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Invisible5-HT2A

Registered: 01/30/10
Posts: 1,794
Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups)
    #13814040 - 01/19/11 12:52 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

http://www.alternet.org/drugs/149439/are_ecigarettes_the_holy_grail_for_hopelessly_addicted_smokers?page=entire

I've tried nicotine patches, lozenges and gum, prescription drugs and hypnotherapy, and none of them are anywhere near as effective as e-cigarettes.

Technology, not social stigma, smoking bans or $12-a-pack cigarettes, may finally doom Big Tobacco's market in dealing death to tens of millions. The looming threat to the industry's bottom line is the e-cigarette, a remarkable device that simulates smoking a real cigarette so effectively that life-long smokers can switch without experiencing any cravings or symptoms of withdrawl.

Smokers don't lose any of what those old 1950s ads called “smoking satisfaction,” but they do lose the carbon monoxide, tar and some 4,000 other nasty chemicals found in cigarettes. They also lose the foul odor that stinks up their clothing and their environment, the offensive yellow stains on their teeth, the little ashes that get everywhere and the sheer joy of standing outside in the cold rain getting dirty looks from passersby while they get their fix. Theoretically, one can “smoke” e-cigarettes on airplanes and in movie theaters and restaurants without disturbing others and without creating clouds of the secondhand smoke that can harm others.

Unsurprisingly, the tobacco lobby, along with Big Pharma, which is trying to guard its share of the multi-billion dollar market for nicotine patches and drug therapies to help people quit smoking, has mounted a bruising battle to keep this technology out of the hands of American smokers.

The e-cigarette was invented in China in 2004. It's a cigarette-shaped tube that contains a rechargeable battery, a mini-vaporizer, a small reservoir, sensors and, in most cases, a light on the tip. The sensor notes when you take a drag on the tube and turns on the vaporizer, which more-or-less instantaneously turns the substances in the reservoir into a stream of visible water vapor that mimics the taste and feel of tobacco smoke. The tip glows like the end of a lit cigarette with each drag. It's infused with the taste of tobacco – or tobacco combined with other flavors for those who are into that sort of thing – and nicotine, in various doses (including none at all). The refill cartridges – which look like the butt of the cigarette--give you about the same number of drags as a pack of cigarettes, but cost around $3 each – a bit more than half the national average and a third of what a pack of smokes go for in places like New York City.

Take the word of an addict who has quit dozens of times over more than 20 years – both “cold turkey” and also with the help of nicotine patches, lozenges and gum, one prescription drug specifically for quitting smoking and two antidepressants that are also widely prescribed for that purpose, and hypnotherapy – and has always gone back to cigarettes: the switch from smoking to “vaping” is effortless.

That's because it delivers the same amount of nicotine as patches, lozenges and gum, but in inhaled form, just like a cigarette. Forget about the habit – this smoker hasn't even wanted an ordinary cigarette since getting the e-cigs a few days after Christmas.

Nicotine replacement therapies (NRT) like the patch work by giving you a dose of nicotine – the addictive agent in tobacco – so you don't bite the heads off of your loved ones while getting over the psychological habit of smoking. In theory, e-cigarettes work the opposite way – maintaining the feel of smoking while you gradually reduce the level of nicotine you consume.

The American Association of Public Health Physicians (AAPHP) says it “favors a permissive approach to e-cigarettes because the possibility exists to save the lives of four million of the eight million current adult American smokers who will otherwise die of a tobacco-related illness over the next twenty years. (PDF)”

    Conventional cigarettes account for about 80% of nicotine consumption in the United States, but more than 98% of the illness and death. This harm is not caused by the nicotine, but by toxic products of combustion. A cigarette smoker can reduce his or her risk of future tobacco-related death by 98% or better by switching to a low risk smokeless tobacco product. He or she could cut that risk by 99.9% or better by switching to a nicotine-only delivery product like one of the pharmaceutical products or e-cigarettes.

