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Invisiblequinn
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Truth and truth.
    #14282331 - 04/13/11 05:34 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Language is not reality.




When I ask “is the cat is on the mat?”

Something very strange happens.

You hear the sentence, and then you look somewhere at something. You look beyond the words and into reality.

Then you reply “yes, it is :true or false or undetermined:”

But did you look at a ‘cat’?


Reality is what it is. There are no divisions, categories or definitions in reality. It is there right in front of you. There is nothing there that you do not know is there.

But do you know if you saw a ‘cat’? CAN you see a cat?

Maybe you just have a theory about what cats are. Then you place that theory over reality and get your result.
:true or false or undetermined:

It can only be :true or false or undetermined: because there is only one reality in front of you.

But did your theory ‘capture’ reality. Did you see a cat?

There could be two theories about what a ‘cat’ is.
There could be two theories about what ‘on’ is.  If one theory said the universe was upside down, and the other the right way up, then you would have two different answers to the same question. Both would be equally valid.

Reality is true. Reality is what the theories are measured by. you know EXACTLY what reality is, in the same way that a dog or a baby knows exactly what reality is.

But Language can make true or false statements only relatively. Language cannot capture the Truth.

So to believe you saw ‘a cat’ is wrong. Rather you saw reality. Then made a judgment using a theory which could never capture the Truth you saw.

You cannot know anything more about Reality than what is right in front of you.
You can find theories, that fit it more or less accurately. but the truth of any theory always requires certain assumptions and is only ever a lower case 't', as another theory could highlight other categories that are also 'true'.




Discuss...


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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: Truth and truth. [Re: quinn]
    #14282364 - 04/13/11 05:59 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Language helps us to navigate our models of the world.  Beyond that, andf;asdcadfjasdnfwa;lefnwef.  :yesnod:

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Truth and truth. [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #14283222 - 04/13/11 10:57 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

There is a problem here. We see a perception of 'reality', rather than 'reality itself' (if you consider reality to be what is objectively true).

Simple illusions can show this



But here you could say 'you think the colour is different only until you inspect the picture more closely! if you inspect reality more closely then you would see that the colour is the same!'

So let us imagine instead the example where you don't have the option of inspecting the world more closely. What is reality then?

What if you entered a room where everything was red, and one thing suddenly pops in front of you that is white? It might look green or blue to you. You might only be able to tell that it is white by putting it in an environment with appropriate other stimuli, or by looking at it for long enough. But poof! it dissapears.

What colour was it really? You percieved it as blue or green - was it really?


btw this is a very different topic to the other one about consciousness in the recent thread- im not making any sort of assumption about the reality or unreality of conscious states or colour experiences.


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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: Truth and truth. [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14283293 - 04/13/11 11:11 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Right.  We never experience the thing-in-itself, so to speak;
that is, unless you consider experience itself to be part of that objective world.

It is obvious that what we call consciousness is caused by, or emanates from, or is at the very least somehow tethered to what we would call physical reality.  Our experiences do point to something real, just as the shape of a blanket reflects the person sleeping underneath.
It seems an impossibility to pull the blanket back and see reality's true face.  I doubt death will reveal anything.

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Truth and truth. [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #14283492 - 04/13/11 11:51 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I agree


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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: Truth and truth. [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14284012 - 04/13/11 01:34 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The funny thing is that when I say, "I doubt death will reveal anything", that is only my purely rational side talking.

There is another part of me that believes death will be the great reveal, sudden freedom.  Across the room at the other side of my skull, I'm saying, "don't be stupid".  But it feels good to hope there's more to the story...

:jimcarreysplit:

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Truth and truth. [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #14284038 - 04/13/11 01:38 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Well that was in fact the one thing I didnt agree fully on, I dont really have an opinion on the matter. I don't think it is totally unlikely, but rather, not rational to gamble on.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Truth and truth. [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14286267 - 04/13/11 07:58 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

"We see a perception of 'reality'"

What is our perception of reality a part of?

