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Offlinepsilyguy
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Re: Arguments to destroy a religious person in a debate? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14331315 - 04/22/11 01:20 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

psilyguy said:
Anyone here think evolution is total BS? If so are you not familiar with the logic of evolution theory or do you understand the logic and deny it? If you understand it then what is your reason for denying it?





care to explain abiogenesis?





No, i'm not going to pretend to know anything about that beyond what it means. But, abiogenesis has to do with the origin of life, evolution doesn't. Evolution explains how life became what it is today, not how life became in the first place.

Don't ask me about the big bang theory either. I can't wrap my mind around something coming from of nothing. Even God creating the universe provides a cause, a something for things to come out of. But who then created God in the first place? Big bang, natural, god, I dunno. But its my opinion that everything always has and always will exist in one form or another. I have no evidence to back it up, its just an opinion.

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Invisibledonteatasians


Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1,461
Re: Arguments to destroy a religious person in a debate? [Re: psilyguy]
    #14331316 - 04/22/11 01:20 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

psilyguy said:
Here's my favorite argument, I use this famous quote from some guy named Epicurus. For the religious people, ignore the fact that its a quote and just think through the logic.

Quote:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?




You can have Omnipotence and Benevolence, but then God didn't create evil and God would prevent evil. Or you can have evil exist and only one of the God-like traits. If thats the case, what makes the guy worthy of worship? A truly benevolent being is worthy of being a role-model, but is not a God. An omnipotent being that is not benevolent is a super-monster/devil/scary thing.

If you believe in predestiny determined by God. Then that means God is directly responsible for all genocide, sexual assault, torture, misery, sadness, illness, etc. If this is the case I say God is the biggest asshole ever.

I know the Mormons and probably some other religious groups would argue that God is able but not willing to prevent evil for the cause of free will (which also means God created evil to provide the choice, since God created all that is, including Satan). But if that is true then God would never interfere, especially not in the form of destroying Sodom and Gomorrah simply for being full of "evil-doers"(for example, plenty of other examples out there). Because God interfering at all would make true free-will impossible.

If anyone who believes in any of the worship-type gods (christians, muslims, jewish people, etc.) can break this logic and explain to me how a God worth worshiping can even exist, then speak up.



I think the idea is that God allowed free-will so people could make their own decisions instead of forcing obedience.  This was to ensure that people choose to worship willingly and had options.  At least that’s the reason for allowing "evil" from that viewpoint as I understand it.  :shrug:


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OfflineReppin501
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Re: Arguments to destroy a religious person in a debate? [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #14331329 - 04/22/11 01:23 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

First and foremost "Hello, hope all is well with you".  I hope you can pardon my interjection, but wouldn't it make more sense to actually study the issue for yourself, based on what you find formulate your own opinion, then simply share your thoughts?  As opposed to “believing” in something blindly, with no real understanding for why, and just repeating someone elses talking points?  Actually that sounds alot like the perception of the people you're attempting to mock...No?

FYI, Dinosaur references are debatable, there is a passage in particular that could be interpreted to refer to Dinosaurs, Im just too lazy to look it up right now...just sayin.

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Offlinemasterfluffypants
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Re: Arguments to destroy a religious person in a debate? [Re: donteatasians]
    #14331332 - 04/22/11 01:25 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Im surprised no one has brought up the theory that different races came from experiments on humans from extra terrestrials.


--------------------
"You ever have that feeling where you're not sure if you're awake or still dreaming?"

"Mmm...All the time. It's called mescaline, it's the only way to fly."

:peyote: :sanpedro:    :sanpedro: :peyote:

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InvisibleSamuel L Jackson
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Re: Arguments to destroy a religious person in a debate? [Re: masterfluffypants]
    #14331334 - 04/22/11 01:25 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

masterfluffypants said:
Im surprised no one has brought up the theory that different races came from experiments on humans from extra terrestrials.