According to the AAPHP, “a smoker can secure almost all the health benefits of quitting if he or she transitions to an e-cigarette,” and, as this addict can attest, “E-cigarettes may be more acceptable to smokers than the currently available pharmaceutical alternatives.”

But while studies have been conducted on NRT – people who use it often relapse, but are nonetheless 50-70 percent more likely to kick the habit permanently – there has been little empirical research into the effects of e-cigarettes. The FDA did a small study (using 18 refill cartridges from foreign manufacturers), two studies were conducted in Europe and e-cig companies claim to have done a number of small private trials. But despite the fact that there isn't anything in e-cigarettes that isn't also found in NRT (except for the agent that makes the vapor visible, which is also used in asthma inhalers), their safety has yet to be demonstrated in any large clinical trials.

It is that uncertainty – and the fact that a handful of e-cigarette vendors make the scientifically unproven claim that their products are a smoking cessation aid (that claim requires FDA approval) – that the tobacco lobby, pharmaceutical companies and leading anti-smoking groups have seized upon in an attempt to keep e-cigs out of the market.

According to media reports, Big Tobacco lobbied not only to have e-cigs banned, but to get major online retailers like Amazon.com and eBay to stop selling them. Lobbyists for the NRT industry and anti-smoking groups have worked hard to ban e-cigs at the state level, and a number of states have introduced legislation to do just that.

On first blush, it appears that the oddest opponents of the e-cigs are the many anti-smoking groups that have come out against them, including the American Lung Association, American Cancer Society, American Heart Association and American Non-Smoker's Rights. It is strange that groups purporting to be “anti-smoking” oppose a less harmful alternative, especially for those who have proven unwilling or unable to quit.

But scratch the surface, and it becomes clear that many anti-smoking groups themselves have a conflict of interest. That conflict arises from the $206 billion tobacco settlement in 1998, which transferred a massive pile of the industry's take to non-profit anti-smoking campaigns.

The campaigns also received a reported $446 million from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation for “educating” state legislatures about the dangers of tobacco use. The foundation is the largest philanthropic organization devoted exclusively to health issues, and it does a lot of good work. But here again there is at least the appearance of a conflict of interest: the foundation was begun by the founder and CEO of the pharmaceutical giant Johnson & Johnson, with an endowment of 10 million shares of J & J stock in 1968.

Johnson & Johnson's wholly owned subsidiary, the Alza Corporation, makes Nicoderm and Nicoderm CQ – the leading brand of nicotine patches. Its 2006 acquisition of Pfizer added Nicotrol, Nicorette gum and and Commit lozenges to its stable of brands.

In 2009, the FDA took up the cause, finding that e-cigarettes “contained detectable levels of known carcinogens and toxic chemicals to which users could potentially be exposed." But as Michael Siegel, a professor at Boston University's School of Public health noted, “what the FDA did not tell the media or the public, and what the American Lung Association failed to express alarm over, is the fact that nicotine replacement products themselves have been found to have detectable levels of tobacco-specific nitrosamines... chemicals [that] are consistently carcinogenic in laboratory animals and are widely recognized as carcinogens present in tobacco products.” In other words, tobacco is legal, NRT is legal, there's no obvious reason why this new technology shouldn't be as well.

Nonetheless, the FDA ruled that e-cigarettes were “medical devices,” meaning that an exhaustive and costly testing process would be required before they could be approved for sale. But in December, a federal district court ruled against the FDA, finding that the agency has the authority to regulate e-cigs as a “tobacco product,” and not under the more stringent terms of the Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act. That means that the agency can regulate the dosages of nicotine in e-cigs and take measures to keep them out of the hands of minors, but can't effectively ban them from the marketplace.

That's where things stand, but the fight is not over. "We're gravely concerned about the implications of today's ruling," American Heart Association chief executive Nancy Brown told Dow Jones Newswire after the court's decision. "The appeals court has cleared the way for the industry to peddle these products to consumers without any scrutiny as to their safety or efficacy."