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Offlinesynapz
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Re: Truth and truth. [Re: quinn]
    #14294559 - 04/15/11 08:43 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Language is not reality.



word

Quote:

When I ask “is the cat is on the mat?”

Something very strange happens.

You hear the sentence, and then you look somewhere at something. You look beyond the words and into reality.




Well it depends.

The thought apple is a thought. You cannot taste the thought apple, touch the thought apple, smell the thought apple. It is a thought. An idea. An image of a red round figure perhaps comes to mind.

The thought is not the thing. It's a thought.

It *represents* some aspect of reality.

When you "look into reality" and "see" the cat, what part of it is reality in fact?

What part of that experience is independent from your interpretation and stands alone? What is the reality of the cat? It's not our ideas "this is cat" (that is an idea) but what is it referring to? The thought, if you look at it closely, is actually a description. You are making an observation. Pointing something out. "This is a cat" you say. But what? WHAT is a cat? We don't have any answer in language for that do we. Thought can only be *about* something. But, strangely, that "something" is actually THOUGHT itself. It's a self-enclosed loop essentially. We're not describing reality at all in fact, we are merely lost in our own interpretation!

Quote:

But did you look at a ‘cat’?


Reality is what it is. There are no divisions, categories or definitions in reality. It is there right in front of you. There is nothing there that you do not know is there.





"reality is what it is" ? (what is it in the first place to be whatever it is?)

Quote:

But do you know if you saw a ‘cat’? CAN you see a cat?



In reality, there is no such thing as "cat" and "not-cat" these are ideas only

but in practical everyday life, obviously cats exist lol and I can see them yes.

Quote:

Maybe you just have a theory about what cats are. Then you place that theory over reality and get your result.




We don't have a theory. We know what cats are. We experience it on that level.

A "thing" is whatever label you give to it. I can either see my coffee cup right now as just that, a cup I drink from, or, I could view and see it only as a paperweight keeping my papers from blowing everywhere. It's all in our perception. It is a completely subjective thing. Everything, all apparent objects and situations and events and people, are ALL experienced radically different in ALL aspects, by each person. There are many subjective worlds, for as many bodies there are. It's all just nerve impulses firing in the brain. The entire experience we think we experience is but an illusion. We think we see stars that are billions of light years away... and yet, in reality, it's just a particular nerve impulse.


Quote:

:true or false or undetermined:

It can only be :true or false or undetermined: because there is only one reality in front of you.

But did your theory ‘capture’ reality. Did you see a cat?

There could be two theories about what a ‘cat’ is.




OK...

Quote:

There could be two theories about what ‘on’ is.  If one theory said the universe was upside down, and the other the right way up, then you would have two different answers to the same question. Both would be equally valid.




I suppose

Quote:

Reality is true. Reality is what the theories are measured by. you know EXACTLY what reality is, in the same way that a dog or a baby knows exactly what reality is.




meh

Quote:

But Language can make true or false statements only relatively. Language cannot capture the Truth.



Language cannot capture truth? Didn't you just capture that boy boy, mate?

Quote:

So to believe you saw ‘a cat’ is wrong. Rather you saw reality. Then made a judgment using a theory which could never capture the Truth you saw.




sorta murky sounding I am not sure I follow

Quote:

You cannot know anything more about Reality than what is right in front of you



*Looks at the monitor in front of him, puzzled by this statement.*

Quote:

You can find theories, that fit it more or less accurately. but the truth of any theory always requires certain assumptions and is only ever a lower case 't', as another theory could highlight other categories that are also 'true'.



wtf? *doesn't follow at all*


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Truth and truth. [Re: synapz]
    #14294655 - 04/15/11 09:09 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The thought apple is a thought. You cannot taste the thought apple, touch the thought apple, smell the thought apple. It is a thought. An idea. An image of a red round figure perhaps comes to mind.

The thought is not the thing. It's a thought.




thought is reality. 'the thought of an apple' is not reality. that is the distinction i am trying to make. between categorization (or language) and the undivided stuff which is happening in front of you.

Quote:

When you "look into reality" and "see" the cat, what part of it is reality in fact?