GET OUT OF HERE WITH THAT :tinfoil:! THIS IS A CONVERSATION FOR MEN OF SCIENCE


--------------------


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OfflineLadyLittleZeppelin
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Re: Arguments to destroy a religious person in a debate? [Re: psilyguy]
    #14331335 - 04/22/11 01:25 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

psilyguy said:
Here's my favorite argument, I use this famous quote from some guy named Epicurus. For the religious people, ignore the fact that its a quote and just think through the logic.

Quote:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?




You can have Omnipotence and Benevolence, but then God didn't create evil and God would prevent evil. Or you can have evil exist and only one of the God-like traits. If thats the case, what makes the guy worthy of worship? A truly benevolent being is worthy of being a role-model, but is not a God. An omnipotent being that is not benevolent is a super-monster/devil/scary thing.

If you believe in predestiny determined by God. Then that means God is directly responsible for all genocide, sexual assault, torture, misery, sadness, illness, etc. If this is the case I say God is the biggest asshole ever.

I know the Mormons and probably some other religious groups would argue that God is able but not willing to prevent evil for the cause of free will (which also means God created evil to provide the choice, since God created all that is, including Satan). But if that is true then God would never interfere, especially not in the form of destroying Sodom and Gomorrah simply for being full of "evil-doers"(for example, plenty of other examples out there). Because God interfering at all would make true free-will impossible.

If anyone who believes in any of the worship-type gods (christians, muslims, jewish people, etc.) can break this logic and explain to me how a God worth worshiping can even exist, then speak up.




There was no evil until satan, the greatest angel of all, thought he was better than God and attempted to overthrow him. All evil comes from satan and not God. Satans time is coming where he'll be judged for his actions and his followers too. Everyone else that was neutral will be destroyed, as if they never existed. Gods people will join God and live on. Easy stuff to follow I think.


--------------------
SHROOMS MAKE YOU GAY
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Crystal G said:
  its cuzzzzzz i giiiiiive a meeeeean blooooowjjjobbbb.

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Offlinemasterfluffypants
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Re: Arguments to destroy a religious person in a debate? [Re: Samuel L Jackson]
    #14331343 - 04/22/11 01:29 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SamuelLJackson said:
Quote:

masterfluffypants said:
Im surprised no one has brought up the theory that different races came from experiments on humans from extra terrestrials.




GET OUT OF HERE WITH THAT :tinfoil:! THIS IS A CONVERSATION FOR MEN OF SCIENCE



:shoosh: I thought that was science


--------------------
"You ever have that feeling where you're not sure if you're awake or still dreaming?"

"Mmm...All the time. It's called mescaline, it's the only way to fly."

:peyote: :sanpedro:    :sanpedro: :peyote:

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Invisibledonteatasians


Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1,461
Re: Arguments to destroy a religious person in a debate? [Re: LadyLittleZeppelin]
    #14331349 - 04/22/11 01:30 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

LadyLittleZeppelin said:
Quote:

psilyguy said:
Here's my favorite argument, I use this famous quote from some guy named Epicurus. For the religious people, ignore the fact that its a quote and just think through the logic.

Quote:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?




You can have Omnipotence and Benevolence, but then God didn't create evil and God would prevent evil. Or you can have evil exist and only one of the God-like traits. If thats the case, what makes the guy worthy of worship? A truly benevolent being is worthy of being a role-model, but is not a God. An omnipotent being that is not benevolent is a super-monster/devil/scary thing.

If you believe in predestiny determined by God. Then that means God is directly responsible for all genocide, sexual assault, torture, misery, sadness, illness, etc. If this is the case I say God is the biggest asshole ever.

I know the Mormons and probably some other religious groups would argue that God is able but not willing to prevent evil for the cause of free will (which also means God created evil to provide the choice, since God created all that is, including Satan). But if that is true then God would never interfere, especially not in the form of destroying Sodom and Gomorrah simply for being full of "evil-doers"(for example, plenty of other examples out there). Because God interfering at all would make true free-will impossible.

If anyone who believes in any of the worship-type gods (christians, muslims, jewish people, etc.) can break this logic and explain to me how a God worth worshiping can even exist, then speak up.