FDA spokesman Jeffrey Ventura added: "We are studying the opinion and considering next steps." But with the court having weighed in on the agency's ability to regulate e-cigs at the national level, expect the battle to get states to ban them to increase in intensity, as the anti-smoking groups and corporate lobbyists come together to protect Big Tobacco's right to kill you.

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OfflineRun
Questioning my existance
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Registered: 10/22/09
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Re: Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups) [Re: 5-HT2A]
    #13814110 - 01/19/11 01:09 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Just like the car companies patented out the eletric car and hid it away. This shit shouldnt be legal


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You, me, this point in existence is undeniably so unique, we take everything for granite ,life , comprehension, feelings, thought, so accustomed to understanding that we've lost the meaning of fully understanding who we are..... we are the extra terrestrial, we are the unknown, we are the mystical...

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Offlinesmaerd
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Re: Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups) [Re: Run]
    #13814446 - 01/19/11 02:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Electronic cigarettes actually work well. I got my moneys worth out of the one I bought. Helped me cut back a shit load.

I did end up going back to normal cigarettes but whenever I'm sick I use it.

Edited by smaerd (01/20/11 02:20 PM)

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Invisiblemaiko maiko
I can eat 50 eggs

Registered: 02/26/10
Posts: 332
Re: Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups) [Re: smaerd]
    #13815040 - 01/19/11 03:58 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

who was it that had a fit over volcanoes? i remember a while back shipments were being seized.

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Offlinebugsonwheels2
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Re: Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups) [Re: 5-HT2A]
    #13815089 - 01/19/11 04:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

i previously used blu cigarettes as a cheaper (much cheaper) was of getting nicotine in my system. then after a while i started correlating smoking and vapor cigas (are these two even related, and in what way?) i found that i could get the treat of being a slave to nicotine without the bitch of the additives, et c. pretty soon i stopped all together, and have since been happy without having a smoke to be around people, and find it no longer fit to be in essence a smoker.


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In order to form a more perfect union'
learn to trade.
raw foods. no smoke. vegan[gradient:#,#][/gradient]

"Why work on something I already know is happening?"

for some Mush Room, wiggle room free inside

Happiness and Peace come naturally to me.
Health and prosperity.
Be peace now

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OfflineSmitington
Unidentified Flying Object
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Registered: 08/10/09
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Re: Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups) [Re: bugsonwheels2]
    #13815262 - 01/19/11 04:35 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

These things sounds very promising, I just wish there was more scientific data.  I am curious what carcinogens were found in them (if they were the same kind found in patches, the article didn't really make it clear).  Nonetheless, they do seem a lot safer than cigarettes, and I'm almost considering buying one for my mom.


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Offlinellevitron
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Registered: 03/04/10
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Re: Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups) [Re: Run]
    #13816358 - 01/19/11 07:16 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Smitington said:
These things sounds very promising, I just wish there was more scientific data.  I am curious what carcinogens were found in them (if they were the same kind found in patches, the article didn't really make it clear).  Nonetheless, they do seem a lot safer than cigarettes, and I'm almost considering buying one for my mom.




Why do you think that? Psycho! :wink:


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:cheerup:

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OfflineManianFH
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Re: Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups) [Re: llevitron]
    #13817778 - 01/19/11 10:56 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

im using one right now. I never had a problem quitting smoking, however going to vegas always motivated me to smoke again, so I bought the ego510. These things are so fucking awesome, I know 100% that I will never touch a real cigarette again.

Nicotine is bad for you, that is known, but not nearly as bad as smoke. I haven't hacked up blood from vaporizing, and I can still run a mile after puffing on one all day long. The liquid is not 1/2 as expensive as normal cigarettes as the article states, but more like 1/5th as expensive.


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notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."

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InvisibleLongStrangeTrip
Deadhead


Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 5,382
Re: Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups) [Re: Smitington]
    #13818848 - 01/20/11 05:34 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Smitington said:
These things sounds very promising, I just wish there was more scientific data.  I am curious what carcinogens were found in them (if they were the same kind found in patches, the article didn't really make it clear).  Nonetheless, they do seem a lot safer than cigarettes, and I'm almost considering buying one for my mom.





