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 Forager
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 Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips
#14012628 - 02/23/11 08:51 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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As many of you will know, Psilocybe azurescens, a member of the P. cyanescens complex, is the most potent of the tryptamine bearing fungi. Because of this it is quite the enticing mushrooms and has been the subject of many threads here. After looking through many of these threads, however, I have become aware of a repeating occurrence with these mushrooms; that some people, when consuming these mushrooms, experience temporary paralysis and other bizarre motor function issues.
Many people swear that this has happened to them, and that they lay paralyzed throughout their entire trip. Paul Stamets (I have been told) has even given lectures addressing this topic. So? Where is this temporary paralysis coming from? I really have very little idea of what causes it. It could be the unusually high levels of Baeocystin found in P. azurescens. It could also be related to botulism bacteria, or even some foreign chemical that the mushroom has somehow absorbed and amplified. Anybody with any knowledge or theories please weigh in.
A link to a topic explaining several instances of this and Paul Stamet's view on the matter:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/9830137#9830137
Another post of a user reporting convusions:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/11388213
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 Pinback
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: Forager]
#14012676 - 02/23/11 09:02 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Forager
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: Pinback]
#14012996 - 02/23/11 10:20 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pinback said:
Also check this thread:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13222715
There seem to be two agreements coming out of this thread: (1) Boiling azurescens or cyanescens into a tea negates the paralytic effects, and (2) woodloving species are the only mushrooms producing these effects.
Based upon this it seems to me that the most likely culprit is not abnormally high levels of alkaloids, but rather some foreign chemical. Many woodloving species are rarely found in a natural environment and more likely cultivated. The use of non-natural substrates (or at least substrates that have been processed) could result in the magnification of any undesirable chemicals present.
This line of logic, however, would suggest that similar paralysis should occur with non-psilocybin fungi artificially cultivated on wood. Does anyone know of any cases of this?
-Another interesting theory from Torsten on http://www.shaman-australis.com/ -> "the same process that keeps you from acting out your dreams while you are asleep appears to also be active at certain stages of a mushroom trip. wobbly knees and the inability to clench a fist are early symptoms of this process. quite possibly connected to serotonergic activity."
-Another interesting and insightful note by Torsten-> "[mushroom trip induced paralysis] used to happen to me to, untill I found it to be low blood sugar levels. easily fixed with some honey...I should elaborate.... it's not just the blood sugar, but the feeling of cold. Whether this cold is due to living in tasmania, or whether it is due to not having enough enegy reserves doesn't seem to matter. However, even in the coldest climate you may prevent cramps by making sure sugar levels are high. Also, they don't appear out of nowhere.... if you pay attention you can actually feel your muscles going 'hard' quite a while before the cramping starts."
Edited by Forager (02/23/11 10:29 AM)
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: Forager]
#14027728 - 02/25/11 08:28 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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I've had paralytic (or profound weakness) effects one time, and that was from tea made from a wild strain of Ps. cyanescens. It came on suddenly while I was outside washing a car, and I couldn't continue. It wore off in less than an hour and there were no continuing aftereffects. I've never had it happen with cultivated Ps. cyans of similar or greater potency. No explanation, but I abandoned the cultivation I'd started of that particular wild strain.
 PS
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Viper
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: PrimalSoup]
#14028737 - 02/26/11 12:55 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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The fine physiology of human brain is still very poorly understood, but the general idea from that guy Torsten seems to be relatively reasonable. The serotonergic part of our CNS is active during sleep and it is responsible for stuff like REM atonia and/or sleep paralysis. I would make an educated guess and say that some of the alkaloids and/or other compounds, in ratios present in the mentioned fungi trigger these effects.
People tend to forget that it is not just about the substance present, it is the total effect of the mixture. Just as with ayahuasca - alone, some substances have only minor effects, but when mixed together they exhibit qualitatively and quantitatively different effects that are often not just a simple sum of their effects.
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Forager
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: Viper]
#14031254 - 02/26/11 03:26 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Viper said:
The fine physiology of human brain is still very poorly understood, but the general idea from that guy Torsten seems to be relatively reasonable. The serotonergic part of our CNS is active during sleep and it is responsible for stuff like REM atonia and/or sleep paralysis. I would make an educated guess and say that some of the alkaloids and/or other compounds, in ratios present in the mentioned fungi trigger these effects.
Good thought Viper! It could very well be some sort of synergistic effect! After reading up on this issue it seems we will likely never know what causes it until more research is done. I am having a difficult time finding any sort of similarity between the many cases.
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Viper
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: Forager]
#14033995 - 02/26/11 11:42 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
I am having a difficult time finding any sort of similarity between the many cases.