What part of that experience is independent from your interpretation and stands alone? What is the reality of the cat? It's not our ideas "this is cat" (that is an idea) but what is it referring to? The thought, if you look at it closely, is actually a description. You are making an observation. Pointing something out. "This is a cat" you say. But what? WHAT is a cat? We don't have any answer in language for that do we.




i think i agree...

Quote:

Thought can only be *about* something. But, strangely, that "something" is actually THOUGHT itself. It's a self-enclosed loop essentially. We're not describing reality at all in fact, we are merely lost in our own interpretation!




this seems confusing. what do you have in mind for a 'thought' :confused:
Quote:



In reality, there is no such thing as "cat" and "not-cat" these are ideas only

but in practical everyday life, obviously cats exist lol and I can see them yes.





no you missed my point. the point is what is you see is not 'a cat'. a cat is only what you understand thru linguistic interpretation.

the idea here is that reality is seperate from linguistic understanding, but is still understood in the same way that a dog or child understands reality... i am not sure about this claim tho, which is what i wanted to discuss. does the True reality happen in front of you outside of any linguistic understanding. is it something you have access to and is it what you measure your 'understanding' against?

or does how you understand the world seep into that reality? does it obscure it necessarily or can we cast off whatever theory we were working under and just see what is there unattached and without bias?

:shrug:


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Offlinesynapz
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Re: Truth and truth. [Re: quinn]
    #14294728 - 04/15/11 09:31 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

thought is reality. 'the thought of an apple' is not reality. that is the distinction i am trying to make. between categorization (or language) and the undivided stuff which is happening in front of you.



You just said thought is reality. Then you say thought is not reality in the very next sentence. Make up your mind.


Quote:

Thought can only be *about* something. But, strangely, that "something" is actually THOUGHT itself. It's a self-enclosed loop essentially. We're not describing reality at all in fact, we are merely lost in our own interpretation!



this seems confusing. what do you have in mind for a 'thought'




The tree is big. The tree is fall. The tree is mighty. The tree is gray. The tree has green leafs. The tree is part of nature.

Quote:

In reality, there is no such thing as "cat" and "not-cat" these are ideas only

but in practical everyday life, obviously cats exist lol and I can see them yes.


no you missed my point. the point is what is you see is not 'a cat'. a cat is only what you understand thru linguistic interpretation.



what do we see?

Quote:

the idea here is that reality is seperate from linguistic understanding, but is still understood in the same way that a dog or child understands reality... i am not sure about this claim tho, which is what i wanted to discuss. does the True reality happen in front of you outside of any linguistic understanding. is it something you have access to and is it what you measure your 'understanding' against?




Ok I think I see where you want to go with this, mate

Reality is whatever IS. It's the ISNESS. The inevitableness of all experience. How each tiny little part of our experience is connected to each other event into infinity. So, what IS, cannot be otherwise. It is Law. It doesn't matter weather we know what the 'rules' are, we play by its rules and cannot opt out.

What we think is law, reality, truth, and the ACTUALITY of law, truth, reality, may not sync up and match. We may see it all backwards. Or we may be missing a huge piece of the puzzle. We just tell stories about apparent "objects in the world" as if our interpretation and subsequent description of this interpretation, is ACTUALLY describing reality, touching reality somehow. But reality is just another idea that is inherent within the interpretation, and as such is not representing REALITY AS IT IS... but the *idea* of reality as it is.

Big difference.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Truth and truth. [Re: synapz]
    #14294770 - 04/15/11 09:44 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

"Reality is whatever IS. It's the ISNESS."

What is "isness"?

"The inevitableness of all experience."

Inevitableness?

"How each tiny little part of our experience is connected to each other event into infinity."

Parts? Connections? What is separate?

"So, what IS, cannot be otherwise. It is Law. It doesn't matter weather we know what the 'rules' are, we play by its rules and cannot opt out."

Law? Rule(S)? Are you suggesting a metaphysics here? I can see what happens. I do not see laws.

"What we think is law, reality, truth, and the ACTUALITY of law, truth, reality, may not sync up and match."