Like the article said, the only active chemical in e-cig liquid is nicotine, not the other over 4000 chems that are present in tobacco treated by big T companies. E-liquid is literally water, glycerin, nicotine, and flavoring.

They are 100% safer. I have been using this one for a long time and it is the fucking shit. Its a god damned Greek tragedy that these companies are doing this. Its absolutely disgusting.

JOYE 510

*edit  You don't need a scientific study to understand how much better it is for you...go from cigs to an e-cig for 1 week, and come back; I bet any amount of money you no longer question their saftey. As a smoker, you feel, in all ways, physically, as if you have stopped smoking 100%.


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Nothing I say or do is factual; every single thing I write is a work of fiction. Got no idea what I'm talking about here~

"Once in awhile, you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right"~  (Grateful Dead)

"o puer, qui omnia nomini debes"; "You, boy, who owe's everything to a name"~ Mark Anthony

"Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum."; "Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system."~ Cicero


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,377
Re: Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups) [Re: LongStrangeTrip]
    #13819193 - 01/20/11 08:35 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

There are probably dozens of carcinogenic compounds that you cannot necessarily "feel" going into you.

There are very few studies examining the ingredients of e-cigs, and those that are published, have already found their "ingredients" to be contaminated with other things.

At the moment, its just as likely that e-cigs could contain an unknown carcinogen that is MORE toxic than smoked tobacco.  IMO, it's not wise to assume the safety of an unknown, untested device imported from China based on how you "feel".


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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InvisibleLongStrangeTrip
Deadhead


Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 5,382
Re: Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups) [Re: badchad]
    #13819553 - 01/20/11 10:16 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
There are probably dozens of carcinogenic compounds that you cannot necessarily "feel" going into you.

There are very few studies examining the ingredients of e-cigs, and those that are published, have already found their "ingredients" to be contaminated with other things.

At the moment, its just as likely that e-cigs could contain an unknown carcinogen that is MORE toxic than smoked tobacco.  IMO, it's not wise to assume the safety of an unknown, untested device imported from China based on how you "feel".





I'm not "assuming" safety, I am telling you what someone who went from BEING a smoker to an e-cig smoker has EXPERIENCED. What, first hand experience is not good enough for you?

I smoked for almost ten years, and am an asthmatic; so smoking would make me "weezy", always using an inhaler. I would wake up in the mornings with lots of "junk" in my throat, coughing it up like crazy. I had stopped smoking in the past, for a period of a few months, and that stuff would go away. Using the e-cig does the same; clears up my lungs, stops the weezy-ness, stops shit from building up until the morning, ect ect.

I would love to see your "studies" on the "many" ingredients of e-cig liquid, seeing as how that is untrue. what, you think manufacturers would just "insert" carcinogenic material? Like I said, MY bottles have 4 ingredients listed....

Think about the difference between smoking cannabis and VAPORIZING cannabis, because this is the EXACT same thing; except you are not vaporizing the actual plant matter, just the active chem itself. Apply the benefits of vaporizing over smoking.

Like I said, I don't need ANOTHER scientific study to tell me that vaporizing is safer than smoking; give me a break.


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Nothing I say or do is factual; every single thing I write is a work of fiction. Got no idea what I'm talking about here~

"Once in awhile, you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right"~  (Grateful Dead)

"o puer, qui omnia nomini debes"; "You, boy, who owe's everything to a name"~ Mark Anthony

"Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum."; "Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system."~ Cicero


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InvisibleLongStrangeTrip
Deadhead


Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 5,382
Re: Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups) [Re: LongStrangeTrip]
    #13819624 - 01/20/11 10:35 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"But while studies have been conducted on NRT – people who use it often relapse, but are nonetheless 50-70 percent more likely to kick the habit permanently – there has been little empirical research into the effects of e-cigarettes. The FDA did a small study (using 18 refill cartridges from foreign manufacturers), two studies were conducted in Europe and e-cig companies claim to have done a number of small private trials. But despite the fact that there isn't anything in e-cigarettes that isn't also found in NRT (except for the agent that makes the vapor visible, which is also used in asthma inhalers), their safety has yet to be demonstrated in any large clinical trials."