There was no evil until satan, the greatest angel of all, thought he was better than God and attempted to overthrow him. All evil comes from satan and not God. Satans time is coming where he'll be judged for his actions and his followers too. Everyone else that was neutral will be destroyed, as if they never existed. Gods people will join God and live on. Easy stuff to follow I think.



I thought Satan was only responsible for temptation, and that the "evil" was the persons' decision to give in to it.

I am genuinely curious and not trying to mock or attack so please don't take it that way.


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Offlinemasterfluffypants
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Re: Arguments to destroy a religious person in a debate? [Re: LadyLittleZeppelin]
    #14331354 - 04/22/11 01:31 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

LadyLittleZeppelin said:
Quote:

psilyguy said:
Here's my favorite argument, I use this famous quote from some guy named Epicurus. For the religious people, ignore the fact that its a quote and just think through the logic.

Quote:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?




You can have Omnipotence and Benevolence, but then God didn't create evil and God would prevent evil. Or you can have evil exist and only one of the God-like traits. If thats the case, what makes the guy worthy of worship? A truly benevolent being is worthy of being a role-model, but is not a God. An omnipotent being that is not benevolent is a super-monster/devil/scary thing.

If you believe in predestiny determined by God. Then that means God is directly responsible for all genocide, sexual assault, torture, misery, sadness, illness, etc. If this is the case I say God is the biggest asshole ever.

I know the Mormons and probably some other religious groups would argue that God is able but not willing to prevent evil for the cause of free will (which also means God created evil to provide the choice, since God created all that is, including Satan). But if that is true then God would never interfere, especially not in the form of destroying Sodom and Gomorrah simply for being full of "evil-doers"(for example, plenty of other examples out there). Because God interfering at all would make true free-will impossible.

If anyone who believes in any of the worship-type gods (christians, muslims, jewish people, etc.) can break this logic and explain to me how a God worth worshiping can even exist, then speak up.




There was no evil until satan, the greatest angel of all, thought he was better than God and attempted to overthrow him. All evil comes from satan and not God. Satans time is coming where he'll be judged for his actions and his followers too. Everyone else that was neutral will be destroyed, as if they never existed. Gods people will join God and live on. Easy stuff to follow I think.




Yes humans have free-will. They can each choose their path, and when the time of judgement and tribulation comes, each person will be judged according by their faith as well as their actions on the earth


--------------------
"You ever have that feeling where you're not sure if you're awake or still dreaming?"

"Mmm...All the time. It's called mescaline, it's the only way to fly."

:peyote: :sanpedro:    :sanpedro: :peyote:

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Offlinepsilyguy
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Re: Arguments to destroy a religious person in a debate? [Re: donteatasians]
    #14331357 - 04/22/11 01:32 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Larrythescaryrex said:
god gave freewill to.
stopping evil would negate that.
also people say things are evil that arn't
like earthquakes or something.




People say God made the earthquakes too. I already addressed the freewill thing, i'm open to the debate, but how about you explain to me why you disagree with my point? I'll reiterate.

If God gave freewill by allowing evil, then fine. But if he is the God described by various religious texts, then he also created the evil in the first place. Ok so he needed to create it to provide a temptation for people to resist. That is fine. But then he didn't let it run the natural course (supposedly). He interfered by destroying non-believers and commanding the destruction of non-believers. (from any of the convential western religious views this is true). By interfering, the purpose of allowing evil for freewill was defeated. So now freewill is out the window, because god prevented a measure of evil chosen by humans. Without freewill this is making the nature of God questionable. Now there must be malevolence, for allowing a certain amount of evil without the purpose of freewill, or non-omnipotence, because maybe he couldn't prevent all of the evil. Or the acts we define as evil are not designated as such by God, which is basically the same as malevolence.

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Offlinenoticeofeviction
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Re: Arguments to destroy a religious person in a debate? [Re: masterfluffypants]
    #14331358 - 04/22/11 01:32 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

You guys, this is all what God WANTS you to think.

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Offlinemasterfluffypants
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Re: Arguments to destroy a religious person in a debate? [Re: psilyguy]
    #14331378 - 04/22/11 01:38 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

psilyguy said:
Quote:

Larrythescaryrex said:
god gave freewill to.
stopping evil would negate that.
also people say things are evil that arn't
like earthquakes or something.