Which reminds me - You must also take into account the differences between individual physiologies of everyone of us. Different people may react differently to same substances (although I would not attribute great importance to this effect in the cases that are being discussed here since the physiology of muscular system is more or less the same in all of us). I can't really know until I try cyans, though. 
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sporeRider
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: Viper]
#14035861 - 02/27/11 12:02 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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ive seen most posts where members state they get that reaction - they also eat HUGE unrecommended doses of the woodlovers - and also many are HEAVY drinkers of alcohol - i myself and MANY friends - have never had any bad toxic reactions to the woodlover azies - except the MAJIC reactions most kinda want and expect !!!! they do FUCK YA UP  but in a GREAT GREAT way
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Forager
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: sporeRider]
#14036476 - 02/27/11 02:02 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah some of the doses people take of these things when they get their paralytic effects are insane. I haven't heard much about alcoholism in this issue, but that is definitely worth investigation.
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If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to [humankind] as it is, infinite. - William Blake
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: Forager]
#14037722 - 02/27/11 05:59 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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I had a one time experience - out of many trips with Ps. cyan - and it was with a test (deliberately low) dosage. So IF the paralytic agent, whatever it is, shows up only occasionally, or perhaps often in some species, a large dose might well result in the kind of occasional reports I've seen, with lasting symptoms. Test dosages are always a good idea with unfamiliar strains/species.
PS
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NeuroFunk
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: PrimalSoup]
#14092766 - 03/09/11 01:06 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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I personally witnessed a person being paralyzed on P. semilanceata for about an hour or so. As she later reported, she was fully aware of the room and people aroud her, but she could not speak or make a move. We had the same stuff, but didn't experience those effects, so i tend to believe that it is person's individual reaction to mushrooms in general rather than foreign chemicals in them.
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Latrodectus
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: PrimalSoup]
#15438072 - 11/28/11 09:44 PM (5 months, 28 days ago) |
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Hi, i just actually made a post on the Lycaeum forum about this topic specifically and a friend of mine called me and asked me if i knew anything about this. they had experienced this after drinking tea made from P. azurescens. So it can definitely happen from boiled mushrooms but it happened to me years ago when id eaten about 3.5 grams dried azurescens. I experienced paralysis of the mouth. specifically my lips which lasted for about an hour. This is a really interesting thread guys thanks.
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: Latrodectus]
#15440175 - 11/29/11 12:18 PM (5 months, 27 days ago) |
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Oh yeah, it's something that goes into solution - that's what happened to me as I always make tea from actives.
A common effect I've had with Ps. cyans including a mutant strain I grew in domestication for years was numbness in the face, particularly the lips, with just that sort of duration. Hadn't thought about that in ages 'till you mentioned it. 
PS
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Forager
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: NeuroFunk]
#15482852 - 12/07/11 08:55 PM (5 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
NeuroFunk said:
We had the same stuff, but didn't experience those effects, so i tend to believe that it is person's individual reaction to mushrooms in general rather than foreign chemicals in them.
Probably true, everyone seems to react differently to mushrooms. Regardless, it seems there is a higher incidence of paralysis on some mushrooms than other... I am inclined to think Baeocystin may be behind it, as P. azurescens, P. semiliantecea, and P. cyanescens all have relatively high Baeocystin content.
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: Forager]
#15482916 - 12/07/11 09:06 PM (5 months, 19 days ago) |
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Personally I disagree, as I've done cyans and semis in great qty but only ever experienced full-on paralytic effects from ONE wild batch of cyans. A mutation leading to some strange alkaloid that I never want to ingest again, that's my guess. FWIW, YMMV, and the driver does not make change, ya know.
PS
PS If the doors of perception were cleansed, we'd be able to see out the goddamn windows of the bus. - PS
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Forager
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: PrimalSoup]
#15483386 - 12/07/11 10:31 PM (5 months, 19 days ago) |
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Why oh why can we all not have our own spectrophotometer and other chemistry lab equipment for analyzing content in these cases... perhaps we shall never know. Either way, a paralytic trip is undoubtedly as educational as a non-paralytic one, perhaps moreso... the mushrooms are the teachers. I don't doubt their methods.
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: Forager]
#15485518 - 12/08/11 11:13 AM (5 months, 18 days ago) |
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Oh I definitely doubt THESE methods. I am not into paralysis at all. They were an excursion into the dark side.
PS
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: Forager]
#15489941 - 12/09/11 07:18 AM (5 months, 18 days ago) |
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I wonder if mixing this with datura would stop any of the paralytic effects spoken of in this thread
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Forager
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: DewdlerDandy]
#15489954 - 12/09/11 07:23 AM (5 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
DewdlerDandy said:
I wonder if mixing this with datura would stop any of the paralytic effects spoken of in this thread
Mmmm... I would be interested to hear your rational behind this. You never know, but I wouldn't expect to see that result.