Well maybe your right then badchad, maybe there ARE other chems in e-cig liquid; but I bet you money that it is not half as bad as the 4000 inactive chems, aside from nicotine, in cigarette smoke. couple that idea with 2 different people desperatly trying to relay experience (me and the author; experience over theory) over the talking points of the industries that fear the success of e-cigs, and you have something other than bs to think about :smile:


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Nothing I say or do is factual; every single thing I write is a work of fiction. Got no idea what I'm talking about here~

"Once in awhile, you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right"~  (Grateful Dead)

"o puer, qui omnia nomini debes"; "You, boy, who owe's everything to a name"~ Mark Anthony

"Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum."; "Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system."~ Cicero


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Offlinehenk600
Medical cannabis user
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Re: Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups) [Re: LongStrangeTrip]
    #13819653 - 01/20/11 10:44 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I really need nicotine to calm me over time.
I wish i could stop but it is to addictive.
Better smoke cannabis time to time to calm and leave the nicotine.
Cannabis is good for the health and cigarettes are deadly.

I tried many drugs and builded the use of it of correctly,
but the cigarettes is the most hardest to stop with.
and believe me i want to stop smoke tabacco,i did that with several other hard drugs but the tabaccos is an real addictive drug.

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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,377
Re: Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups) [Re: henk600]
    #13819797 - 01/20/11 11:14 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LongStrangeTrip said:
Like I said, I don't need ANOTHER scientific study to tell me that vaporizing is safer than smoking; give me a break.




The fact remains:  There could be completely unknown chemicals in e-cigarettes.  These could be tasteless, carcinogenic chemicals.  Thus, someone could incorrectly assume "since my lungs are clear and my asthma is gone, I must be healthy."  Meanwhile, it's entirely possible you are inhaling cancerous materials that will leave your lungs free and clear, but kill you nonetheless.

The New york times published an article on toxins found in e-cigarretes.

Other peer-reviewed studies like this one. have also identified contaminants.

These contaminants are entirely different than those found in NRT and tobacco.  There is no telling what the health consequences are.

The assumption that vaporized = safe is ridiculous.  The assumption that inhaling uncharacterized and unknown chemicals is safe is equally silly.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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InvisibleLongStrangeTrip
Deadhead


Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 5,382
Re: Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups) [Re: badchad]
    #13820362 - 01/20/11 01:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
Quote:

LongStrangeTrip said:
Like I said, I don't need ANOTHER scientific study to tell me that vaporizing is safer than smoking; give me a break.




The fact remains:  There could be completely unknown chemicals in e-cigarettes.  These could be tasteless, carcinogenic chemicals.  Thus, someone could incorrectly assume "since my lungs are clear and my asthma is gone, I must be healthy."  Meanwhile, it's entirely possible you are inhaling cancerous materials that will leave your lungs free and clear, but kill you nonetheless.

The New york times published an article on toxins found in e-cigarretes.

Other peer-reviewed studies like this one. have also identified contaminants.

These contaminants are entirely different than those found in NRT and tobacco.  There is no telling what the health consequences are.

The assumption that vaporized = safe is ridiculous.  The assumption that inhaling uncharacterized and unknown chemicals is safe is equally silly.





Well thank you for the information, I am certainly going to give it a read. Maybe you are right, but I still as least stand by what it is I can speak to, mainly my experience.