What is truth?

"We may see it all backwards. Or we may be missing a huge piece of the puzzle."

I've never had my sight go backwards on me, do you mean flipped horizontally or something? Where's this puzzle at?

"We just tell stories about apparent "objects in the world" as if our interpretation and subsequent description of this interpretation, is ACTUALLY describing reality, touching reality somehow. But reality is just another idea that is inherent within the interpretation, and as such is not representing REALITY AS IT IS... but the *idea* of reality as it is."

But what part of this whole processes isn't in reality? Isn't it all real?

"Big difference."

What exists in your brain exists in your brain, what exists on your table, exists on your table.

Edited by xFrockx (04/15/11 09:46 AM)

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Truth and truth. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14294943 - 04/15/11 10:38 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:


what do we see?



the reality which one can only allude to... the reality which 'cat' is filled with...
like the same kind of reality in front of the male chauvinist but which he obscures through his chauvinistic spectacles... (but which is none the less there) :shrug:

Quote:


Ok I think I see where you want to go with this, mate

Reality is whatever IS. It's the ISNESS. The inevitableness of all experience. How each tiny little part of our experience is connected to each other event into infinity. So, what IS, cannot be otherwise. It is Law. It doesn't matter weather we know what the 'rules' are, we play by its rules and cannot opt out.

What we think is law, reality, truth, and the ACTUALITY of law, truth, reality, may not sync up and match. We may see it all backwards. Or we may be missing a huge piece of the puzzle. We just tell stories about apparent "objects in the world" as if our interpretation and subsequent description of this interpretation, is ACTUALLY describing reality, touching reality somehow. But reality is just another idea that is inherent within the interpretation, and as such is not representing REALITY AS IT IS... but the *idea* of reality as it is.

Big difference.




:yesnod:
i think that is more or less what i am getting at.

the one question is can we dispel all that 'puzzling', 'thinking' and 'storytelling'? can we set it all aside and just be one with the actual infinity, the actual law, the actual reality before us and expressed through us... one with the great ocean type thing. like an animal is or a plank of wood is. no theoretical lenses instructing us or obscuring 'how we are to act'...

ya know?


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Truth and truth. [Re: quinn]
    #14295262 - 04/15/11 11:58 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

"can we set it all aside and just be one with the actual infinity, the actual law, the actual reality before us and expressed through us... one with the great ocean type thing. like an animal is or a plank of wood is. no theoretical lenses instructing us or obscuring 'how we are to act'..."

Can we? How about "Can I?"

Edited by xFrockx (04/15/11 11:59 AM)

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Offlinesynapz
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Re: Truth and truth. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14295442 - 04/15/11 12:40 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

"Reality is whatever IS. It's the ISNESS."

What is "isness"?




Your experience, your direct experience. Notice how everything effortlessly is, without the slightest need for you to do something to make it all be so. Nor can you step out of this effortlessly presented reality you experience directly. every single detail of it all simply is, by itself, unasked, uninvited.

Quote:

"The inevitableness of all experience."

Inevitableness?




meh


Quote:

"How each tiny little part of our experience is connected to each other event into infinity."

Parts? Connections? What is separate?



zoom.
that was the point I was making - that nothing is separate. It's all interconnected (seemingly) because it's all "one substance"

Quote:

"So, what IS, cannot be otherwise. It is Law. It doesn't matter weather we know what the 'rules' are, we play by its rules and cannot opt out."

Law? Rule(S)? Are you suggesting a metaphysics here? I can see what happens. I do not see laws.




I mean law as in.. the bird chirping in the background could not be otherwise.

Quote:

"What we think is law, reality, truth, and the ACTUALITY of law, truth, reality, may not sync up and match."

What is truth?




I dunno
something without beginning and without end I am pretty sure, other than that I am vague

Quote:

"We may see it all backwards. Or we may be missing a huge piece of the puzzle."

I've never had my sight go backwards on me, do you mean flipped horizontally or something? Where's this puzzle at?




Goes back to the story of touching an elephant in a dark room. We just may not have a clear picture, we just think we do.