Regardless, welcome to theShroomery. Have you taken Datura sp. many times before?
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KajSam
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips *DELETED* [Re: Forager]
#15491976 - 12/09/11 04:10 PM (5 months, 17 days ago) |
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Post deleted by KajSamReason for deletion: na
Edited by KajSam (12/09/11 05:20 PM)
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knarkkorven
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: KajSam]
#15498608 - 12/11/11 03:27 AM (5 months, 16 days ago) |
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I have noticed the same thing with liberty caps.
I think the cold/paralysis effects has to do with psilocin affecting the peripheral nerve system. Perhaps causing vasoconstriction... We normally only talk about how psilocin act in the brain (CNS) but serotonin receptors are common in many parts of our bodies.
One thing I have noticed is that if I smoke just a little bit of cannabis during the trip, the paralysis and coldness goes away. It's like I can hear "cracking" noises in my limbs when they return to their ordinary, free moving state and the temperature rises, and I can remove the blankets I needed a couple of minutes ago to feel warm.
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: knarkkorven]
#15500333 - 12/11/11 02:05 PM (5 months, 15 days ago) |
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I think that's normal, the cold effects I mean. It's the paralysis, i.e., almost complete lack of voluntary muscle control and/or an extreme temporary weakness (hard to tell which at this remove) that was unusual.
PS
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horus_92
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: Forager]
#15802024 - 02/13/12 07:35 AM (3 months, 14 days ago) |
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Strychnine is a naturally occurring indole alkaloid. This does sound something like strychnine poisoning really. Is it impossible that woodloving species produce strychnine, or perhaps a chemical like it? I've found scattered reports of similar things from cubensis, but it's hard to say if it's just not a side effect of a serotonergic drug.
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Nobitte
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: horus_92]
#15804773 - 02/13/12 06:05 PM (3 months, 13 days ago) |
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Old thread, but i will add something to it.
I dont get muscle paralysis as severe as wobbly legs or not being able to use my hands, i once had a habit of eating P. Subaeruginosa i picked from the wild, i would often get paralysis in my fingers, toes and face.
So much to the point that on one trip i was left with two lazy eyes for 48 hours, to the point that no matter how hard i strained i couldn't open them, resulting in an inability to see properly.
As for my toes and fingers, i have noticed that the tips of them become numb and unresponsive to commands when this is happening.
Yuck
To add weight to the idea, boiling does seem to prevent this from happening in most cases.
(i was afraid it would not go away at the time , and as such have stopped eating wild wood-loving psilocybes).
In my experience it doesn't sound/feel like strychnine poisoning, although it could be a smaller dose that what is necessary to cause spasms.
It would make sense if they were using it as a pesticide, or perhaps the mycelium is taking it or something similar up from the substrate (seeds, wood or bark containing it?), but the symptoms dont seem to match up (at least in my experience, low doses of strychnine are believed to be stimulating, and high doses are lethal)
If i was to take a stab at it, i would say it would be something similar to Botulinum toxin in small doses being present in the mushrooms, from bacteria found in the environment they grow in, perhaps -in- the basidiocarp themselves...
Given that botox is a protein and denatures at temperatures below boiling (60C), it seems like it, or some other protein would be a more likely candidate.
<3
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: Nobitte]
#15813441 - 02/15/12 11:44 AM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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In this pic of a pile of Azures you will see one on the right side
of the pile with a heavily bluing area and a cracked stem.
This one mushroom I remember looking at it thinking it was so cool an
potent but I twisted the stem and it opened to a black ooze/slime inside
the stem and it stunk. I'm not a mycologist but I'm not stupid either
and I knew it was a foreign bacteria or contamination that had gotten
into the stipe while it was growing.
Of course I did not eat this one to find out but I imagine it could
have been a bad deal if I did... Also I've seen many pictures of peoples
finds here and some of the stuff they eat just blows me away! Even when
I'm picking edibles I dont/wont eat marginal stuff. Stuff with rotten
spots or blackened parts. I'll either throw the shroom totally or cut it
and clean it to the bare bones.
With Cyans especially under brambles they always have blackened rotten
stuff on them.
I think its possible that we are talking a foreign contam causing this.
Also imagine that it causes severe gastric upset. Maybe this is also why
boiling negates the effect.
Peace,
Frizzie
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Explanation/Analysis of Paralytic P. azurescens Trips [Re: Frizzie]
#15814029 - 02/15/12 02:20 PM (3 months, 11 days ago) |
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Strange, OK, because the one patch of Ps. cyanescens that hosed me I did indeed consume as tea...
PS
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