Italy. They are choice mushrooms and very enjoyable to seek out in the woods.
But i am truly weird... as compared with the other italian mushroom hunters. While the most of them are crazy for these mushrooms, i prefer to look for Agaricus spp.
If i am in the wood searching for boletes and i meet someone who says: "listen to me, up there, on top of that hill there is a pasture full of horse mushrooms"  i flee the forest and i run like hell towards the grassland.
Update.I've checked my pioppino jar. Well. The stem butts are, how can i say, very "fuzzy" and they are sticking to the cardboard and the grains but the growth seems very slow.
Edited by ILBIACCO (09/16/11 05:23 AM)
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Lennybernadino
Amazon grower
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: ILBIACCO]
#14328299 - 04/21/11 02:35 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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I used to get a lot of B. Barrowsi in New Mexico, made me a lot of moeny one year so its deffinitely my favorite(the white one)
ok something to add ON SUBJECT even....
i am going to grab the solid asexual spore chunks in my overmature Volveriella volvacae grain spawns, and try throwing them in this fermented grain stuff. The reason : It may be a way to get around the Trich problems I am having and I am intending to introduce mushroom cultivation to this part of the Amazon in a poor third world country, the less technology the better , Also If I can grab these asexual spore chunks and find a better way to deal with them and avoid increasing Trich contamination I could theoreticly have an infinitely expanding Grain spawn lineage wich will NEVER senesce so I will give it a try and let everyone know and well I may never post a picture though
jER
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Mycelio
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Interesting. According to literature, V.v. mycelium should be able to grow at a PH between 3 and 4, only slower than usual. Please keep us updated.
BTW: I just found large zip-lock bags make much better fermentation containers than jars. You fill in your fermentation material plus water, press out all the air, close and from time to time you let out CO2, if necessary. This way there is no surface, having contact with outside air, so no unwanted growth of yeasts on top will happen, while floating kernels can't catch mold.
Carsten
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Lennybernadino
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#14350083 - 04/25/11 03:39 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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I just filled the ziplocks today, I decided that I am going to balance out the PH in some of the grain to see if it is some reason other than the PH that is limiting contaminants we shall see what happens in two weeks or so .
jEr
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aris
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"All the noobs jump on it like sliced bread has just been invented, and then. . . .nothing." RR
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Mycelio
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Quote:
Lennybernadino said:
I just filled the ziplocks today, I decided that I am going to balance out the PH in some of the grain to see if it is some reason other than the PH that is limiting contaminants we shall see what happens in two weeks or so .
jEr
In my understanding, there is a competition of various species going on in the first days of fermentation. The dropping PH should be important for the lactic acid bacteria to keep their competitors from multiplying, though they also produce small amounts of antibacterial substances as well as some H2O2. I'm pretty sure the PH prevents mold spores from germinating after the fermentation.
In case you are using straw as the base substrate, you may also try to ferment that straw. It usually ends up with a PH between 5 and 6. I'm currently testing straw, which has been fermented together with grain, alfalfa and coffee grounds (10% each, alfalfa and coffee added after the fermentation got strong), which ended up with PH 4. Covering that stuff with substrate spawn of various Pleurotus species works fine, while mixing don't. I only see growth at the surface, where the mycelium gets enough fresh air.
Carsten
PS: When fermienting in sealed bags, there is very little production of CO2, which is fine.
Edited by Mycelio (04/27/11 07:14 AM)
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Lennybernadino
Amazon grower
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#14361785 - 04/27/11 02:41 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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It occured to me that here in the tropics fermentation happens quite a bit faster then your part of the world, after the first night I could detect the sour smell, today the ph is at 4.3 nore or less it seems all is going as it should, something has come in the night and bit a tiny hole in one bag each night, so I switched containers , a few quart jars and a big covered bucket .
I may work with straw but all the rice growers are across a river from me so I will have to bring he spawn to the straw when i am ready, right now I am working with shredded palm heart waste wich is composted a few days or a week or so(I take the hot shit and pasteurize it), I got the first ones kinda wrong but the last one right but I think the yield on this substrate is not very good, I will find out for sure when the last one that I got right fruits. I am going to start experimenting with sacha-inchi hulls, Sacha inchi is a local super food . These hulls are deffinitely more nutritios and I will deffinitely try fermenting them.
looks like I will be able to inoculate soon
jEr
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 Alkaloids
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I've been intrigued by the idea of competitive exclusion for a while mycelio. Excellent thread and i look forward to adding some of my own thoughts and findings in time. Thank you to all the contributors.
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Mycelio
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Quote:
Lennybernadino said:
It occured to me that here in the tropics fermentation happens quite a bit faster then your part of the world, after the first night I could detect the sour smell, today the ph is at 4.3 nore or less it seems all is going as it should, something has come in the night and bit a tiny hole in one bag each night, so I switched containers , a few quart jars and a big covered bucket.