People say God made the earthquakes too. I already addressed the freewill thing, i'm open to the debate, but how about you explain to me why you disagree with my point? I'll reiterate.

If God gave freewill by allowing evil, then fine. But if he is the God described by various religious texts, then he also created the evil in the first place. Ok so he needed to create it to provide a temptation for people to resist. That is fine. But then he didn't let it run the natural course (supposedly). He interfered by destroying non-believers and commanding the destruction of non-believers. (from any of the convential western religious views this is true). By interfering, the purpose of allowing evil for freewill was defeated. So now freewill is out the window, because god prevented a measure of evil chosen by humans. Without freewill this is making the nature of God questionable. Now there must be malevolence, for allowing a certain amount of evil without the purpose of freewill, or non-omnipotence, because maybe he couldn't prevent all of the evil. Or the acts we define as evil are not designated as such by God, which is basically the same as malevolence.




Well keep in mind that the bible discloses that God has a wrathful side. The evil in the world is of the likes of Satan, and God cannot control the actions of the devil. Nobody knows everything. There are only clues we can take and try to decipher. There are books in the bible that were left out and there are certain unexplained earthly occurrences that are not explained in the bible. The bible is just a small part of the bigger picture.


--------------------
"You ever have that feeling where you're not sure if you're awake or still dreaming?"

"Mmm...All the time. It's called mescaline, it's the only way to fly."

:peyote: :sanpedro:    :sanpedro: :peyote:

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Offlinepsilyguy
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Re: Arguments to destroy a religious person in a debate? [Re: LadyLittleZeppelin]
    #14331379 - 04/22/11 01:38 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

LadyLittleZeppelin said:
There was no evil until satan, the greatest angel of all, thought he was better than God and attempted to overthrow him. All evil comes from satan and not God. Satans time is coming where he'll be judged for his actions and his followers too. Everyone else that was neutral will be destroyed, as if they never existed. Gods people will join God and live on. Easy stuff to follow I think.




Did not God create Satan? If God created Satan then he created the creator of evil by your definition, which makes God the inderect creator of evil.

If God didn't create Satan then that just makes him like the Warlord of the Righteous Army, but not the Omnipotent Creator of Everything. In that case, worshiping him is basically enlisting for his military. And it seems like Satan is going to have a bigger army, so.......

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Offlinemasterfluffypants
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Re: Arguments to destroy a religious person in a debate? [Re: psilyguy]
    #14331387 - 04/22/11 01:41 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

psilyguy said:
Quote:

LadyLittleZeppelin said:
There was no evil until satan, the greatest angel of all, thought he was better than God and attempted to overthrow him. All evil comes from satan and not God. Satans time is coming where he'll be judged for his actions and his followers too. Everyone else that was neutral will be destroyed, as if they never existed. Gods people will join God and live on. Easy stuff to follow I think.




Did not God create Satan? If God created Satan then he created the creator of evil by your definition, which makes God the inderect creator of evil.

If God didn't create Satan then that just makes him like the Warlord of the Righteous Army, but not the Omnipotent Creator of Everything. In that case, worshiping him is basically enlisting for his military. And it seems like Satan is going to have a bigger army, so.......




God did not intentionally create Satan to be the destroyer and the devil. Lucifer was the musician of heaven but was cast out after he became jealous of Gods power and wanted to take his place. You also have to keep in mind that God is not the ONLY God.


--------------------
"You ever have that feeling where you're not sure if you're awake or still dreaming?"

"Mmm...All the time. It's called mescaline, it's the only way to fly."

:peyote: :sanpedro:    :sanpedro: :peyote:

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Offlinepsilyguy
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Re: Arguments to destroy a religious person in a debate? [Re: masterfluffypants]
    #14331400 - 04/22/11 01:46 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

masterfluffypants said:
Well keep in mind that the bible discloses that God has a wrathful side. The evil in the world is of the likes of Satan, and God cannot control the actions of the devil. Nobody knows everything. There are only clues we can take and try to decipher. There are books in the bible that were left out and there are certain unexplained earthly occurrences that are not explained in the bible. The bible is just a small part of the bigger picture.