Its always good to question your assumptions :smile:


--------------------
Nothing I say or do is factual; every single thing I write is a work of fiction. Got no idea what I'm talking about here~

"Once in awhile, you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right"~  (Grateful Dead)

"o puer, qui omnia nomini debes"; "You, boy, who owe's everything to a name"~ Mark Anthony

"Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum."; "Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system."~ Cicero


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,377
Re: Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups) [Re: LongStrangeTrip]
    #13820419 - 01/20/11 01:22 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Although it does appear that if purified nicotine is the only ingredient, at the moment, e-cigs would seem to be much safer.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
Mycologist
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Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,358
Last seen: 7 days, 20 hours
Re: Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups) [Re: badchad]
    #13820909 - 01/20/11 02:35 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
Although it does appear that if purified nicotine is the only ingredient, at the moment, e-cigs would seem to be much safer.





I would take unknown chemicals over known carcinogens any day.

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InvisibleLongStrangeTrip
Deadhead


Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 5,382
Re: Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #13821799 - 01/20/11 05:10 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

badchad said:
Although it does appear that if purified nicotine is the only ingredient, at the moment, e-cigs would seem to be much safer.





I would take unknown chemicals over known carcinogens any day.





:peace::super:


--------------------
Nothing I say or do is factual; every single thing I write is a work of fiction. Got no idea what I'm talking about here~

"Once in awhile, you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right"~  (Grateful Dead)

"o puer, qui omnia nomini debes"; "You, boy, who owe's everything to a name"~ Mark Anthony

"Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum."; "Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system."~ Cicero


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Offlinebugsonwheels2
tarzan
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Re: Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups) [Re: LongStrangeTrip]
    #13825379 - 01/21/11 11:03 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

i don't work for cigarette, companies, etc. it got me to stop smoking, i want to give them to people as gifts. tey are a great experience. i can account for smokers not caring cuz they enjoy the smoke, etc., but the real reason is to smoke without the terrib. side effects. and this is what the vapor cigs do. nicotine in any form is harmful though. it constricts blood vessels, squeezes them and they are sorta delicate ya know?


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In order to form a more perfect union'
learn to trade.
raw foods. no smoke. vegan[gradient:#,#][/gradient]

"Why work on something I already know is happening?"

for some Mush Room, wiggle room free inside

Happiness and Peace come naturally to me.
Health and prosperity.
Be peace now

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Offlineblujay
pass it b*ch!
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Re: Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups) [Re: badchad]
    #13830691 - 01/22/11 09:35 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
There are probably dozens of carcinogenic compounds that you cannot necessarily "feel" going into you.

There are very few studies examining the ingredients of e-cigs, and those that are published, have already found their "ingredients" to be contaminated with other things.

At the moment, its just as likely that e-cigs could contain an unknown carcinogen that is MORE toxic than smoked tobacco.  IMO, it's not wise to assume the safety of an unknown, untested device imported from China based on how you "feel".




This is DUMB. You can take the e-liquid, mail it off to a lab and pay to have it mass-specced if you want, but there aren't secret "mystery ingredients" in it. Why the fuck would there be? All that would do is cut into the nic-liquid manufacturer's bottom line.

EDIT:

One more industry that needs regulation. No doubt some of the production isn't clean. But does that mean we should just ban it? Damnit!


--------------------

wat man rly

Edited by blujay (01/22/11 09:38 AM)

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OfflineNorthofHeaven
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Re: Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups) [Re: blujay]
    #13830700 - 01/22/11 09:40 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

cool post to see up here, I just ordered the e-cigarettes. I pray to the holy mushroom they work.

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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,377
Re: Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups) [Re: blujay]
    #13830896 - 01/22/11 10:34 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

blujay said:
This is DUMB. You can take the e-liquid, mail it off to a lab and pay to have it mass-specced if you want, but there aren't secret "mystery ingredients" in it. Why the fuck would there be? All that would do is cut into the nic-liquid manufacturer's bottom line.

EDIT:

One more industry that needs regulation. No doubt some of the production isn't clean. But does that mean we should just ban it? Damnit!




You may think it's DUMB, but there are existing data that have already identified contaminants.  Regulating an industry is much different than an outright ban.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Offlineblujay
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Re: Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups) [Re: badchad]
    #13831559 - 01/22/11 01:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
Quote:

blujay said:
This is DUMB. You can take the e-liquid, mail it off to a lab and pay to have it mass-specced if you want, but there aren't secret "mystery ingredients" in it. Why the fuck would there be? All that would do is cut into the nic-liquid manufacturer's bottom line.