Quote:

"We just tell stories about apparent "objects in the world" as if our interpretation and subsequent description of this interpretation, is ACTUALLY describing reality, touching reality somehow. But reality is just another idea that is inherent within the interpretation, and as such is not representing REALITY AS IT IS... but the *idea* of reality as it is."

But what part of this whole processes isn't in reality? Isn't it all real?




well that depends. illusion is real in the sense, it IS, it is experienced, fell for, apparently lived though or whatever. So on that level yeah it does exist you know.  But because it is "illusion" it is also an aspect of experience that can be transcended, and seen to have no actual substance, no actual reality beyond our mere imagination.

a person enters a dark room and is scared shitless by a pile of rope in the corner, EXPERIENCING it as a snake, seeing it as a snake, and thus reacting like it has seen a snake. For this person, there IS a fucking snake. Later he finds out, after someone turns the light on, that it was a rope and sees the suffering he experienced, that, while real at the time and very frightening, yes, was never actually a REAL problem. There was never an ACTUAL threat.

So is it real? Depends. While in it, hell to the yeaaaaaaa. And once transcended, I dunno. I'm not enlightened. I don't know. I still suffer so I haven't transcended anything lol.

Quote:

"Big difference."

What exists in your brain exists in your brain, what exists on your table, exists on your table.




the table only exists in your brain mate that's the whole point - there's no "reality" out there to be found, there is just a series of neurons firing. That's what forms your *seeming* reality of experiencing the table as something outside of you, a separate object. The entire experience of this is nothing more than a manufactured reality that brain "shows" itself (us, awareness.)

So it's just a psychic experience, only though the senses. It's like a lucid dream. Same exact thing right? You are aware and there are objects in the lucid dream yes? And you experience it all basically the exact same way, it's the same exact experience. Not virtually the same, identical. You are "you" as some observer, typically in the lucid dreams you will be the exact same body actually lol, and so yeah. It's the same level of reality. It is reproduced when we wake up in the dream at night and reveals life to be but a dream.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Truth and truth. [Re: synapz]
    #14295497 - 04/15/11 12:53 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

"So it's just a psychic experience, only though the senses. It's like a lucid dream. Same exact thing right? You are aware and there are objects in the lucid dream yes? And you experience it all basically the exact same way, it's the same exact experience. Not virtually the same, identical. You are "you" as some observer, typically in the lucid dreams you will be the exact same body actually lol, and so yeah. It's the same level of reality. It is reproduced when we wake up in the dream at night and reveals life to be but a dream."

No because the brain is not the origin of what the senses observe. There is no you.

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Offlinesynapz
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Re: Truth and truth. [Re: xFrockx]
    #14295717 - 04/15/11 01:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"So it's just a psychic experience, only though the senses. It's like a lucid dream. Same exact thing right? You are aware and there are objects in the lucid dream yes? And you experience it all basically the exact same way, it's the same exact experience. Not virtually the same, identical. You are "you" as some observer, typically in the lucid dreams you will be the exact same body actually lol, and so yeah. It's the same level of reality. It is reproduced when we wake up in the dream at night and reveals life to be but a dream."

No because the brain is not the origin of what the senses observe. There is no you.




It's only an idea there is a brain mate, the brain literally imagines itself to itself lol but is its imagination of itself the actuality of 'it' or does 'brain' not exist at all outside our imagination of it?


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Truth and truth. [Re: synapz]
    #14295759 - 04/15/11 01:55 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Language is not reality, but good luck trying to prove that using language.


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Offlinesynapz
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Re: Truth and truth. [Re: NetDiver]
    #14295863 - 04/15/11 02:17 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Language is not reality, but good luck trying to prove that using language.




direct experience of language within the structure of an overall experience is reality, not the idea of language


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Re: Truth and truth. [Re: synapz]
    #14295875 - 04/15/11 02:19 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Where does the imagination come from?

"the brain literally imagines itself to itself"

If you put two mirrors facing each other with nothing in between, what do they show?


Edited by xFrockx (04/15/11 02:21 PM)

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