Bring up the wrathful side of God is completely fair and valid argument. But to that I say, I have no interest in spending my time worshiping a being that gets wrathful with beings that are less than ants to him.

The part about Satan kills it for me though. If evil is from Satan, than is God's wrath not evil? Cause on the recieving end i'm sure it looks pretty damn evil. Especially when the wrath comes in the same form as an evil action of the temptation of satan (murder)(Also, God has committed murder, Satan has only convinced people to murder).

Also, if God cannot  control the actions of the Devil, then he is not truly Omnipotent and thus not worthy of the title "God" imo. If he won't control the actions of the devil, then see my freewill argument again.

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OfflineReppin501
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Re: Arguments to destroy a religious person in a debate? [Re: psilyguy]
    #14331407 - 04/22/11 01:49 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

God didnt necessarily "create" evil in the context you're referring to.  Satan/Lucifer/Devil rebelled out of jealously against God, he was cast out and punished, which intensified his hatred for God.  Because he cant act against God directly, he instead lashes out at God's most adored creation, man.  When Eve was convinced to act against God's wishes the battle for mortal souls was on.

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Offlinepsilyguy
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Re: Arguments to destroy a religious person in a debate? [Re: masterfluffypants]
    #14331415 - 04/22/11 01:52 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

masterfluffypants said:
God did not intentionally create Satan to be the destroyer and the devil. Lucifer was the musician of heaven but was cast out after he became jealous of Gods power and wanted to take his place. You also have to keep in mind that God is not the ONLY God.




This means that Lucifer had freewill granted by God, because God allowed the evil. If God is the creator, then that means he created the rules, including the existence of the choice of evil. If God didn't create the rules, than one of your other Gods did, which could be Nature I suppose. Is God a product of nature?

Anyway, that was a little off topic, sorta. Since you speak of satan i'm sure you are talking Christianity. In which case these other Gods are who? Most Christians I know of are not polytheistic. If you believe in more than one God than surely the definition of God cannot mean to you Omnipotent, Benevolent, Creator? If there are many gods and they are not all three of the above, then why worship just one of them, or any of them for that matter?

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Arguments to destroy a religious person in a debate? [Re: Samuel L Jackson]
    #14331421 - 04/22/11 01:54 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SamuelLJackson said:
im not saying that created life from scratch. but they did create a unique organism.

it was much more than an altered virus. viruses arent even living organisms.




with modern science, some see a virus as a living organism others do not,
alteration is not creation regardless of how unique it is.

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Offlinepsilyguy
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Re: Arguments to destroy a religious person in a debate? [Re: Reppin501]
    #14331423 - 04/22/11 01:55 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Reppin501 said:
God didnt necessarily "create" evil in the context you're referring to.  Satan/Lucifer/Devil rebelled out of jealously against God, he was cast out and punished, which intensified his hatred for God.  Because he cant act against God directly, he instead lashes out at God's most adored creation, man.  When Eve was convinced to act against God's wishes the battle for mortal souls was on.




So God is not the supreme creator? Which allows more room for science and less reason to worship the guy.

Or God is the supreme creator and made it possible for evil to exist, and gave freewill, the combination of which would inevitably result in evil. Thus God created evil.

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Offlinemasterfluffypants
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Re: Arguments to destroy a religious person in a debate? [Re: psilyguy]
    #14331426 - 04/22/11 01:56 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Understandable. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But you also have to think of it like if you had an infestation of ants in your house. You will kill the ants because they are invading your house. But would you consider that "evil"? Its similar to God erasing certain people out of mankind because when they act in a way that causes extreme measures to be taken, they need to be eradicated for the greater good of man. Just like you would eradicate the ants for the greater good of your house. You can allow these ants to have "free-will" in your house, but then the problem will just spread. Think of it in that context.


--------------------
"You ever have that feeling where you're not sure if you're awake or still dreaming?"

"Mmm...All the time. It's called mescaline, it's the only way to fly."

:peyote: :sanpedro:    :sanpedro: :peyote:

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