EDIT:

One more industry that needs regulation. No doubt some of the production isn't clean. But does that mean we should just ban it? Damnit!




You may think it's DUMB, but there are existing data that have already identified contaminants.  Regulating an industry is much different than an outright ban.




So because some producers (possibly from another country e.g, china, where there were incidences of still putting lead in paint all the way up to the 2000's due to lack of regulation) are making a product with contaminants, they all must be, and it is impossible for such a product to exist without them.

You're molasses running uphill. In theory all an atomizer feeds you is what you put into it. You must not understand how an atomizer works.


--------------------

wat man rly

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Invisiblebadchad
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Posts: 13,377
Re: Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups) [Re: blujay]
    #13832178 - 01/22/11 03:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

blujay said:
So because some producers (possibly from another country e.g, china, where there were incidences of still putting lead in paint all the way up to the 2000's due to lack of regulation) are making a product with contaminants, they all must be, and it is impossible for such a product to exist without them.

You're molasses running uphill. In theory all an atomizer feeds you is what you put into it. You must not understand how an atomizer works.




No.  It's not because a few Chinese manufacturers have had contaminants.  It's because demonstrating purity and safety is federal law, and how the drug approval process works.

This is basic regulatory policy.  Drug approval 101.

Any IND or NDA submitted must contain a chemistry section where all aspects of manufacture and synthesis are detailed.  Academic investigators and pharmaceutical manufacturers alike, need to provide this information for review and document all steps in the manufacturing process.

At any point thereafter, manufacturing inspections can occur. 

You must not understand how to submit an IND, NDA, or bring a drug to market.  You can't just "promise" that your atomizer only contains certain things.  You have to prove it.

I never said anything was impossible.  It just hasn't been demonstrated.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Offlineblujay
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Re: Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups) [Re: badchad]
    #13832508 - 01/22/11 04:49 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
Quote:

blujay said:
So because some producers (possibly from another country e.g, china, where there were incidences of still putting lead in paint all the way up to the 2000's due to lack of regulation) are making a product with contaminants, they all must be, and it is impossible for such a product to exist without them.

You're molasses running uphill. In theory all an atomizer feeds you is what you put into it. You must not understand how an atomizer works.




No.  It's not because a few Chinese manufacturers have had contaminants.  It's because demonstrating purity and safety is federal law, and how the drug approval process works.

This is basic regulatory policy.  Drug approval 101.

Any IND or NDA submitted must contain a chemistry section where all aspects of manufacture and synthesis are detailed.  Academic investigators and pharmaceutical manufacturers alike, need to provide this information for review and document all steps in the manufacturing process.

At any point thereafter, manufacturing inspections can occur. 

You must not understand how to submit an IND, NDA, or bring a drug to market.  You can't just "promise" that your atomizer only contains certain things.  You have to prove it.

I never said anything was impossible.  It just hasn't been demonstrated.




You think Nicotine is a new drug?

You think the Volcano, Medi-Plus, iOlite, etc. Went through all that?


--------------------

wat man rly

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Invisiblebadchad
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Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,377
Re: Are E-Cigarettes the Holy Grail for Hopelessly Addicted Smokers? (Big Tobacco/Pharma/Medical Groups) [Re: blujay]
    #13832601 - 01/22/11 05:06 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

It's likely they were approved as devices, not drug products.

For the few academic studies done with the volcano, yes.  They should have obtained an IND to do them.  In the IND they would have had to submit all the (HPLC) data indicating that the THC used was pure, and then demonstrate that it was  NOT changed by the vaporization process, and provide information that nothing "leeched" out from the bag when collected.

And no, nicotine is not a new drug.  The same purity info is needed.  But as a generic, no safety and efficacy info is needed. 


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

Edited by badchad (01/22/11 05:07 PM)

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