Right, we have lower temps, less humidity, less microbes and less hole biting somethings here. Your fermentation will go much faster, perhaps 5 to 7 days will be enough then. Just check the smell each day. It starts sweet sour and towards the end you should notice some vinegar component getting stronger.
Quote:
Lennybernadino said:I may work with straw but all the rice growers are across a river from me so I will have to bring he spawn to the straw when i am ready, right now I am working with shredded palm heart waste wich is composted a few days or a week or so(I take the hot shit and pasteurize it), I got the first ones kinda wrong but the last one right but I think the yield on this substrate is not very good, I will find out for sure when the last one that I got right fruits. I am going to start experimenting with sacha-inchi hulls, Sacha inchi is a local super food . These hulls are deffinitely more nutritios and I will deffinitely try fermenting them.
looks like I will be able to inoculate soon
jEr
Fascinating. Do you also test Pleurotus species? Sajor-Caju or pink oysters do exceptionally well on pasteurized or fermented substrates.
Carsten
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Alkaloids]
#14362842 - 04/27/11 05:36 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Alkaloids said:
I've been intrigued by the idea of competitive exclusion for a while mycelio. Excellent thread and i look forward to adding some of my own thoughts and findings in time. Thank you to all the contributors.
Thats nice to read, thank you too!
Carsten
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Lennybernadino
Amazon grower
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#14373470 - 04/29/11 03:13 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Testing the Ph this morning it is right at 4 maybe a little less so tomorrow mornig I am going to drain and inoculate . I am going to try three species, Straw mushrooms of course, some Oyster mushroom (ostreatus) that my frines has some FP plug spawn of, and Cubensis from a experiment I did using the palm heart waste, it grew aggresively at first but the sunbstrate was poorly drained and I had to make a small hole in one of the corners after I noticed, where the access water drained away . well the bag coloonized quickly except that last corner wich stoped the mycelium for a while then it got used to it and colonized the last corner. my theory is that the last corner had a bacterial colony that was giving the cube trouble so this cube I have has already dealt with having to adjust to a bacterial rich lower Ph environment wich may help ease the shock of being put in a more bacterial rich lower ph environment .
I have a hard time limiting myself to three species! but everytime I do too much new things at the same time everything fails and all I end up learning is that I should not do so much at once . Anyway I look foward to seeing what happens I am really excited about trying this technique, this really could be the thing that makes it possible to teach local farmers to grow mushrooms in the Amazon .
I grew the pink Oysters on coconut fiber with good results but I have lost all my pink cultures since then, in my make shift Labratoy nwith way too many climatic variations it is hard to store cultures but I am soon going to be working with a much better Lab setup .
Have you ever tried reishi with fermented substrate/spawn ?
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Mycelio
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No, never grew Reishi myself. I think it would be great if you could find and teach a way to grow mushrooms on fermented local material without the need for a heat treatment.
Here is a picture of oyster mycelium growing into the above mentioned fermented supplemented straw pellets, also at PH 4. It took twice as long to start growing in and it grows with half speed, but incredibly dense.
Carsten
Edited by Mycelio (04/29/11 06:06 PM)
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Alkaloids
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Posts: 627
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#14389431 - 05/02/11 02:52 PM (1 year, 28 days ago) |
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The thought occurred to me that a easy way to provide anaerobic conditions would be to layer some oil on top of the water in which the grain is soaking and fermenting. I've done this before for solutions and chemicals that require a buffer from atmospheric oxygen. Since oils are ubiquitous there should be food grade oils available anywhere humans are. The oil could be decanted after fermentation is done to be re-used as well.
In theory this should also stop yeast from gaining a foothold as well.
Had anyone here tried this? I didn't noticed any mention of it when i read through the thread.
Another idea that came to mind is an amalgam of mycelio and quickpick's thoughts. It seems that, since this fermentation is based off of lactobaccilli spp., that by starting the fermentation with a concentrated lac b solution might impart some benefits. In terms of excluding competitor organisms having a concentrated lac b serum (derived from isolation using the milk technique) would all, but guarantee that pathogens would show up in numbers large enough to be troubling.
There are some other ideas i had, but they are missing in action. When i remember them i'll write some more. I'm interested in experimenting with this and when i start up i'll document it and add some data to this thread.
Lennybernadino i like your idea of acclimating the mycelium to it's new home. This seems like it should help the mushroom mycelium become generally more adatable.
Mycelio Have you noticed any differences in the fruitbodies coming from mycelium grown in fermented versus non-fermented substrates? That mycelium there looks very healthy
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Alkaloids]
#14390191 - 05/02/11 04:57 PM (1 year, 28 days ago) |
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No, I never noticed any difference in the fruitbodies.
Covering with oil should work, but it sounds unnecessarily messy. For me, fermentation in zip-lock bags is the easiest way and I never lower the PH, nor do I add any starter culture, as all the species we need are already present on grain or straw. If you think you should add something, look for sourdough starter. Whenever you try the first time, I heavily recommend fermenting small amounts and not to change too much.
Carsten
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